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WBraun
climber
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ants have been farming for tens of millions of years, humans only the past 10,000
Humans have been here farming for millions of years.
Modern scientist are such clueless fools .....
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Why do we as human beings think so earnestly there should be meaning in the experience of being? Why are there so many verities of religious belief all seeking to reveal a higher purpose and potential even a justification for existence all through a discovery of meaning? What are the evolutionary benefits of this search? Where does this need come from? Fear alone? Don’t think so. A product of evolutionary processes? How so?
Our large brains could have something to do with our interminable search for a deeper meaning to the experience of life. The brain being the product of evolutionary processes, the brain is where such questions arise, therefore you have at least one possibility for an answer to your last question.
We can all argree there exists an innate drive in humans that seeks to provide answers as to why the universe behaves the way it appears to, in all its incredible depth. Science, philosophy, and religion are given over to this pursuit.
Evolutionarily the origins of the questioning mind seeks to uncover something valuable and useful ,hitherto unknown ,about the habits of lions for instance. By observation and reasoning answers are provided that might make it less likely human groups get out-competed or become meals themselves. For our fellow primates a much simpler course of action is in order: when non-climbing big cats come around jump into the trees. When climbing cats come around: run like hell. Terrestrial apes have to ask and answer questions about cats: where they usually are during the day,/night ,what cats rend to be the el jefe, etc..
So I hope I've established a survival purpose connected to asking fundamental questions about the world around us. Human history indicates as much and provides proof positive we are habitual " question monkeys." Questions and their answers are woven into the fabric of our minds. Their phantom limb appears to be what we think of as idle curiosity.
This is not to say that the origins of the questioning mind are fully explained by an evolutionary determinism--only that asking questions and receiving answers are at least in part a deeply ingrained habit with its origins in our unique biology.
The difficulty arises when we ask questions that do not process out as answers, such as the larger meaning and purpose of life. Many eras go by but no adequate answers are forthcoming. Answers are consequently invented , or not. Our imaginations run wild. And yet the ingrained questioning produces this itch that cannot be scratched.
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WBraun
climber
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Our large brains
Modern people's brains have devolved into small brains and are more clueless than ever .......
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Modern people's brains have devolved into small brains than ever .......
My first reaction is to scoff at this, my second reaction is to nod in agreement-- because there is more than a nickel's worth of truth there.lol.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Our large brains could have something to do with our interminable search for a deeper meaning to the experience of life. The brain being the product of evolutionary processes, the brain is where such questions arise, therefore you have at least one possibility for an answer to your last question.
Here's the problem with relegating all this to evolutionary processes: if the attribute in question is successful in facilitating survival it then also survives. If not then it either vanishes as it's host might vanish or it continues as a kind of vestige, useless to survival but not necessarily getting in the way of that survival... and what are the source of those attributes that may of may not be used in the function of survival? Where is the source of our desire for meaning? Certainly not the product of randomness and accident in a universe of strict allowance and limitations. The brain may be a product of evolutionary processes but those processes are a function of available options or possibilities within that structure of allowances and limitations and how is that so? I don't think this thing is as simple as science would like it to be.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Here's the problem with relegating all this to evolutionary processes:
Which I was careful not to do:
This is not to say that the origins of the questioning mind are fully explained by an evolutionary determinism--only that asking questions and receiving answers are at least in part a deeply ingrained habit with its origins in our unique biology.
It seems you are attempting to establish answers to your own questions based solely upon a half-baked threadbare critique of what you see as an opposing viewpoint.
Try direct answers to your own questions.
Where is the source of our desire for meaning?
Go for it.
But remember, it could be an itch you cannot scratch.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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I hate to swerve off-topic but if I don't link this I could forget.
Quite a distance upthread I related that when once initially confronted with the subject of grounding or earthing I mentioned the new agey impression it gave me-- until I investigated.
Many years later I was made aware of someone who found themselves at their home fuse box when they were overcome with a bout of strong tinnitus (ringing in the ear). This ringing came to an abrupt end when they stepped away from the fuse box and allowed bare feet to come into contact with a conductive surface.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4378297/
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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It seems you are attempting to establish answers to your own questions based solely upon a half-baked threadbare critique of what you see as an opposing viewpoint.
Interesting: I wasn't arguing with you, I was validating the idea that evolution isn't the grail some like to think. Half baked? Ha. Really? Half read is more likely.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2017 - 01:35pm PT
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The difficulty arises when we ask questions that do not process out as answers...
What criteria qualifies as something that "processes out as an answer?" Data? What happens when you drop below the level of questions and answers? What "answers" have you ever gotten marooned on a bivy ledge with no food or water - that weren't related to being? Ever notice how the important stuff is almost always related to being in some way? The whole goal of commercialism is the promise that it will increase our experience of being alive. Even the quest for knowledge for its own sake is sought by those who find it satisfying (a being state) to seek whatever truth they might find in the chaos.
There seems to be a tendency to look at life like a vast network of information that we should process the best we can, resulting in a quality life. And if we just get the facts straight, we're golden.
