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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2017 - 01:16pm PT
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Dingus said: I can see the without content part in you but science without content? Nonsense.
What invaluable data do you "see" in terms of "without content."
My guess is you are not getting what is being said, or don't believe it going in - that is, that there are aspects of consciousness that cannot be understood by looking at dancing neurons alone.
While you can argue that ad nauseum, perhaps first state in clear language what your experience is (and knowledge gleaned) with dealing with awareness sans content, and specifically, what you "see."
As we have seen repeatedly here, most people consider even looking directly at subjectivity is either a matter of being fused with content (especially feelings), or believing that "navel gazing" is actually a game of trying to do science (also all about content) without instruments.
Not so.
JL
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Sep 14, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
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The closest I think I've ever come to something like awareness without content is the state of being "spaced out". My dogs and cats seem to do this a lot, as well.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 14, 2017 - 04:08pm PT
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It may be possible to "glimpse" the empty stage of awareness through meditation. But I'm not recalling any recommendations of where then to go. Does one keep returning to this experience, like a religious devotee worshiping an icon?
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Sep 14, 2017 - 05:00pm PT
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I suppose my point is I'm not sure I even believe in the possibility of "consciousness" without content, anymore than I believe in the possibilty of eating without putting food in your mouth, or the sound of one hand clapping (there is no sound). In mathematics we assume an empty set, but it seems more a conceptual convenience than some inherent structural feature of the universe. For example, with the empty set we can speak about the intersection of sets as being a set, even if they have nothing in common. The empty set is not something interesting in itself, to be marveled upon. Even when it's a counterexample, it can basically be ignored. In fact, the important thing in mathematics is quite often to prove the set you have in consideration is not empty. A theory about the empty set is no theory at all. jgill, can you help me with this?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 14, 2017 - 05:02pm PT
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there are aspects of consciousness that cannot be understood by looking at dancing neurons alone.
So you say. But can you tell us which aspects?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 14, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
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The closest I think I've ever come to something like awareness without content is the state of being "spaced out". My dogs and cats seem to do this a lot, as well.
Marc Twight told us that in the high-altitude bivouacs he would put on his Walkman and zone out. Is that awareness with or without content? So many questions. The cat and dog in my house usually only ask about what's to eat. Much more important questions than, "What is "Mind?"
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Sep 14, 2017 - 07:01pm PT
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The cat and dog in my house usually only ask about what's to eat My dogs love to go out to the hills with me when I go for a hike or out to climb. This is at least as important to them as food. My cats like to be out in the yard with me when I do yardwork. I think this has something to do with what jgill called "play".
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 14, 2017 - 08:04pm PT
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A theory about the empty set is no theory at all. jgill, can you help me with this?
I agree, Tim. What JL and his disciples are doing is the equivalent of a mathematician doing nothing but pondering the empty set. If one were to focus on this little bit of nothing long enough, the mind would try to accommodate by infusing it with existential significance.
I would not be surprised, however, if Paul were to comment on the divine nature of the little bugger, beyond its simple role in starting the number system.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sep 14, 2017 - 09:30pm PT
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J Gill said"t may be possible to "glimpse" the empty stage of awareness through meditation. But I'm not recalling any recommendations of where then to go. Does one keep returning to this experience, like a religious devotee worshiping an icon?"
Be patient ; sh#t happens
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 14, 2017 - 09:54pm PT
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Admittedly I have not read every single post on this one, though I have read many.
So what I 'm wondering is, if consciousness is (or for that matter is not) any of these why is it important to write about it
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 14, 2017 - 10:03pm PT
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PSP: OK. Then the mind, always eager to satisfy, accommodates the meditator and imparts an existential character to the practice. An epiphany I'm sure, but void of substance. Just my opinion. Has no ramifications for the physical world but possibly a change of outlook or attitude in the practitioner. More closely aligned with religion than science. And that's fine.
The moon is still there, however, even when we are asleep.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 14, 2017 - 10:20pm PT
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Indeed Professor Gill, but what if nobody hears it?
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Sep 15, 2017 - 04:27am PT
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Blueberry Bloatmeal Gak Slurprise
Up Quark down quark strange quark charm
Top quark bottom quark wiggle your arm
Smear your face with toadskin spooge
Slap on some of that goats head goodje
Twiddle your fingers smack your lips
Count ten backwards take two sips
Of Blueberry Bloatmeal Gak Slurprise
Then gulp it down and cross your eyes
Presto change-o you'll get sick
Or lose two inches off your bick
Now try it with your favorite brew
Either way it'll make you spew
Order it now or make it yourself
Just take your courage off the shelf
It'll rattle your brains and shake the earth
And slow your world into reverse
You'll curse the stars it'll be your lot
To blow voluminous gobs of snot
'Till your brains slide thickly out your nose
To lie in sweet but brief repose
When effusive nausea sets your jaw
And your hand curls into a permanent claw
For a quarter sterling or fifty quid
You'll feel short changed or wish you did
Up Quark down quark strange quark charm
Top quark bottom quark wiggle your arm
With Blueberry Bloatmeal Gak Slurprise
Sweet merciful death you'll beg no lies
-bushman
09/15/2017
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Sep 15, 2017 - 05:24am PT
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Largo,
My guess is you are not getting what is being said, or don't believe it going in - that is, that there are aspects of consciousness that cannot be understood by looking at dancing neurons alone
1. Yes, there is a possibility I may not be getting what is being said.
2. There is a possibility you are making assumptions about what is going in [on?] or making incomplete to wrong interpretations of what is going on.
3. I have never contented that consciousness is simply dancing neurons alone but that it is produced by specific electrical signals going through a very specific platform where molecules are getting altered in that process.
4. Further to the point of looking at dancing neurons alone I repeat see the July SciAm article. Researchers are making surrogate eyes to watch a specific neuron. In this research they design a specific molecule to watch for a specific signal. The watch the sensor molecule with a nano microscope which they designed.
While you can argue that ad nauseum, perhaps first state in clear language what your experience is (and knowledge gleaned) with dealing with awareness sans content, and specifically, what you "see."
T Metzinger[ a long time meditator] podcast at duration 1 hr gets to his take on meditation and awareness. At time 1:02 he contends you reach final depth which is a state of "controlling the focus of attention between mental action and letting it go. You are mind wandering."
My take from experiences while meditating would be that you are not controlling the focus of attention but following it. I [Damasio hints] also contend that awareness is a signal[feeling] and it arises when the subconscious brain sends tiny thoughts to the self module [an idea of both Metzinger and Damasio] when such signals are not urgent for action.
We simply watch what the subconscious brain wants us to feel and maybe act upon. I get the idea that the self is not in much control of the whole process. We say, "I am thirsty and will get a drink." This consciousness of thirst arises from the homeostasis part of the brain and the body needs the action of getting more water. The brain had a form of awareness and we modify it to think we have thirst. Some call this modified signal awareness, others just get a drink -- ok, Largo's eyes gleam and he says but we [self consciousness] are aware.
Another report of the nature of awareness from Metzinger while meditating and studies that he mentions as having been done is a what he calls Gap Awareness [1:17]. There is a short duration between "mind wanderings" in which you have no perception [feelings of awareness?]. He relates this gap to the persistence of awareness[studies support gaps ]. Awareness is not a continuous feeling but it is perceived by some as continuously happening while in reality it is process of continually refreshing the feelings of awareness to the self module.
The relation I see with Metzinger and Damasio is they are on the same tractk but Metzinger is coming from the mind end of consciousness [with & without meditation] and Damasio is coming from the brain end of figuring out what is consciousness. Metzinger, "It is the flow of information"...
Not so.
Type A Materialism?
What is "Not so"? Could you tells us about how "Not so" is the case?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Sep 15, 2017 - 07:40am PT
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MH2: Yes. This happens to a lot of old people.
Ha-ha-ha-ha. Good one! Cheers, buddy.
Dingus: Enough! Good Day MikeL.
Are you HFCS? Relax. I have no purpose here. (And, psssttt, I’m not really talking about real chickens or real eggs.)
Nah, Damasio doesn’t attempt to say what feelings are. And that’s ok, for all of us are saying things that we don’t really know. It’s part of the fun of speculation. But to have the fun, IMO, one can’t take anything too seriously or concretely. Look at children on a playground “playing.” They make up their own rules, the have do-overs, and they are generally kind and open to one another’s use of the word “and.” Behaviorally, children seem so wise (but without reflection). Here we are, all grown up (as MH2 pointed out humorously above), and we’ve turned serious and highly committed to our beliefs.
jgill: Does one keep returning to this experience [of awareness without content], like a religious devotee worshiping an icon?
Well, I’ve seen this happen almost often. It’s called bliss. I once told a senior monk that I was feeling a little guilty enjoying long bouts of meditation (I am an ex-catholic), and he said to me that many people would not continue to pursue meditation or contemplation without it. However, John, this is another little roadblock put up by the little self / ego as a rear-guard action to its dissembling. Why did you climb? Surely it provided pain and suffering sometimes, so why did you continue? At some point or in some way, it was enjoyable, and there doesn’t seem to be much more that needs to be said about it. On my side, contentless awareness is nothing. Everything just happens on its own. I see myself making decisions, going through motions, experiencing pain and pleasure; but most often there is a sense of curiosity and playfulness that goes on, and THAT is what I am most aware of. As sycorax says, it’s a “he-haw episode.”
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 15, 2017 - 08:30am PT
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Researchers are making surrogate eyes to watch a specific neuron.
In this research, they design a specific molecule to watch for a specific signal.
Classic reductionism.
It's the same as a silly child cutting the finger off his mother to study his mother.
The part parcel is never the whole.
The modern gross materialists always fail the WHOLE because they only ever see the part parcel.
Plus they never do the experiment on their own themselves either.
Their failed motto is "There's no need" and "No one knows"
They should say "We don't know" and search for the ONE that knows.
Instead ...... they say there is NO NEED (since NO ONE KNOWS) as we scientists and our science is supreme (playing god by the tricks of their own minds).
Closed minded deluded arrogant fools ......
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2017 - 08:33am PT
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My take from experiences while meditating would be that you are not controlling the focus of attention but following it.
Nope. Try again. No time to explain now but later.
In my view you have half of the equation sorted, but not the awareness part. Still conflating with content (including feelings).
Briefly, you said: 3. I have never contented that consciousness is simply dancing neurons alone but that it is produced by specific electrical signals going through a very specific platform where molecules are getting altered in that process.
But you still have an external object/force, ie, molecules, however altered. Do yo see the challenge here?
What you are really rooting for here is emersion by way of systems theory, whereby awareness is a "sub set." Challenge is that emersion is not an explanation.
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