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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 21, 2018 - 03:04pm PT
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Your morality and virtue is a product of evolution, not a god.
Well then If you say that god/gods are a creation of evolution. Or is our morality more real than god? Aren't both human/evolutionary constructs according to your thinking?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 21, 2018 - 04:31pm PT
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Yes, gods are an evolutionary response to fear of the unknown and unanswerable questions - they provide answers when none are otherwise available. And humans and other mammals self-organize, have an intrinsic ability to learn and understand community norms of behavior - i.e. understand 'right from wrong' behaviors relative to those norms. I'd say your morality and virtue are simply social behaviors extrapolated out in-line with our advanced cognitive abilities.
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WBraun
climber
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May 21, 2018 - 04:35pm PT
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gods are an evolutionary response to fear of the unknown and unanswerable questions
Such brainwashed horsesh!t constantly coming out of your insane head .....
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 21, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
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I'd say your morality and virtue are simply social behaviors extrapolated out in-line with our advanced cognitive abilities.
Quite right, IMO. Along that line of thinking, morals and right from wrong only make sense in a society of minds. Ethics would basically make no sense to a non-social species or to the mind of an individual in a non-social species. Human mind is something that cannot be divorced from its evolutionary roots in a social species.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 21, 2018 - 06:02pm PT
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My point is the degree to which humanity has elevated such a notion to a complexity of wisdom that places morality/virtue as our highest achievement. It is a morality we extend to all living things as well as each other and that's pretty remarkable.
We are a high-achieving species with wonderfully advanced morality. We won't be able to explain that to the species who have gone extinct because of us, though.
I see beauty in human weaknesses and failures, as well as in our grand achievements. We do try.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 21, 2018 - 07:01pm PT
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Paul: But when it declares all hierarchies as functions or structures solely of power, when everything is interpreted as a cog in a structure of oppression, I find it hard to take seriously.
I hear you. I won’t make that argument. I’ll let feminists and the black-lives-matter movement make it for me. I’m not saying they're right; but I won’t say that they're wrong either. I’ll say they have strong points to make, and that I should take them as seriously as anything else in front of me. Here I’ll defer to Mr. Braun:
Duck: Consciousness is the single most important factor in understanding life and Mind.....
Healyje: . . . gods are an evolutionary response to fear of the unknown and unanswerable questions - they provide answers when none are otherwise available. . . . .
Put some flesh on those bones. What sort of answers would the belief in gods provide that would provide an evolutionary advantage? How is it that what is false (according to you, the belief in God) would somehow assist in the efficiency and effectiveness of the procreation of the species when technically “survival of *the fittest*” is what determines superiority and advancement? Are you thinking through what you're writing?
It seems to me that what is true is what leads to advancement and development of the species.
The more one understands reality, the more one prospers in the most salients ways. What’s salient about life / living? Happiness? Well-being? What will you look back on in your life on your death bed? The number of widgets that you developed or sold? The amount of wealth you accumulated? The love of your friends and family?
You paint religion with a very broad brush, and it’s all black in your rendition.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 21, 2018 - 07:17pm PT
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The notion of fairness is another testimony to the nobility of the human race.
Not just the "human race" though, notions of fairness exist in primates and other mammals.
Alturism is a feature of social insects.
These behaviors that the "human race" perceive and interpret are much broader than humans; the nobility is an inheritance.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/humans-are-dumb-at-figuring-out-how-smart-animals-are/
https://www.nonhumanrights.org/litigation/
Scala Naturae: Why there is no theory in comparative psychology
William Hodos, C. B. G. Campbell
Psychological Review, 76(4), 337-350.
http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/h0027523
Abstract
The concept that all living animals can be arranged along a continuous "phylogenetic scale" with man at the top is inconsistent with contemporary views of animal evolution. Nevertheless, this arbitrary hierarchy continues to influence researchers in the field of animal behavior who seek to make inferences about the evolutionary development of a particular type of behavior. Comparative psychologists have failed to distinguish between data obtained from living representatives of a common evolutionary lineage and data from animals which represent divergent lineages. Only the former can provide a foundation for inferences about the phylogenetic development of behavior patterns. The latter can provide information only about general mechanisms of adaptation and survival, which are not necessarily relevant to any specific evolutionary lineage. The widespread failure of comparative psychologists to take into account the zoological model of animal evolution when selecting animals for study and when interpreting behavioral similarities and differences has greatly hampered the development of generalizations with any predictive value. (42 ref.) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2017 APA, all rights reserved)
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 22, 2018 - 12:03am PT
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Isn't it fascinating that in the process of human evolution the evolutionary product of god is ubiquitous? What society historically does not have its gods? Why would evolution produce such a thing: god? Fear? Well what's the source of that fear? Why should anyone be afraid? Why should human beings be afraid of the structure of life and so require a personal deity to reconcile themselves to what is ultimately and cosmically absolutely insignificant? Dismissing god as simply the product of fear ignores the complexity of the existence of god as an idea not just as a by product of fear but as a recognition and celebration of the sublime. What better metaphor for the infinite universe, the starry sky above than a god that can only be perceived by virtue of the evolutionary triumph we call the human mind?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 22, 2018 - 12:25am PT
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Ed Hartouni: Not just the "human race" though, notions of fairness exist in primates and other mammals.
