What is "Mind?"

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 17621 - 17640 of total 22193 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2017 - 12:28pm PT
Ed asks: "how do I come to that understanding?"

At best I can offer my own experience and my experience with thousands of others over the last 42 years of working on this million dollar question.

Earlier Ed asked about "drawing the line" between observer and observed.

First understand that most every meditator, no matter the modality, is going to begin with working on this apparent dichotomy. That is, WHAT we perceive (what I call "content"), and the apparent agency (for lack of a better word) that perceives. Ed said that in his experience, he could somehow posit the "line" wherever he choose to, and I am uncertain what he means by this, or by his experience of positing this line - or at any rate - positioning this line becoming an "absurd" drill.

I'm unsure how to address this experience of Ed's because of the many challenges I faced in meditation, this has not been one of them. My guess here - and it's only an educated guess - is that at some fundamental level of perception, Ed is conflating content with awareness of that content. But how to explain this?

One way to approach this is to realize that conscious content (thoughts, feelings, sensations and memories/plans) can to lesser or greater extents be perceived discretely. That is, we can be aware of a thought or feeling, say, as a discrete perception "out there." We can to some extent objectify a feeling, and in fact, much of talk therapy and intimate conversation with another human being involves doing so and putting words to thoughts and feelings and so on. Put differently, we can effectively get "behind" content to the extent that we can talk about it in discrete terms, whereby my feelings of excitement, for example, can be teased out of the welter of experience as different from my thoughts about Half Dome or my sensation of a mosquito bite or my memories of living in Upland as a child.

Above and beyond the WHAT I am "looking at" discretely, is the fact that I am aware of looking at that thought or feeling, and the fact that awareness and WHAT I am aware of are not selfsame. To my experience, it is indeed "absurd" to imagine or posit the WHAT of awareness - the content we ARE aware of - with BEING aware. What's more, while I can to some extent get behind content, so long as I am working in the duality perspective of perceptions/perceiving, it is impossible to get behind awareness itself. That is, I cannot stand outside of awareness as I stand outside of a thought or feeling, say, and comment on awareness from any degree of remove, whereby "I" am here and awareness is "out there."

My sense of Ed's question is that within the dualistic perspective, the line between WHAT is perceived and perception has not experientially been differentiated to his satisfaction, whereby the "lines" between perceive and that-which-is-perceived remains muddled.

In my experience, this line starts to naturally assert itself to the extent that Ed starts to achieve some separation from the content of his mind, a process universally known as detachment. That is, as our awareness slowly become unfused or when our awareness is no longer so enmeshed WITH content, the field in which content arises (awareness) becomes increasingly tangible whereby before the detachment process gets rolling, awareness and WHAT we are aware of - as well as Ed's "line" - seem arbitrary distinctions.

And lastly, John says, once again: "spiritual fiction."

What, specifically, did you read in Fehmi that smacked of "spiritual" effects, and what, specifically, did you find "fictional." And when you say, "But here the practitioner can actually have an experience that he can postulate is at least a partial answer." The work, once you grope past the duality POV is to explore what lies BEFORE our experience of things, objects, concepts, and perception itself. This is not some "thing" that we can imagine discursively. At least I never could, and like all adventures, the outcome is totally unknown beforehand. I had a hell of a time even getting started on this part of the exploration because by nature I think first, and always look for discursive "answers."



jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 19, 2017 - 04:12pm PT
I was referring to my AofD experience, not something on the WOT.


JL: The work, once you grope past the duality POV is to explore what lies BEFORE our experience of things, objects, concepts, and perception itself

So, although you are in a realm before "perception itself" you are able to perceive this astounding experience. I suppose this is where you might say that logical or discursive thought is irrelevant. Unfortunately, logical and discursive conversations are all that's available on ST. Metaphysical and spiritual musings come across through these discussions as religious convictions, even though they may not be.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
Metaphysical and spiritual musings come across through these discussions as religious convictions, even though they may not be.


Let's assume you are aware of discursive/quantitative material as occupying a realm of reality, however you might define it. Is it possible for you to imagine anything or non thing that lies outside the discursive/quantitative realm that is NOT a conviction, is NOT "religious" (no idea what you mean by that), and is not metaphysical is the sense that metaphysical is theoretical?

MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 19, 2017 - 05:36pm PT
Let's assume you are aware of discursive/quantitative material as occupying a realm of reality, however you might define it. Is it possible for you to imagine anything or non thing that lies outside the discursive/quantitative realm that is NOT a conviction, is NOT "religious" (no idea what you mean by that), and is not metaphysical is the sense that metaphysical is theoretical?


There are no wrong answers.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Oct 19, 2017 - 05:57pm PT
What lies beneath and before the data, the map, the perception? Jumping into those deep waters is the work, and part of that work is dealing with the mind that says, "You have it wrong."

Its seems you have lots of work ahead of 'you,' then.

