What is "Mind?"

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 18661 - 18680 of total 22307 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
nafod

Boulder climber
State college
Jun 22, 2018 - 05:03am PT
Finally, proponents of the (hopeful) idea that "chemical reactions" somehow produced life are not recognizing the real problem of information. There is a profound chicken/egg problem in DNA, RNA, or even any "information" that might exist in amino acids.
I think Stuart Kauffman’s thoughts about sets of autocatalytic molecules in a setting where you have plenty of energy available, so entropy can in fact go down locally, is a key here. You create information and complexity, essentially, powered by the sun, or heat in the early Earth, or whatever. There is a forward march to the more complex, with natural selection pruning the branches. I don’t think random mutations by themselves would ever get us there.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Jun 22, 2018 - 05:10am PT
At present, there is no solid empirical evidence for genuine speciation

I'm no expert on evolution, and I'm not sure what you mean by "genuine" or "solid" but a quick look at the scientific literature produces literally hundreds of examples to consider. Have you considered them all? You already mentioned fruit flies (which can be done in the laboratory). Why doesn't that count? For example, what are your thoughts on this interpretation:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7f22/25c56da034b1e979f0c6307bc604cf25d4d6.pdf

It is possible that a more contemporary biological viewpoint takes the genetic material as a more fruitful way to understand "species" than traditional taxology or morphology?

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10722-003-4452-y

If you want to play the "science game", Feynman gave a great characterization of the rules back in the 1960s. One of them is these:

We get a lot of letters from people insisting that we ought to makes holes in our guesses. You see, you make a hole, to make room for a new guess. Somebody says, 'You know, you people always say that space is continuous. How do you know when you get to a small enough dimension that there really are enough points in between, that it isn't just a lot of dots separated by little distances?'

Or they say, 'You know those quantum mechanical amplitudes you told me about, they're so complicated and absurd, what makes you think those are right? Maybe they aren't right'.

Such remarks are obvious and are perfectly clear to anybody who is working on this problem. It does not do any good to point this out. The problem is not only what might be wrong but what, precisely, might be substituted in place of it.

In the case of the continuous space, suppose the precise proposition is that space really consists of a series of dots, and that the space between them does not mean anything, and that the dots are in a cubic array. Then we can prove immediately that this is wrong. It does not work. The problem is not just to say something might be wrong, but to replace it by something - and that is not so easy. As soon as any really definite idea is substituted it becomes almost immediately apparent that it does not work.

Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Jun 22, 2018 - 05:11am PT

In some ways you can view life on Earth as a 4.1 billion year chemical reaction (even though Jan objects to this characterization.



I certainly don't remember objecting to this characterization unless someone was maintaining it was the only statement one could make about life on earth and I thought that too narrow a definition.

As for the evolution of species, I thought that was taken care of with the understanding of astroid impacts with the earth and punctuated equilibria?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 22, 2018 - 06:14am PT
Instead, you see amazing complexity from the start.

and you will provide a rigorous account of "complexity," no doubt, and how it relates to biology.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jun 22, 2018 - 06:22am PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3098963&tn=0#msg3098976
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jun 22, 2018 - 07:05am PT
"Natural selection" doesn't have intentionality AT ALL. That is core evolutionary doctrine! Give up that doctrine, and you are then doing something like (at least) Lamarckism and at worst some sort of deism/theism.
I realize that I am cherry-picking a little here, but I don’t have a lot of time lately. MB1, are you familiar with the term “blind watchmaker”? You are using the term intentionality in too restrictive a sense. Of course natural selection produces intentionality. The “intention” is to survive. You’re far out there on this one.

Also (I had thought I had included this earlier in my longer post)
There is a vast difference between the simple utterances of, say, chimps or dolphins, and language as we know it; and you there's no known "pathway" from "there to here." Language as we know it depends upon a panoply of "deep structures" that seem to be "all or nothing." And basic utterances are not "language," any more than disparate notes are music.
This sounds much like the argument against the evolution of the eye or wing. It has to be all or nothing. What good is half an eye or half a wing? These arguments are the result of lack of imagination and can be shown to be false.

MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jun 22, 2018 - 07:10am PT
Can we say when and how the transition[chemical reaction] occurs?

I think the answer to this may very well be that it is not a physically meaningful question to ask.



