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Trump
climber
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I do think that the world is perfect but that humans are far from it.
Me, I like to think that I’m out-of-this-worldly. Oh hell, I guess I like to think that I think anyway.
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WBraun
climber
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The brainwashed gross materialists scientists and their mental speculations that dead matter creates life is the st00pidest thing ever.
There is zero evidence.
Modern science still has zero clue what life actually is.
All while they make ridiculous claims with no real evidence from fools like Darwin who only studied dead matter ....
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WBraun
climber
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You really are an idiot .....
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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When I see Largo say, "That's only objective processing," or MikeL say, "That's only an interpretation," I hear dogma.
Well, they certainly seem confident in their views. I still don't understand that one gives up everything to attain truth, yet truth doesn't exist. A Zen koan? I'm stuck in objective processing.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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The world is not perfect as it is, nor humans, but to be human means to ask the meaning of it all
I’ve shifted from asking the meaning of it all (subjective) to the purpose (objective). Things are clearer and make more sense that way IMO.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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At last year's Cape May Audubon Autumn Festival my sisters and cousin and friend and I toured with Richard Crossley as guide.
Richard Crossley is an internationally acclaimed birder and photographer who has been birding since age 7 and who, by age 21, had hitchhiked more than 100,000 miles chasing birds across his native Britain and Europe.
He was a bit older when we went around Cape May with him. He has a great deal of experience identifying birds in the field and watching their behavior. When he introduced himself he told us, "You will ask me many questions. My invariable answer will be,'I don't know'."
His point was that he preferred to have us learn for ourselves rather than be told by an expert.
(There is also an English footballer by the same name.)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jan: I am intrigued by the Tibetan tulkus as they seem to manage both, being highly accomplished and efficient in the material world and yet not stuck in it either.
The little unpaid work I did for the FPMT was to help the Bay Area centers (some not much more than a few people meeting regularly at a locale) manage continuity and burn-out of its directors. I would interview key participants with open-ended questions about what was good, not working so well, what they thought the issues were, what could be better, how well management was doing, etc. There were about 8-10 questions in the interviews. Let's say I talked to 25-40 people, categorized the responses, run cluster analysis to see what issues hung together (connections), and then look for underlying issues driving the symptoms--positive and negative. There was nothing sophisticated about the research, just a lot of travel, meetings, note-taking, categorizing, and noting frequencies. After a while, issues began to order themselves, and for a person with my background and training, notions would begin to suggest themselves--basically Management 101 stuff. I would write up a 15-30 page report in such studies, and give it to leadership. (I used to do this research for mid-sized companies in industry.)
My report for the FPMT claimed that the choices of directors was problematical. Directors did not have backgrounds that suited their responsibilities, and they almost always left after their 3-year promise to serve. That led to discontinuity issues administratively: each director would tend to recreate the wheel, and there were few systems and structures that would endure. My report suggested that director selection, training, and retention needed more consideration.
I later was told that Lama Zopa (spiritual leader of FPMT--160 dharma centers around the world) chose directors in a spiritual way. He would perform a "mo," which allowed him to look at the karma of a prospective director to determine if a prospective director's karma would best be served by the position under consideration. It might be obvious to say that my education and experience in management took a different view of selection, training, development, and retention of key leadership positions in organizations. At first I was flabbergasted.
I can't say that Lama Zopa's method was wrong. Who really knows how things work? No one can tell if the young girl they save from drowning will be the next Albert Sshweitzer or Adolf Hitler.
Most of my life these days feels like I'm cautiously feeling my way in the dark.
If it provides *any* insight, the pure devotion and love that all FPMT personnel feel towards Zopa (and his mentor, Lama Yeshe, who is long past) is more than palpable; it seems concrete and inspiring. I found myself tearing up with immense joy and gratitude beyond words more than once.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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To me the big difference is between Lama Yeshe (enlightened for sure) and Lama Zopa (either there or close to it) and the American directors who have only encountered Buddhism most likely, in this lifetime.
One of the problems various eastern spiritual leaders have had in the U.S. (other than going over board when encountering the temptations and freedoms we have here, (usually concerning sex) is overestimating the abilities of their American practitioners or in this case, simply having to work with what they've got. Organization is not so important in slow moving societies like India and Tibet so it's importance in America was probably underestimated. In the large monastic institutions in Tibet, spiritual directors were completely separate from administrators and that would have been a good idea here also if there had been that many volunteers available.
