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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 23, 2017 - 02:45pm PT
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Get some awareness for your blunders!
He has that, he just doesn't let it bother him.
A previous JL post: We're all wrong about stuff all the time.
And not above contradicting himself:
And yet people still believe with all their hearts that we are simply guessing or speculating on these issues, that nothing is really and truly known.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2017 - 03:20pm PT
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The Absolute Truth always knows everything and is NEVER ever wrong.
The gross materialists know nothing and are always wrong until the Absolute Truth reveals itself ......
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 24, 2017 - 03:49am PT
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Largo,
you are back to making up crap again. I have never given one clue about what I have experienced in my various subjective states including those of meditation other than I have said, "Been there, Done that". I have no need to communicate any of these experiences and if I would I would likely come across as a person coming off a drug trip or someone whose life would be better suited to a monastery.
I have been to a few meditation retreats and seen meditators with the likes of MikeL's behavior, not being able to understand what it means to say, "Let's have pork and beans." I call that state a meditation stupor and those were superficial in that those people once again gained the ability to carry wood and chop water. As for MikeL, if he wants to forever hangout there in such a trance, maybe he is suited to monastery life?
Largo,
My sense is you are totally clueless at what he is driving at, based on your own experiences with introspection, which apparently have been both superficial and trance like.
This is a non-sense statement in that the writer has used the words ... based on your own experiences ... which in no ways conveys how the writer got to know ...your own experiences ... Is this how you use creative writing skills to attempt a rebuttal and ignore details that no evidence was ever offered to you? You would be the one that has no clues. Good try you big Jackass.
You say trance like. I have said that what I gained from meditation [maybe from doing it?] was the ability to get into a few meditation states while awake for a brief interval. This time interval is about as opposite as one can get from being in a trance-like state. I can get into one of these meditation states between the ax swings of chopping wood. But those states are not where MikeL resides.
You constantly offer the advise, take the adventure, implying doing meditation. Well I say to you, take the adventure, get to where you can entertain a meditative state while awake and chopping wood. Quit meditating, you can have those states while awake. Take the adventure ... and then you can say, Been there, Done that.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2017 - 03:50am PT
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Fruitcake, it'd be interesting to hear your take on postmodernism. Seems a little out of your wheelhouse, but hey, that never stopped you. And while you're at it, make a pass at deconstruction and post-structuralism.
I doubt Mike would call himself a postmodern advocate because the movement was so chock full of posers and flim flam, but their general drift was worth noting and of course would run counter to a personality type who's bought in lock, stock and barrel to the promise of facts.
However it is almost certainly mistaken to believe Mike's words about not knowing were derived from Heidegger, Derrida (a peerless double talker in my opinion), Foucault, Lyotard, Rorty, Baudrillard...
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 24, 2017 - 06:40am PT
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Largo: . . . so long as the posts are honest and measured and logical, as Ed's usually are.
I could not agree more. Substance, equanimity, usually well-articulated and er, . . . “objective.” :-D
John has articulated an important point in his post, IMO. If we’re doing some science anywhere, we’re going to have to follow the rules to talk with one another fruitfully. Many people here know what those rules are. We not only need to be logical and mostly rational, but we need to be systematically observant, test, say no more that what our data suggest, and be somewhat self-reflective (honest and courageous) about what we’re up to. Not unlike some other honored efforts, we probably need to recognize that we’re playing a game of sorts, albeit somewhat seriously. (At the moment, I’m thinking “parenting” as one example of another game.)
On the other hand, there are some areas of interest and conversation that are not exactly rational and logical, and I should think that anyone in an artistic endeavor would relate to. I’ve been conversing with my sister who’s a shrink for children in Germany for the military. We’ve been conversing about the lack of emotional attachment of young people these days. So much seems to fall outside of plain, technical, functional orientations and physical material goals. Here’s what she wrote to me this morning:
------------------
Alienation tends to be a greater focus these days, at least in the field of psychiatry. We are seeing more aggressive responses from those who feel there is nothing to connect to in the world. Psychology focuses on the theme of “attachment” - which is defined in many different contexts. The popular one in child psychiatry is the ability to attach affectionately and intimately with others. When attachment is lacking, then the underlying impulses of a person/child in conflict rages through. I see children who have more things but very few close relationships with peers, their parents or family. In my limited experience in practice (hospital and clinic work) these children are indiscriminately violent at an early age toward family, toward peers and toward authority figures. They are charming when things are going well and they ID is pleased but when they experience a limit or they anticipate they may have to wait, to accept no, to listen or take a path that is chosen by another they become seething with rage.
