Video of Missile Hitting the Pentagon?

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WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 26, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
A newly released video supposedly containing footage from 9/11 shows a cruise missile, painted to look like a small American Airlines plane, and other footage of a missile hitting the Pentagon. The footage of the missile striking the building also apparently shows an illuminated laser spot on the wall of the Pentagon into which the missile strikes, exactly like we see in the World Trade Center videos. Although the video may very well be fake, partly or completely, if it is genuine it would only further disprove the government version of what happened at the Pentagon.


Where's Klimmer and Rocky?

REAL OR DISINFO?

http://www.bollyn.com/video-of-missile-hitting-the-pentagon
Gene

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
If it were a cruise missle, where's AA Flight 77?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
hahahahah, cruise missiles don't use laser illumination to hit the target. They use GPS and their own internal guidance systems.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
If it were a cruise missile, where's AA Flight 77?

That's one question the "missile hit the pentagon" crowd always avoid.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
That's not the Pentagon.


That's Stonehenge.


As Werner might say, fukking wankers.
Watusi

Social climber
Newport, OR
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
Yeah and there was no wreckage to be found of an immense airliner...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
I heard that it was a drug-laden Lockheed Lodestar that was radio controlled by rogue elements of YOSAR. The purpose was to divert attention away from the Wings of Steel controversy. Werner, can you confirm or deny that there was a secret meeting in one of the YOSAR tent cabins at Camp 4 on the evening on September 10, 2001 where the attack was planned?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
One thing is for sure, no 757 hit the Pentagon on 9-11-2001.

Even the official video that they did release shows something else hit the Pentagon and not UA flight 77.


Is this video real? I have no idea. Funny this comes out just before the 10 year anniversary of the biggest false-flag operation in all history.


Release all of the video that was confiscated by the FBI and we can see for ourselves what really happened. But as it stands now the OCT has been invalidated time and time again. We know it didn't go down as they say it did.

Investigate 9-11 completely.


Edit:

By the way, we don't have to prove what happened to flight 77, only that it didn't hit the Pentagon. That has been done many times. The OCT is 100% USDA Bovine Dung. It has been invalidated time and time again. That is how science works. That is how forensic science works. We can invalidate the OCT and we have.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
Roxjox, that's a lie. You know that Lockheed Lodestars do not have jet turbine engines.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
the 10 year anniversary of the biggest false-flag operation in all history.

Only YOSAR would have the technical expertise to pull off an operation that big and get away with it.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
werner,

that video clearly shows Elvis riding the missile into the Pentagon...but his body was never found.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
Sheep wankers and graniteclimber leg humper

Just the fact that they showed some hundreds of videos on the web of planes or whatever hitting the trade center and NEVER releasing the videos from the cameras at and around the pentagon except some frames with missing frames from one camera shows deception.

If you and they are so sure it was an airliner hitting the pentagon then those videos would have been available for years to collaborate what the govt. claimed.

But of course .... modern science does not seek the truth.

Just theorizes endlessly like internet wankers.

This is why all you sheep have been owned.

Watch em get mad now Heh heh
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
Props to Werner for stating his proposition as a question. At least he has an open mind.

One thing is for sure, no 757 hit the Pentagon on 9-11-2001.

More drivel from the clueless. Remember, its the same guy who believes in Aliens and a Space Ship on the Moon.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:26pm PT

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
I don't know what it is, but I have a hard time when morons, who think they have all the answers, spew their B.S. It gets me riled up.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
Always a classic to watch . . .

You know it really is very simple. It did not happen as they said it did.

The OCT is laughable bunk.

Pentagonstrike:
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
Freudian slip TRUTH oooooppppsssiiiieeeesss:


http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=10875

Former 9/11 Commissioner admits missile hit the Pentagon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUmr9dFbf2c&feature=player_embedded

Rumsfeld admits missile in pentagon !!
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=141472

WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
Modern science --- hypothesis, theory and experiment.

Sheep -- hypothesis, theory and no experiment.

Fly the fuking airliner into a replica of the pentagon wall in the exact same speed and pattern you say it's possible or else STFU.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
By your definition, Werner, Klimmer is a sheep. He's done no experimentation.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
What we were shown officially:



Where's the 757? Where is UA flight 77?




What we should have seen, but didn't because it didn't happen. (Not this is CGI, not real, of what we should have seen if it went down like they said it did.)


Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
what we should have seen, but didn't because it didn't happen. (Not this is CGI, not real, of what we should have seen if it went down like they said it did.)re

How do you know what we should have seen? YOU'RE NOT AN EXPERT no matter how much you pretend to be.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
The laughter, but how DO you account for a 16 foot hole and a 160 foot aitliner with two massive solid turbine engine outriggers on the strongest member of the airliner?


Uh?

A 757 has a cabin width of 11'6"

Both engines were found. There's a photo of a Rolls Royce compressor hub laying on the ground in the link.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:05pm PT











Gee, where'd the massive jet go?

How did it get through that small hole?

Wow, solid really does go through solid. Just look at those intact windows where the massive towering tail stabalizer would have gone through. Miracles do happpen!!!!!


Anyone for a round of Golf on The Pentalawn?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
What more than likely did really go down on 9-11-2001:





















Can you say massive false-flag for a pretext to endless war and war profiteering?

Sure you can.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
Here is some convincing evidence that a plane "did" hit the pentagon.
I have not researched this issue a lot, but this site seams pretty legit.
Does anyone here know if the family members of the people that were on this plane have said anything to suggest this did not happen. I would assume that it would be pretty hard to fake the death of all these people. Also the sister of the pilot who flew this plane has spoken out. Is she a fake, made up by the conspirators.
There is convincing evidence on both sides though.
I've seen the videos out there of test planes hitting concrete walls and those planes get completely disintegrated, it is not surprising to me that there are few plane parts found. The following sites show some good photographs of the destruction and evidence of plane parts.
I'm still trying to make up my mind on this one.


http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html
http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm
Edwardmw

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
It would be very easy to create what looks like the missile in this video in Adobe after effects or 3ds Max. Very basic special effects.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
Hey, it's got snarling photos of Rumsfield and Chenney.

IT MUST BE TRUE!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
I agree that the new video floating around of a missile like object could very well be faked. Many cross comparisons with the official video released, time of day, shadows, and looking at the imagery frame by frame has to be done. It could very well be fake.



Hadn't seen this video before today. This guy seems to poke really good holes into the official video that was released from the Pentagon. Things I hadn't considered before . . .


911 Pentagon Footage Fraud - See the MISSING FOOTAGE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnzh-EyxKwc&feature=watch_response_rev
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
Hawkeye is here all the time, wasn't he the guy with the important job?


yeah RJ, some of us are employed. but if you get your rox off being an unemployed, unpaid internet wanker, then more power to you you!
michaeld

Sport climber
Near Tahoe, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
I think we can all agree there is a huge lack of video evidence proving what ever hit the Pentagon, given it's "The Pentagon." You'd think they'd have the best video surveillance, CCTV's everywhere, infrared cameras facing every side of the Pentagon, ect.

But I wouldn't go as far as posting a video montage propaganda style with requiem for a dream playing.