Yes, for some time now I've talked about the evolution of behaviors in both extant species and in the evolutionary record. The fact other species can understand right from wrong implies they also understand notions of fairness.
paul roehl: Isn't it fascinating that in the process of human evolution the evolutionary product of god is ubiquitous? What society historically does not have its gods? Why would evolution produce such a thing: god? Fear? Well, what's the source of that fear? Why should anyone be afraid? Why should human beings be afraid of the structure of life and so require a personal deity to reconcile themselves to what is ultimately and cosmically absolutely insignificant?
Seriously? You do understand there was a time before pencils, oil paint and watercolors when man was prey as often as predator? That before man controlled fire he lived in darkness? That before medicine man was savaged by disease?
Dismissing god as simply the product of fear ignores the complexity of the existence of god as an idea not just as a by-product of fear but as a recognition and celebration of the sublime.
I'm not dismissing god a simply a byproduct of fear - I'm saying that for tens of thousands of years fear was a far more pervasive emotion than your quite civilized notions of the sublime.
What better metaphor for the infinite universe, the starry sky above than a god that can only be perceived by virtue of the evolutionary triumph we call the human mind?
Sigh. Arrogance without bounds, so yeah why not a god or two or tens of thousands. And hell, it appears even one god is tough to pin down and isn't immune from evolution if the phone book for the town of Hood River, OR (pop. 23,377) is to be believed:
Immanuel Lutheran Church, 305 9th St, Hood River OR 97031-1804
Riverside Community Church, 317 State St, Hood River OR 97031
Tucker Road Baptist Church, 1455 Tucker Rd, Hood River OR 97031-9633
Asbury United Methodist Church, 1140 Tucker Rd, Hood River OR 97031-9672
St Mary's Catholic Church, 1501 Belmont Ave, Hood River OR 97031-1651
United Pentecostal Church, 1331 Tucker Rd, Hood River OR 97031-8606
Seventh-Day Adventist Church Of Hood River, 1223 Oak St, Hood River OR 97031
Belmont Drive Missionary Baptist Church, 4200 Belmont Dr, Hood River OR 97031-9794
Seventh-Day Adventist Church, 1090 22nd St, Hood River OR 97031-9668
Our Redeemer Lutheran Church, 1140 Tucker Rd, Hood River OR 97031-9672
Mountain View Baptist Church, 4200 Belmont Dr, Hood River OR 97031-9794
Gloria Dei Lutheran Church, 4320 Portland Dr, Hood River OR 97031
Pine Grove Historic Church, 2415 Eastside Rd, Hood River OR 97031
Bethany Evangelical Lutheran Church, 1107 Pine St, Hood River OR 97031-2129
Seventh Day Adventist Church School, 1100 22nd St, Hood River OR 97031-9669
Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints, 1825 May St, Hood River OR 97031-1354
First Baptist Church Of Odell, 3080 Odell Hwy, Hood River OR 97031
Hood River Nazarene Church, 2168 Belmont Dr, Hood River OR 97031-9552
Asbury United Methodist Church, 616 State St, Hood River OR 97031-1872
Hood River Four Square Church, 3875 Barrett Dr, Hood River OR 97031-7728
Covenant Christian Church, 455 Frankton Rd, Hood River OR 97031-9737
Pine Grove United Methodist Church, 2415 Eastside Rd, Hood River OR 97031
Covenant Christian Hood River Church, 550 Riverside Dr, Hood River OR 97031-1190
Hood River Church Of Christ, 1512 Tucker Rd, Hood River OR 97031-9679
St Marks Episcopal Church, 400 11th St, Hood River OR 97031-1547
First Baptist Church Of Hood River, 1889 Belmont Dr, Hood River OR 97031-8509
Hood River Valley Christian Church, 975 Indian Creek Rd, Hood River OR 97031-9709
Hood River Alliance Church, 2650 Montello Ave, Hood River OR 97031-1023
First Baptist Church, 3081 Odell Hwy, Hood River OR 97031
Concordia Lutheran Church, 1107 Pine St, Hood River OR 97031-2129
Mid Columbia Unitarian, 4268 Barrett Dr, Hood River OR 97031
Shepherd Of The Valley Bible Church, 1631 8th St, Hood River OR 97031-1996
MikeL: Put some flesh on those bones. What sort of answers would the belief in gods provide that would provide an evolutionary advantage? How is it that what is false (according to you, the belief in God) would somehow assist in the efficiency and effectiveness of the procreation of the species when technically “survival of *the fittest*” is what determines superiority and advancement? Are you thinking through what you're writing?