I look at this and I wonder “why” this is occurring when they come from families that economically healthy and from parents who care. Yet, when I look deeply I find there is a pattern of “pleasing” more than relating to each other. Parents also give mixed messages. They smile when they are trying to correct or to say no, even when they are hurt by the words of their child/teen. I find in families there is less talk about thoughts, about perspectives, about the world in general and those in need or in conflict. The world and the words I hear from families (maybe young ones more) is about demands, gratification, entertainment and the dreaded word “bored”. l am told by some adults that if only their child/ teen was stimulated intellectually they would not act in this manner. But I think this is a false trail. Being stimulated or challenged does not always mean we are engaged more or closer to each other. It is closeness, affection, expression of thought and feelings that I find so many people are afraid to express for fear of rejection or dismissal from others. I also find people can not “ignore” the comments or imagined slights from others and see their self-separate from this. It’s as if they world is defined in part by whether they can please others. There is not a self- only a reflection of what others demands or want from them. Hence the self is defined by social media, by a fantasy, by social or workplace status. It reminds me of Narcissus looking into the pool of water and only seeing ripples and no more.
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What? Narcissus!? Myth, narratives, unimportant issues and metaphors?
Mind seems to be at the center of all of this. At least of these last issues, subjectivity of mind appears to be key.
I gotta get to some welding this morning and then off to the in-laws for a dinner up north.
Best to you ALL. Happy Holidays.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2017 - 07:31am PT
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Psychology focuses on the theme of “attachment”
The root of attachment is "I am this material body"
We are NOT the material body, mind, brain etc.
The gross materialist modern scientists continually try to reinforce this illusion to the world due to their fundamental poor fund of knowledge of life itself.
The whole world operates under this illusion.and is caveman consciousness.
Just like mathematics, put the wrong numbers in from the start and your ultimate result will be defective ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 24, 2017 - 08:28am PT
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lol
I doubt Mike would call himself a postmodern advocate because the movement was so chock full of posers and flim flam,
You and MikeL have meaningful dialog?? and you do not even know he's postmodernist???!!! lol
Do you read his posts?! lol
...
MikeL, why not own it? Apparently it needs to be spelled out here very explicitly for a few to get it.
You're a postmodernist as much as Frank Graham is a creationist.
lol
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 24, 2017 - 08:34am PT
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Too good not to repost...
MikeL, why not own it? Apparently it needs to be spelled out here very explicitly for a few - or for ONE - to get it. lol
You're a postmodernist as much as Frank Graham is a creationist.
lol
...
You're a postmodernist as much as Frank Graham is a creationist.
And yet...
... "one or two science and math types" here** are apparently, plainly, patently, plain-as-day, clearly big-time fans of yours - despite your relentless, endless anti-objective, anti-science, anti-reason, anti-evidence, anti-progress ideology/obscurantism/double-talk.
"Hi, MikeL!"
** and meditator, lol
Where's MikeL?
Meanwhile we struggle with climate change, the teaching of evolution in schools confronted with anti-science pressures, the dumbing down of American politics, the prospect of a nuclear exchange started by two narcissistic dipshits, etc etc etc.
"It's easy to see why."
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2017 - 08:43am PT
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You sure are weird .....
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 24, 2017 - 09:35am PT
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from Mike L's post "They are charming when things are going well and they ID is pleased but when they experience a limit or they anticipate they may have to wait, to accept no, to listen or take a path that is chosen by another they become seething with rage."
I notice this in myself ; I don't like getting a NO.
Mike L's post " It is closeness, affection, expression of thought and feelings that I find so many people are afraid to express for fear of rejection or dismissal from others. I also find people can not “ignore” the comments or imagined slights from others and see their self-separate from this."
Yes the fear of intimacy and the attachment (personalization) to insults. See it in myself also.
I find "the work" can help with these mind habits; first recognize they are mind habits based on conditioning and then work on letting them go which IMO includes needing to see them and once you have seen them you have at least arrived at a place to begin the work of letting the fear and pain go. Much Easier said than done.
As always there are many ways to do the work .
TIME is a long running subject in Zen since Dogen wrote "The Time Being" Katagiri wrote a book about Dogen's "the time being"; I found it quite good.
When you sit enough retreats you will often come to point where you find yourself completely in the moment; rapped, as in rapture. It is quite startling because with it comes the perspective that prior you were NOT in the moment or truly present. Some of us can become very interested in that event. I say event because usually it is fleeting; but, it was distinct. It is a strong clue or "wake up" call that there is an unconditional view (POV) that can be actualized. Zen Master Seung Sahn would say enlightenment is easy to get and easy to lose. The conditioning is very deep and it takes work to see it and to not react to it.
How does this relate to" what is mind" and pork and beans? Is it not all Mind? As for P&B I don't eat them (swore off eating pigs) so I can't really relate.
https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/for-the-time-being/ hoping this only pastes the address
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 24, 2017 - 10:12am PT
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...that in any meaningful way has contributed to human culture.
not sure about "human culture" but anything that gets me as perturbed as you seem to be is worth understanding "in a meaningful way."
If that umbrage is based on team loyalty then maybe you should take a deep breath and try to sort out the issues for yourself.
You don't like to be challenged at all, and this latest meltdown is just the most recent example of your lack of tolerance to anyone who might question you.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 24, 2017 - 10:17am PT
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I don't know what you mean, Ed.
There's no meltdown here and I love to be challenged.
