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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Dec 16, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
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As evidence for determinism in our thinking, I would point out the distribution of religious belief in the world. I don't even have to show a map. We all know that Islam is a religious belief that occurs predominantly (in a BIG way) in the Middle East and immediate surrounding areas. Within this very specific, largely-bounded, geographic area, something like 97 percent of the population believes in the tenets of Islam. I'm sorry, but I think this is much more consistent with pure determinism with respect to free will than with some kind of belief system that gives more power to personal responsibility than is deserved. Same goes with being a conservative or liberal in the U.S. You just are one or the other.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Dec 16, 2017 - 03:35pm PT
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What I especially like about Gazzaniga's ideas is that they seem consistent with how humans might have evolved from our common ancestor (with, say the African apes).
The way I see it now, all or most animals with brains (and maybe some without, based on my recent readings) have evolved a decision engine for surviving in the world. If you want to call that free will (I don't) fine, but my guess is that this decision engine is almost entirely automatic -- not requiring true "decisions". It's what we have always called in animals, "instinct".
So, the 64,000 dollar question is how is it that humans somehow rose above making instinctual decisions? Well, they didn't. Instead, they evolved a new add-on module that gave after-the-fact meaning to their instinctual decisions.
Let's look at the mammal...feline branch of the tree of life. As fascinating as it is to watch your cat creep up on a bird and imagine all of the variables that he/she must be deciding upon, I can't help but be reminded of my other cats that pretty much did the same thing, and I recognize similar behaviors in big cats that I see on nature shows. They are agents, for sure, but their behavior is instinctual. It's the same for us I think. (Why wouldn't it be?)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 16, 2017 - 03:38pm PT
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On the other hand, you were the one who originally turned me on to Gazzaniga...
to say we have any idea of what the answer is would be a mistake, or that their might even be an answer, let alone whether or not it comes from science, meditation, religion, philosophy, whatever...
so I'm happy to be persuaded by various arguments, and happy to share them here.
an interesting consequence of the hypothesis that human "mind" is physical would be that there is something distinguishable in our constitution from other, related species. A modern take on "constitution" would be our genetics, and so we find this interesting recent article:
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/358/6366/1027
Molecular and cellular reorganization of neural circuits in the human lineage
André M. M. Sousa, Ying Zhu, Mary Ann Raghanti, Robert R. Kitchen, Marco Onorati, Andrew T. N. Tebbenkamp, Bernardo Stutz, Kyle A. Meyer, Mingfeng Li, Yuka Imamura Kawasawa, Fuchen Liu, Raquel Garcia Perez, Marta Mele, Tiago Carvalho, Mario Skarica, Forrest O. Gulden, Mihovil Pletikos, Akemi Shibata, Alexa R. Stephenson, Melissa K. Edler, John J. Ely, John D. Elsworth, Tamas L. Horvath, Patrick R. Hof, Thomas M. Hyde, Joel E. Kleinman, Daniel R. Weinberger, Mark Reimers, Richard P. Lifton, Shrikant M. Mane, James P. Noonan, Matthew W. State, Ed S. Lein, James A. Knowles, Tomas Marques-Bonet, Chet C. Sherwood, Mark B. Gerstein, Nenad Sestan
Science 24 Nov 2017:
Vol. 358, Issue 6366, pp. 1027-1032
DOI: 10.1126/science.aan3456
Abstract
To better understand the molecular and cellular differences in brain organization between human and nonhuman primates, we performed transcriptome sequencing of 16 regions of adult human, chimpanzee, and macaque brains. Integration with human single-cell transcriptomic data revealed global, regional, and cell-type–specific species expression differences in genes representing distinct functional categories. We validated and further characterized the human specificity of genes enriched in distinct cell types through histological and functional analyses, including rare subpallial-derived interneurons expressing dopamine biosynthesis genes enriched in the human striatum and absent in the nonhuman African ape neocortex. Our integrated analysis of the generated data revealed diverse molecular and cellular features of the phylogenetic reorganization of the human brain across multiple levels, with relevance for brain function and disease.
Although the human brain is about three times as large as those of our closest living relatives, the nonhuman African great apes (chimpanzee, bonobo, and gorilla), increased size and neural cell counts alone fail to explain its characteristic functionalities (1–5). The brain has also undergone microstructural, connectional, and molecular changes in the human lineage (1–5), changes likely mediated by divergent spatiotemporal gene expression (6–17).
