What is "Mind?"

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MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 7, 2015 - 05:22pm PT
Don't do it to me, MH2. Being nice to me is not helping.

I am trying badly to get pissed off and mad.



Look on the works of Mark Twain and despair.

http://people.virginia.edu/%7Esfr/enam482e/totheperson.html
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 7, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
Let's see. I was going to do something...




























Oh, yes.


PSP also PP: Also one of the great things about meditation you can do when you get old and it is completely accessible and it is free



jgill: How does it work for Alzheimer's afflicted?






jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 7, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
The above "assumption" is based on the quoted claim of those who believe in brain copying . . . (JL)

It seems to me you are implying this is the consensus of the scientific community. I'm sure there are "those" who so believe, but I'll bet there are others who don't.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Oct 7, 2015 - 09:21pm PT
What you seem to be presenting are your intuitions.

Oh and like you're not?

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2015 - 09:40pm PT
John, I think that most every angle of science has people who believe and those who do not - and they are all scientists. Look at QM and the Copenhagan Interpretation. Ed will tell you flat out that the eminent scientists espousing that view are fumbling the data.

Mind uploading (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading); is a pretty well established angle ..."based on this mechanistic view of the mind. Eminent computer scientists and neuroscientists have predicted that specially programmed computers will be capable of thought and even attain consciousness, including Koch and Tononi,Douglas Hofstadter, Jeff Hawkins, Marvin Minsky, Randal A. Koene,and Rodolfo Llinas.

Such a machine intelligence capability might provide a computational substrate necessary for uploading.

However, even though uploading is dependent upon such a general capability, it is conceptually distinct from general forms of AI in that it results from dynamic reanimation of information derived from a specific human mind so that the mind retains a sense of historical identity (other forms are possible but would compromise or eliminate the life-extension feature generally associated with uploading). The transferred and reanimated information would become a form of artificial intelligence, sometimes called an infomorph or "no÷morph."

Many theorists have presented models of the brain and have established a range of estimates of the amount of computing power needed for partial and complete simulations. Using these models, some have estimated that uploading may become possible within decades if trends such as Moore's Law continue.

---


In other words, if you have a problem with these ideas - and I believe they are all based on misinformation of mind derived entirely from studying objective functioning - it has nothing to do with the information I am presenting, and will continue to present. The exercise is to look at the general assumptions of these scientists and see where they lead. If you doubt that what they are saying is valid, you might find what I am investigating of some interest. As mentioned, I'm pretty certain that they've no idea about anything but computational processes.

JL
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 8, 2015 - 07:07am PT
In other words, if you have a problem with these ideas


Which ideas? That a semblance of human thought might be copied to a non-biological medium? How about books, paintings, and music?




it has nothing to do with the information I am presenting, and will continue to present.


Obviously. You present no information, only an opinion.
WBraun

climber
Oct 8, 2015 - 07:56am PT
neuroscientists have predicted that specially programmed computers will be capable of thought and even attain consciousness

To what is their credit with such mental speculations.

It's already been done since day one, "the living entity in the material bodies."

Because the living entity is part parcel of God they have the all the qualities of God himself but not the quantity.

They can create and destroy along with everything in between those two with limitations which always lead to defects.

Thus they try to independently enjoy.

And thus continuously make nothing but blunders.

Just like the fools wanted to fly and thus created a crude mechanical flying machine.

They had to imitate the bird for example.

The bird was already there and could fly more efficient then any flying machine they built.

The fools want to fly then change your consciousness and you'll be reborn into an appropriate bird body in your next life.

Stupid gross materialists always think they will solve problems by creating a machine which will compound even more problems.

Then their stupid logic immediately thinks, ... well we shouldn't anything then.

Their logic and intelligence is driven by their limited duality of their tiny mind only.

With no control over their dual limitations of the material infected minds their logic shown in this thread.

Largo's presentation is only to point how to transcend the limitations of the bondage of material mind and energies.

Thus his information is not generally understood by those who bound heavily in material consciousness.

Thus you get such nonsense as "You present no information" by the materially infected mind .......
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 8, 2015 - 07:56am PT
Great video MH2
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Oct 8, 2015 - 08:00am PT
Obviously. You present no information, only an opinion.

Same as the rest of us, here on the frontiers of ignorance and knowledge.

DMT
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Oct 8, 2015 - 09:08am PT
DMT: Oh and like you're not?

https://www.braindecoder.com/bold-assumptions-why-brain-scans-are-not-always-what-they-seem-1069949099.html


Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 8, 2015 - 09:53am PT
Largo's "brain copying" provides a compelling argument supporting his contentions of irreducibility (who'd have thought that!)

but of course the entire concept is flawed since we don't yet have a detailed physical theory that would allow us to describe what "brain copying" would entail....

...However, Feyerabend's article Materialism and the mind-body problem and in other writings, he reminds us what the utility of a "theory" is... in particular, to allow us to use the "theory" to create the thing we theorize about...

So assuming we have a complete physical theory of the mind, we could indeed build a simulation of the mind that would completely mimic the mind that arises from our biological presence. That simulation would easily achieve the "Turing test" criteria of being "human."

One could then generalize regarding the underlying mechanism that achieves this, some would call it an "illusion" but that would be difficult given the "mystery of the mind." The reason that we'd generalize the mechanism would be to understand the many ways one could realize this "mind."

One might speculate as to whether or not an existing "mind" could be copied... we have excellent simulations of billions of atoms to study materials but we do not attempt to setup the initial conditions of a similar physical ensemble of atoms in exactly the same way to compare, time step by time step, the "actual article" to the simulation. We are content to demonstrate that the "emergent properties" of the physical material are the same as our simulation output.

Given the simulation, we can learn how the material achieves these properties on the microscopic level... such simulations give us insight in our "reductive" program of understanding.



I don't know if we can achieve such a theory, but if we were to, then this would indeed separate "mind" from "body."

But Largo's "brain copying" is probably absurd at this time...
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Oct 8, 2015 - 10:15am PT
I read too, MikeL. Enjoy.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-we-read-we-recognize-words-as-pictures-and-hear-them-spoken-aloud/

From Wiki:

Identifying thoughts[edit]
When humans think of an object, such as a screwdriver, many different areas of the brain activate. Marcel Just and his colleague, Tom Mitchell, have used fMRI brain scans to teach a computer to identify the various parts of the brain associated with specific thoughts.[5]

This technology also yielded a discovery: similar thoughts in different human brains are surprisingly similar neurologically. To illustrate this, Just and Mitchell used their computer to predict, based on nothing but fMRI data, which of several images a volunteer was thinking about. The computer was 100% accurate, but so far the machine is only distinguishing between 10 images .[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_identification

Cheers
DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2015 - 11:37am PT
But Largo's "brain copying" is probably absurd at this time...
---


Ed, where did you ever get the idea that "brain copying" was my idea? that idea came right out of neurosciece, so if you want to call those guys absurd, have at it.

My angle was to just go with the assumptions that they would get a physical theory on mind and then go to trying to actualize same - and to show how you would dead end owing to many reasons.

For example, Ed says: So assuming we have a complete physical theory of the mind, we could indeed build a simulation of the mind that would completely mimic the mind that arises from our biological presence.

This is a statement that is worth looking at. And the way I have chosen to look at it is: If you were to actually look at trying to do this, in the real world, what would come up?

Problems of execution...

JL
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 8, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
Same as the rest of us, here on the frontiers of ignorance and knowledge.


True.

Largo's statements are more smoke than opinion.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Oct 8, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
that idea came right out of neurosciece, so if you want to call those guys absurd, have at it.

Just like the caltech carpool. You speak for them, until challenged. Then its all 'take it up with them.'

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Oct 8, 2015 - 12:29pm PT
LOL Werner!

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2015 - 12:37pm PT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading

Read up, Dingus. And if you have issues with what is being said, I'd love to hear them.

What I am doing is looking at a theory that is being put forth by respected scientists including the opinions of our own Dr. Ed. And when looking at what is involved in making those idea real, what issues come up per execution. It is an interesting idea that bears fruit you never would have imagined till trying to do so. As MH2 said, a lot of what is being fobbed off as science is in fact "smoke."

You can challenge me on any aspect of anything I have ever said or will say. By and large you and others never get specific per details. I have opinions about Ed's mechanical/pure physical model of mind, and I'll show you what those are.

JL
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 8, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
I have opinions about Ed's mechanical/pure physical model of mind, and I'll show you what those are.


Mother Hubbard's dog gave up hope on that bone long ago.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Oct 8, 2015 - 05:19pm PT
Read up, Dingus.

That's just it. I read a lot. I read your citation. The words there never line up with your interpretation of them; ever.

Like your whole no physical extent gambit. You keep writing as if your opinion of physics is a settled matter. Matter, hehe. Anyway, carry on, you are certainly an interesting person with interesting ideas.

Cheers
DMT
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 9, 2015 - 10:02am PT
In the news:

http://www.nature.com/news/fragment-of-rat-brain-simulated-in-supercomputer-1.18536

http://www.nature.com/news/computer-modelling-brain-in-a-box-1.10066



http://bbpnmc.epfl.ch/nmc-portal/web/guest/welcome

On another research front:

http://www.nature.com/news/simulated-brain-scores-top-test-marks-1.11914



http://nengo.ca/build-a-brain/spaunvideos/
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