Could of easily been a sophomore in high school's video editing class project.


What can ya do, keep bickering I suppose.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 04:18pm PT

Just googled "Pentagon plane witnesses" and have spent the last few minutes listening to the televised eyewitness accounts of several people who actually saw the aeroplane approach and then hit the Pentagon. They are being interviewed outside the burning building. That took me about five minutes in total.
Homer

Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
Aug 26, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
We have incomplete information. Let's do the reasonable thing and assume that we're right - call other people names for being, well, other people.

The "you individually" is the real illusion.

Carry on us.
OR

Trad climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
me laughing hard
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Aug 26, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
Nice Summary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue6PniAv0r8&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbhbXMfh6eQ&feature=relmfu

Video(s) Breakdown
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBHi9CbrNf4

Debris:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ea0_1193103631
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
Just googled "Pentagon plane witnesses" and have spent the last few minutes listening to the televised eyewitness accounts of several people who actually saw the aeroplane approach and then hit the Pentagon. They are being interviewed outside the burning building. That took me about five minutes in total. ]


Come on now!

Everyone knows they were hipmotizzzed!
















































graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 05:36pm PT
Co-conspirator Werner:
Just the fact that they showed some hundreds of videos on the web of planes or whatever hitting the trade center and NEVER releasing the videos from the cameras at and around the pentagon except some frames with missing frames from one camera shows deception.

They didn't show hundreds of videos of planes hitting the trade center. There are only small handful of videos that are shown hundreds of times. There is only one video of the first plane hitting and that was just luck. Then with everyone attention on the WTC after the first impact, the second plane hit - so more people saw that.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
Ive had the undesirable opportunity to be at about fifteen different airplane wrecks in the past. We went to a site where an f-111 went down on a rocky NV ridge once. The MAIN impact area was only about three feet wide by six feet long, accompanied by a debris field of scattered tiny pieces that went for about two hundred yards. The were NO wing strike markings or anything of that nature- the only thing for sure about high speed jet impacts is that there is nothing for sure.

Ron, please stop stepping on these fools' ignorant speculation with your experience and expertise.

I mean, so what if you have actual experience with FIFTEEN different airplane wrecks! You are pretending that facts and knowledge count for something.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
I heard that it was a drug-laden Lockheed Lodestar that was radio controlled by rogue elements of YOSAR. The purpose was to divert attention away from the Wings of Steel controversy. Werner, can you confirm or deny that there was a secret meeting in one of the YOSAR tent cabins at Camp 4 on the evening on September 10, 2001 where the attack was planned?


We're waiting.
ericulner

climber
Southern Illinois
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
Y'all are a bunch of goofballs. Do missiles also carry lots of luggage, clothing, shoes, passenger seats, and the occasional poor soul still buckled therein?

pfft Grow up.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
Some idiot has broken Werner's password for ST but is doing a piss poor job of impersonating our hero. Scandal.

Anyway the Boeing 757 is a rather small jet compared to 747.
see a side by side pic for scale
http://www.aviationspectator.com/image/photos/civil-aviation/boeing/boeing-707/boeing-707-28



as for the evidence.. identifiable jet turbine parts are tough and many survived the Pentagon attack.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
You can watch it for free and even copy it.

Flight Of American 77 (Full Video: 1:05hrs)
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/


Scroll down to the 8th news title and watch it, copy it. Full NSTB flight recording data completely contradicts The 9-11 Commission Report. The flight data recorder has flight 77 (or whatever it was??????) fully North of the Citgo gas station and too high and not even in the correct flight path to hit the 5 downed telephone poles. The NTSB released flight data recorder puts the jet exactly where the eye-witnesses who are incredibly reliable in full agreement. It did not approach the pentagon from the published OCT point of view. It could not have downed the light poles North of Citgo gas station where the jet was seen.

Something else did. Something that was smaller and flew very fast and low to the ground, that might have possibly knocked down the lightpoles. We aren't sure when the lightpoles got knocked down. They could have been down prior to the entire event occuring. Who knows????????? This is the object in the released Pentagon security video. It isn't UA flight 77.

The official released data already completely invalidates the OCT and they don't want to talk about it.

At least 2 seperate events happening at nearly the same exact time at the Pentagon. A massive jet fly-over from North of Citgo gas station and something else explosive coming in low from the South of the Citgo gas station.

The NTSB flight recorder data agrees with very reliable eye-witnesses North of the Citgo gas station, but completely contradicts the released Pentagon security video footage showing a fast moving object close to the ground and South of the Citgo gas station in line with knocking down light poles.



My hypothesis:
One was a slight of hand decoy, North of the Citgo gas station painted up as flight 77 and flew over The Pentagon as the explosion happened a moment before or after, and the other was something that slammed into The Pentagon that exploded coming in low and fast South of the Citgo gas station. The public official evidence/data pretty much confirms this and really doesn't allow for much else.

One thing is for sure, the official evidence/data released contradicts itself completely, and renders the OCT invalidated. This has massive false-flag written all over it. They even used full-scale magician "slight of hand" techniques to distract our attention, and it worked to a point.

Investigate 9-11-2001 completely and honestly and do it now. The World is waiting for the truth because we know we've been lied to.








So you really think Arabs with box-cutter knives and Osama Bin Laden could have pulled this off? On a day that had over 15+ wargames going on? You really think they could have pulled this off and done all the fine-tune timing involved and getting our miltary defenses to stand-down?

I laugh.







And then I cry for our Country.



Sheeple. Wake the HADES UP!!!!!



Edit:


Like I said TGT. Wake up!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:29pm PT

Look into my eyes.................
Klimmer!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
If it were a cruise missle, where's AA Flight 77?

Evidence shows that a Boeing 757 did not hit the Pentagon. It's not up to the Official Story deniers to explain what happened to that flight, it's up to those that claim the Official Story to explain the evidence that we do have.

There is so much evidence contradicting the Official 9/11 story, it would make your head spin if you actually tried to resolve all the inaccuracies. For me, the most obvious point to pick is the Pentagon story.

Watch the first 30 minutes of this video and see if you can still reasonably claim that a Boeing 757 hit that building. Simply, there is no evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon:

In Plane Site
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
Klimmer - bet you did not know that the area around the Pentagon is protected by a GPS misinformation signal system that blankets the real signals from
the satellites.

That was the first thing the generals did in the Pentagon
when the GPS constellation was being launched. Duh!

Nobody wanted to make it easy for a UAV to follow GPS right into the
Pentagon. Unfortunately the 757 had a human on the stick.
Gene

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
Klimmer,

Help me out please. What does 'OCT' mean? Thanks.

g
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
Simply, there is no evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon:


BUAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
Simply, there is no evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon:

Except the people who saw it.....
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
But many many witnesses actually saw the plane hit the Pentagon. Did you even bother to look at the links provided just above? Klimmer's risible and desperate "simultaneous missile and plane attack" is pretty sad too.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
And the remnants of the plane, complete with seral numbers on the parts.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:48pm PT
CC,

Sorry. No go. The very reliable eye-witnesses put the jet seen just North of the Citgo gas station. The flight data recorder released by the NTSB for the supposed Flight 77 is in full exact agreement. And this can not be the path South of Citgo going through telephone poles shown in the Pentagon security video. They invalidate each other. The only way for both to be correct is that they happened nearly at the same time. Bingo.


