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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Good questions, Jan. Healyje argued that religion was based on "fear", but I think that's just plain wrong. Anyways, your questions are broader than the typical (and often shallow) "religion vs science" debate. Let's see if it generates any interesting replies. On the other hand, when it comes to rejecting vaccines, I would say those people are making a mistake
I have to admit, I find myself agreeing much more with Ed than with Mike L, especially when Mike L affects a total disbelief in the possibility that human beings can construct any kind of objective knowledge. If he really held that kind of disbelief, I sure as hell would never climb with him, or even sit in a car he was driving (and I would recommend that nobody else did either). I mean, why should I worry about threading my Grigri correctly if it's all just social convention and it doesn't have anything to do with a real world where a Grigri works much better when it's threaded correctly.
Still, I think Mike L makes some interesting points, like when he says on this page: "Widely accepted ideas” (as you put it) would refer to a specialized community of narrow scientists, to use your words."
There seems to be something implicit in Ed's defense of our own form of institutionalized science that suggests, to the extent "What is Mind?" is a meaningful question, (e.g. maybe it should be replaced with questions like "how do human beings learn?" or "why do human beings behave the way they do?"), the "explanations" should come from scientific experts working in the field. Everything else is bullsh#t. One potential problem with this "solution" is: where does it leave the vast majority of human beings who can't even understand the language of the explanation? Will they be reduced to cheerleaders, sitting on the side, shaking their pom-poms every time a new article gets published in a scientific journal? Or maybe try to learn to reproduce the watered-down explanations of the explanations in the more popular forms of media? (I've seen some of the problems associated with attempts to reproduce a copy of a copy, in this very thread). I'm not sure the vast majority of people will find either of the roles I've mentioned to be very acceptable.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Ed: let me press you, are you saying it is not possible for humans to do science, per science's stated goals?
I am sincerely sorry if that is what you read or hear from me. My intention is completely opposite of that. I’m occasionally (and perhaps very poorly) attempting to make scientific conversations here interesting, rigorous, and even valid. I would have it be a dialogue.
It’s a serendipitous coincidence that you ask what I think about traditional medical treatments versus more “magical” (shamanistic) ones. (You might be psychic.) In brief, I’ve been increasingly experiencing A-Fib (actually brady-cardia syndrome, which includes A-Fib along with three other “issues”). I’ve seen cardiologists and electrophysiologists about it (along with a number of tests). What they’ve said to me and my own systematic observations have led me to dive into the journals and community reports about current standards about how to deal with it. The electrophysiologist has told me to get a pacemaker, but I have my doubts that’s the right thing to do for me. So, here I am stumbling through typical scientific research outside of my area of expertise trying to understand what the issues are as seen today. Thankfully, highly specialized research studies don’t put me off: I have the training and discipline to wade through them sentence by sentence if need be.
Will I pursue a modern treatment? Most likely. Do I think the specialized medical community has it right? No, probably not. Do I think I’m in a position (or will be in a position soon with more in-depth reading and personal systematic observations and maybe second opinions) to come to my own determinations for my body, with this lifestyle (everyday behaviors), with these personal issues, at this time of medical understanding? Yeah, I think so. But that hope / conclusion is based upon past understanding of the certainty of science and an honest understanding of who and what I am.
*You* could predict, Ed, that what I find in reading the research and opinions of and highly specialized cardiologists and electrophysiologists is a loose consensus about what the medical pathology is, how it occurs, and what should be done about it. (For example, those interested in this particular topic {especially as it refers to catheter or surgical ablation}, see: https://academic.oup.com/europace/article/20/1/e1/4158475);
I don’t reject science. I use it. I also use many other acquired wisdoms in investigating the issues I find in this life I call me. I’m sure you understand.
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WBraun
climber
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I don’t reject science. I use it. I also use many other acquired wisdoms in investigating the issues I find in this life I call me. I’m sure you understand.
Yes, this is what intelligent people do ......
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Mike, I experienced SVT for many years and finally had an ablation eight years ago. It fixed the problem, but sensitized the heart muscle to the extent I had pre-AFIB spells for about a year until I started taking Flecainide, which cleared things up. I still take a tablet each morning, but I don't really need it.
I don't think an ablation for AFIB is as effective, unfortunately.
To others: Pardon the non-mind diversion.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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where does it leave the vast majority of human beings who can't even understand the language of the explanation?
Leading exciting, fulfilling, rewarding lives in the context of family and community.
It is good if everyone has the possibility to pursue answers to questions they are interested in. And has freedom from persecution.
However, it has been said that the people who speak the language of esoteric scientific explanations are only seeking the grudging approval of maybe 5 other people on the planet who understand. If that many.
My thesis advisor at Chicago used the memorable put-down, "On the level of what you read in the papers." Way back when there were newspapers.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I don’t reject science. I use it. I also use many other acquired wisdoms in investigating the issues I find in this life I call me. I’m sure you understand.
