What is "Mind?"

yanqui: I'm not sure how the statement "morality is a product of evolution" helps me...

Also, I thought we'd already been over the fact that saying religion is based on fear is a radical oversimplification of human emotion.

When classical physicists' thought they saw God in what they took to be the simple clockwork of the universe, was that fear? When Mother Teresa thought she saw God in works of charity, was that fear? When John Muir thought he saw God in what he took to be the awesome harmony of nature, was that fear? He certainly didn't express it that way (as fear) in his writings. As Paul said, it was an expression of the sublime.

Undoubtedly fear and anxiety play a role in the development of religion. They also play a role in the development of science. What does it add to the discussion to say "science is a product of evolution and is based on fear". That statement seems as "true" to me (and as empty) as the equivalent one about religion.

jan: Science as a sophisticated way of overcoming fear. Interesting concept.

Meanwhile I think it's presumptuous to presume that "for tens of thousands of years fear was a far more pervasive emotion than your quite civilized notions of the sublime". Anthropologists and archaeologists struggle mightily to understand what might have been going on in the brains of our forebears depending on brain size, convolutions etc. I haven't however, heard any of them claim they know, although the advent of fire control and stone tools begins to give us hints.

Personally, I think fear is probably more common to modern humans who are so much less self-sufficient than the ancients and who deal with a much more complex world where many more things can go wrong over which we have no control.

If you cannot see how evolution might provide a lesson in human morals and ethics perhaps it is because this sort of view point puts the responsibility for our actions squarely on us as individuals. To some extent we have choices in our actions, but largely what is "good" and what is "bad" has a lot to do with the consequences of those actions in the context of life on the planet.

The view point of one who believes that humans are the "crown of creation" will justify human action quite differently than the view point of one who sees humans as a part of the intricate web of life, a web whose extent is not just what encompasses all of our planet today, but one that also stretches back in time to its beginning.

It remains that notions of political equality and social justice violate the expediency of any process toward evolutionary success. Where is the "self-evident truth" of equality without the "creator's endowment?"

The dismissal of that consciousness as nothing particularly important in relationship to the rest of the "intricate web of life," is redolent of similar subordinations in Christian and Romantic thought. But I've tried to point that out before. Perhaps it's really up to the Dolphins to unlock the secrets of the universe or maybe they're beyond that already.

You might as well attempt to make the same claims about social insects. The very idea of a beehive without an endowment? Preposterous.

Because my instinct, like most humans, is take as much as I can for my own purposes.

My point is neither requires an endowment of any kind.

Really? Then what is the basis or foundation for political equality? Where is the basis of the notion that all men are created equal? Where is the self-evident truth of that idea?

We are all conceived and born exactly the same way and are obviously equal because of it, but I have no doubt tribalism combined with hierarchy quickly dispelled that self-evident truth in agrarian societies. And on punching in "hierarchy agrarian" in google, it looks like I'm not alone in that opinion.

Birth alone doesn't create a foundation for equity. Some are born powerful, some are born less capable, some are born more intelligent, some weaker some stronger. Where is the equality? Political equity is the farthest thing from reality and its incredibly recent introduction, momentarily forgetting the Greeks, is a testimony to the greatness of the human mind and its magnanimity.

Obviously equal we are not. So again where is the source of our notion of equality if it's not something "endowed by our creator.

Your questions tell more than you know.

These all occurred a nano-second ago on evolutionary scales. How sublime do you suppose it was sitting in the dark listening to a couple of Sabretooth Tigers?

So again where is the source of our notion of equality if it's not something "endowed by our creator?"

paul roehl: The notion of perfect equality in primal tribes is romantic fantasy (as in the noble savage) in the same way celebrating dolphins as somehow enjoying a higher level of intelligence than humans is.

yanqui: Exactly. Weapons, organized cooperation, strategy and understanding your adversary are much more effective against Sabertooth Tigers than belief in God (or gods, since the capital "G" dude wasn't around yet), so why not say that that fear is the origin of science and technology? Why is religion supposed to play the important role there?

Anyways, if religion is a product of evolution, how can it be so dysfunctional as you seem to think it is, even if it did come from fear? Why has it stuck around so long? I'd like to hear your ideas about how such a set of behaviors evolved and became so prevalent. Blowing it off as fear seems pretty weak.

Again, the [Eurocentric] arrogance is utterly breath-taking.

the top of the Pyramid of the Sun to have their hearts cut out

Try breathing into a paper bag. I can only imagine the profound gratefulness of those dragged to the top of the Pyramid of the Sun to have their hearts cut out for the egalitarian ways of their noble brethren or the exquisite tortures used by native Americans on their equal and grateful brothers. Not to mention the fact that slavery was common among Native American tribes way before Europeans even got here or how about the hundreds of Peruvian children left to die on mountain tops as means of making life better for their fellow and equal citizens. That Native American enlightenment may not be exactly what you fantasize.

Birth alone doesn't create a foundation for equity. Some are born powerful, some are born less capable, some are born more intelligent, some weaker some stronger. Where is the equality? Political equity is the farthest thing from reality and its incredibly recent introduction, momentarily forgetting the Greeks, is a testimony to the greatness of the human mind and its magnanimity.

Beehives run on instinct