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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2018 - 07:50am PT
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Everyone is "smart" but NOT everyone has a good link to intelligence.
Intelligence comes from a higher source.
Which gross materialists say, "There is no need".
And thus they suffer the continual pangs of repeated birth, death, disease and old age.
All their attempts to solve their problems are fruitless.
All while masquerading themselves as advanced ......
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 25, 2018 - 09:02am PT
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I would be interested to know what are your contributions to math and/or science?
Why is it when folks start losing the argument around here they immediately demand bona fides? Too funny.
The fear of the apocalypse and the notion that its cause is the sin of humanity are vestiges of Christian belief that are ancient mythology and so deeply imbedded in the western consciousness that they manifest themselves still, even in the scientific community apparently.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 25, 2018 - 11:30am PT
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The fear of the apocalypse and the notion that its cause is the sin of humanity are vestiges of Christian belief
Your choice of words appears to be a vestige of Christian belief. I wouldn't be so sure about fears of climate change, overpopulation, and nuclear war, though.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 25, 2018 - 12:20pm PT
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"The fear of the apocalypse..."
as opposed to the polyannaish outlook that our superior culture and intelligence somehow provides us an exception to some very simple natural facts?
What are you doing about it?
apparently Paul feels there is no need to do anything to respond to the concern expressed by a bunch of scientists who he thinks harbor "romantic" notions.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 25, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
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apparently Paul feels there is no need to do anything to respond to the concern expressed by a bunch of scientists who he thinks harbor "romantic" notions.
What I'm pointing out is that the concerns you describe are tainted by the very mythologies you find reprehensible. Why you draw the conclusion I would do nothing to respond to real issues that concern the well being of the planet is beyond me and frankly beyond reason. But consider:
The idea that eternal existence is necessary for a validation of our importance.
That scale in relation to the universe is necessary to validate our importance.
That the end is near and it is caused by the sins of man.
That it is important to understand our insignificance in relation to the universe.
That nature has been corrupted and it is the fault of humanity.
All of these notions are vestiges of the very Christian mythology you decry and i would submit they are functions of a romantic understanding that rose in the 19th century as a replacement for that discredited Christianity.
Pollyanna? Not really.
And yeah, it's a silly argument to have.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 25, 2018 - 02:24pm PT
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"...are tainted by the very mythologies you find reprehensible."
sounds like that is your judgement. I don't find any mythology reprehensible. It is people motivated by their belief in a mythology that can act reprehensibly.
"The idea that eternal existence is necessary for a validation of our importance."
don't think I ever said this, if anything, I've said that the fact that we exist at all is cause for celebration and wonder.
"That scale in relation to the universe is necessary to validate our importance."
never said this, but it is natural to measure our scale in relationship with the entire universe, not in terms of importance, but you could believe that if you want.
"That the end is near and it is caused by the sins of man."
not the "sins of man" but our nature, and all of life's nature. We seek to the exploit the resources available to us, which makes economics a subfield of ecology, something that would do economics well as it would sweep out all the other bullshit about "hidden hands" and all that.
"That it is important to understand our insignificance in relation to the universe."
It would matter how you define "significance"? Until recently we were pretty insignificant on the planet, now we're causing a mass extinction and probably changing the course of the history of life on the planet.
This goes unnoticed in most of the rest of the universe.
"That nature has been corrupted and it is the fault of humanity."
I think what is happening is quite natural, and without fault. The irony is that we know what is happening but probably can't, because of our nature, change our behavior.
All of these notions are vestiges of the very Christian mythology you decry and i would submit they are functions of a romantic understanding that rose in the 19th century as a replacement for that discredited Christianity.
I'm not a Christian, but I certainly grew up embedded in that culture. And you have an particular interpretation of what I write and why I write it which is not likely to change. But certainly you are entitle to your opinions.
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2018 - 02:30pm PT
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This goes unnoticed in most of the rest of the universe.
You'd be very surprised how many on other planets are observing the insane gross materialists.
I think what is happening is quite natural, and without fault.
What is really happening is quite unnatural.
You "think that" and that means you don't know and are just guessing ultimately.
But there is fault just by the very fact that Karma exists, whether you see it or not.
It is there ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 25, 2018 - 02:38pm PT
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You "think that" and that means you don't know and are just guessing ultimately.
perhaps I was just using a colloquialism, one can dress up the current behavior of humans with layers of human interpretation, but it is at its essence the same thing all other life does on the planet.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 25, 2018 - 08:38pm PT
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You'd be very surprised how many on other planets are observing the insane gross materialists
Interstellar clairvoyance no doubt. Meditative entanglement? We have a new path forward here.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 26, 2018 - 07:55am PT
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You'd be very surprised how many on other planets are observing the insane gross materialists
Uh Oh!
It sounds like we are going to get a dark forest strike.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 26, 2018 - 08:24am PT
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We seek to the exploit the resources available to us, which makes economics a subfield of ecology, something that would do economics well
I really like this idea. I'm going to include it in the economics section of my intro to behavioral science course.
I do think however, that Paul has a point about our secular culture's ideas still be being affected by our religious background. The idea of original sin and man's depravity are peculiar to the West and don't exist even in the forms of Christianity that prevailed in the eastern Roman Empire.
In Asia, especially East Asian Confucianism, it is assumed that man is good and can be made better through education and the example of good governance. This creates a much more optimistic view of things. In light of the seeming paralysis of western governments now arguing over firmly held principles about mankind and government yet able to do nothing, the East has a big advantage with their more optimistic and pragmatic approach. We are animals and products of our ecology, but our great intelligence is capable of creating ideas that have vastly different impacts on human outcomes.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 26, 2018 - 08:42am PT
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You'd be very surprised how many on other planets are observing the insane gross materialists
Because there are no resources left on those many other planets and the insane gross materialist look pretty tasty?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 26, 2018 - 09:06am PT
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it was Debbie's idea (my wife the restoration ecologist) that economics is a subfield of ecology
from the Wiki page:
"Ecology (from Greek: οἶκος, "house", or "environment"; -λογία, "study of")[A] is the branch of biology[1] which studies the interactions among organisms and their environment. Objects of study include interactions of organisms with each other and with abiotic components of their environment. Topics of interest include the biodiversity, distribution, biomass, and populations of organisms, as well as cooperation and competition within and between species. Ecosystems are dynamically interacting systems of organisms, the communities they make up, and the non-living components of their environment. Ecosystem processes, such as primary production, pedogenesis, nutrient cycling, and niche construction, regulate the flux of energy and matter through an environment. These processes are sustained by organisms with specific life history traits. Biodiversity means the varieties of species, genes, and ecosystems, enhances certain ecosystem services."
most people who studied economics balk at the suggestion. Humans, they would argue, are more "complicated."
I'm sure those who hold humans up as exceptions on this planet would agree, and in so doing turn a blind eye to the consequences of human activity.
This is not an issue regarding a myth where humans are thrown out of the Garden of Eden, rather a relatively objective view of "primary production, pedogenesis, nutrient cycling, and niche construction, regulate the flux of energy and matter through an environment" in which these "processes are sustained by organisms with specific life history traits."
The "laws" regulating "the flux of energy and matter through an environment" are physical and not subject to the whim of human desire, or easily brushed aside by the assertion that superior intellect will always resolve them in humans' favor.
This "don't worry, be happy" way of thinking is the result of this unexamined faith in our capability, and a faulty and incomplete understanding of the natural history of humans.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 26, 2018 - 09:34am PT
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We seek to the exploit the resources available to us,
Because there are no resources left on those many other planets
The axioms of cosmic sociology are: “First: Survival is the primary need of civilization.
Second: Civilization continuously grows and expands, but the total matter in the universe remains constant” (13). These axioms present a negative answer to the above question: the universe does not have room for morality; it is a dark forest ruled mercilessly by the laws of jungle.
http://u.osu.edu/mclc/book-reviews/mingweisong/
https://www.fictionunbound.com/blog/deaths-end
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 26, 2018 - 09:49am PT
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I'm sure those who hold humans up as exceptions on this planet would agree, and in so doing turn a blind eye to the consequences of human activity.
I would hold the opposite is true. That our exceptional nature is a factor of encouragement in overcoming the consequences of human activity because in it is a realization of our responsibility both to ourselves and the environment we live in.
This is not an issue regarding a myth where humans are thrown out of the Garden of Eden, rather a relatively objective view of "primary production, pedogenesis, nutrient cycling, and niche construction, regulate the flux of energy and matter through an environment" in which these "processes are sustained by organisms with specific life history traits."
A careful study of myth will disclose two things: the syncretic ease of mythological ideas from one culture to the next and the realization these ideas are ingrained deep in the psyche of any given culture. The sureness of our objectivity stands ready to make fools of us.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 26, 2018 - 10:37am PT
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One other thing relevant here to the impact of mind on the environment, is the importance of demography in terms of age distribution.
The societies of the West are aging and therefore more conservative in the sense of clinging to old ideas and ways of doing, while China and India are young societies with lots of innovation and energy to put their more optimistic views into practice. For example, China is the world's leader in the production of solar power while we are still talking about bringing coal back.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 26, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
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The sureness of our objectivity stands ready to make fools of us.
Case in point.
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toejahm
Trad climber
Chatsworth, CA
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May 26, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
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Reality, what a concept!
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WBraun
climber
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May 26, 2018 - 07:46pm PT
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To the gross materialist, there is no reality and it is a concept because their whole consciousness is rooted in illusion which they masquerade as relative reality .....
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toejahm
Trad climber
Chatsworth, CA
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May 26, 2018 - 07:56pm PT
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Nice Werner,
I was feeling nostalgic and arbitrarily pined in...
Peace,
Kenny
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