Hats off to anyone who had made that work in their lives.
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WBraun
climber
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evolution isn't the grail some like to think
Evolution is actually the soul transmigrating from body to body according to the consciousness and Karma it has developed.
If the gross materialist thinks of its dog at the time of death it will enter a dogs body in its next life.
The gross materialists are totally clueless to how life and evolution evolve and operate.
The gross materialist scientists are ultimately useless for the living entity because the gross materialists study only dead matter.
The living entity ultimately has no real business with material matter .....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Has purpose and meaning become a mere cluster of synonyms for the irrational, or better yet, the non-rational ?
Your words, not mine, but there's a pretty good case to be made that any search for the "purpose and meaning of life" is by definition pointless and non-rational.
I mean, exactly how is that search for the purpose and meaning of life going? Have thousands of years of the best minds in philosophy, religion and science delivered a definitive answer? No? Wikipedia has a page on it and certainly doesn't look like they have. I personally like this quote best: "There is no point in life, and that is exactly what makes it so special."
We weren't, we are, we won't be - I personally have no problem whatsoever with that being both it and enough. Hell, when the Sun expands and engulfs the Earth will my life or your's have had any more purpose or meaning than the squirrels outside my window?
Our large brains could have something to do with our interminable search for a deeper meaning to the experience of life.
What, are we back to a version of the idea that we evolved to list the nine billion names of god?
Where is the source of our desire for meaning?
Evolutionarily? Biologically? Genetically? Fear of the unknown. Meaning plays an essential role in survival and in predator / prey relationships - i.e. it means something when you see really fresh Sabretooth tracks. Extrapolate out from there and it's not hard to see why and how we became wired for pattern detection, establishing cause-and-effect relationships, and meaning. Extrapolate on an evolutionarily basis and you get philosophy, religion and science.
Ever notice how the important stuff is almost always related to being in some way?
Sure, as opposed the purpose and meaning of being. Can't remember a single time when I had to scramble hard to stay alive when simply being didn't completely preempt any thoughts of the purpose or meaning of being.
There seems to be a tendency to look at life like a vast network of information that we should process the best we can, resulting in a quality life.
Where did you get that idea - google it or something?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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What happens when you drop below the level of questions and answers?
It isn't clear here whether you are asking about people in general or trying to address us individually.
Speaking for myself, there is much of my day when there is no need for conscious thought. When my mind is quiet there comes a moment when the quality of reality shifts. What I see shifts and shimmers and takes on the aspect of a facade.
Of course, I had to rise up to the level of questions and answers to see your question and answer it.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Paul: Why do we as human beings think so earnestly there should be meaning in the experience of being?
My observations over the years of family, friends, and acquaintances is that very few ponder the question of meaning in life, much less meaning in the "experience of being" (whatever that is). Have I misled myself in this regard? Are those of you on this thread, for instance, consumed with searching for meaning in life?
JL: There seems to be a tendency to look at life like a vast network of information that we should process the best we can, resulting in a quality life
Here again I feel I have failed to comply with a common tendency. Are the rest of you busily processing this information?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I'm powering down my processor in order to finally get beneath all those garrulous questions and answers.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2017 - 04:33pm PT
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Speaking for myself, there is much of my day when there is no need for conscious thought. When my mind is quiet there comes a moment when the quality of reality shifts. What I see shifts and shimmers and takes on the aspect of a facade.
--
I'm telling you ... Or in this case, you are.
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WBraun
climber
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Speaking for myself, there is much of my day when there is no need for conscious thought.
You can't do it nor have ever done it.
If you try you will be instantly dead stone.
You obviously still are clueless to consciousness itself ......
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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My observations over the years of family, friends, and acquaintances is that very few ponder the question of meaning in life, much less meaning in the "experience of being" (whatever that is). Have I misled myself in this regard? Are those of you on this thread, for instance, consumed with searching for meaning in life?
By meaning: that we take the common occurrences in life and make something important of them by instilling them with a kind of specialness and that specialness lends them what I can only describe as meaning. We don't take Grampa's body to the dumps when he passes even if he'd wished such a thing. Instead we honor the memory of someone we loved very often through some ritual process from a church funeral to a wake or whatever. In these actions I see people searching for a kind of meaning. I don't mean you have to sit around and contemplate big questions, not that there's anything wrong with that. I think most people are consumed with bringing meaning to their lives whether by celebrating a birthday or a wedding or a holiday, we make the mundane, the common, significant and reconciling.
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WBraun
climber
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Meanings to their lives are completely different than What IS the meaning of life itself.
The gross materialists don't care for "What IS the meaning of life" itself.
They only care about the gross material world and spend all their life trying to keeping suffering at bay while it attacks them 24/7 for their whole life time .....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Well, that's how it sounded to me.
that is your experience, and your reality... go with it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Certainly not the product of randomness and accident in a universe of strict allowance and limitations.
I always like your assertions, so assured in the correctness you are that you have no problem stating them.
go with it!
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