Right now, I'm thinking about the time I challenged you over that
quibbling episode involving ohm's law. And who had
the meldown? lol
If you want to speak to any of the substantive points
I raise, why don't you.
Even better, why don't you speak to the anti-science nonsense
purveyors (MikeL, Largo) if not relentless shitposters (wB) on this thread.
Mysteriously, on this count, all we get is your silence.
It's more than a hobby of mine: When I read the "grand-sounding, admittedly captivating,
but completely nonsensical bs" here I like to respond to it, re-post to it, as time and interest allow.
...
You don't like to be challenged at all, and this latest meltdown...
This is simply empty rhetoric.
Yes, "the anti-science nonsense purveyors (MikeL, Largo)" that you CONTINUOUSLY ENABLE week after week.
Perhaps if you had had a couple years of neuroscience, control engineering etc you might
be better able to relate to the pushback against the nonsense woo on this thread?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2017 - 10:36am PT
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The only sh!t talker right now is YOU HFCS.
Such a pretentious anonymous aszhole you are ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 24, 2017 - 10:39am PT
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Such a pretentious aszhole you are ..... -WBraun
Pretentious? Really? Do you even know what the word means?
Yeah, and I'm having the meltdown? ;)
...
Yet, Hartouni chooses his battle with me.
I am critical of posts re "beaker boys" "sausages" "boners" ... postmodernism... endless attacks of "stoopid gross materialists"... and Hartouni chooses his battles with me. Go figure.
...
Here, 30 seconds of searching...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1593650&tn=13419
"Enter the postmodern, artistic soul.
Postmodernism has always been cultural and aesthetic. The postmodernist tends to seek and find enchantment in life. Postmodernists’ interests concern a sense of fashion, often focusing on images, styles, tropes, etc. The individual is encouraged to become fragmented, rather than conform to one monotheistic being or another, or to act with consistent reasons in every moment. Instead, we would rather transcend all monotheisms and live each moment without the “dominance of any one regime of truth.” We see no one lifestyle—only living to the thrill of the current here and now. Postmodern subjects (i.e., me) hence becomes de-centered, groundless, and polytheistic (seeing gods and goddesses in everything). I see the individual (me, others that I know well) embedded as products in discourses and practices, but not necessarily centered in them. (Life is messy.) Postmodernists place value on being interesting rather than right, and we place high value on paradox, contrast, counter-intuition, relevance, and indeterminancy." -MikeL
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2515755&msg=3033287#msg3033287
HFCS: you ARE the true-blue postmodernist.
MikeL: You say that like it’s a bad thing.
Note how the postmodernist MO is to ALWAYS make sure to throw enough aphorisms, truisms, maxims and the like in EVERY paragraph as to suggest TO THE PERUSER the discourse is profound, deeply profound, and continuously, really and truly going somewhere. But where, after days, years, decades, does it go? Where does it go?
I mean, it's "cultural and aesthetic". Wow.
"We're just talking here." "Be well."
...
Perhaps one or two have already lost the plot?
Just in case...
I doubt Mike would call himself a postmodern advocate because the movement was so chock full of posers and flim flam... -Largo
Enjoy your meaningful discourse, you two. lol
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 24, 2017 - 11:33am PT
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It's more than a hobby of mine...
so you say.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
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I like Fruity. He's a zealot with steel blinders on but he does go after stuff with a vengeance and has provided many excellent links. So long as we don't forget he's the Elmer Fudd of this thread, with a resting blood pressure of 590/360 and a heartbeat like a rabbit. Poor feller is wound tighter than a golf ball. But we need a guy stirring the pot here and there.
Dingbat ... well, we know he's simply overmatched by the work and we accord him the good tidings we do a crazy uncle in the attic, huffing off a tube of glue, or that cousin with Down Syndrome. Anyone who would say of meditation, "been there, done that," is likely beyond retrieval. Imagine saying the same about climbing, or psychology, or physics. Serious practitioneers don't binge on something and declare the work over.
But Fruitcake, postmodernism did contribute a lot to the inteligensia, but Mike's insights about almost certainly didn't come from drunk Frenchies, rather from spending decades in the undifferentiated and knowing that whatever we say about the source is not the source itself, rather is derived from same, and in this sense is a narrative. These narratives allow us to work with the material in amazing ways, but if you were to ask people steeped in either the QM or subjective adventure worlds, none would tell you they "know" or can say what "it" actually is. As mentioned, the Zen expression is, "it's ungraspable." In QM, we have, "If you think you understand it, you don't." These paths cover internal and external terrain respectively, but the likeness of their conclusions are at least worth noting.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 24, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
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steel blinders... huffing... elmer fudd... that cousin with Down Syndrome (real trumpian of you)... dingbat... fruitcake...
a bit disappointed you missed the "bongwater" bit though
I like you too, Largo.
But I'll wait till the sh#t-posters (WB, Brennan, Blu, Sycorx, eg) feel the encouraging signal to riff off your disrespect before posting further something I want to ask you.
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