What is "Mind?"

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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 16, 2018 - 08:57pm PT
Designing Collective Behavior in a Termite-Inspired Robot Construction Team
Justin Werfel, Kirstin Petersen, Radhika Nagpal

Science 14 Feb 2014:
Vol. 343, Issue 6172, pp. 754-758
DOI: 10.1126/science.1245842

Abstract
Complex systems are characterized by many independent components whose low-level actions produce collective high-level results. Predicting high-level results given low-level rules is a key open challenge; the inverse problem, finding low-level rules that give specific outcomes, is in general still less understood. We present a multi-agent construction system inspired by mound-building termites, solving such an inverse problem. A user specifies a desired structure, and the system automatically generates low-level rules for independent climbing robots that guarantee production of that structure. Robots use only local sensing and coordinate their activity via the shared environment. We demonstrate the approach via a physical realization with three autonomous climbing robots limited to onboard sensing. This work advances the aim of engineering complex systems that achieve specific human-designed goals.

...Engineering an automated construction system that operates by termite-like principles rather than human-like ones requires an ability to design complex systems with desired collective behavior (e.g., producing a particular user-specified building). The hallmark of complex systems of independent agents (5–7) is unexpected collective behavior that emerges from their joint actions, not readily predictable from knowledge of agent rules. If a specific collective behavior is desired, no method in general is known to find agent rules that will produce it....

We take an approach derived from the classically insect-inspired notion of stigmergy (2, 3, 16), in which, instead of any explicit broadcast or one-to-one communication between agents, all communication is implicit via the joint manipulation of a shared environment. In particular, we focus on qualitative stigmergy (2) in which actions are triggered by qualitatively different stimuli, such as distinct arrangements of building material. Robots in our system add bricks to the structure in response to existing configurations of bricks. In doing so, the rules they follow must be constructed in such a way that correct completion of the target structure is guaranteed, despite stale information about other parts of the structure, and irrespective of the (potentially variable) number of other robots and the order and timing of their own actions. The fact that all robots follow the same rules (17)—as all insects in the same colony follow consistent behavior patterns, or other animals obey intraspecific social conventions (18)—helps to constrain outcomes and restricts the space of possible situations that robots typically encounter and must be able to handle...

This work provides an example of an engineered complex system, with multiple autonomous robots following simple, local rules and collectively achieving a specific desired result. Tools drawn from the social insects that inspire our approach—the exploitation of regularities that arise from identical programming in multi-agent systems, and the use of the environment as a means of implicit coordination—make these results possible. Future progress in our ability to design complex systems will advance our capacity to engineer systems that work as nature does (25–27), with large numbers of functionally limited, interchangeable parts, individually unreliable, collectively robust.

[Click to View YouTube Video]




if you think about this a bit, the fact that termite behavior is an evolutionary adaptation, where independent agents working together using simple rules "build" something large and organized, it is not so much a stretch that viewing the brain as a collection of neurons who interact with "simple" rules to build something large and organized (mind?).
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 16, 2018 - 11:27pm PT
Neural net activations are aligned with gamma band activity of the human visual cortex

The human ability to visually recognize objects is mediated by a hierarchy of complex feature representations along the ventral stream.
...
The first layer is responsible for detecting straight lines, changes in brightness and other simple visual features," the researchers explain. "This information is passed onto the second layer, which combines simple features to build detectors that can identify simple shapes. And so it progresses, becoming more and more abstract with every layer, with the higher layer neurons representing whole objects, such as cats, dogs and so on. We knew that a very similar phenomenon is observed in the human visual cortex, so the obvious question was: How similar are these two systems, and what are their similarities?
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
Aug 17, 2018 - 06:42am PT
Cool ideas. The visual cortex reprocesses writing, but I think language is essentially auditory. emotions come from the amygdala, with the strengths of the signals are regulated by chemicals and consciously controlled by the prefrontal cortex. Complex decision making (should I quit my job?) seems to be a weighing of the emotions attached to varios possible outcomes.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Aug 17, 2018 - 08:08am PT
Don: Do you not believe Darwin's theory of natural selection is true? 

I’d say it’s descriptive, metaphorically. (I'm not sure of the theory's usefulness.)

Hermeneutically, Darwin was reportedly deeply saddened by the death of his daughter, Annie. The remorse partially motivated him, it’s said, to look for explanation that would settle his mind and heart. (Of course, the same thing would not be said about his intellectual competitor, Malthus, who seemed to have no such crises haunting him.)

