Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2018 - 05:42pm PT
|
in 19497 posts Largo has rejected almost all of the ideas that come from science (I'd say all but I might have missed an agreement somewhere).
Largo also rejects most of the "woo" stuff too.
But aside from exhorting us on to practice meditative introspection and appealing to our intuition, there isn't much to go on from him, certainly nothing definite (pun intended).
And yet he persists.
Why?
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2018 - 06:04pm PT
|
Maybe Mr. Long just wants to be loved?
Don't we all, in some fantastic fashion.
“You have everything needed for the extravagant journey that is your life.
We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”
-Heuristic Dendral
"Understanding is a virtue, hard to come by
You can teach me how to love
If you'll only try; So please!
Don't give up so soon"
-ELIZA
Nothing but an electrical sign?
-Ready? Kilowatt
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2018 - 06:57pm PT
|
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2018 - 07:08pm PT
|
Maybe Mr. Long just wants to be loved?
That is a good answer, zBrown.
I have long been impressed by Ray Kurzweil, the man who ignored the dictum to not extrapolate exponential curves and the man who believes great things are coming. I am deeply impressed by his optimism. I don't share it.
Why would anyone want a machine to mimic a human? To win a bet, sure, but otherwise?
There have been significant advances in machine learning in the last 50 years.
Machines aren't likely to develop much understanding of human problems until they are faced with similar problems: avoiding death, finding love, etc.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2018 - 07:24pm PT
|
Robotics, pattern recognition and machine learning have made major strides for sure.
It's nice that a powerful computing device is monitoring my credit card usage and the patterns thereof. "It" even discovered that my card had been stolen/lost before I did (and asked a human to call me).
IT(not that one)
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
|
Machines aren't likely to develop much understanding of human problems until they are faced with similar problems: avoiding death, finding love, etc.
Exactly what I have been thinking. In fact, I was talking about this with my wife, Elizabeth, and she made a great connection. What if consciousness arose because of altruism rather than intelligence? I've read Richard Dawkin's, The Selfish Gene, at least twice and am familiar with the idea of altruism from the gene's-eye view. I just saw the most amazing show last night on PBS about arctic wolves. Clearly, they have feelings for their immediate pack members (but are ruthless with other wolf packs). I think that once you establish feelings, you are maybe well on your way to consciousness.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
|
lobster reacts to pain, but doesn’t actually feel it.
Money can't buy the help you need .....
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2018 - 08:56am PT
|
Machines aren't likely to develop much understanding of human problems until they are faced with similar problems: avoiding death, finding love, etc.
i.e. acting in the 'real' (whatever that is) world. Some folks recognized this 50 years ago, I believe.
As to getting machines to do what humans do, it was (is?) a good target to shoot for. AI folks were (are?) not too inclined to model cosmic consciousness, I believe.
Humans have learned a lot so far. It will be interesting to check in and see what they know in 200 years.
I was wondering whether any smart machine has invented a new computer language.
I am still, but this is interesting if you have an hour and one half.
Does anyone recall the phrase "no chuck", as in I ain't lying/kidding?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2018 - 11:45am PT
|
I was looking forward to deconstructing what Ed and Yonkeeee said then a neighbor's dog bit the sh#t out of my arm and I spent two hours getting the wound cleaned and stitched up at the OR.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
|
Hope it heals up for ya fast. At least it wasn't a case of man bites dog.
I've dealt with a lot of dogs in my time, especially when I was a paper boy. I have never been bitten.
You can actually speak to them. Whether they understand is an open question, but like I said ... never ...
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2018 - 02:56pm PT
|
Good honest post, JL.
When it comes to dogs, I worry about human learning. I often go out with our daughter's dog, and although most encounters with other dogs are good, the rare exception must be kept in mind. Your experience should help others.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2018 - 03:40pm PT
|
Modern gross material scientists at work ......
|
|
i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2018 - 04:35pm PT
|
Sorry Largo, some dogs are like land sharks, all teeth!
|
|
yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2018 - 04:49pm PT
|
Been around dogs all my life and never been bitten. Been screwed over by human beings a number of times, though: robbed, lied to, cheated on, conned, stuff like that.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2018 - 03:06pm PT
|
Dog attacks. Do I know dog attacks:
My dog and I were out for a walk yesterday when we were accosted by an enormous Rotweiler. It was all I could do to dynamically position myself between my dog and the drooling monster, out in the middle of the street where we had desperately fled. Fortunately, the errant owner of the demon beast soon appeared to save the day. The chomping sound this 140 lb. biting-engine made was eerily similar to loudly clapping a couple of 2x4s together, and all imprecisely aimed at my dog's head. Thankfully imprecise.
After retrieving our composure we walked another block. As I approached the cross street I felt an intense stinging sensation on my right Achilles' tendon . Looking down I could clearly see a bee in the process of delivering the dreaded stinger to my tender fetlock-- right through the sock. In front of an audience at the intersection I began dancing in pain as Chip looked on with a seemingly quizzical " WTFs going on now?"
Bees and Rotweilers, Rotweilers and bees.
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
|
And a moose is immune to pain.
And an island never cries.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2018 - 04:49pm PT
|
Toss up, "You know you're getting old" ... or here
An old Asian man I met advocated placing your walking stick vertically between you and your canine nemesis, however, while this maneuver works, this horizontal might also:
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2018 - 11:18am PT
|
Some interesting new work being done with a theory that's been around for some time:
AGING AS A FORM OF DEATH SPIRAL
From an evolutionary perspective, aging has been difficult to understand. Natural selection increases organismal fitness, and yet aging, which clearly decreases fitness, is not only observed, but also appears to be nearly universal within multicellular (and even some single‐celled) organisms. To address this dilemma, it was proposed that aging occurs and is fixed in populations because alleles that have deleterious effects in old age benefit growth, survival, and reproduction in youth. This theory is called antagonistic pleiotropy (AP) theory (Williams, 1957). In this view, aging occurs because alleles that in the short term are beneficial in solving problems in growth and reproduction serve to exacerbate the problem in the long run. Therefore, aging can be viewed as a form of death spiral.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5418193/
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2018 - 04:31pm PT
|
It occurs to me that the classic dualism of body and soul in philosophy closely mirrors the two separate variables that I think are most responsible for our consciousness and awareness; that is, feelings and intelligence. Feelings and intelligence are both products of evolution, and both use the hardware and software of the brain to do their processing. The end result of feelings is something that is "felt" in the nervous system over and above the mental states involved. Evolutionarily, I can see how feelings may have come first and then become the first causes for intelligence and consciousness.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!