One thing almost all of them have learned is that Americans can have bang up spiritual experiences yet because they lack the support of a society and culture imbued with these and with Buddhist or Hindu ethics, often don't develop beyond those experiences. Experiences plus a scientific education plus an emphasis on individualism don't necessarily co-relate with ethical behavior (as we both know from academia). Hence the emphasis nowadays on completing the basic ethical principles first before the experiences.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Thanks John.
Lama Yeshe was amazing. He escaped a medieval type existence in Tibet with no running water, heat, electricity, wheeled vehicles etc. and ended up in Kathmandu during the height of the hippies who had no idea that he had been surrounded by courtiers who catered to his every whim in Tibet. He used to sleep on the floors of cheap flophouses with them and in the back seats of their cars, all the while explaining Dharma in broken English. Until he died, he spoke English with hippie jargon which amused and delighted. Later when some of his hippie followers found out who he really was and his status in the Tibetan Buddhist world they were embarrassed not to have shown him more respect, but he just laughed and talked about impermanence. While on a visit to Australia, he was taken to a night club and ever after his term for wasting time was "nightclubbing". When taken to the beach, his only comment was that the women looked better in small bathing suits than the men.
Lama Zopa had a more conventional life. He was born across the mountains from the village I studied and spent part of his childhood there. Consequently, all the boys from my village who become monks have studied at his establishment even though they are from a different sect of Buddhism. Morgan Freeman has interviewed one of these young monks who just received his Ph.D. in Buddhist studies from a monastic university in India. It's part of Freeman's tv series on the Search for God. Mainly they talked about - what else -compassion.
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Trump
climber
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Good and bad and more and better and now onto the “beyond” those experiences.
We can make up whatever relative beliefs we prefer, and make up what’s before and what’s beyond, what’s more and what’s less, what’s good and what’s bad, but we’re still making it up. And we’re making it up for self-serving reasons of our own.
More? Ok. Astounding? Ok. Beyond? Ok. We know what’s perfect better than reality knows what’s perfect? Ok. If we say so. And we do say so, a lot, over and over, until we believe ourselves.
How odd. I see it happen all the time - humans thinking like humans - and yet I’m still able to believe that it’s odd, and that it’s reasonable for me to believe it’s odd. I’m still able to believe that my consciousness of the way things are is more accurate than the way things are.
And I’m so confident of that that I’m willing to risk my life on it, over and over, every day.
And that’s our consciousness that we use to accurately perceive and interpret reality. Ok. Seems to be working so far.
If you’re white, it might be really hard for you to see your white privilege. If you’re human, there might be some things about yourself that you’re better off never seeing. We see things the way we see things because seeing them that way works to our advantage.
But if like Feynman you look at the tiny little discrepancies in our thinking, it might be that they don’t match the way we interpret our broader right righteous beliefs and behaviors working. If you look at eg the tiny little skin color biased discrepancies in our beliefs and behaviors, they might not match the bigger picture right righteousness of our perceived selves.
It might be better to not notice. And maybe even just critical to not notice some more important self serving aspects of our consciousness.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jan,
It's interesting you say Yeshe was liberated. My take on Yeshe's teaching was that his expressions were quite modern (hippie'ism notwithstanding), and wonderful. His writings seem completely psychological to me more than any other writer in the Buddhist tradition. HHDL must have known that Yeshe would connect to those new-age enthusiasts on the West Coast when he gave him and Zopa leave to the West Coast. Yeshe's teachings impressed me; but more, his laugh and smiles were totally infectious. They bleed through his writings. Zopa seems different, much more traditional as you point out.
Therein rises a puzzle for seekers and those who are curious about symbolic meaning systems. We might assume that both Lamas told the truth as they best knew (and could express) it. Yeshe told it using modernisms, while Zopa tells it using more archaic symbolism. Is one more right, accurate, or complete than the other?