DMT
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 19, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
Much of what we see on this thread is a kind of last ditch effort to posit naturalism as the end-all, and in extreme cases, the ONLY valid methodology of trying to wrangle down the mysteries of what mind really and truly IS.

actually no, the idea of a physical approach is to see how far you can push that approach before it can be demonstrated that it will not work... so the demise of the process is a part of the process, and well defined.


this is lacking in your approach, as you cannot imagine it being wrong, or even demonstrating that it is wrong.

a major difference.

As for "the line," the absurdity is well known to the very philosophers that you like to quote, but my guess is that there is a line, and that it has to do with the compartmentalization of the behaviors of the brain, in particular, there really is an observer behavior, we all are familiar with it... and it can be as clueless as to what is happening in our mind as we are... even though this seems difficult to believe.

Yet, Nash experienced it, as do people who confabulate as an abnormal behavior of the brain...

So by hypothesizing the physically possible actualizations of brain behavior, based on our understanding of brain physiology, these apparently paradoxical issues are resolved.

The mind is perceived as monolithic, but that is our perception of mind, not mind.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 19, 2017 - 08:07pm PT
JL: Is it possible for you to imagine anything or non thing that lies outside the discursive or quantitative realm that is NOT a conviction, is NOT "religious" (no idea what you mean by that), and is not metaphysical is the sense that metaphysical is theoretical?


Sometimes I imagine the moon is made of green cheese.

Other times I imagine Hamlet is a celery stalk and Lady Macbeth is a moldy cucumber.

But I digress into frivolity. Pay attention to Ed, a poster of substance.

(Although I suspect he and his colleagues are wrong about the aether!)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 19, 2017 - 09:33pm PT
...are wrong about the aether!

ether? not wrong about that...

Raoul Duke: "We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a saltshaker half-full of cocaine, and a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers... Also, a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether, and two dozen amyls. Not that we needed all that for the trip, but once you get locked into a serious drug collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can. The only thing that really worried me was the ether. There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge, and I knew we'd get into that rotten stuff pretty soon."

Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Oct 20, 2017 - 04:28am PT
Largo

Learning how to move out of the emergency mode of narrow objective attention and into the relaxed, alert attention of open focus is a crucial skill.

The mind maps you have posted by Fehmi may well be another visual way to display the orthogonality? of two polar ways of thinking but those ways of thinking were described in 1990 in Flow Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi in chapter 10 The Making of Meaning. Likely they had been described much earlier?

Obviously we know the focus of mind as part of flow in climbing skill development but that focus is only one aspect of what a mind set with a purpose will make use of to reach goals. Mihaly talks of integration and differentiation mind skills whereas Fehmi labels the differentiation side as Judgement and keeps the integration label. And of course he has a line [area] as Optimization of Function but the subtitle of Flow is The Psychology of Optimal Experience.


Mihalyi thinks the mind will self organize as we solidify our purpose and these lesser known mind skills will come about naturally. Successful development of these broader mind skills are substantiated with many biographical sketches -- his style. There is no mention of meditation and meditation is not needed to develop the skills the Fehmi maps displays.

Maybe you have gotten some of these broader mind skills with meditation and likely mine come about from having a mind with purpose.

Clearly meditation is not the only way to get instant access to these additional? mind skills. One can learn the mental gymnastics to quickly change to another mode of thinking in waking life -- "a crucial skill" -- some say.

Mihalyi is not a schematic making person. His style is all words but mine is not as schematics show connectedness quite well -- to wit my Devils Tower guide book. When there are only words you make the mental images of what the text means. I have met a few people who do not like the schematic style but must have words to understand -- do they lack a form of spatial skills? Such people may find the Fehmi mind maps worthless?
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Oct 20, 2017 - 04:46am PT
And after the essence of everything had exchanged itself for words and became another being and could even be summoned from the far distance we chanted a spell of names and we said "mountain be our friend" and we said "River guard us from enemies" And we said what it seemed the gods themselves might say if we had dreamed them and they had dreamed us from their high places and they spoke to us in the forest from the river and the mountain and the mouths of the ochre-painted dead had speech again and the waters spoke and the speech had words and our children remembered

Verse by Al Purdy, ranted in the street by a homeless man, from Bruce Cockburn's song "3 Al Purdys".
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Oct 20, 2017 - 06:27am PT
Ed

The mind is perceived as monolithic, but that is our perception of mind, not mind.

And it obvious to some except Largo that his perception of mind, his bond fide 1st person take, is only a perception of mind and not mind.
WBraun

climber
Oct 20, 2017 - 08:05am PT
Dingus McGee -- "One can learn the mental gymnastics ..."


Yes, this is 100% true.

This is exactly what the gross materialists scientists do.

But that is 100% NOT the way to the truth and that's why the gross materialist's knowledge will always remain ultimately completely inconclusive .......
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 20, 2017 - 08:15am PT
Welcome to ST, Al Purdy. Heard a lot about you on CBC Radio.