Yes, I am. I would say it provided an advantage as a ritual kinship driver in the evolution of tribalism.
It seems to me that what is true is what leads to advancement and development of the species.
I would say any notion of objective truth is a relatively recent human concept and before that anything, no matter how outlandish, that worked was good enough from that ritual kinship perspective.
The more one understands reality, the more one prospers in the most salients ways. What’s salient about life / living? Happiness? Well-being? What will you look back on in your life on your death bed? The number of widgets that you developed or sold? The
Life / living? Happiness? Well-being? Are gods or religion or a morality from above a requirement here? I certainly missed it if so...
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 22, 2018 - 06:16am PT
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I'm not sure how the statement "morality is a product of evolution" helps me get any clearer about what I should do (if morality means knowing what to do). By itself, the statement "so and so is a product of evolution" approaches something like a near-empty tautology, of no practical value. I mean, how does pointing out "cooking is a product of evolution" or "music is a product of evolution" or "mathematics is a product of evolution" or "climbing is a product of evolution" help me in any way to become a better cook, a better musician, a better mathematician or a better climber? I suppose I do think (like Plato did) that morality is a kind of skill. How does saying "morality is a product of evolution" help me become a better person? Where does "evolution" come down on the bolting controversy?
Don't get me wrong, when DMT et. al. point out that many features of what we call morality, exist in other groups of animals and that those features relate to the flourishing of the group (or species), I think that adds an interesting and important ingredient to any conversation about morality.
Also, I thought we'd already been over the fact that saying religion is based on fear is a radical oversimplification of human emotion. When classical physicists' thought they saw God in what they took to be the simple clockwork of the universe, was that fear? When Mother Teresa thought she saw God in works of charity, was that fear? When John Muir thought he saw God in what he took to be the awesome harmony of nature, was that fear? He certainly didn't express it that way (as fear) in his writings. As Paul said, it was an expression of the sublime. Undoubtedly fear and anxiety play a role in the development of religion. They also play a role in the development of science. What does it add to the discussion to say "science is a product of evolution and is based on fear". That statement seems as "true" to me (and as empty) as the equivalent one about religion.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 22, 2018 - 07:19am PT
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Science as a sophisticated way of overcoming fear. Interesting concept.
Meanwhile a I think it's presumptuous to presume that "for tens of thousands of years fear was a far more pervasive emotion than your quite civilized notions of the sublime". Anthropologists and archaeologists struggle mightily to understand what might have been going on in the brains of our forebears depending on brain size, convolutions etc. I haven't however, heard any of them claim they know, although the advent of fire control and stone tools begins to give us hints.
Personally, I think fear is probably more common to modern humans who are so much less self sufficient than the ancients and who deal with a much more complex world where many more things can go wrong over which we have no control.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 22, 2018 - 07:30am PT
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Isn't it fascinating that in the process of human evolution the evolutionary product of god is ubiquitous?
maybe, but the western concept of god is relatively recent. As a source of inspiration, even Newton had set the role of The Creator back to "the beginning" when He let his Creation "go," our role being to uncover all of the "mechanism" and art that went into it.
I have no doubt that some scientists today receive inspiration from this thought, not as many as even a few human generations ago.
As physical cosmology displaces religious cosmology, as questions regarding the origin of the human species are resolved, and even as we come to an understanding of "mind," the scientific explanations displace the religious ones.
If you cannot see how evolution might provide a lesson in human morals and ethics perhaps it is because this sort of view point puts the responsibility for our actions squarely on us as individuals. To some extent we have choices in our actions, but largely what is "good" and what is "bad" has a lot to do with the consequences of those actions in the context of life on the planet.
The view point of one who believes that humans are the "crown of creation" will justify human action quite differently than the view point of one who sees humans as a part of the intricate web of life, a web whose extent is not just what encompasses all of our planet today, but one that also stretches back in time to its beginning.
From that view point looking into the future, as our species has the capability to do, we clearly see what is in store.
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WBraun
climber
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May 22, 2018 - 07:35am PT
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Seriously? You do understand there was a time before pencils, oil paintl and watercolors when man was prey as often as predator?
That before man controlled fire he lived in darkness? That before medicine man was savaged by disease?
More brainwashed horsesh!t from the mental speculator ....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 22, 2018 - 07:52am PT
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Interesting article in the Guardian.