Scholars argue that ritual and symbolism are more prevalent and central in more primitive societies because there appears to be more commitment (associations) to community organization; members are seen more as appendages to societal objectives (on a smaller scale). In modern society, individuals are seen as more autonomous, independent, and capable to make their own decisions--hence less need for the guidance of rituals. Moderns still employ ritual in everyday life, but the imputed meaning and importance of ritual appears less obvious, and less sacrosanct. If I shake hands using my left hand due to a minor medical issue, no one takes umbrage.
We moderns still observe rituals of all sorts (e.g., consider eating mannerisms), but we're not exactly aware of them or sure why they exist. Rituals, ceremonies, celebrations, symbolic icons, etc. are still very much a part of our lives these days, but not so nearly sacred as they were for more primitive (tribal) societies. Today we may be less consciously aware of what we observe and follow in our daily lives, in deference to more modern technical values and practices.
Herein also lies the activities and training of mind. Every time we follow some societal or psychological practice because it is a practice, we are being ritualistic, archaic, and symbolic. Would that indicate a lack of awareness of being and mind? Are unmindful ritualistic practices an indication of a lesser awareness of being?
(BTW, scholars have argued more than once that table manners of a culture are most telling indications of civility and awareness. Ha! The Belgians and Dutch must be one of the most advanced societies on the face of the planet. They handle knives, forks, and spoons like surgical instruments.)
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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It's up-talking that drives me to annoyance-- especially when uttered by older women trying to sound much younger-- such as the accuser in the dreadful Senate confirmation hearings last year.
A politically liberal acquaintance of mine guessed this woman to have a credible story until he heard her speak, at which time he instantly thought her to be lying, much to his political chagrin. When I asked him why, he complacently replied,and I paraphrase: " No 50 year old from academia would ever speak like an 18 year old from the San Fernando Valley. She clearly is trying overly hard to sound much younger and therefore more vulnerable and victimized."
Be that as it may, the accuser could not quite pull it off.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_rising_terminal
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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In the beginning there was a wood block and the wood block was contented.
It wasn’t very long before people had learned to carve many things from the wood block---a cup, a plate, a bowel, a spoon, a ball, a toy boat, a ring, a wheel, a box, a board and so forth.
Before long, each person that had made something from the wood block had more than enough money, from selling their things, to be very comfortable.
But it wasn’t very long after that that they became bored with their very comfortable life and started to squabble and bicker among themselves, saying to each other, what I have made is more important than what you have made.
The wood block overheard this and was sad. When people were struggling to survive they did not have so much time for quarreling. Now that they have more than enough, they fight and argue even more--- they blame each other for their own unhappiness.
The wood block started to feel like a block head. He asked himself, am I part of the problem or part of the solution?
Then, after awhile, the wood block decided, I am a wood block.
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WBraun
climber
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No ....
In the beginning, you rebelled and then got sent to the material world to try and enjoy independently.
Independently is impossible to do.
But due to st00pidness of becoming materially conditioned, you dreamed it was possible.
And there you are st00pidly dreaming you actually are the doer .....
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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"It's up-talking that drives me to annoyance"
Makes every sentence sound like a question. Irritating.
"In the beginning there was a wood block"
It only appears there was, since mind creates reality according to some.
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WBraun
climber
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Gross materialists busy getting brainwashed.
Just wait till 5G is everywhere and then the gross materialist will be weaponized zombies .....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think that there's a lot of focus on how women sound when they talk.
On the one hand that is great news, women are getting the opportunities to talk more, publicly, on a whole host of things that were once the exclusive reserve of men, including testifying in front of Congress, but also being in Congress.
Unfortunately, men have grown used to the way men talk, and even more, the actual technology used to amplify the speech is optimized to make men's speech sound "good," women have quite different range of speech and different patterns of speech, the technology is not optimized for this, nor is there any attempt to accommodate it. As such, many men criticize the form of women's speech, rather than the content (which they may not be paying attention to, distracted by the different voices they are hearing).
There are a lot of annoying speech habits that men have, but apparently these are not so publicly criticized. Volcal-fry is not specific to women, men also exhibit it, but there doesn't seem to be any discussion about that.
I wonder why.
Up-talk seems to be a prominent speech pattern in Canada, but nobody's annoyed by it, eh.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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"Up-talk seems to be a prominent speech pattern in Canada"
Then I ain't goin' up there?
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