Another good perspective. The question may seem to have meaning for a guy like me, but not in the context of the relevant physics.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 22, 2018 - 08:06am PT
It's the coffee I tell ya (and the DNA)


Researchers investigating the link between coffee and heart health found caffeine helps a special regulatory protein move into the powerhouse of our cells known as the mitochondria. Regulatory proteins bind to specific parts of the DNA and play a role in how genes are expressed. This involves helping to protect cardiovascular cells from damage.

The team based in Germany investigated how caffeine affects a protein called p27 found in mitochondria in the major cells of the heart. They found the equivalent of four or more espresso shots was enough to help to protect from cell death, and boost processes that help the organ to recover after a heart attack.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 22, 2018 - 08:25am PT
HFCS: . . . my favorite "postmodern" "sympathizer”….

You talking to me? Sharing some love? Nice.

eeyonkee: The “intention” is to survive. 

Could you show me this scientifically? I don’t think so. It could just as easily be a myth as anything else. (I see nothing wrong with myths imo, but to claim that as some kind of undeniable fact or rule of the universe is speculative and anthropomorphic in a modern sense.)

Such an intention (survival) could also well be a very poor one practically. Nothing conventional truly survives. Not one thing.

In certain ancient spiritual traditions, they describe how pure being (spirit) emanates finally into materiality as a series of glorious aesthetic expressions. One might see change in expression, but expression would not necessarily imply “development” either. (Would a evolutionist argue that all life must develop into something greater, more expansive, more knowing?)

Ever since the early 1900s, modern societies have come to believe in the idea of upward growth (an idea initiated by the Hebrews, the Greeks, and Christians): things that are put high are better; worse things are put low. (See Lakoff and Johnson’s book: “Metaphors We Live By.”) Development is never seen as going down.

Growth as development has become an ascensionist fantasy. Darwins’ thesis in “The Descent of Man” somehow came to be seen as The Ascent of Man. Today the upward idea of growth has become a biographical and psychological cliche.

Those ancient spiritual traditions that I refer to above say that so-called development, per se, is simply a transformation in form—much like an acorn becomes a oak tree. Not better, just different form.

One more time: given any set of data, one can come up with many interpretations [Feynman’s criticism notwithstanding] that could fit the data. No set of data is complete. No answer or interpretation finally pins anything down. What folks have are theories (at best), and all theories are abstractions. Reality—in the here and now, in experience—is not an abstraction.

The only claim that is undeniable for a being is that there is consciousness. (This IS the “What is Mind” thread.)
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jun 22, 2018 - 09:29am PT
Could you show me this scientifically? I don’t think so. It could just as easily be a myth as anything else. (I see nothing wrong with myths imo, but to claim that as some kind of undeniable fact or rule of the universe is speculative and anthropomorphic in a modern sense.)

MikeL, this isn't so much a scientific as a logical contention. All organism "do" things that promote their existence and that of their progeny. I realize that they do not know why they do these things, but they do them nonetheless. They are survival machines constructed from genes. That is all of the intentionality needed to keep the system going.

Half of my career has been in designing software systems that start off with logical building blocks and allow for various re-combinations of those blocks to build more complicated things. This is exactly how evolution works. Nearly all of the computer code ever written is just combinations of 0 and 1. Nearly all of the music ever written is just combinations of 8 notes. All of the products of evolution are the result of just 4 nucleotides (A-C-T-G).

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 22, 2018 - 09:43am PT
Hmm, as I expected, anybody even suggesting the evolutionary theory is not a fully adequate account of all that we observe in biology is totally dogpiled, albeit respectfully, which I very much appreciate.

But there's no way I can respond to every point, particularly not simultaneously. So, over the course of the day, I'll do what I can. Again, I much appreciate the tone. Thanks, guys.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jun 22, 2018 - 10:02am PT
Like your attitude, MB1! You are up against a lot more than the posters on this thread if you are going to take on evolution:)
nafod

Boulder climber
State college
Jun 22, 2018 - 10:09am PT
"Natural selection" doesn't have intentionality AT ALL. That is core evolutionary doctrine!
Hmm, as I expected, anybody even suggesting the evolutionary theory is not a fully adequate account of all that we observe in biology is totally dogpiled, albeit respectfully, which I very much appreciate.
I'm with you.