Humans just .01% of all life but have destroyed 83% of wild mammals - study
Humankind is revealed as simultaneously insignificant and utterly dominant in the grand scheme of life on Earth by a groundbreaking new assessment of all life on the planet.
The world’s 7.6 billion people represent just 0.01% of all living things, according to the study. Yet since the dawn of civilisation, humanity has caused the loss of 83% of all wild mammals and half of plants, while livestock kept by humans abounds.
The new work is the first comprehensive estimate of the weight of every class of living creature and overturns some long-held assumptions. Bacteria are indeed a major life form – 13% of everything – but plants overshadow everything, representing 82% of all living matter. All other creatures, from insects to fungi, to fish and animals, make up just 5% of the world’s biomass.
The new work reveals that farmed poultry today makes up 70% of all birds on the planet, with just 30% being wild. The picture is even more stark for mammals – 60% of all mammals on Earth are livestock, mostly cattle and pigs, 36% are human and just 4% are wild animals.
The destruction of wild habitat for farming, logging and development has resulted in the start of what many scientists consider the sixth mass extinction of life to occur in the Earth’s four billion year history. About half the Earth’s animals are thought to have been lost in the last 50 years.
But comparison of the new estimates with those for the time before humans became farmers and the industrial revolution began reveal the full extent of the huge decline. Just one-sixth of wild mammals, from mice to elephants, remain, surprising even the scientists. In the oceans, three centuries of whaling has left just a fifth of marine mammals in the oceans.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/21/human-race-just-001-of-all-life-but-has-destroyed-over-80-of-wild-mammals-study
The average lifespan of a mammalian species is about 4 million years and humans are coming up on that number just now.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 22, 2018 - 08:11am PT
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the statement "so and so is a product of evolution" approaches something like a near-empty tautology
Just the sort of human weakness I find endearing, and beautiful. Not your statement but the one you quote.
As a companion to a dog I watch as she sniffs a fern, a hydrant, a juniper, and then pees where the previous dog did.
Much like we do, here. I believe that perspective elevates her behaviour rather than diminishes ours.
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WBraun
climber
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May 22, 2018 - 08:17am PT
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Yeah modern people are so far separated from their own reality that they have actually devolved into weak minded brainwashed fools masquerading themselves as advanced.
They are destroying themselves with their own st00pid technology that they masquerade as an advancement of humanity ....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 22, 2018 - 09:13am PT
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The destruction of wild habitat for farming, logging and development has resulted in the start of what many scientists consider the sixth mass extinction of life to occur in the Earth’s four billion year history. About half the Earth’s animals are thought to have been lost in the last 50 years.
evolution in progress... generally after mass extinction events life on the planet rebounds with exuberance, so we can keep that thought in mind, for what that is worth, it's unlikely that humans will chart the outcome (or any other species).
Interestingly, I think, humans will not escape the fundamental dilemma presented by our evolutionary inheritance, that is, we crave certain foods and we reproduce, and we will continue to do both until the planets ecosystem cannot sustain it. How very ironic that we know exactly how it will all end, and cannot and will not take action to prevent it.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 22, 2018 - 10:47am PT
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Do you think it's just coincidence that Christianity sees the behavior of humanity as responsible for the corruption of nature and modern western science sees the behavior of humanity as responsible for the corruption of nature? Romantic philosophy, a kind of substitute for Christianity, declares the same. Very hard, even for science, to escape those ingrained systems of thought that go back centuries. Nevertheless, the planet will survive and life will survive with us or without us. Let's hope it's with us as it's the very special nature of the human mind that might possibly discover what this is all about anyway.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 22, 2018 - 10:55am PT
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There is a more or less specific definition of an extinction event and of extinctions in general:
Extinction occurs at an uneven rate. Based on the fossil record, the background rate of extinctions on Earth is about two to five taxonomic families of marine animals every million years. Marine fossils are mostly used to measure extinction rates because of their superior fossil record and stratigraphic range compared to land animals.
Therefore, oddly enough, it could be quite possible for humans to render the minimum extinction qualification of two marine tax families, in relatively short order-- and yet within a million year time period, either due to remedial actions or the extinction of humans themselves, the two tax families could conceivably return, albeit somewhat altered. They could as well be organically replaced in part or in whole.
At any rate, here is cause for sober reflections:
More than 99 percent of all species, amounting to over five billion species,[1] that ever lived on Earth are estimated to be extinct.[2][3][4] Estimates on the number of Earth's current species range from 10 million to 14 million,[5] of which about 1.2 million have been documented and over 86 percent have not yet been described.[6] More recently, in May 2016, scientists reported that 1 trillion species are estimated to be on Earth currently with only one-thousandth of one percent described.[7]
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corruption of nature?
Very quaintly put.
Rousseau?
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