Q: What International Airport is right next to The Pentagon? So all these jets are flying into Washington -- Reagan International, with hands on only because the Pentagon is scrambling their GPS signals?




I laugh.






And the remnants of the plane, complete with seral numbers on the parts.



I laugh again.

Those who want the truth have been begging for this kind of evidence forever. It is never given as it should be in any full aviation accident investigation done by the NSTB.

We don't have this evidence for 9-11-2001.




Edit:


OCT = Official Conspiracy Theory

. . . as set forth by the 9-11 Ommision Report. Oops. Mybad. The 9-11 Commission Debacle. Oooopsie again. Dang can't type today. The 9-11 Commision Re-do of Reality. Oh, I give up.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
Klimmer -your fantasies about 9/11 are incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial.

Learn a few simple things about RF, GPS, and airport ATC and you'll understand, but most of all learn about national security and start that conspiracy theory mind on the track of why
the Pentagon in not going to explain any of its defense systems to you
or the public.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
Did you even bother to look at the links provided just above?
    Jaytee

Come on Jaytee, admit it. You didn't look at my link, did you?

Serial number on the parts? hahahahahahahaha

Oh man, you guys will believe anything.






But many many witnesses actually saw the plane hit the Pentagon.

And Many Many people saw something OTHER THAN A PLANE hit the Pentagon.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
K-man

Well I haven't seen any interviews online yet with these mysterious many many you claim. I have however watched several tonight by very credible witnesses who had seen a large airliner crash into the Pentagon.

I have previously seen the wild-eyed gentleman who presents the link you attach such credence to, so didn't need to watch any more of his "research".

So you believe these witnesses are, an hour or so after having seen a large airliner crash into the Pentagon, planted as stooges by some mysterious overlord, for the TV companies' reporters to interview? Or are the reporters and witnesses both in the dark control of the Overlords? Or do you believe Klimmer's desperate last stand hypotheseis of simultaneous missile and plane attack?

WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 07:28pm PT
They haven't shown any of the videos yet.

Just one with a few frames with missing frames. Big ass red flag.

Even after congressional committees requesting them.

If a 757 flew into the pentagon and that's what they say then they'd release the video evidence.

They never do.

But they might release them when they finally get the software good enough where no one can tell the photo shop manipulations.

Instead all these idiot sheep believe them saying a 757 flew into it.

Modern science hypothesis, theory, experiment.

No real world experiment was ever done.

Thus .... hypothesis, theory and then speak all nonsense .....

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
I have previously seen the wild-eyed gentleman who presents the link you attach such credence to, so didn't need to watch any more of his "research".
    Jaytee



I'm trying to understand what your sentence means.

But, it's not "research" he is presenting, so to blow it off without watching it indicates to me that your mind is closed.


How about this: Why is the "official" video released of the Pentagon crash dated 9-12-2001?

I'm sure you have a good reason for that.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
They haven't shown any of the videos yet.

Just one with a few frames with missing frames. Big ass red flag.

Even after congressional committees requesting them.

The pictures that we have are not true video--they are from a crappy security camera that takes still pictures only every second or so. A second is a long time. If the plane was flying 500 mph it was traveling 733 feet per second. So its not surprising that the security camera missed it. To capture this, you want a high fps camera with a fast shutter speed.

Do we know that there are other pictures or videos that have not been released? Or is that speculation?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:38pm PT

Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:38pm PT
kman-

What I mean is what I said - I watched a whole programme of this mans 9-11 drivel a couple of years ago. I don't need to watch it again thanks. Can you now direct your attention to the interviews with people who an hour or so previously had seen a jet airliner crash into the Pentagon? It's not hard. Just do it.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:40pm PT
graniteclimber, the still frames that were released were dated Sept 12, 2001. For some reason, I find that odd.

Take a look at the link I posted, it shows the number of security cameras around the side of the Pentagon where the explosion occurred. Also, video was confiscated shortly after the event, even as folks were watching it.

But don't watch the link if you think you already know it all. Closed minds are useless.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
Jaytee, I have seen many videos of folks saying they saw a plane hit the Pentagon. Yes, I have watched them. I've also seen many of folks who claim that without a doubt, what they say was NOT a plane.

Have you read the accounts of the folks who were in the Pentagon when the explosion occurred?


(PS, your statement above did not convey that you'd previously watched the whole "In Plane Site" film, sorry for hounding you on that. From watching that, I think it's pretty clear that no plane laden with gasoline hit the building.)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
graniteclimber, the still frames that were released were dated Sept 12, 2001. For some reason, I find that odd.

There may be a couple explanation for that. Wrong date on computer with the computaters?

Take a look at the link I posted, it shows the number of security cameras around the side of the Pentagon where the explosion occurred. Also, video was confiscated shortly after the event, even as folks were watching it.

It WAS a national security event. I am not surprised at all.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
K-man

I'd be grateful for some links to these interviews you've seen. Thanks in advance.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
Why is the "official" video released of the Pentagon crash dated 9-12-2001

It's not. The date was added later at the same time as the "impact 1" "impact 2" etc. text was added. It's not a timestamp.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:55pm PT
http://911review.com/attack/pentagon/witnesses.html
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
k-man

Very poor K-man. You know exactly what I mean. Now post up some TV interviews with witnesses just as credible as the ones that have been provided for you above. You said you'd seen them. Many many of them.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
"The fuselage of a 757 did not open that 16-foot hole," Wittenberg said.

"The aluminum of the fuselage would have crumbled like an egg shell on impact.

Aluminum doesn't vaporize. There is no armor-piercing titanium on the tip of a 757,"


So when are you guys gonna fly that 757 into a replica wall of the pentagon?

Yeah right I hear ya .. "hypothesis, theory and then speak all nonsense .....

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
Is there any explanation why the people aboard the Pentagon flight are all missing?

Did Cheney kill them all, along with the plane???

Your guys' logic is flawed and very sketchy.

You people sooooo want to believe that Bush and Cheney killed people, and simultaneously discredit him for his dumbfounded look when alerted to the news, that your theories just hold no water.

And what about the crash gear on the ground? There were definitive plane parts found.

Why keep this sh#t up? You're all prolly the same people that call foul on Birthers too. Hypocritical?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
Walleye

When are you gonna come back to the valley and drive the tow truck again so we can talk sh'it at the gas pumps again?
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
If there was a conspiracy how come no one has spilled the beans yet?
The only thing we know for sure is how the govt used 911 to gain control and jack around with civil liberties.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
I'm not talking about no conspiracy.

I wanna know how this big ass plane could do what it did.

Are you gonna fly it thru that wall in that flight pattern?

Hypothesis, theory and then experiment, science!

Instead no experiment, and then speak all nonsense .....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
Jaytee, Sorry, from the page I provided above, you can find this:


http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/jetliner.html

I find this site to be very straight-forward in the information it provides. For instance, as this page shows, most eye-witnesses saw a 757 or 737 fly into the Pentagon, and it does a good analysis of those that don't believe a plane hit the building.

But, the site also poses the question of why the facade of the Pentagon did not get damage corresponding to such a plane hitting it. There was no damage where the tail should have hit. Why? Answer that question in a sensible manner, and I'll begin to sway my belief. However, as it stands, I cannot understand why there is no damage where there should be.


Bluey, if things made sense, then I'd stop wondering. But, as it stands there are Many things that don't make sense, and there are many contradictions in the Official Story. If you want to glaze over them, that's up to you.

Leaps of Faith required to believe the official story: http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/index.html

9-11 Anomalies: http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/anomalies.html

I'm not going to try to convince you that if it smells like a fish, that it's likely a fish. Read up and use your brain instead of believing what is fed to you by the powers that be.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
Are you gonna fly it thru that wall in that flight pattern?

Hypothesis, theory and then experiment, science!

Instead no experiment, and then speak all nonsense .....

Werner wants to run an experiment. He wants to take a 757, fill it with people and fly it into the Pentagon. Any volunteers? I already have Werner signed up but there are many other seats we need to fill.

We also need to buy a 757 so donations are appreciated.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 08:38pm PT
No I'm not gonna put anyone in it except you granite tool.

I'll fill the rest with dummies.

Obviously you're too stupid to even think of that.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
k-man

I just clicked on your link, but found no video of TV interviews with witnesses outside the burning Pentagon. I dont mean to be mean, and you've been very polite with me in your replies, but you did say you'd seen many interviews with witnesses who saw something other than a plane hit the Pentagon.
Even the links you have furnished only corroborate the version of events that common sense tells one is true i.e. that the witnesses to a huge jet airliner crashing into the Pentagon are very credible.

It seems open and shut to me.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
Werner, we're putting you in the cockpit.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
Jaytee, you can find many movies about 9-11 that show video of eye witnesses claiming that what they saw was not a commercial airliner. I'm not going to hunt them down, I'd have to watch Loose Change and pinpoint where in the movie you can find the footage. Also, I believe the "In Plane Site" link above has such footage.

That said, there is this (my emphasis):

Because of the absence of public evidence proving that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon and assertions that damage to the building and crash debris were inconsistent with the crash of such a large aircraft, speculation has flourished about what really hit the Pentagon on September 11th. Most such speculation ignores, discounts, or misrepresents the abundant eyewitness evidence that a jetliner flew into the building and exploded.

This quote is from: http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/attack/index.html

On the page, the quote above contains links that back up the claims that the "crash and debris were inconsistent with the crash of such a large aircraft," and more.

So, while it does appear that eye witnesses saw a large plane flying into the Pentagon, there are many questions that remain about what actually happened there.

Again, why no impact zone where the tail would have hit?

What happened to the tail?

Why do the Officials not release footage that would prove their claims?
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
k-man, just read the sentence you've underlined again a few times. Then again. Then think about it for a few more minutes. Get back to me when you've grasped what it's saying. You'll kick yourself, then will finally be able to move on.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
The following video and very reliable eye-witness testimony completely agrees with the Flight Data Recorder evidence that has been released by the NTSB regarding supposedly AA flight 77, which completely contradicts the OCT as put forth by the 9-11 Commission Report:


NATIONAL SECURITY ALERT - 9/11 PENTAGON ATTACK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5FhQc-LJ-o










The OCT is easily and completely debunked -- it is invalidated.

Investigate 9-11-2001
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
OK Jaytee, I do grasp what it says, that's why I underlined it (smartass).

My response: What happened to the tail?

Maybe once you grasp what this means, you'll begin to understand why I don't buy the official story.

And why you're such a fool for buying it.

I've provided links, you ignore them, what can I say.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
I wanna know how this big ass plane could do what it did.


Real simple physics.

1/2 MV Squared. / the area of the impact.

The same reason a marble size piece of copper can squirt thru a foot of armor plate steel like it was butter.

200,000lb airplane at 500 mph with a 16 ft diameter nose?

That's about 21-1/2 MILLION foot pounds of energy per square foot.

Also why about everything that went thru the hole was for the most part vaporized.

BTW the tail of a 757 is for the most part carbon fiber. Not that that matters much. There was enough energy to vaporize aluminum.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
K-man

The bodies of the poor unfortunates on that flight were spread over the building and identified painstakingly by DNA forensics. Google some information on that.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
This answers many of the questions.

The suppressed video of the attack has been leaked.

One thing for sure-- it was not an airplane!

http://youtu.be/9fLBl_7qL2E
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:03pm PT
TGT -- "Real simple physics."

Good.

When does the experiment start?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:04pm PT
You are all avoiding the question: Why no impact zone where the tail should have hit?

You are all so smart, this is such an easy question.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
When does the experiment start?

Are you volunteering for the left seat?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
The bodies of the poor unfortunates on that flight were spread over the building and identified painstakingly by DNA forensics. Google some information on that.

That's another one of Werner's mysteries. He's trying to figure out how "they" moved everyone from the BIG 757 into a tiny little cruise missile. His theory is that they used mass hallucination just like when they faked the moon landings. Everyone knows that the moon is really swiss cheese being flown around the world by a helicopter.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
k-man

What's with your obsession with the flimsy aluminium tail of the plane? Huge jet engines crashed into the Pentagon at over 500 miles an hour and caused enormous damage. Many peoples' bodies were identified over the following months. Many many people witnessed this happen. Those witnesses are online for you to see. All you've done is post up some half-assed conspiracy site that even you don't seem able to grasp the implications of. Have you read that sentence you underlined yet, and given it some thought?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
No

It's easy to do on a crash test sled rig into the replica pentagon reinforce walls with a plane full of dummies.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
This says it can't go that fast 500 mph but what do I know?

"757s don't go that fast. The airplane will just not do that," Russ Wittenberg, a retired pilot with United and Pan Am airlines, said.

"Its exceeding its air speed and mach speed limitations. The airplane just won't perform those maneuvers.

The mach limit for a 757 is about 360 knots at 23,000 feet," Wittenberg said."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
There's no reason to duplicate on a test sled what's been observed in hundreds of high angle of attack high speed aircraft crashes.

It's not called "Augering in" for nothing.

Just a small smokin hole is all that's left.

The 360K airspeed limitation takes into consideration things like turbulence, wind gust loading, bird strikes etc. It's a limit for prudent, safe operation. What the airframe is capable is way higher than that.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
The missle was largely constructed with authentic pieces of Noah's Ark and was funded, in part, by Michelle Bachmann. I know this to be true because i read it on the Internet.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
TGT

Modern science hypothesis, theory, experiment.

No experiment, then

You're blowing smoke .....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
You can see damage from the wings on both sides of the big hole left by the fuselage and tail section. The "small" and it's rally not that small round hole that the nuts like to point to was the exit hole on the other side, not the impact hole.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:17pm PT
The whole section had to be rebuilt.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:19pm PT
So those claims that it was a missile that was radio-controlled from the back of this car--don't believe them! It's a lie!


They were the only ones who had the technical expertise to pull off such large operation, but it wasn't them.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
Even the flight control personnel viewing on radar the approach to the Pentagon admitted AA flight 77 (supposedly) was doing maneuvers only a military aircraft could perform on 9-11-2001.

And the pilot couldn't even get a commercial airline license. He couldn't even fly a Cessna properly. The instructor had very grave concerns regarding his flying abilities, what he couldn't do, and what he was requesting to be able to do. Huge dichotomy and contradiction between his ability and his desire.

Even experienced 757 pilots say they couldn't do what he did.




But you guys want to keep beleiving in OCT fairy-tales. Sad. Really sad.
monolith

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
Why no impact zone where the tail should have hit?

er, um, the '16 foot' hole on the second floor, on top of the wide hole on the first floor?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:23pm PT
All you've done is post up some half-assed conspiracy site that even you don't seem able to grasp the implications of.
    Jaytee


You're an ass.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:23pm PT
He couldn't even fly a Cessna properly.

No kidding!1111 Helluva way to "land" an airplane!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
Why no impact zone where the tail should have hit?

er, um, the '16 foot' hole on the second floor, on top of the wide hole on the first floor?

Stop trying to confuse him with the facts!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
No experiment, then

You're blowing smoke .....

The experiment has been performed many times by no longer live subjects.

The weren't blowing smoke.

They just left behind a smoking hole.

And maybe a dog tag in a bootlace.

Do you know why aircrew commonly lace an extra dog tag into one of their boots?
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
Fiction.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
er, um, the '16 foot' hole on the second floor, on top of the wide hole on the first floor?

Funny, I haven't seen that in the many pictures I've looked at.
In fact, there is no 16' hole on the 2nd floor. Sorry.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
k-man

Sorry for offending you k-man but really, come on, this is such childish nonsense. You're not telling me you're in the same deluded world as Klimmer for God's sake?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
TGT

You're blowing smoke.

The experiment was not done.

The only thing being done is bullshiting ......
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
Has anyone mentioned that the outer Pentagon windows are all blast/bullet
resistant composite type stuff? Mounted in toughened frames that match the original double hung windows. Reason why so many are still intact close to the impact area.

And note the incredibly thick concrete walls and floors. The place was built to be a fort btw.

See this fort like construction, here exposed by the collapsed area.
The 60 year old reinforced concrete was strong enough to fend off a mid size jet like the 757. The fire is what caused the collapse after burning for awhile.

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/10.jpg
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
Jaytee and others,

If you don't see the inconsistencies in the Official Story, then you aren't looking. The lies there are as big as the hole in the Pentagon.

The site I posted takes a very objective view of the evidence, it discounts the fringe elements and focuses on the real anomalies. If you want to glaze over them, so be it. The Official Story is full of cover-ups. Close your eyes, you won't see them. But open your eyes, and you will be able to understand why so many people want the truth.

Out.

Leaps of Faith Required to Accept the Official Story

Anomalies of the September 11th Attack, Its Run-Up, and Response
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
They have the videos of whatever hit the pentagon but they won't release them even after congressional committees request them.

It's hidden under "National Security".

This raises a huge red flag and suspicion.

When ghetto boy goes to rob granny in the liquor store and Granny ends up beating the sh'it out of ghetto boy it's immediately all over the net as evidence.

monolith

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
Hilarious K-man, so ignorent. Pretty much everyone knows the '16-foot' hole was on the second floor, except you and Rox.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
Mono, how about a picture?
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:43pm PT
Werner

When witnesses to a huge jet flying into the Pentagon are interviewed outside it's smouldering hulk an hour later, that's all over the net too. There are links to them on this thread you've started.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
Jaytee

I said video.

I didn't mention any yapping by anyone.

Anyone can say anything .....
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
Dropping in here late without reading first, but "Loose Change" I believe was the name it... was a DVD that came out about 911 a few years ago. Good entertainment... I didn't see it as anything more than that, but I appreciated it as entertainment. Like the movie JFK... a truly great story and movie, IMO.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
you have to work backwards from facts everyone will acknowledge.

the pentagon and the rest of the heart of washington d.c. is the most protected airspace in the world. there was a lead time of about 40 minutes after the attacks in new york, plenty of time to scramble a horde of fighter jets from andrews afb. nothing--nothing, nothing, nothing--was up there to protect the nation's capital. ever wonder what you're paying all those taxes for, supporting that great high-tech aerospace/defense industry and the most expensive military in the world? on the one day it was supposed to be really doing its thing ...

then we have the complete lack of video evidence. this footage from chris bollyn is not particularly new or impressive. but just think about it for a minute. not only is the pentagon the most protected building in the world, but it's also the most monitored. the government releases nothing in the way of footage from any of its camera monitors. AND, according to all reports, the feebs rush out and confiscate security camera footage from the nearby hotel and gas station. what is there to hide? we can only conclude, plenty.

the CIT is a group of young fellows from orange county who, at their own expense and motivated by the highest patriotism, has made several trips to d.c., interviewing as many eyewitnesses as possible. they have pieced together a scenario which explains the pentagon evidence credibly. the government can't even come close.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:52pm PT








The 16 foot hole or so is split approx. between the 1st and 2nd floor. Perhaps a little more of the hole is on the 1st floor.

Where is the damage from the massive 40'+ tail stabalizer? Why are the windows still intact with foam on them from the fire-fighters? How does solid go thriugh solid?

Miracles happened on 9-11-2001 violating all the laws of physics that are known at this time. Amazing.

You guys really do believe in fairy-tales. Incredible.

Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
Werner

Yapping? Look at the interviews man. Try and find anybody interviewed at that time "yapping" about having seen a missile fly into the Pentagon. For God's sake man, it's just so insulting to the people who died on that plane. If you were joking it'd be in poor taste, but I get the feeling you get perverse pleasure out of this deeply offensive sh#t.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
Jaytee

Something seriously is wrong with you.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
Werner

What do you mean by that? You discount the credible eyewitness accounts available above for you to view, on a thread you started, and think I've got some problems?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:07pm PT
The flight of AA flight 77. Do we really know that it ever got close to the pentagon? No.

We known that the following phone call did not happen and could not happen the way the OCT said it happened. Massive lie.


From:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/


Could Barbara Olson Have Made Those Calls?
An Analysis of New Evidence about Onboard Phones

David Ray Griffin and Rob Balsamo
06/26/07 - Did AA 77---the flight that, according to the official conspiracy theory about 9/11, struck the Pentagon---have onboard phones? This question is relevant to the possible truth of the official theory, because Ted Olson, who was then the US Solicitor General, claimed that his wife, Barbara Olson, called him twice from this flight using an onboard phone. Full Article
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/amrarticle.html


Documents of testimony:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/AA757AMM.html


Dear Mr. XXXXXXXX:

Thank you for contacting Customer Relations. I am pleased to have the opportunity to assist you.

That is correct we do not have phones on our Boeing 757. The passengers on flight 77 used their own personal cellular phones to make out calls during the terrorist attack.

However, the pilots are able to stay in constant contact with the Air Traffic Control tower.

Mr. XXXXXXXX, I hope this information is helpful. It is a privilege to serve you. This is an "outgoing only" email address. If you 'reply' to this message by simply selecting the reply button, we will not receive your additional comments. Please assist us in providing you with a timely response to any feedback you have for us by always sending us your email messages via AA.com at http://www.aa.com/customerrelations.

Sincerely,
Chad Kinder
Customer Relations
American Airlines



6/27/07 - Revolution Radio with host Mike Swenson interviewing David Ray Griffin and Rob Balsamo regarding this article. DRG and RB are on Hour 2, but both hours are excellent. (right click and save target as...)
Hour 1
http://truthorlies.org/06-26-07-Hour-1.mp3
Hour 2
http://truthorlies.org/06-26-07-Hour-2.mp3



monolith

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
Er, um, Klimmer, the tail isn't 40+ feet high. That's the top off the ground with the landing gear down silly boy.

And since it slants back, the lower portion will hit first, tending to destroy it before the top hits.

The 16-foot hole is on the second floor.


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
You discount the credible eyewitness accounts...
-- Jaytee



With all due respect Jaytee, I believe you are doing the same.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
Do you folks know anything at all about cruise missiles? Ever seen one close
up or in a photo with something which would allow you to judge scale? How
about a cruise missile engine? Ever bother to just jump on Wikipedia and look up the
physical specifications of a cruise missile or one of their engines? No? Well,
if you had you could point out a problem with this photo from the assertion linked
in the OP.


Here's a hint fresh from Libya:


Basic fact checking, part of the abc's of journalism 101. I know that's a tall bar
for some folks with websites, but come on people, a little common sense still goes
a long way even in conspiracies...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
Mono, 44' 6" with gear down.

If it was a bit above the ground when it hit (as the pictures show), then there should be an impact where the tail hit the building.

I don't see an impact zone where there should be one.

Mono, you called me "so ignorent" [sic] for not seeing that the 16' hole that was made by the tail.


EDIT: Funny, I would never guess that that was a picture of where a 757 vaporized, mono. More power to you if you believe all the Original Story.
Homer

Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
Werner - thanks for your posts - I'm not sure what you're saying in this thread.

That we have incomplete information - we don't know for sure what happened? We're using all of the information we have to come to a conclusion, and even though we're all sure we're right, we don't have enough information to know that we're right?

Or you have a belief one way or the other that separates you from the sheeple? You've conducted some experiments on, for instance, what video evidence is available that has been suppressed, what "they" do when the evidence supports them, what eyewitnesses will say in these situations, etc.

Or are you just calling attention to the challenge of our situation - living with incomplete information?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 11:11pm PT
Homer

These two are good.

That we have incomplete information - we don't know for sure what happened? We're using all of the information we have to come to a conclusion, and even though we're all sure we're right, we don't have enough information to know that we're right?

Or are you just calling attention to the challenge of our situation - living with incomplete information?

Thanks for actually being someone who see clearly ......
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:17pm PT
They have the videos of whatever hit the pentagon but they won't release them even after congressional committees request them.

Yes, they are a secret government warehouse in a wooden crate just to the left of the crate holding the Ark of the Covenant and just to the left of the crates holding the skeleton of the Roswell aliens.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:20pm PT

What is a giant bicycle freewheel doing in the middle of the Pentagon wreckage?

This is proof that there was no airplane. It was a giant bicycle.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
C'mon guys. Pull a dang ruler out and scale it and measure things. But, it has already been done for you.

The 16' foot hole is nearly split between the 1st and 2nd floor. Stop lying. Infact, the top of the hole is nearly even with the top of the windows on the 2nd floor. The hole doesn't even go to the ceiling of the second floor.


The hole is nearly split equally between the 1st and 2nd floor. I would argue that it goes down to the ground but we can't see the ground because of the debri of the building.




*Note: The jet couldn't be any lower than the 2 engines below the wing. The engines hang low, so the point about the landing gears not being down is pretty mute. There were no massive trenches dug by the massive engines in "The Pentalawn." In fact it is pretty darn pristine for a massive 757 just flying over it by mere inches or feet wouldn't you say? See above image. Golf anyone?








By all estimates I've seen, the vertical stabilizer of a 757 would have come to the bottom of the 4th story windows of the Pentagon at a minimum. The 16' foot hole comes to the top of the 2nd story windows only. Again, here did the vertical stabilizer go through the Pentagon? Where did the full size of the wings go through? Where did the 2 massive engines go through the Pentagon? For the main fuselage of the 757 to go through that 16 foot hole it must have been greased down with Crisco. And I suppose the wings just folded up like a massive umbrella and just squeezed through along with it huh? And then no massive wreckage. The images immediately after the impact don't show a lot of wreckage on The Pentalawn. Only images after the collapse to the roof and then after that. The lawn after the immediate impact is pretty pristine.





Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:31pm PT
k-man

Also with all due respect - I asked you to post links to TV interviews, conducted as are the ones posted on this thread, with witnesses who saw anything other than a big jet airliner hit the Pentagon.

If there were any they would obviously be all over net, and you would have posted them. You didn't because they aren't any. How much more obvious does it have to be?

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:52pm PT
So, are you guys gonna take the Red Pill or the Blue Pill?

What's it gonna be?


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:23am PT
Ron,

All we have to do is invalidate the OCT. That has been done over and over again.

We don't have to say what they did with the flights and the passengers.

Read all about "Operation Northwoods."

Our government has done and is willing to do heinous crimes for its own immoral purposes. That is a fact.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/index.html


I highly suggest everyone read Jesse Ventura's 2 books. They are well written and well researched. They are co-authored with Dick Russell. Eye opening.

Jesse is a brave man and I have a great deal of respect for him. He doesn't have a college degree but the man is incredibly smart and savvy. He is willing to go where the real evidence goes. Many others would be cowards in his position by comparison.

American Conspiracies
http://www.amazon.com/American-Conspiracies-Dirty-Government-Tells/dp/160239802X

63 Documents the Government Doesn't Want You to Read
http://www.amazon.com/Documents-Government-Doesnt-Want-Read/dp/1616082267/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b



Edit to add:

Jesse Ventura Interview / 63 Documents - Part 1 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7qIhgP9pUA
Jesse Ventura Interview / 63 Documents Part 2 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=JbWcPC7X9iE
Jesse Ventura Interview / 63 Documents - Part 3 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=S2Q2jzglb7o
Jesse Ventura Interview / 63 Documents - Part 4 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36herIqfs_E&NR=1
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:30am PT
Jaytee - you have to watch what "witnesses" say. Remember the big gas line explosion in San Bruno Ca a little while ago. I was watching the news right after it happened. They interviewed a group of people watching the fire and one guy said he SAW a plane crash into the houses.





No plane, just gas.
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:40am PT




Normally I don't add to conspiracy theories, but Operation Northwoods clearly describes how the US government planned to apparently blow up planes full of people during the cold war/cuban missle crisis, etc.

It is an interesting read, the PDF file is scanned from the typewriter files.



So even though it is outside of the average American's ability to imagine, it IS something your Government dreamed up years ago and put on paper.









The other thing... I kept my cellphone on every flight I have taken since 9/11. To see if it works. Flown out of a dozen airports (SEA,LAX,new york, dallas, chicago, etc) with Sprint and ATT. Couldn't get service long enough after take off or before landing to make calls as long as they claimed were made. Has anyone else been able to get better service than I have? 20 flights this year alone for me.
Mimi

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:27am PT
Barbara Olson died on that plane among many others at that crash site.

Anyone stating that that attack was anything else than a plane crashing into the Pentagon is a total whackjob and should be shunned for their inanity.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:30am PT
Even the US government is backing off the Cell phone fairy tales on 9-11-2001.

I used my Kycera 2001 cell phone on a flight across the US from coast to coast in about 2004. Nada. Zip. Nothing. Only right after take-off until we were about 2000 feet off the ground, and similar with landing did I ever get a signal. The rest of the flight no bars. Zip. Not possible to call, and not possible to receive.





Could Barbara Olson Have Made Those Calls?

An Analysis of New Evidence about On-board Phones

David Ray Griffin and Rob Balsamo
06/26/07 - Did AA 77---the flight that, according to the official conspiracy theory about 9/11, struck the Pentagon---have onboard phones? This question is relevant to the possible truth of the official theory, because Ted Olson, who was then the US Solicitor General, claimed that his wife, Barbara Olson, called him twice from this flight using an onboard phone. Full Article
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/amrarticle.html


Documents of testimony:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/AA757AMM.html



United States v. Ted Olson

In the course of doing research for this article, we learned, to our amazement, that even if, contrary to our evidence, Flight 77 did have functioning onboard phones, the US government has now said, implicitly, that Ted Olson’s claim about receiving two calls from his wife that morning is untrue.

As we mentioned earlier, the FBI report on phone calls from AA planes on 9/11 does not cite records from the DOJ showing that any calls from AA 77 were received that morning. Instead, the FBI report refers merely to four “connected calls to unknown numbers.” The 9/11 Commission, putting the best possible spin on this report, commented: “The records available for the phone calls from American 77 do not allow for a determination of which of [these four calls] represent the two between Barbara and Ted Olson, although the FBI and DOJ believe that all four represent communications between Barbara Olson and her husband’s office.”27 That is, it must be said, a very strange conclusion: If Ted Olson reported receiving only two calls, why would the Commission conclude that the DOJ had received four connected calls from his wife?

That conclusion is, in any case, starkly contradicted by evidence about phone calls from Flight 77 presented by the US government at the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui in 2006.28 Far from attributing all four of the “connected calls to unknown numbers” to Barbara Olson, as the 9/11 Commission suggested, the government’s evidence here attributes none of them to her, saying instead that each of them was from an “unknown caller.” The only call attributed to Barbara Olson, moreover, is an “unconnected call” to the Department of Justice, which was said to have been attempted at “9:18:58” and to have lasted “0 seconds.” According to the US government in 2006, in other words, Barbara Olson attempted a call to the DOJ, but it did not go through.29 The government itself has presented evidence in a court of law, therefore, that implies that unless its former solicitor general was the victim of two faked phone calls, he was lying.

It may seem beyond belief that the US government would have failed to support Ted Olson’s claim. We ourselves, as we indicated, were amazed at this development. However, it would not be the first time that the FBI---surely the agency that prepared this report about phone calls from the flights30---had failed to support the official story about 9/11. We refer to the fact that when Rex Tomb, the FBI’s chief of investigative publicity, was asked why the bureau’s website on “Usama bin Laden” does not list 9/11 as one of the terrorist acts for which he is wanted, he replied: “[T]he FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”31

In any case, an interesting question about the government’s claim concerning the four “connected calls” from AA 77 is whether they were supposedly made from cell phones or passenger-seat phones. The government’s Moussaoui-trial evidence does not explicitly say. We can, however, make an inference based on its evidence for phone calls made from United Flight 93.

Although it had been generally believed that there had been approximately ten cell phone calls from UA 93---including the four widely publicized calls reported by Deena Burnett from her husband, Tom Burnett---the government’s document on this flight identifies only two calls as cell phone calls: those made at 9:58 by passenger Edward Felt and flight attendant CeeCee Lyles. One might conclude from this information, to be sure, that the government simply remained neutral on some of the other calls that had been thought to be cell phone calls, such as the Burnett calls, leaving open whether they were from cell or onboard phones. But that is not the case. A reporter at the Moussaoui trial wrote:




In the back of the plane, 13 of the terrified passengers and crew members made 35 air phone calls and two cell phone calls to family members and airline dispatchers, a member of an FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force testified Tuesday.32




The government explicitly said, therefore, that only two of the calls from UA 93---which were identified in the government’s report on this flight as being from Felt and Lyles33---were cell phone calls.

We can infer, therefore, that because these calls from Felt and Lyles are the only two calls from all the flights that are identified as cell phone calls, all the calls from the other flights are now said by the government to have been made from onboard phones.34

The distinctive thing about the calls from Felt and Lyles is that they reportedly occurred at 9:58, after United 93 had descended to about 5,000 feet. By limiting the cell phone calls from all four flights to these two from UA 93, the government is no longer, even implicitly, supporting the view that high-altitude cell phone calls from airliners are possible. The government has thereby implicitly overcome, by conceding the point, one of the 9/11 movement’s main arguments against the government’s conspiracy theory.

This is a rather amazing development. Much of the official story about 9/11 has been based on the assumption that high-altitude cell phone calls were made. The film United 93, for example, portrayed five cell phone conversations. The 9/11 Commission Report, discussing UA 93, said: “Shortly [after 9:32], the passengers and flight crew began a series of calls from GTE airphones and cellular phones.”35

Four cell phone calls from UA 93 were, as mentioned earlier, supposed to have been made by Tom Burnett.36 His wife, Deena Burnett, repeatedly said Tom used his cell phone. She knew this, she said, because the Caller ID identified his cell phone as the source.37 Her testimony has been repeated countless times in the media. For example, a special segment about her on CBS’s Early Show said: “Tom Burnett made four cell phone calls from Flight 93 to Deena Burnett at home, telling her he and some other passengers were going to ‘do something.’” In a letter published in the National Review, Tom’s father spoke of “Tom's four cell-phone calls from Flight 93 to his wife, Deena.”38

The government’s evidence presented in 2006 at the Moussaoui trial, however, implies that she was mistaken, even though, given her statement that she saw her husband’s Caller ID number, the government’s new position means that she was either lying or, as we believe, the victim of a faked call using a device that, besides morphing her husband’s voice, faked his Caller ID number.39

However, although the government has undercut much of the basis for the official and popular accounts of 9/11 by denying the occurrence of any high-altitude cell phone calls, it has, by paying this price, protected itself from the 9/11 truth movement’s charge that the official story is falsified by the fact that such calls are impossible.

We come now, in any case, to the implication of the government’s Moussaoui-trial evidence about phone calls for the government’s position on whether AA 77 had onboard phones. According to this evidence, there were five connected calls from AA 77: one from Renee May and four from “unknown callers.” Given what we have learned from the government’s evidence about calls from UA 93---that all calls not identified as cell phone calls are said to have been made from onboard phones---we can conclude that, by virtue of not identifying any of the five “connected calls” from this flight as cell phone calls, the government is implying that this plane did have onboard phones. It does not, therefore, support our view on this issue.