Here, we profiled the mRNA and small noncoding RNA transcriptomes of 16 adult brain regions involved in higher-order cognition and behavior of human (H) (Homo sapiens); chimpanzee (C) (Pan troglodytes), our closest extant relative; and rhesus macaque (M) (Macaca mulatta), a commonly studied nonhuman primate. We integrated these profiles with single-cell transcriptomic data from the human brain (18, 19), histological data from adult and developmental brains of these and other primates (bonobo, gorilla, orangutan, pig-tailed macaque, baboon, and capuchin), and multimodal data from human primary and induced pluripotent stem cell (iPSC)–derived neural cultures. In doing so, we have investigated the evolutionary, cellular, and developmental framework that makes the human brain unique.
...
Neuromodulatory transmitters, in particular dopamine, are involved in distinctly human aspects of cognition and behavior, such as working memory, reasoning, reflective exploratory behavior, and overall intelligence. By analyzing brain regions involved in these processes, we show that evolutionary modifications in gene expression and the distribution of neurons associated with neuromodulatory systems may underlie cognitive and behavioral differences between species. Cortical TH⁺[TH-immunopositive] interneurons are depleted in patients affected by Parkinson’s disease (39) or dementia with Lewy bodies (40), and these alterations may contribute to cognitive impairments.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Dec 16, 2017 - 03:45pm PT
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Ed said.
to say we have any idea of what the answer is would be a mistake, or that their might even be an answer, let alone whether or not it comes from science, meditation, religion, philosophy, whatever... This might be the first thing that I remember reading from Ed that I disagree with. At a minimum, we would have to agree on what an answer is.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Dec 16, 2017 - 04:09pm PT
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I think we are kind of closing in on the material aspects of this anyway, whether from the size of brains, the size of the neo cortex, measuring the numbers of neurons across species after pureeing their brains, to looking at DNA sequences and hormones. As for evolutionary history, it makes sense that the awareness activities of the decision and action oriented brain are shared with other animals, but the narrative brain is the one that gives us a sense of self and comes up with stories to justify our actions and bolster our ego.
Just as ancient meditators have said however, it is not enough to change the story. The world is filled with religious people who have a good story but are unable to live up to it, because they are sabotaged by the emotional reactions of their action brain (the old devil made me do it). If you really want to change reactions and behavior, you have to deal with the unconscious or subconscious action brain. Having the ability to reprogram it, strikes me as a peculiarly human ability, and even then fairly rare, but a human potential nevertheless.
Art and music seem to come from this action oriented brain also. Super learning has shown that one can memorize better if doing a bodily movement while memorizing. Dance and music seem universal, as well as petroglyphs and cave paintings where preserved.
I think therefore, that there are at least three major brain trends that make us uniquely human, and only one of them comes from the neocortex, although this is the one that our narrative attributes most of our genius to.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Dec 16, 2017 - 04:28pm PT
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Within this very specific, largely-bounded, geographic area, something like 97 percent of the population believes in the tenets of Islam.
And yet there is a huge variation in terms of what that means in terms of people's behavior. So much variation that I claim that the statement "believing in the tennets of Islam" is basically useless for anticipating how anyone will behave. For example, on the one hand we have Bin Laden and on the other hand:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/30/afghanistan-women-feminists-burqa
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2008/nov/09/islam-women
Does a person who "believes in the tennets of Islam" behave like Bin Laden, like Meena Kamal, or like a hypothetical easy-going truck driver in Istanbul?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 16, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
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Does a person who "believes in the tennets of Islam" behave like Bin Laden, like Meena Kamal, or like a hypothetical easy-going truck driver in Istanbul?
My guess would be:
more like the Iran ex-pats I know from the West Vancouver Aquatic Centre sauna.
Even though most of them do not believe in anything they have not met up with in person.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2017 - 05:28pm PT
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A theory on how to drive a car.
Just google the internet and wiki but never actually get in a car and drive one.
Just study everyone else's mind except their own.
That is exactly how the materialistic scientist does the mind thread also.
Rolls eyes .....
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 16, 2017 - 05:31pm PT
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Werner,
do you have a lot of neural knots, for as gauging by your chatter, you seem to be quite fixated?
You would likely come across as a happier person if you could get more dopamine -- maybe by breaking your fixations?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2017 - 06:23pm PT
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Everything you just said will not help you one bit in "What is Mind".
You need to study your own mind ........
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 16, 2017 - 06:36pm PT
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Werner,
you missed the point, this idea may help you look at your mind?
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Dec 16, 2017 - 06:40pm PT
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Even though most of them do not believe in anything they have not met up with in person.
An Islamic tenet? (yes I spelled tenet wrong ... my google chrome spell-check thingie is on the fritz)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 16, 2017 - 07:23pm PT
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We have a large population of people born in Iran now living in North and West Vancouver. The old guys I tend to meet are most often well-educated successful businessmen. Most of them avow secular views, perhaps to deflect suspicion, but it sounds sincere to me. There is no advocacy of religious belief.
