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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Ed: subjectivity is a social construction, which makes it objective...
How do you see that? How do you measure and hence define your consciousness—even vaguely? What are the variables and the relationships? What is the “thing” that consciousness appears to be? What IS mind?
I can understand all day long how we’ve defined every thing we appear to be aware of by the very grace of science—electrons, trees, brains, chairs, Ph.D.s, but where have we defined mind . . . either academically or in the second thread of the “What is ‘Mind?’ here on ST? Where is that thing (any thing for that matter) that we can say what it is finally, accurately, and completely? What’s at-issue is not how we’ve defined every thing but rather that we appear to be aware.
There appears to be only subjectivity, and this very statement is heavy-handed. One can’t say, but awareness / consciousness is experienced and known. (And even this statement is heavy-handed.)
. . . there is no hard boundary between the two, and certainly there is nothing that could even vaguely approach being a criteria for judging whether or not a scientific theory of mind, consciousness and all that, is possible.
Ed, if there is no criteria (even vaguely), then what sense does it make to make ANY distinction whatsoever? If all that you think you know comes through your consciousness, then what boundary could you possibly have to note (or make)? Any boundary must be constructed, not found.
The question is not a question of science but of epistemology. Epistemology = ontology.
Healyje: What would that be?
What do you see that it is? Squiggles? An image of yourself in your mind? The result of an emotive expression? (What’s your point?)
It’s been said many times that what’s really happening in any conversation or expression is not at all what it appears to be. Just indescribable energy flows. You see a person you have some sense of knowing in the hallway and you say, “Hi, how’s it going?” What’s really going on? (See: Irving Goffman’s work.)
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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All of Mike L long -winded posts come from one source/place...his brain.
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WBraun
climber
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Yes, the heart is the seat of the soul, the living entities self itself, (Mike L), and not the brain.
The brain can only process Mike L's consciousness to the external material world and thus the source of his posts do NOT come from his brain .....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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(What’s your point?)
You said "be well". Assuming my being anything at all is subjective, what would "being well" mean to another person? 'Well' in that context would have to be some objective shared [social] state or context for us to have a common understanding such that there would be any point in saying it at all.
I guess it comes down to to the fact that while 'being' might be subjective, pretty much everything we are subjectively experiencing we only recognize and understand through a shared objective context that we learn from birth. Without it you likely wouldn't be able to quite put a paw on whatever it is you were experiencing.
In other words, you might experience seeing 650 nm light - but without an objective social context (contract?) would you have even the slightest clue you were seeing what we call 'red'? I think it gets to Ed's point about the lines being pretty blurred and that the duality isn't necessarily as important to the argument as it's sometime made out to be.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dignus...I just said he was long-winded. :-) Might be great/nice and so on.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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It's not only on ST people are marginalizating reality and promoting emptiness in these postmodern times:
The triumph of emptiness. Grandiosity and marginalization of reality in corporate life.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Some perspective on subjectivity, objectivity, and socialization:
From my Dad's baby book:
"On first seeing snow:"
"Oh, it is raining milk."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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How do you see that? How do you measure and hence define your consciousness—even vaguely? What are the variables and the relationships? What is the “thing” that consciousness appears to be? What IS mind?
you tend to run off on the assumption that I'm ready to reduce things to valance electrons and leave it at that... way too narrow...
however, everything we know about the mind we have learned about from someone or some set of situations that are interpreted for us, including what we recognize as "subjective."
We all agree we have, what is defined as, a "subjective" part of our existence. Isn't that a bit strange, especially when those putatively "subjective" things turn out to be pretty common experiences?
We all agree that our history of experiences are "unique," except that we find that many of those histories are not so different than other people. If we go to the same school we all share a set of experiences, not so unique. If we all go to the same zen dojo we will all share similar experiences.
Even Wayno, who is self taught, shares experiences which are often stated as "subjective."
With all this agreement regarding "subjective," it would seem that we are talking about something that is not truly "subjective."
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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. . . however, everything we know about the mind we have learned about from someone or some set of situations that are interpreted for us, including what we recognize as "subjective."
Would you say this is true of the Zen experience of emptiness?
(not having had this experience I know not that of which I speak)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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healyje: Without it [a shared objective context?] you likely wouldn't be able to quite put a paw on whatever it is you were experiencing.
:-)
I gotta tell ya, I’m not sure what I’m experiencing daily. (I’m not even sure of the “I” part.) I find I’m just putting one foot in front of the other. I honestly have no idea where I’m going.
To your comment, in the last analysis, “well-being” is something that you have in your mind.
With respect to Werner’s comment, what seems to be the soul is an urge, and I can’t say where that comes from or even what it is. I think I have volition at times, but if I look closely, that volition seems to pop into existence on its own. I have a thought, but I can’t say where it comes from or where it goes afterwards.
I’m not trying to be clever or enigmatic here. I’m saying that something else seems to be in the driver’s seat of living. It’s as though I’m in a car on a roller coaster, or in one of the dodge-em cars where the wheel actually does nothing. At most I’m just observing myself be what I can’t help but be.
It’s not like I haven’t tried to be different. I’ve struggled and tried to direct or control my life, but I see that’s all pretty much a grand illusion.
Right now I’m sitting outside in the dark and humidity after hours of painting the trim on my house, and at the sentence’s end (above), I reached over for the bottle of scotch and poured a couple more fingers. Why? As I looked into it, the event in time and space sort of just happened on its own. I can make up stories about it, but the truth that I find is . . . !? As Wayno said up-thread, am I insane? Who’s in charge or control here? (More than any other narrative, the Bhagavad Gita seems most descriptive.)
Gosh, I wish Sartre and Camus were here sitting next to me right now. What a great conversation we could have about all of this.
(i love you too, DMT, for many reasons.)
Ed: Isn't that a bit strange, especially when those putatively "subjective" things turn out to be pretty common experiences?
Yes. It IS strange.
Note: “strangeness” does not show up in any of the Sage booklets on research methodology, Ed. But, it’s something that IS very interesting,
BTW, I don’t mean to “run-off on assumptions.” I'll try asking you more about them before I employ them.
And, hey, Bob, you can ask my wife . . . I am not a nice guy. But she loves me anyway—thank God.
(Note that most academics here tend to be a bit long-winded. I’ll try to be more succinct for you.)
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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what seems to be the soul is an urge
A novel observation. Is the soul then a product of the brain?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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...painting the trim on my house...
I've always considered this a sure sign that at some point in my now foggy and distant past I made bad life choices - ditto for plumbing and insulating.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I’ve struggled and tried to direct or control my life, but I see that’s all pretty much a grand illusion.
Don't sell yourself too short, buddy. At least you are at a comfortable enough place to have the time and education and exposure to myriad experiences that you could post it all at leisure on something such as this forum. Maybe not how you planned but you can see where intelligent effort has potential for meaningful exploration and relative joy.
I reached over for the bottle of scotch and poured a couple more fingers.
I'll grab one of these cheap beers and join you.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Objectivity must happen between every sending unit and receiving unit if they are to communicate. That is they both must know what a given signal is to mean. Knowing and recognizing signal type is in the category of objectivity not subjectivity.
Subjectivity would seem to be happening when many sending units [in this case within the brain] are sending slightly to grossly different signals to some unit of resolution.
Mike L I do not bite on every line Largo trumps up and respond in the same kind of nonsense as he spews so some things may appear to go over my head. It does seem my responses do go around some heads.
Consciousness/brain life is the signals from the sending units to the receiving units with their local forms of signal interpretation. The signals are more energy like and send/receive units are made of matter. Hense a particular form of matter and energy make for consciousness/brain life.
The existence of this brain life/activity may seem different than all of matter and energy. But brain life arises with some configurations of matter and energy. There is no other material than matter and energy to construct such a system [the brain] from as we yet know.
Awareness is just a feeling.
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WBraun
climber
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Hense a particular form of matter and energy make for consciousness/brain life.
Consciousness is not ever matter, nor has it ever been matter.
Consciousness interacts with the material energy but is always superior to matter ......
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I’m just observing myself be what I can’t help but be.
Alongside Camus and Sartre, add Jeanne Moreau (or Moraux).
died 31 July 2017 at 89
edit: The interview was recorded in 1984.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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The "water" in the river you step into is never the same as the "water" in the river you step out of. But it's useful to know the name of the river if you want to find your way to the river using a map or want to distinguish it from other rivers when you talk about the river to people who know the name of the river.
MikeL: Are you just playing around or is your mind really the mess you present or represent? First you declare doubt about everything and then you end the story telling us that you're not a nice guy (of this you're sure) and that your wife loves you non the less (of this you're sure).
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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sycorax
You now have a chance to take responsibility for not making a distinction between Jeanne, MH2, Marlow and DMT.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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I don't know about that, Marlow . . . your French gal would not fit
It's that darn critical thinking thing again. Bummer, sycorax.
;>(
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