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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 19, 2019 - 01:02pm PT
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I like that Ed brought up the word, homunculus. It seems to me that this is what the non-scientists on this thread believe in. They can't get their heads around the idea of mind evolving from and consisting of parts. In the end, mind emerges from molecules. Even more fundamental than brain and memory are molecules.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 01:08pm PT
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If there were a world(s) beyond the one we know then it should follow that such a set of operating principles responsible for mediating something like an actual energy transfer interface between both, or many such worlds,, would take into account such incidentals as cultural or language differences in order to convey critical information.
That could be true but to me it borders on special pleading. If there are experiences beyond death I would not presume to guess at the operating principles. We should look carefully at what we can learn about this world and let other worlds wait until we get there. My opinion.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 19, 2019 - 01:14pm PT
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jstan: Better hurry up and reach a conclusion folks.
I'd say that would be a mistake. Hurrying rarely helps any complex activity. (See, "The Mythical Man Month" by Brooks.) As for the need to come to conclusions, I suggest there are certain efforts that closure kills--especially when growth or development is involved.
What's the conclusion of your life?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 01:20pm PT
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What's the conclusion of your life?
Ha ha! What do you mean, Mike? Or do you not care what you say and what it means?
And where is your sense of humor? John Stannard has a good one.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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May 19, 2019 - 01:22pm PT
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Mike L, putting together a project today I ran across a quote from the climber, Bruce Bindner, part of the Climb the Wyde with Pride group.
"Climbing for some is not a hobby, but a way of life, a part of a center.
Or a way to let go of the center and just be. For some climbing shows us
not only how small and insignificant we are, but also how rare and
precious." Bruce Bindner, 1955-2009
I like that phrase, "just be". For me it means to release the mind from all the myriad "requirements" of a life and learn to be. Be, a two letter word that holds the ticket to life. And I don't mean to sit in a lotus position and chant. Be contains the key to ones individual universe.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2019 - 01:26pm PT
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Even more fundamental than brain and memory are molecules.
More fundamental than molecules are particles, and more fundamental than those are quarks, and more fundamental than those are void, out of which all of these things spring. Few acknowledge that all parts emerged from nothing at all. But wait, there's unmanifested potential in that their void. And there's no such "thing" as a "wave," which is a mathematical representation of ... what? Collective motion? Propagation of energy? The woo it seems is the idea that stuff is generated from stuff by way of a timebound process.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 19, 2019 - 01:37pm PT
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That could be true but to me it borders on special pleading. If there are experiences beyond death I would not presume to guess at the operating principles. We should look carefully at what we can learn about this world and let other worlds wait until we get there. My opinion.
Well, that approach might work-- if you could ultimately pull it off.
The frontiers of knowing are often pushed forward by presuming to guess. A lot of physicists are sitting around presuming to guess about dark matter, for instance. Humans will always do this. No amount of common sense expressed complacently or otherwise will ever remedy certain endeavors, or succeed in proscribing their current boundaries.
BTW, what is "special pleading"?
At this time I'd like to advance the "What is Mind?" as being, in part, what we are doing right now.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 01:43pm PT
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more fundamental than those are void, out of which all of these things spring.
Our conclusion: Mind is void.
Or springs from it, anyway.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 01:47pm PT
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Well, that approach might work-- if you could ultimately pull it off.
I can pull off endeavours that require me to do nothing with enviable ease. Whether it is to just be or to not wonder about the afterlife, easy-peasy. It's a bit harder to do something but I can manage that, too, sometimes.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 19, 2019 - 01:50pm PT
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I can pull off endeavours that require me to do nothing with enviable ease. Whether it is to just be or to not wonder about the afterlife, easy-peasy. It's a bit harder to do something but I can manage that, too, sometimes.
I can see exactly why you have been attracted to the question: What is Mind?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 19, 2019 - 02:17pm PT
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" and more fundamental than those are void, out of which all of these things spring"
Is there more than one void? How do you know the void is empty? But nice poetic touch, like the Old Testament.
You guys need to consider whether to continue this discussion on another site or let it go. Not FB, IMO. (I've started reacquainting myself with MP, but the atmosphere there may not be the best for old farts.)
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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May 19, 2019 - 02:20pm PT
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Once someone experiences contact with the "other" world (and I don't mean any kind of drug use being involved) they realize that the question "what is mind" is un-answerable in the limited language of human material world (science), therefore pointless.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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May 19, 2019 - 02:25pm PT
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formerclimber, your words "limited language of human material world" strike a deep cord. If I had a genie wish it would be to deepen and extend the words we have access to. It does limit us so.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 19, 2019 - 02:45pm PT
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Is there more than one void?
First there's the void, then there's the universe that contains the void, then there's the universe that contains both the void and the universe that contains the void (in that order). If we keep going like this, we get the Von Neumann ordinals!
It's been great shooting the bull with you Mr. Gill! And MH2 and Ed and Mike L. and all the rest. Of course, the whole thing never would have existed without Largo. May he keep searching for what he doesn't want answered!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 09:23pm PT
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If we keep going like this, we get the Von Neuman ordinals!
Marvelous! Keep going!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 09:25pm PT
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Thanks for your patience and great uncommon sense, Jim.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2019 - 09:42pm PT
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If I had a genie wish it would be to deepen and extend the words we have access to
Ah, but a man's (or a woman's) reach should exceed his or her grasp, or what's a heaven for?
Remember that it isn't the words alone but the listener also that limit us.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43745/andrea-del-sarto
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 20, 2019 - 06:22am PT
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MH2: I can pull off endeavors that require me to do nothing with enviable ease.
You're special.
Most people who've studied the notion argue that doing nothing is quite difficult to experience and "achieve." The whole idea of achievement in the conversation is deeply problematical. (See, "Trying Not to Try: Ancient China, Modern Science, and the Power of Spontaneity, by Slingerland.)
You could also ask someone who's experienced in meditation about that idea. In fact, it might be proper to respond to your post with, "It's not important."
Be well.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 20, 2019 - 06:31am PT
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Lynne: If I had a genie wish it would be to deepen and extend the words we have access to. It does limit us so.
We do have access to those capabilities, Lynne, I'd say. It's only when one believes in and expects language to be literal that the wishes tend to show up. When language (and conversations) are seen simply as metaphorical, then all sorts of things can be talked about and expressed, just as the post above regarding "doing nothing." We can explore any topic with conversations and dialogue, but to do so we have to let go of "really knowing what we're talking about" as definitive objects. More closure most of the time doesn't help a thing other than one's own sense of surety.
And yes, I'm just talking too.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 20, 2019 - 06:53am PT
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It strikes me that Mh2 did not actually read those articles, having written them off beforehand. They were full of interesting information being used to prevent brain damage in people who are resuscitated after being clinically dead. NDE's were only part of what those articles were about. A lot of the discussion was about how to even define death. Traditionally it has been when the heart and breath stopped. Then we added brain waves as a measure.
Now it turns out that some chemical process (yes those molecules) continue on for some moments or hours or even days in some cases. Immediately I thought of the Tibetan belief of leaving a body undisturbed for 3 days after cessation of breath for just that reason. If you truly believe that you are only molecules, then perhaps you are not dead until all molecular function including stem cells in the body cease measurable activity? Read the articles before making up your mind if you want to learn about the cutting edge research by the experts on death, brain death, bodily chemical death, recuscitation, memory and incidentally NDE's.
As for language being a poor vehicle for expressing certain ideas, that depends on the language. Each language reflects its culture and ours has chosen to concentrate on the material. We even use industrial mechanical terms for things like sex. As for philosophy, forget it. If you want to talk about that or stages of mental development, Sanskrit or Tibetan and its dialects like Sherpa are the languages for that. Then, when speakers of those languages wish to go the other way, they simply switch languages. I just spent a weekend with Sherpa friends who were constantly switching between Sherpa and Nepali depending on whether the conversation was about emotions and philosophy or practical matters of the material world. Monolingual Americans don't have that advantage.
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