They do observe customs and traditions that are unfamiliar to a guy like me raised in the US. They also surprisingly often declare dismay at the work ethic of their children, but that sounds just like many other parents to me.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2017 - 07:32pm PT
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Dingus McGee you're a mess .... study your own mind don't worry about other peoples minds as you are clueless to what is going on in them.
That is WHAT Largo has been trying point out to YOU all along ......
yanqui ..... https://www.grammarly.com/
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 17, 2017 - 03:40am PT
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Dingus McGee you're a mess .... study your own mind don't worry about other peoples minds as you are clueless to what is going on in them. --Werner
R U having fun projecting Mr. Duck? Your mind is wandering.
Wasn't it Jung that said what we despise most in others is likely our greatest weakness?
But, your brain is in default mode.
see
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-wandering-mind-is-an-un/
jgill -- see
http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Attractor_network
This link was referenced in the meditation-dopamine paper. The paper is about how some of the brains biological neural nets may be using various attractor like circuits to stay in a locus of control.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Dec 17, 2017 - 05:57am PT
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Thanks WBraun!
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 17, 2017 - 08:42am PT
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eeyonkee: 1. An event happens (loud noise)
You’ve already conflated by creating two things as “givens.” When you bracketed, you posited independent existence for both.
Dingus,
I’m not sure of your question. You start with givens that I don’t follow.
No matter what one is involved in, it is not too awfully difficult to drop interpretations that one has of it (“I’m doing X”) momentarily. What’s left appears to be textures of being—one can call them feelings. The textures seem to be infinitely variegated, in a very wide range of textures, unique and subtle. Sure, there are anger, sadness, jealousy. With more noticing, one becomes aware of a non-stop parade of unique (and increasingly subtle) textures—as if one were sitting at a RR crossing observing a 1000-car freight train. At first, each car / texture is special; later one senses simply “manifestations” (a kind of “suchness,” in buddhist terms); and next (from my experience) one becomes mesmerized and IS simply the manifestation, itself.
Jgill might say I have put myself in a trance, and perhaps that’s fair. However, in that state, Jan’s unconscious, memory muscled, action brain (as it were) appears to have taken over, and my typical “I” is no where to be found. Instead, I Am That.
Dropping interpretations exposes naked, innumerable vibrations and energy waves to surf, and the spontaneity and openness of unbounded awareness. Emptiness is an absence of substantiality—even the absence of absence. Emptiness is the essence of things. I say let one’s views be of emptiness, one’s meditations be of unbounded openness, spontaneity one’s conduct, and unity one’s experience.
Raw experience obviates / trumps theory. Nowhere have I seen this more than in making art these days. (But, hey, it’s all art, isn’t it?)
(And yes, all of this is heavy-handed interpretation.)
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 17, 2017 - 09:10am PT
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Mikel,
Dingus,
I’m not sure of your question. You start with givens that I don’t follow.
The givens do come from this link which I posted yesterday.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/scienceonreligion/2014/12/a-new-theory-for-why-buddhist-meditation-makes-us-feel-good/
The question was a form of teasing you a little about possibly getting into a stabilizing feedback loop based on some of the thoughts in the article. You may be busy already breaking up neural knots or you are already reaping the benefits of having done such.
thanks for participating, no further response necessary as I may be off the hook
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2017 - 10:46am PT
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Nobody in their right mind would chose emptiness as the bottom line. It's simply what you find, rather shockingly, a long ways down the road. I'm as guilty as the next guy wanting to take hold of the classical world I see and touch and smell and say, "See. THAT is real." And when I shattered my leg and saw bones showing nobody could tell me my body was not material and that I was only imagining it.
I suspect our world views naturally unfold from our starting point. Berkeley started with mind, and trotted out subjective idealism, or empirical idealism - "The monistic metaphysical doctrine that only minds and mental contents exist. It entails and is generally identified or associated with immaterialism, the doctrine that material things do not exist." A physicalist starts with the pebble in his hand, and goes from there.
The "middle path" inhabits, well, the middle, the wordless overlap between two seemingly divergent, seemingly opposite realms, illustrated by the mandorla (below).
The word is Pratītyasamutpāda for the middle, commonly translated as dependent origination, or dependent arising, which is a long study nutshelled by the old Heart Sutra maxim: form (material things) is emptines and emptiness is forms. Exactly.
But we humans generally cling to one or the other as fundamental, as sourcing the opposite. Or we deny the opposite as actually existing. Then we lay on the proofs.
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