The spoken and written word have tremendous power. I recently watched a bit of Shane Koyczan and he can make you cry.

It is wonderful what happens to us when we read. Although Sycorax corrects us, I prefer to think about how much literature means to her.
WBraun

climber
Oct 20, 2017 - 08:19am PT
Although Sycorax corrects us

It's actually good she does.

When I went to college, I got good grades in my major and got a D in English.

I'm st00pid with English. I'm not a mental gymnastics person :-)
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 20, 2017 - 08:24am PT
I'm not a mental gymnastics person :-)


But you are quite a coach.
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Oct 20, 2017 - 10:31am PT
Imagine grading the same atrocious essays of high schoolers or undergrads for thirty years. Imagine seeing the same careless errors over and over again. You might become embittered. You might yearn to ridicule your students with snarky marginalia.

I would hazard to guess that most of those posting here are not writing second or third drafts before hitting the “Post this Reply” button. Sometimes an error can be caused by an autocorrect feature, or typing it out on a phone, or it may just be a careless error. But even if one does care enough to quickly scan one’s post before tapping the button, he or she may miss some errors because the mind is an unreliable narrator* which often persists in seeing what was meant rather than the error on the page.

Snark and ridicule is unlikely to re-teach these old dogs the old tricks. I wouldn’t get too worked up about punctuation, grammar or spelling errors as long as the meaning is communicated clearly enough.

For example:


ZB, if it comes down to Oscar Wilde's "Importance of Being Earnest," truth proves ambiguous since "Earnest" certainly isn't, passing as Jack for most of his life and for the duration of the play until closing lines.


The sentence above is a mess. “Earnest” isn’t truth? “Earnest” isn’t ambiguous? “Earnest” isn’t earnest? The writer’s referrent is ambiguous. And that clause at the end is awkward.




*unrepentantly egregious misuse of literary terminology

. )
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 20, 2017 - 12:36pm PT
Sycorax's sentence doesn't look that bad to me, but I'm no expert.


Thirty years in the classroom, teaching the same thing might take its toll.


I retired after 29 years, but I taught a variety of college courses. Even then I was burned out.



Edit:

John, does diffuse-immersed attention intersect with your empty awareness?


The arrows remind me of mathematical category theory, about which I know very little. That is, other than a joke someone made at the end of a talk many years ago. He said, "Just believe in category theory and we can prove anything!"
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 20, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
Control dynamics...



Tens of millions of years in the making.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Oct 20, 2017 - 06:20pm PT
This Is Your Brain on Prayer and Meditation

https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/your-brain-prayer-meditation-ncna812376

Meditation and prayer can trigger the release of the feel-good chemicals in the brain.

see the 7 Meditation chemicals

https://eocinstitute.org/meditation/dhea_gaba_cortisol_hgh_melatonin_serotonin_endorphins/

While there’s certainly a sound argument to be made for the psychological benefits of prayer and meditation, one discussion that comes up often (especially among those who are agnostic or atheist), is around what prayer can actually do in the world [world]. How can we use it to not only center ourselves and self-soothe, but to take a positive action?

The key, Dr. Hokemeyer finds, is largely one of balance.

“The trick to balancing prayer with results is to recognize when is the time to pray/meditate and when is the time to go out and do something,” says Hokemeyer. “One of the purposes of prayer and meditation is to regain our footing so that we can step out into the world and take positive action: we reconnect, re-center, recharge and gain the strength necessary to take steps that will create real change. In other words, prayer is the fuel that lights the fire of action.”

Related
Brain Waves
BRAIN WAVES
What Happens In Your Brain While You Sleep
Dr. Anna Yusim, a psychiatrist and the author of "Fulfilled: How the Science of Spirituality Can Help You Live a Happier, More Meaningful Life," strongly recommends prayer and meditation, deeming them “wonderful and powerful tools,” but ones that are made all the more wonderful and powerful “when coupled with concerted action.”

A favorite meditation that Dr. Yusim recommends is the Loving-Kindness meditation, which blends breathing techniques with positive thoughts for all beings; she suggests that after you complete this meditation, you straighten up and ask yourself this question:

“What is one thing I can do to help somebody I love right now?”

Want more tips like these? NBC News BETTER is obsessed with finding easier, healthier and smarter ways to live. Sign up for our newsletter and follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram.


Meditation = prayer = therapy? = relief from boredom = acting like the Duck?
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 20, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
The arrows remind me of mathematical category theory, about which I know very little.



The arrows remind me of nursing theory we were taught in nursing school, about which I learned little.


Credit: MH2

Credit: MH2


A form of energy medicine, the Science of Unitary Human Beings is based on the idea that "human beings and environment are energy fields" that are characterized by "four-dimensionality", a "nonlinear domain without spatial or temporal attributes"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_E._Rogers





Messages 17621 - 17640 of total 22193 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta