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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 22, 2018 - 07:03pm PT
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Having the evolved capacity for imagination we invented an endless litany of gods and reasons why bad things happen. We then used those imaginary reasons to aid in the development of hierarchies and codified them into religions
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 22, 2018 - 07:19pm PT
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Paul thinks we live in an egalitarian society now?
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 23, 2018 - 03:14am PT
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Most people don't want complicated answers or answers that make them think; they want easy-to-digest dogma they can hold on to. It's why religion endures.
Another product of evolution?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 23, 2018 - 06:09am PT
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Most people don't want complicated answers or answers that make them think
Another product of evolution?
Well, the human brain is a bit of an energy hog and its benefit toward keeping you alive should make up for its cost in calories. Nowadays I don't think we need such a big brain as we used to and it may have shrunk over the last several thousand years. Check with Jan.
It seems we may have had to make more use of our brains when we had to find our own food, avoid getting eaten by big fierce animals, and get along in small tightly knit social groups. I realize it takes a lot of brain power to operate smart phones and follow the plot of many tv series these days, but yes, our distaste for complicated answers and mental exercise may have a tie-in to our evolutionary past.
Whew! That was hard work.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 23, 2018 - 08:35am PT
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Paul thinks we live in an egalitarian society now?
Reminds me of Louis CK's bit on flying where everybody bitches about the food and service and lines, all that complaining and my god you're sitting in a chair in the sky like a Greek god.
Yes I do think we live in an egalitarian society where we take care of the poor and sick and do our best to assure equal opportunity to all. May not be perfect but my god we live in a society of 300 million people and considering the size of that population we get along pretty well. It's not the middle ages any more is it?
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 23, 2018 - 09:33am PT
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Hey, MH2: did you see my post a while back about the leaf-cutter ants? I'm thinking about your reference to bees learning. I'm not sure what science knows now about insect learning, but the level of "intelligence" shown by my leaf-cutter ants really impressed me.
When I was a kid, I remember that the official "dogma" (even "scientific" dogma) about animal behavior was that animals followed "instinct" while people followed "reason". Yet I felt a connection with animals, and couldn't see that much difference between the way they behaved and the way we behaved. The similarities, to me, were much more striking than the differences. I recall asking people "what is instinct?" hoping to get what they meant, but I never really understood the answers. I suppose that has something to do with why I drifted to philosophy instead of science, to look for an answer (it seemed to me science had already made up its mind about the whole affair).
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1593650&msg=3084161#msg3084161
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 23, 2018 - 01:57pm PT
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The very different social lives among the two chimpanzee groups and us, despite sharing 98% or so of our DNA, speaks volumes about what mind must be. Clearly, issues that a human mind might be concerned about are different from that of a bonobo or common chimp's, given the same starting stimuli. I mean, their whole social environment is different because of these "relatively" small differences in their DNA. Ethics and morals in a common chimp society will be obviously different than ethics and morals in a bonobo or human society. Ethics and morals, therefore, are not some universal truth to be discovered, but, rather, a local phenomenon of an agreement between participating members in a group of interacting individuals. The "agreement" is always in tension.
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
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I mean, their whole social environment is different because of these "relatively" small differences in their DNA.
DNA has nothing to with DNA.
The difference is the developed consciousness.
Humans have a far higher developed consciousness than the animal world .....
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 23, 2018 - 02:06pm PT
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Humans have a far higher developed consciousness than the animal world ..... With all due respect, people like you are the problem..
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 23, 2018 - 02:12pm PT
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Humans have a far higher developed consciousness than the animal world .....
I thought it was all one consciousness. Kind of back to the whole question of why would a panpsychic consciousness need a bunch of revolving meat puppets anyway?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 23, 2018 - 02:23pm PT
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With all due respect, people like you are the problem..
I just don't get this idea that an animals intellect/ consciousness/ intelligence is somehow on par with that of a human being. When you think of the things the human mind has accomplished, its potential to accomplish even more, its understanding, its ability to communicate that understanding, its achievements in science and the humanities to disparage that as nothing greater than a chimp with a stick feeding on termites or a colony of bees learning where a nearby source of nectar might be seems beyond ludicrous.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 23, 2018 - 02:34pm PT
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Paul, sometimes I think that you are just trolling, but let's be clear on how this works. There is still a genetic separation of around 7 million years between us and the chimpanzees. All of the truly "intermediates" with respect to mind and consciousness died off on the human branch of the tree of life. We are the last along our particular trunk branch. So, of course there will still be an apparent large disparity in cognitive abilities between us and bonobos and common chimps. Again, to be clear, the intermediates are not now available. By examining the intermediates you would be able to follow the evolutionary path, and each step would not seem unusual.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 23, 2018 - 03:24pm PT
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Paul, sometimes I think that you are just trolling, but let's be clear on how this works. There is still a genetic separation of around 7 million years between us and the chimpanzees. All of the truly "intermediates" with respect to mind and consciousness died off on the human branch of the tree of life. We are the last along our particular trunk branch. So, of course there will still be an apparent large disparity in cognitive abilities between us and bonobos and common chimps. Again, to be clear, the intermediates are not now available. By examining the intermediates you would be able to follow the evolutionary path, and each step would not seem unusual.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Nobody's arguing the theory of evolution. Presently, however, the human mind seems something unique and fine in comparison to the animal world, an unprecedented evolutionary development that should be celebrated for what it is.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 23, 2018 - 03:26pm PT
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Sigh...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 23, 2018 - 04:07pm PT
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Yeah, sigh for the constant self deprecation of mind that seems to emanate from some on the science side. Romantic baloney for sure.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 23, 2018 - 04:22pm PT
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7.62 billion
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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May 23, 2018 - 04:33pm PT
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110 billion already born and died
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