I think what is missing is that in a non-equilibrium system, there is a natural drive towards the more complex. It's not just mutations. Call it 'intention' if you will. Natural selection then provides the pruning. Turns a magnitude into a vector.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jun 22, 2018 - 10:19am PT
Ah,
What a strange commentary. -hfcs

Okay, zooming out for greater context:

From 20 June: “Something like that is also true for the protein/nucleic acid molecules that manage to maintain low entropy environments in our cells. They are so complex individually and their successful function depends on interactions with each other. It is hard to see how the system emerged. But there it is.” -mh2

From yesterday: "When it comes to difficult questions, consider what happens during a so-called chemical reaction. Two atoms or molecules collide and, let us say, join. Can we say when and how the transition occurs? In some sense we cannot: Because of the rules of quantum mechanics, the transition state cannot be captured or directly observed (wiki link)… Let's not underestimate the strangeness of simple(?) chemical reactions… But they happen." –mh2

Okay, seems less strange now. Goes to show context matters and following the storyline matters (and not losing the plot matters)

...

So I would just add - in the face of what seems to be happening in the wider public these days - as we ponder all this uncertainty and far-out abstraction - or subtle abstraction - and all these unknowns - at the so-called “bloody edges” of the frontiers of science, please let’s not forget just how much we actually do know – and how much is (reasonably) certain – at the core of our modern sciences – indeed as taught in our colleges every day and also corroborated in our lives every day.

...

What, 20k posts and no one's mentioned Boltzmann's brain?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain

Actually, I'm kind of surprised I hadn't. It was mentioned quite a bit in a very interesting way in Carroll's The Big Picture.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 22, 2018 - 10:57am PT
Like your attitude, MB1! You are up against a lot more than the posters on this thread if you are going to take on evolution:)

Well, I've taken on group-think before. Not all group-think is bad just because it is group-think. But neither is truth a function of consensus.

Let me quickly say that I could well be entirely wrong in my perspectives. I don't say that tritely. But if I'm wrong, I'm not ignorantly or stupidly wrong. So, while I am not dogmatic, I am deeply and broadly trained and read enough that the bar of changing my mind now is pretty high.

That said, I find the inference that most Christians employ to be particularly galling: "Science doesn't have an answer to [fill in the blank]; therefore God!"

Almost universally, Christians are not well-read enough to state, "Science doesn't have an answer to...." And even when they are on some particular point, it's a frightful appeal to ignorance to make the instant leap to "God."

I honestly believe that my present perspective at most opens some logical space for some sort of extra-material (as we presently know it) "designer." But the inferential steps to get from even there to anything resembling a "God" are absolutely daunting. And getting to a particular, sectarian "God" involves even more tenuous and tendentious inferential steps.

I sometimes indict science for repeated smuggling and taking things for granted. But religion is even more guilty of these practices, imo.

Of all the things I got dogpiled with, let me initially focus on "information," since that's the closest to the OP topic. Rather than to write out pages and pages of material, WoT upon WoT, I'll instead point you to a web page in which I systematically discuss "information." It's at least a good jumping-off point.

https://www.artofreasoning.com/?p=809

There's a lot there, including external references. Read at your leisure, if you wish.

Thanks again for the tone of the discussion.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jun 22, 2018 - 11:05am PT
MB1, your website name (in particular, Art of Reasoning) caught my attention.

https://www.artofreasoning.com/?page_id=58

I'll have to check it out later.

...

Do Insects Feel Pain?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csxgp4
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jun 22, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
I could well be entirely wrong in my perspectives. I don't say that tritely. But if I'm wrong, I'm not ignorantly or stupidly wrong.



I would say thought-provokingly wrong. If wrong. From where I sit.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 22, 2018 - 12:52pm PT
3 or 4 responses = dog pile.

Multiple responses each containing multiple points. No way to respond to all points in all posts.

Gotta be systematic.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jun 22, 2018 - 01:02pm PT
MB1, that Art of Reasoning link has some meat. Thanks for posting this. Like you, I guess, I've been contemplating many of these questions for decades. I see right away that I don't have to bring up Dawkins and Dennett and (I assume) Pinker, as you have referenced them in this document. I've posted these before. I just want to be very clear on where I get my ideas in my lifetime of being interested in this stuff.

eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jun 22, 2018 - 03:46pm PT
Just started reading MB1's link. It had me at...
But information is not nearly as simple and “common-sense” as it seems to us at first glance, and our everyday activities that employ information are actually profoundly involved and complicated. Just as empiricists oversimplify the processes that underlie experience and life itself, they radically oversimplify what information is.
I'm getting goose bumps just from the anticipation:)
Messages 18661 - 18680 of total 22307 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta