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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 28, 2017 - 11:36am PT
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JL: For example, every so often the people in a given group have a session where one adept sits in front of the class and everyone gets to lambast him or her with questions and yell and scream and call him or her a poser and a phony who doesn't know sh#t and to go back to (fill in the blank)
The Unabomber:
"As a sophomore, Kaczynski participated in a study described by author Alton Chase as a "purposely brutalizing psychological experiment", led by Harvard psychologist Henry Murray. Subjects were told they would be debating personal philosophy with a fellow student, and were asked to write essays detailing their personal beliefs and aspirations. The essays were turned over to an anonymous attorney, who in a later session would confront and belittle the subject – making "vehement, sweeping, and personally abusive" attacks – using the content of the essays as ammunition, while electrodes monitored the subject's physiological reactions. These encounters were filmed, and subjects' expressions of rage were later played back to them repeatedly.[19] The experiment ultimately lasted three years, with someone verbally abusing and humiliating Kaczynski each week.[20][21] Kaczynski's lawyers later attributed his hostility towards mind control techniques to this experience.[19] Chase[6][22] and others[23][24] have also suggested that this experience may have motivated Kaczynski's criminal activities, while philosopher Jonathan D. Moreno has said that Kaczynski's later bombing campaign can "by no means be laid at Harvard's door"."
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 11:48am PT
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From a review of Moreno's book
Moreno does not simplistically attribute all of Kaczynski’s behaviors to this event, but he does speculate on the impact of “a psychological experiment that … involved psychological torment and humiliation that could have left deep scars” over a period of three years.
\\\
Hmmm...
Inevitably, [ST?] researchers of exotic technologies experience a condition called “strangeness,” a kind of cognitive dissonance, and have to push against it to reestablish clear boundaries
“What we don’t know is so much bigger than we are.” — A Haitian Proverb
http://www.thiemeworks.com/a-review-of-mind-wars-brain-research-and-national-defense-by-jonathan-d-moreno/
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2017 - 01:48pm PT
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Ed, I think I can speak for the whole group in expressing our gratitude for your posts. They show a person who is taking the while issue seriously, brings big scientific game to the table and takes the time to logically and thoroughly present the ideas expressed there in.
But let me take a stab at part of what you said:
Behavior is measurable, quantifiable and is probably the most important expression in social groups of our intentions. It doesn't take much thought to realize that these expressions of intentions can be misinterpreted, that we can provide false expressions to elicit desirable acts of others, etc., etc.
From an evolutionary point of view, behavior is an expression of our genetic makeup, and is subject to pressures from natural and sexual selection.
Finally, behavior is generalized from the observation of others to the more subjective acts of introspection.
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While I agree with most of what you have said, it should be pointed out that this was roughly the tact taken by behavioralism, which was later junked, for several reasons.
First, it sought to understand EVERYTHING about human existence by virtue of observable behavior (function) - first, during the evolutionary track it followed to exist at a given point in space and time, second, what happened (input/cause) at a given point in time, and how a given person responded (output/effect). It sought to "explain" existence from a 3rd person "objective" point of view, ignoring or seeking to explain consciousness itself AS a behavior or more simply as a functional computation that rendered a metric of some kind.
Consider the standard definition of behavior:
behaviour
1. the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially towards others.
synonyms: conduct, way of behaving, way of acting, deportment, bearing, etiquette; More
2. the way in which an animal or person behaves in response to a particular situation or stimulus.
plural noun: behaviours; plural noun: behaviors
"the feeding behaviour of predators"
3. the way in which a machine or natural phenomenon works or functions.
In other words, behaviorism is a 3rd person take on what consciousness IS in terms of location and velocity, so to speak, and by this method has simply swapped out a quark with “consciousness,” and applied the same techniques to see what it “was.” That is, what IS, is strictly a matter of measuring and predicting what it will do. There is nothing more.
Inherent in this tact are several first assumptions: First, consciousness can be fully know and explained by way of examining the functional tasks it carries out, and second, there is nothing more to consciousness than functional, determined tasking itself.
This can lead people to believe that every aspect of consciousness is learned, which can be further explained by way of machine learning or machine registration. That is, consciousness is fully explained by way of information processing – how the brain mechanically intakes information, and combined with genetic coding (bio info), mechanically produces an output in the form of a behavior.
Here we have described a syntactic engine. A machine. Problem is that this description does not account for the semantic quotient of understanding nor yet the fact that we are aware of anything, including our own illusions about what is happening. As mentioned, no matter how “intelligent” a machine is, it is not aware of being a machine, and it does not consciously understand what it is doing.
While it is true that a huge part of consciousness is learned in terms of content and functionality, awareness itself is not learned, nor does it ripen as consciousness matures and provides an ever richer experience and understanding of our lives.
Now the interesting thing is that it was discovered long ago that one process by which a person comes to know what consciousness itself involves consciously abandoning all effort to search or find or evaluate the content of mind (memories, feelings, sensations, thoughts etc.) and to simply observe. At first, and probably for a good long while, your attention will be absorbed in WHAT the brain is doing as it churns along on full autopilot. No effort is made to change the content, to move either toward or away from whatever mechanically arises.
One could still consider this in terms of tasking if that is how you frame “observing.” But after a while, probably years, the mind starts to settle and the provisional “I” falls away and there is no longer a subject doing a task called “observing,” there is simply effortless awareness.
This process, so far as I can tell, marks the shift from a digital perspective, so to speak, to an analogue perspective that has nothing whatsoever to do with information, behavior, outputs, or processing. It is marked by a total absence of DOING, tasking, or intention. It is the opposite of the discrete realm of THINGS, functions and doing. Here, I believe, is the continuous and the uncaused.
My sense of it is the continuous is the flip side of the discrete, and consciousness, as well as reality, is the seamless existence of both.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 28, 2017 - 02:05pm PT
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My sense of it is the continuous is the flip side of the discrete, and consciousness, as well as reality, is the seamless existence of both.
Aha.
On the long-running evidence from Largo and MikeL, it seems best to steer clear of their type of meditation.
But it could be only that they are anomalies.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 02:21pm PT
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From an evolutionary perspective, we can account for our strong feelings of retribution...
To what extent should these feelings...
(a) continue to guide us in our relations with those who have harmed us?
(b) continue to shape our laws?
I've quoted Cleopatra here before on some old thread...
"I forgive you, dear, now drink the poison."
https://youtu.be/SwtkUa6IFZM?t=6m30s
I am a reconcilist. Like Cleopatra. :)
I've adopted a reconciliation between the competing contextual frames.
The insight is that we have here competing contextual frames (re causation, forgiveness, accountability). The skill (cognitive skill) is reconciling these competing frames. We call this multi-scale cognitive reconciliation.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 03:38pm PT
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"So, bear with me, HFCS...I've been thinking a lot about the whole long-term memory through time aspect of mind ... It's your long-term memory and associated algorithms that seem most likely to be the major contributor to who you are in a moral sense..."
eeyonkee, so it sounds like you are focusing on the nervous system's long term memory's influence on both (a) decision making and (b) morals. Do I have this right?
You are interested in its role - as input - to the decision-making module, the morals module and ultimately, I'm guessing, to the agent's volition (will) and responsibility (which were the core subjects of our earlier conversation).
The role of long term memory - and the fact that it is always changing, even always growing, is your interest of focus at this point?
How does this change the fundamentals, though? I remain a little confused on why the long term memory component of the nervous system has you enamored by it so.
...
Thanks for reminding me Gazzaniga was a Gifford Lecturer - I totally spaced that out despite having seen the episodes before. Pretty good lecture: Overall grade: B. (For the famous historical Gifford lecture series, I think on numerous counts he could have presented better - so falls short of a Grade A, imo.)
...
A will that is free?
"Free From What?"  Gazzaniga, E4
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 28, 2017 - 04:51pm PT
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there is simply effortless awareness
What sort of awareness takes effort? Reading one of sycorax's WOT literary pieces?
My sense of it is the continuous is the flip side of the discrete, and consciousness, as well as reality, is the seamless existence of both
All those years of forcing one's self to not think. Takes its toll.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
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re determinism, volition and (social) responsibility
re multi-scale cognitive shifting (aka multi-scale frame shifting)
re: competing contextual frames, multi-scale reconciliation
QT So in this new thinking, you can forgive in one frame (biological determinism) and blame in another (social biological gaming, game theory), do I have that right?
ANS Yes.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 06:59pm PT
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+ Gill
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 28, 2017 - 08:40pm PT
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If everything is determined, it is from a plan that allows wonderful loopiness.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2017 - 08:43pm PT
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That plan IS never ever loopiness, nor has it ever been nor will it ever be.
The only loopiness is the observer who is far away from the mountain top looking thru tinted broken glasses ......
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 29, 2017 - 06:18am PT
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Cowboys and Preppies
there is an underlying assumption that seems to have been missed in the digital vs analog discussion:
In the digital world of all our digital creations, these devices need a continuous power source -- lithium batteries and the likes of continuous power supplies to work-- Continuous at some timescale.
Are electric current & fields continuous or the digital flow of electrons?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 29, 2017 - 07:01am PT
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Ed,
I would have a few things to say about your thoughtful post, but I perhaps this might be simplest and most direct:
Ed: . . . both the physics of the "causing" stuff and of thermodynamics is well established.
We should be clear (or at least remember) what is most often meant by the term “well established.”
MH2: . . . it could be only that [Mike and Largo's claims about seeing] are anomalies.
Everything is an anomaly, my friend. Research shows us, at least, that every perception is selective and biased. Close and careful observation can show that to anyone. Not this or that; not this and that; neither not-this nor not not-that. Putting anything into a box with an interpretation is a construction.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 29, 2017 - 08:16am PT
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I like both articulations...
a) If everything is determined, it is from a plan that allows wonderful loopiness.
b) If everything is determined, it is from a (underlying) ruleset that allows wonderful loopiness.
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Lennox, it's nice to know we have another here who knows what "bayesian" means.
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ad hoc world ("after the fact")
Gazzaniga, in one of his Gifford Lecture episodes, mentioned living in an "ad hoc world" or "ad hoc universe". I have never used this particular articulation; nor had I ever heard it before, I don't think. I really like it. :)
For intelligent beings, what does it mean to grow up in an ad hoc solar system?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 29, 2017 - 09:41am PT
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Everything is an anomaly
My close and careful observation does not agree with this. Neither does plain English. A further sign that meditation smooths the cortex.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 29, 2017 - 12:06pm PT
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The pigeon as particle filter
Well, if someone says so.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 29, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
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Lennox, it's nice to know we have another here who knows what "bayesian" means
My dad was a Bayesian statistician, but I never looked into the subject beyond occasionally teaching Bayes Theorem to undergraduate business students.
It's hard to form a judgement on those research posts. Since they come out of Berkeley I assume they are worthy, although I once had a grant through the Air Force Office of Scientific Research that supported a pretty insignificant little project I was doing.
I can't read that dense, wordy stuff much anymore - puts me to sleep.
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