Pretty much exactly the approach Steve Jobs took...
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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John,
Thanks for chiming in. I’ve looked into it now.
It might be apparent to a reader of the document that I pointed to that things have changed a bit with regards to that particular therapy, which is why i’m looking at it. I mean, that’s the nature of investigation, isn’t it? The more one looks, the more one sees. (But there is no end to that process.) I’d post the articles that provide a more up-to-date conclusion than what you say, but then again, as I implied above, one person’s solution may only be one person’s solution. (As you also might suspect, the medical community *still* doesn’t know what causes A-Fib.)
Individual differences, contexts, heredity, and a long list of unknown factors only guessed at continue to indicate how little we know just about everything, to include the mere bag of bones we call a body.
My father was stationed on an island in the South Pacific early on in WWII. He fell over backwards into a foxhole and broke his back. They sent him to Pearl for an operation that grafted part of his tibia onto his back. While he was in Pearl, the Japanese attacked the island he was stationed on, and wiped out his battalion almost to a man. His operation was a success for decades, but later a spur emerged on his spine, which gave rise to an almost unbearable pain. He went from specialist to specialist to find a cure for almost 15 years, but no one could apparently solve his problem. This greatly frustrated my father, who was a mechanical engineer. “It’s a g*ddamned** mechanical system. Why in the hell can’t they fix it!?” he’d complain. Finally my father found a surgeon at Woods VA hospital who said, “yup, I know what your problem is, and I can fix it.” And he did.
We know so little about our bodies, it would seem. We know far far less about the mind. I would say that we need to consider all information, approaches, and perspectives to get a semblance of understanding. Were either simply an extension of what we think we know about physics, higher-level mechanics, or even psychology, then we'd probably be in good shape. Sometimes it feels like we’re just pissing into the wind with what we think we know. How disturbing it could be for a fellow like you who choose one therapy to find out later that another showed better results with a little more understanding. (I may find myself in the same boat, no?)
Be well. (I’ll let you know how things come out for me later privately.)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I would say that we need to consider all information, approaches, and perspectives to get a semblance of understanding.
I would say that that depends on what question you have. Be careful in your choice.
The more one looks, the more one sees. (But there is no end to that process.)
A nice optimistic viewpoint, if speaking personally.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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MikeL:
If I personally were diagnosed with A-fib the first thing I'd do is find out how to increase my vagal tone.
Good luck.
Vagal tone refers to activity of the vagus nerve, a fundamental component of the parasympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system. This branch of the nervous system is not under conscious control and is largely responsible for the regulation of several body compartments at rest
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WBraun
climber
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Everything is under conscious control.
That's what life itself is "consciousness".
There is. Is no un-consciousness in life.
Dead matter is unconscious .......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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The dangers of ignoring cognitive inequality...
https://quillette.com/2018/08/25/the-dangers-of-ignoring-cognitive-inequality/
" Job categories like driver, cleaner, and assembly line worker are rapidly disappearing due to automation, leaving those with low IQ nowhere else to go. While most of us delight at the luxurious comforts heralded by the ongoing automation revolution, these same comforts—such as self-driving cars, autonomous vacuum cleaners, and robotized assembly lines—are poised to render a cognitively vulnerable 15 percent of the population unemployed and unemployable."
...
I needed to get a better idea of who this Stefan Molyneux was so I listened to his critique of the piece.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/K-fFVL_V-lI/
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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What is Mind?
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brotherbbock
climber
So-Cal
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Anybody here read Robert Lanza's book Biocentrism?
Don't know if its been mentioned in this thread.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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What is Mind?
22,030 posts aren't enough?
Why the Capitalization of mind?
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WBraun
climber
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And that is why there is "What is mind" thread.
Because you people don't even understand nor know yourselves at all.
You only know what you think you know about yourself.
Otherwise you wouldn't be asking trivial questions like why is mind capitalized .......
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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^ interesting podcast thanks Fructose. He's talking about Edmund Husserl's ciphers. A well respected philosopher, but translated from German, it's hard to get through.
PS - I am always a little skeptical when people want to apply QM / Heisenberg principle to the macro world. That's the "Tao of Physics" idea.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 6, 2018 - 04:06pm PT
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I am always a little skeptical when people want to apply QM / Heisenberg principle to the macro world. That's the "Tao of Physics" idea.
I also think it's the obvious conclusion given that we are reductionists by nature. At what point does reductionism break down? Where is the threshold, and more importantly, why. Or conversely, what, if anything, inhibits quantum effects as you go in the opposite direction, building from the quantum to the macro, where linear cause and effect apparently come into play.
Fun to see what folks in the field write about it.
http://profzeki.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-macro-and-micro-worlds-in-physics_8.html
A common yet quirky work around to this problem is found in the Many Worlds stuff, also interesting.
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