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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Toulose-Lautrec was one painter who hardly ever ventured outside, electing to spend his almost exclusively night time existence indoors in bars, theaters,and brothels
My kinda guy. I could hardly wait for retirement and escaping all those 8:00AM classes. Night owl now, going on 80.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Ward: Suffering nearly always tells me that something is wrong in the person's environment -- the choices that individuals makes being paramount, whether artists or car mechanics.
You are obviously not a buddhist, Ward. They have different explanations for why suffering seems to show up.
After my little sitting this morning, I wondered whether we should lobby the grand overseer of this site to change the title of this thread to be more in keeping with the posts, to: “What’s on Your Mind?” People could talk about mind, or any of the other things that we end up talking about. It's all mind, anyway.
(Well, it’s just a thought . . . one of those things that appear to show up in mind.)
;->
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Largo already changed the OP... so why not change the title too...
I am contemplating asking the admins to take down my posts to this thread as they were addressing ideas that do not seem relevant to the now revised OP.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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To the change of the OP:
— To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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This is a rambling thread on a Wild West forum for aging climbers, so why worry about it? I encourage Ed to not delete his posts as I go back occasionally and reread and enjoy them. As a layman I've learned a bit of physics from a master. The debates (and arguments) that arise are generally intelligent and non-rancorous and offer POVs I enjoy contemplating.
May the Empty Awareness be with you all . . .
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Largo on 22 September 2016:
Objectless meditation is the go-to way to isolate consciousness as a subject of inquiry.
Largo in the new Author’s Original Post (but still dated 28 August 2011):
What is mind, that is, mind itself, as it presents itself as a first person, conscious phenomenon, NOT the material footprint believed to be associated to mind.
And so we come to resemble that which we oppose:
Scientism ~ the belief that the methods of measuring, or the categories and things described through measuring, form the only real and legitimate elements in any philosophical or other inquiry, and that science alone describes the world as it is in itself, independent of perspective, with a concomitant elimination of the psychological dimensions of experience.
Largo now implies that objectless meditation is the only real and legitimate path of inquiry into consciousness, with a concomitant elimination of scientific dimensions.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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JL's riding his horse east, toward the sunset, hoping for enlightenment.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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JL's riding his horse east, toward the sunset, hoping for enlightenment.
Of course the enlightened realization is that the sun neither rises nor sets but shines eternally
(in relation to humanity) and it's humanity's myopic perspective that sees it otherwise.
Also: the suffering artist of a neurotic nature, alone and anticipating the tastes of the future and necessarily dying in order to be realized for the genius he/she is, is a purely romantic concoction promoted by middle and high school teachers to the detriment of the publics's understanding of what art is and how it functions.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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You guys sure pick on Largo.
Paul:
You see “Eye of the Sixties,” “The Art of Rivalry,” or “Invisible Guests?”
Is “to create” not generally a sure path “off the reservation?” Are shamans or prophets or spiritual masters—and those who express those folks’ seeing—not quite in what folks consider normal reality? Are rock-climbing soloists just a little crazy / foolish / greatly imprudent? Do not societies get to relegate these individuals socially, morally, and even legally? If if they are not justified to do so, don’t they anyway?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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I don’t talk about meditation much. Liberated folks that I am associated with don’t seem to do it much, and at times they actually say it doesn’t take anyone anywhere.
I’ve been sitting now daily for probably 35 years, and I no longer meditate. I just sit. For me, there is a terrific feeling that arises as I sit in a full-lotus position for about 30-40 minutes. A three-point sitting stance is rock solid. It feels like my body has been set into concrete 5 feet into the ground. In that position, there is nothing that I focus on. I just sit and observe what state my so-called mind seems to be in. Everything comes and goes, from no where, to no where. It’s like siting at a RR crossing: thoughts, feelings, and images come and go, none of them important or special. After a while things just get quiet. Although there might appear to be commotion, nothing is really moving.
There is great power in being quiet and still. It can make one feel like a capacitor. You just sit and absorb energy.
Ibn Arabi, a spaniard and an arabic scholar and mystic (1165-1240), relates a story about King Solomon inviting the queen to enter a palace paved with crystal. She mistakes the floor for water and picks up her robe to avoid it getting wet. Solomon then points out that every object perceived at every instant is a new creation. An apparent continuity only consists from the manifestation of likes and resemblances. The resemblances produce feelings of constancy and continuity that trick awareness into a state of sleep.
Objects are always new creations because there is something working on them, making them more than just unchanging material statements.
Being quiet and still provides the opportunity to become reflective and observant of such apparent changes. It enables one to see the glitch of thinking that we have thoughts, that we are in control of what we think is our lives. In Chinese one does not say that he or she thinks a thought. Chinese grammar posits that “a thought thinks me.”
If one sits quietly and still, one can see that thoughts enter consciousness and only seem to move a person when he or she identifies with the thought as his or her thought. Without that, they are nothing: they are just noise.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Better Than Feelings
He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His name’s sake.
Psalm 23:3b
Recommended Reading
Psalm 19:7-11
Aleister Crowley was an early-twentieth-century British artist, novelist, and occultist. He founded a religion he called Thelema and saw himself as a prophet who would guide humanity into an age of self-realization. The Beatles were fans—Crowley was one of those appearing on the cover of the famous “Sgt. Pepper’s” album cover. Supposedly, the guiding rule of his religion was, “’Do what thou wilt’ shall be the whole of the Law.” Many people trace one of the guiding maxims of the 1960s—“If it feels good, do it”—back to Crowley.
“The Sixties” took that principle to heart and many today still do. How often do we hear people explain a decision by saying, “It just felt right”? But is “feeling good” enough of a guiding principle for life? Think about your own feelings: Today you feel good and tomorrow you don’t. The decision you make today, you wouldn’t make tomorrow. We need something more permanent, consistent, and dependable as a guiding principle for life. The psalmist trusted in God’s guidance (Psalm 23:3b) and in God’s Word (Psalm 19:7-11).
Don’t get caught up in the religion of “anything goes.” Establish your life on the guiding principles of God and His Word.
Men give advice; God gives guidance.
Leonard Ravenhill
http://www.davidjeremiah.org/
Isaiah 26:3
You keep him in perfect peace
whose mind is stayed on you,
because he trusts in you.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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You guys sure pick on Largo
I met the young Johns years ago when they came out to Colorado and I can assure you Largo is as tough as he is smart and probably enjoys the barbs, giving as well as taking.
If one sits quietly and still, one can see that thoughts enter consciousness and only seem to move a person when he or she identifies with the thought as his or her thought. Without that, they are nothing: they are just noise
Good point, MikeL. I do this also each day, but I can't hold the lotus position due to old injuries. So it's a chair I use. That was a good post.
As I've said before, my only concern with meditation is with claims that what is perceived in a meditative state is an explanation of quantum mechanics.
Aleister Crowley's Bouldering Guide
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Beelzebub from an infinite composition of complex functions. Completely unexpected.
Which raises the question: Is mathematics demonic at heart?
And since math is a product of human intellectualism, are humans demonic at heart?
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WBraun
climber
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And since math is a product of human intellectualism
No, it is not.
It exists eternally.
It was there before the entire cosmic material manifestation and will remain after the dissolution of the material manifestation also.
Since modern science is just based on mental speculation the actual origins remain unknown to them,
Since modern people all graduate from the Universities of Mental Speculation saturated in gross materialism .....
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Well, yes, that's another POV.
;>\
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.
You guys sure make me laugh sometimes. As you seem to say, John, there is a great deal of warmth in this room.
. . . and yeah, quite an image there.
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