I think Darwin’s arguments were most “true” before they were published and assimilated by societies. When reification sets in and people become aware of an explanation, there arise new unbeforehand possibilities to initiate change.

Once I come up with a theory about human behavior and make it known among humans, then those humans can apply / manipulate / game those theories to serve self interests guilefully. As discussed above in a previous post, the more significant environment with respect to rates of reproduction become social, not physical.

Observation and knowledge changes mind. Mind creates the world.


healyje: What are emotions?

“Hot cognition” could be one response to the question. Experientially, energy fields. This can be seen, imo, if one learns to delete the interpretations that are associated with those energy fields. Then those energy fields can be “surfed” sort of like a flow experience (see, Csikszentmihalyi on “flow”).

On the other hand, I suppose you're looking for a biological-chemical causal explanation.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 17, 2018 - 08:30am PT
On the other hand, I suppose you're looking for a biological-chemical causal explanation.

Actually, I'm looking at the subconscious mind and emotions in relation to awareness and subjective experience. What are emotions in that context? Do they only exist and have influence when you're consciously aware of them? If not, then what does that say or mean?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 17, 2018 - 09:08am PT
I regret I never youtubed James Flynn before last night. Many opportunities to do so but I never got around to it.

Several great insights here, all in 18 minutes, all worth incorporating, imo.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vpqilhW9uI



ref: mental toolkits (19th vs 21st centuries)


"This guy would be an awesome grandpa."

lol
WBraun

climber
Aug 17, 2018 - 12:12pm PT
IQ is only a poor measurement of being smart and completely misses intelligence.

Keep on lol as you keep on miserly failing to grasp even elementary intelligent consciousness with your biased materialistic YouTube brainwashing ......
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 17, 2018 - 03:38pm PT
Don: Do you not believe Darwin's theory of natural selection is true?
I’d say it’s descriptive, metaphorically. (I'm not sure of the theory's usefulness.)
Really? Sheesh!!! The right answer would be something like it is THE founding principle of biology! You should take a break from this thread, MikeL.

Btw, great link posts by Ed and HFCS!
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 17, 2018 - 04:18pm PT
This work provides an example of an engineered complex system, with multiple autonomous robots following simple, local rules and collectively achieving a specific desired result. Tools drawn from the social insects that inspire our approach—the exploitation of regularities that arise from identical programming in multi-agent systems, and the use of the environment as a means of implicit coordination—make these results possible. Future progress in our ability to design complex systems will advance our capacity to engineer systems that work as nature does
I love this quote from Ed's last post. It's completely in step with what I have been arguing for all along, although I would argue that this is a phenomenon of intelligence rather than mind per se (which should include an indication of self-reflection in my book).

I would summarize my main stance in this thread on two things;
1) that complex things can be built from simpler things and even simple things (for instance, all complex behavior is based on combinations of the bases, A, C, T, G), and,
2) that our best bet for understanding mind and intelligence is to look for examples in the animal kingdom, particularly those species most related to us. Ultimately, all of us have an ancestral tree that can be traced to around 4 billion years ago, so there is plenty of information to be gleaned from species farther down the tree, like termites.

It's not that termites led to us; more like, we and termites share a common ancestor. It's just tree logic.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 17, 2018 - 07:29pm PT
"...species farther down the tree..."

the point at which "we" branched is "further down the tree" but we all occupy the here and now, all successful so far.
That is really the only measure.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 17, 2018 - 07:40pm PT
we all occupy the here and now, all successful so far.
That is really the only measure.



So say the living.






; > )
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Aug 17, 2018 - 08:05pm PT
Mike L said: I’d say it’s descriptive, metaphorically. (I'm not sure of the theory's usefulness.)

eeyonkee said: Really? Sheesh!!! The right answer would be something like it is THE founding principle of biology! You should take a break from this thread, MikeL.

Maybe he means in terms of understanding where our world is going. With the theory of celestial mechanics, we have a pretty good idea where the celestial objects will be (at least in the observable universe) in the next century, the next millennium, the next 10,000 years. With the theory of evolution, we don't have a clue what's going to happen to life on earth in the next 100, 1,000 or 10,000 years. That might be one measure of the "usefulness" of a theory. If a theory doesn't give you a clue, in terms of specific details, what will happen in the future, it might seem reasonable to doubt it's usefulness.

There are other aspects of the theory of evolution which are only starting to become "more useful" as we develop a better understanding of genetics, e.g. applications to medicine, agriculture and other technologies. However, one could make the case that this "usefulness" has less to do with an application of the "modern synthesis" than it has to do with a better ability to model the underlying genetics.
WBraun

climber
Aug 18, 2018 - 07:43am PT
After the manifestation of life, modern science believed that chemical evolution transformed itself into biological evolution, which then had caused the entire biodiversity on our planet.
The ontological view of the organism as a complex machine presumes life as just a chance occurrence, without any inner purpose. This approach in science leaves no room for the subjective aspect of consciousness in its attempt to know the world as the relationships among forces, atoms, and molecules.
On the other hand, the Vedantic view states that the origin of everything material and nonmaterial is sentient and absolute (unconditioned).
Thus, sentient life is primitive and reproductive of itself – omne vivum ex vivo – life comes from life.
This is the scientifically verified law of experience.
Life is essentially cognitive and conscious.
And, consciousness, which is fundamental, manifests itself in the gradational forms of all sentient and insentient nature.
In contrast to the idea of objective evolution of bodies, as envisioned by Darwin and followers.

By metaphorically assuming an organism as a machine, biologists try to come to terms with many of its properties and features.
Following this approach, biologists have only made an attempt to discover the physical properties and chemical processes of different biomolecules present within the body of a living organism.
Such mechanical investigations of living organisms have always failed to provide any successful mechanical explanations of living organisms.
Therefore, such a reductionistic analysis is just a pretension to study life, but in actuality, it only deals with the study of dead matter (abiology).
As we know very well, “an organism is something which the scientific method cannot deal with; it is a hard, round, smooth nut,
which experimental analysis can neither crack nor lever open at any point. As soon as a hole is made in it, it explodes like a Prince Rupert drop and vanishes away.”

Noble prize winner, Szent-Györgyi also brilliantly presented the outcome of the mechanistic view of an organism:

“As scientists attempt to understand a living system, they move down from dimension to dimension, from one level of complexity to the next lower level.
I followed this course in my own studies. I went from anatomy to the study of tissues, then to electron microscopy and chemistry, and finally to quantum mechanics.
This downward journey through the scale of dimensions has its irony, for in my search for the secret of life, I ended up with atoms and electrons, which have no life at all.
Somewhere along the line life has run out through my fingers. So, in my old age, I am now retracing my steps, trying to fight my way back.”


Traditionally, in both eastern and western philosophy, life is understood as a cognitive or sentient principle.
Sentience cannot be manufactured artificially by any noble mechanical and chemical arrangement of dead atoms and molecules.
In the ancient eastern philosophy based on the Vedāntic or Bhagavat paradigm, for example, the invocation of Śrī Īśopanisad provides the concept of ‘Organic Wholism

The ‘Organic Whole’ produces ‘organic wholes’. An ‘organic whole’ cannot arise from parts that have to be assembled.
That process can only produce inorganic, mechanical or chemical processes, not living organisms.”

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138?scroll=top&needAccess=true
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Aug 18, 2018 - 09:32am PT
healyje: Do they [emotions] only exist and have influence when you're consciously aware of them? If not, then what does that say or mean?

I’d say quite the opposite, if one reads some of the literature. I’d point you to Paul Ekman. Ekman’s work has been useful to the Israelis profiling of terrorists in transportation. The face supposedly has 150+ muscles in it, half of which are controllable. The other half of them is not. No matter whose culture a face is from, says Ekman, they express the same emotions in the same way. Since those emotions are quickly expressed, automatically as it were (hot cognition), oftentimes an individual feeling an emotion is unaware they they are in the midst of the feeling—yet observers can see it and understand it intuitively. When you say to your wife, “No, I’m not angry!”, she can see for her self that you are even when you are unaware of it. The Israelis was taught to read the face, and caught people in guileful moments. (Also see Joe Navarro's writing--an ex-FBI profiler.)

Ekman has an easy to read book called, “Emotions Revealled” which explicates four basic emotions (along with many many full page pictures of his daughter in the midst of an emotional state so that one can note the characteristics). One of the things that I liked about the book was some musings of what constituted or underlie various emotional states cognitively: e.g., what’s going on with anger? What is anger cognitively? Ekman seems to suggest that anger is an emotional response to a perceived lack control in a salient situation.

All of this makes perfect intuitive sense to one, until one reads Damasio. Damasio’s work suggests that *first* an emotional state arises (just feelings) *and then* an interpretation arises that gets associated with the feeling. Hence, again, “hot cognition” that is almost instantaneously fast compared to discursive assessment. One does not perceive danger and then the heart rises; first the heart rises, and then danger gets formulated.

Interesting, no?


eeyonkee: The right answer would be something like it is THE founding principle of biology! You should take a break from this thread, MikeL.

Learn a little more about the scientific method and its ins and outs. Try to be a bit more objective, which implies a healthy amount of skepticism.

I like what Yanqui had posted.

It’s one thing to show that a theory has a usefulness with regards to everyday life and action. It’s another thing, imo, to say that a theory’s usefulness is related to its illumination of another theory. The first is practical; the second is academic. (There’s nothing wrong with academics. I’m making a distinction.)


Ed: we all occupy the here and now, all successful so far. That is really the only measure.

Care to explain that metric? Would that mean that anything that exists crosses the finish line of “success?” I don’t think anyone could say what doesn’t exist, for as soon as they say it . . . it’s been brought into a manifestation.


Go-B,

The guy is ripped, isn't he?
nafod

Boulder climber
State college
Aug 18, 2018 - 10:40am PT
I’d say quite the opposite, if one reads some of the literature. I’d point you to Paul Ekman. Ekman’s work has been useful to the Israelis profiling of terrorists in transportation. The face supposedly has 150+ muscles in it, half of which are controllable. The other half of them is not. No matter whose culture a face is from, says Ekman, they express the same emotions in the same way.
There’s some very recent ongoing research that runs directly counter to Ekman’s hypothesis. The book How Emotions are Made by Lisa Feldman Barrett is a nontechnical description of it. Has. Wikipedia page

The emotion paradox is as follows. People have vivid and intense experiences of emotion in day-to-day life: they report seeing emotions like "anger", "sadness", and "happiness" in others, and they report experiencing "anger", "sadness" and so on themselves. Nevertheless, psychophysiological and neuroscientific evidence has failed to yield consistent support for the existence of such discrete categories of experience.[4] Instead, the empirical evidence suggests that what exists in the brain and body is affect, and emotions are constructed by multiple brain networks working in tandem.[5][6]

Despite this evidence, most other theories of emotion assume that emotions are genetically endowed, not learned, and are produced by dedicated circuits in the brain: an anger circuit, a fear circuit, and so on. This point of view is very much in line with common-sense conceptions of emotion. The theory of constructed emotion calls this assumption into question. It suggests that these emotions (often called "basic emotions"[7]) are not biologically hardwired, but instead are phenomena that emerge in consciousness "in the moment" from more fundamental ingredients.

The [7] reference is Ekman.

Technical-ish paper
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5390700/

My favorite quote from her paper.
A brain did not evolve for rationality, happiness or accurate perception.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 18, 2018 - 11:30am PT
With the theory of celestial mechanics, we have a pretty good idea where the celestial objects will be (at least in the observable universe) in the next century, the next millennium, the next 10,000 years. With the theory of evolution, we don't have a clue what's going to happen to life on earth in the next 100, 1,000 or 10,000 years.

I actually think this mischaracterizes both evolution and "celestial mechanics."

In both, there is an overarching theoretical organizing principle. These principles serve to "explain" the bulk phenomena of the respective sciences.

One problem with "celestial mechanics" is that we have a long tradition of associating its successes with the picture of a deterministic universe that the "failures" of the theory to describe observation are somehow forgotten, or were never mentioned in the first place.

Much of the success is limited to our own solar system, the somewhat clockwork progression of most of the sky can be understood by taking into account the myriad wobbles and bumps of the Earth's own rotation, once again subject to nearby objects. So the motion of the planets and other objects in the solar system provide most of the observations that "celestial mechanics" addresses.

The perihelion shift of Mercury's orbit was a well known failure of "celestial mechanics" in the late 19th century. This failure is "righted" by using general relativity, as Einstein famously did, explaining how the Newtonian theory got it "wrong".

But it was less than a couple decades past that explanation that the rotation curves of large cosmic objects like globular clusters, and then eventually galaxies, that brought into question the applicability of gravity (either Newtonian or Einsteinian) to cosmological distances.

Thus the introduction of "dark matter," also dating back to the 1930s, as a means of preserving gravity. This wasn't really taken seriously until the early 1990s. Before then there was the nagging possibility (hope to some) that gravity wasn't what we thought it was, it didn't work over the long cosmic expanses; you'd have had to have limited "celestial" to the mere size of our solar system, and possibly the local stellar environment.

But if that is not enough, then we have the problem of stability in N-body systems, such as our own solar system. I am not sure that anyone has an explanation for that, it is a part of a program started by Poincare, and extends to the modern age in the study of "chaotic" mechanical systems, systems which are completely deterministic, but are so sensitive to their "initial conditions" that the actual trajectory of the system in phase space diverges, apparently in a chaotic fashion, from expectation. Recent observations of planetary systems around other stars unveil a plethora of planetary configurations, most (if not all) dissimilar to our own solar system. Our expectations were based on what we thought was "celestial mechanics."

So while we have been taught in grade school of the success of "celestial mechanics" there are certainly a number of "celestial" systems which cannot, even in principle, be subject to predictions into the future.

There are systems for which prediction is possible. I don't think that evolution is any different. Aside from the initial "predictions" of Darwin: the age of Earth has to be more than 100s of millions of years, and there must exist some mechanism of heredity within living things (being the two most spectacular), there are a number of "predictions" that can be made from the "modern synthesis" (which goes beyond Darwin's original theory).

I think we have more than "a clue" what will happen to life on the planet, though we cannot predict with microscopic precision (yet) how life will respond to the current changes.

To understand human behavior, it is not wrong to look for evolutionary hints. Like all science, eventual rigor is important for drawing conclusions; speculation and conjecture just the trailhead for adventure.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 18, 2018 - 12:41pm PT
Yanqui wrote:
That might be one measure of the "usefulness" of a theory. If a theory doesn't give you a clue, in terms of specific details, what will happen in the future, it might seem reasonable to doubt it's usefulness.

If you don't think that the theory of evolution gives us a clue to what is likely to happen in the future, you have not thought about this theory enough. The only reason that it is open-ended is that that Mother Nature is open-ended. I don't even know where to start. The theory of evolution is taught somewhere between the 8th and 12th grades across most of the western world. Guess you and MikeL must've missed that week in class.

Let's go over a few predictions that we can test:
1. We will not find a biological organism on this planet that is not based on the DNA molecule.
2. We will never discover a plant that has anything like the self-reflective consciousness of a human.
3. If a chimpanzee and a human could mate, they cannot produce offspring.
4. We will never identify human remains greater than 1 million years.
5. We will never identify a dinosaur younger than about 65 millions years.
6. We will never identify civilization in the lineage that includes turtles.
7. We will never discover trilobites in the geological record past the end of the Paleozoic.
8. We will never be able to claim victory over our mortal enemies -- microbes and viruses
... We could go on and on...

You seem like a smart guy, yangui -- surely the sheer number of independent variables in any prediction of a human behavior is not lost on you. It doesn't make the theory of evolution any less true.

MikeL said:
Learn a little more about the scientific method and its ins and outs.
You are insufferable -- and still boring! Your posts are boring in the same way as listening to somebody describe their dreams (who you don't know) is boring.
WBraun

climber
Aug 18, 2018 - 01:43pm PT
There is also ample empirical evidence that establishes cell sentience from the perspective of cell functions.
Cells can cognitively read their environment, analyze the received information and then execute the necessary action to continue their survival.

This coordinated cell action is known as cell signaling, which substantiates the possibility that the cell too has a mind.
Living cells regulate practically every cell function, including DNA synthesis, RNA synthesis, protein synthesis, cell division, cell differentiation, morphogenesis, and neuroendocrine regulation.

The caveman Darwinism mental speculative consciousness of brainwashed gross materialists is fast dying .......
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 18, 2018 - 01:55pm PT
I think what Szent-Györgyi wrote in "What is life?" is not what Werner's link claims (by implication and judicious choice of an incomplete passage), rather, that, as he famously stated, "there is no life, as such."

That is, we characterize the behavior of these biological systems as "life." He fully expected that the explanation of these behaviors to be described physically. But there is no "life" embedded in those biological systems.

Similarly, as has been suggested way up thread, there is no "mind," it is just our description of the behavior of our brain.

While this seems to violate our experience, one might ponder just how our "experience" arises, and why we are compelled to describe it.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 18, 2018 - 02:46pm PT
Ed said:

Similarly, as has been suggested way up thread, there is no "mind," it is just our description of the behavior of our brain.
Bingo! The other thing that I have tried to point out from time-to-time on this thread is that Michael Gazzinaga suggests a hypothesis that fits all of the facts. "Our description of the behavior of the brain" really is an after-the-fact story -- period. Our actual decisions are independent of mind, at least the part that is over and above mammal mind. Why it developed in humans is not well understood. That it is a new piece of machinery in the human brain is not in doubt.
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