Nevertheless, whether one accepts our evidence, which indicates that there were not any onboard phones on AA 77 from which calls could have been made, or trusts the government’s evidence presented at the Moussaoui trial, the conclusion is the same: The two conversations reported by Ted Olson did not happen.



The US Government has conceded that cell phones don't work from high altitude passenger jets. We've been saying this all along. They have had to admit many calls did not happen that were used as evidence and portrayed in the OCT as though they did happen.
jbaker

Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:59am PT
I was across the Potomac from the Pentagon on 9/11. I'd just come out of a building, where I'd watched the attacks on the WTC on TV. I was looking in the direction of the Pentagon. The Pentagon itself was blocked by buildings in the foreground. A jet that looked the size and shape of a 757 came in at extremely high speed from the N/NE (roughly - following the Potomac), streaking downward.

It went out of sight for a second, blocked by the foreground, and then the sound and flames of the explosion leapt up from behind the buildings in the foreground. It was clear it had hit the Pentagon. It was an awful sight, knowing a plane full of people had just been deliberately steered into a building full of people.

There is no way it was a cruise missile.

jbaker

Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:27am PT
Kevin:

It is hard for me to joke about it, even after 10 years. It was an intense day, even for someone who was only peripherally touched by it. I knew a couple of people in the Twin Towers, and friends of friends were killed in the Pentagon.

After the hit on the Pentagon, I started to take the Metro back to my office to check on people, realized it was really stupid to be underground near the Capitol, and got off and walked across the city. I had to circle around the Capitol to get to my office, and everyone was clearly expecting a hit on it. I could see jets flying CAP overhead. Helicopters were shuttling bigwigs to undisclosed locations. Troops were setting up perimeters and checkpoints.

My office was a couple blocks away from the Capitol. I got there after detouring around and using back streets, and the remaining staff and interns were milling around, trying to figure out what to do. We closed the office and ordered everyone out. Some people were heading out to the farthest stops of the Metro, just to get as far away as possible from another potential hit.

I walked from the SE to the NW. The streets were packed with cars trying to get the hell out of the Metro area. People were in the streets, just trying to connect with each other and make sense of it. I finally got to my apartment, where my girlfriend, who'd moved to DC on the 9th after a two year bi-coastal long distance relationship, was trying to figure out what the hell she'd signed up for.
Mimi

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:46am PT
So where are Barbara and the other passengers hanging out these days?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 05:39am PT
Some of you people are just crazy....
Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Aug 27, 2011 - 09:22am PT
Yea and what was all that underground work going on in the Valley, couldn't have been a sewer project, you don't believe that s**t do you?

WB don't you work for the Fed's? Tell us what you guys were really burying!
Dave Johnson

Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 10:10am PT
They are burying black helicopters, Charlie.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
Some of you people are just crazy....



Yea, we're crazy. Uh, huh. Sure whatever you say. (Eyes rolling.)


Not as bat poop crazy as our US government and the Joint chiefs of Staff in the Pentagon can be. From the official "Operation Northwoods" released documents . . . This is what they wanted to do back in 1962, "false-flag" false pretext operations against Cuba to provoke war. Do you really think they have stopped doing this kind of stuff? Hardly. They have gotten even more sophisticated, dark, and sinister since then. Just look at all the evil the Bush/Neocon Administration was able to do in just 8 years. Unbelievable.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods


6. Use of MIG type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type planes would be useful as complementary actions. An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were to announce such fact. The primary drawback to this suggestion appears to be the security risk inherent in obtaining or modifying an aircraft. However, reasonable copies of the MIG could be produced from US resources in about three months.[15]


7. Hijacking attempts against civil air and surface craft should appear to continue as harassing measures condoned by the government of Cuba. Concurrently, genuine defections of Cuban civil and military air and surface craft should be encouraged.

8. It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner en route from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.
a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.
b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will begin transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio[16] stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the US what has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to "sell" the incident.


9. It is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack.
a. Approximately 4 or 5 F-101 aircraft will be dispatched in trail from Homestead AFB, Florida, to the vicinity of Cuba. Their mission will be to reverse course and simulate fakir aircraft for an air defense exercise in southern Florida. These aircraft would conduct variations of these flights at frequent Intervals. Crews would be briefed to remain at least 12 miles off the Cuban coast; however, they would be required to carry live ammunition in the event that hostile actions were taken by the Cuban MIGs.
b. On one such flight, a pre-briefed pilot would fly tail-end Charley at considerable interval between aircraft. While near the Cuban Island this pilot would broadcast that he had been jumped by MIGs and was going down. No other calls would be made. The pilot would then fly directly west at extremely low altitude and land at a secure base, an Eglin auxiliary. The aircraft would be met by the proper people, quickly stored and given a new tail number. The pilot who had performed the mission under an alias, would resume his proper identity and return to his normal place of business. The pilot and aircraft would then have disappeared.
c. At precisely the same time that the aircraft was presumably shot down, a submarine or small surface craft would disburse F-101 parts, parachute, etc., at approximately 15 to 20 miles off the Cuban coast and depart. The pilots returning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft found.[17]



And you guys don't think it is possible that 9-11 was an inside job, even when we can prove the OCT is invalid. Man are you guys snowed.




In memory of JB. He liked to post this image . . .








To all you naysayers . . .



WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
This is from United Air Lines Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret.) who actually flew these planes during his career.

"The fakers say the B-757's and 767's were doing about 530 MPH (that's statute miles per hour).

Well, we don't use statute miles! We use KNOTS! So, this translates to about 460 Knots, which is exactly 110 knots ABOVE Vmo of 350 Kts at about 1000' above MSL (sea level)!

IN LEVEL FLIGHT NO LESS!!!! THIS IS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE!

The "Drag Rise" (shock waves) would rip the wings off the airplane well before reaching that speed! Above Vy, (best rate of climb speed) drag increases to the square of the velocity of the air speed!

Remember folks, these were AIRLINERS."
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
Klimmer

Anybody with any interest in these subjects knows about the despicable covert operations undertaken by all Imperial (Western generally) powers, not just American ones. This is as old as history man. You think people don't know about this stuff?

I'm as "pinko" as you can get, and loathe the likes of Bush & his chums as much as the next quasi-communist, but only an idiot thinks these absurd claims of a washington-based 9-11 conspiracy are serious. Get real, and grow up.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
Drink your Kool-Aid and repeat after me:


This is where a Boeing 757 crashed,
this is where a Boeing 757 crashed...





Somebody, please overlay the outline of a 757. Be sure to make room for the wings above the untouched spools, the intact columns, and show where the engines, wings, and tail hit the building. Should be easy.



Oh, and Jaytee, I already pointed out where you can find interviews of folks who saw things other than a Boeing 757 hit the building. But, if all you believe is what you see on network TV, that's your problem, not mine.


On the tenth anniversary of 9/11, American researchers will appear live at The Royal cinema in Toronto to present exclusive interviews with eyewitnesses to the act of mass murder which took place at the Pentagon that day.


Simply put, the plane did not fly where it absolutely had to be to match the government reports and cause the directional damage inside and outside of the building. The eyewitnesses’ accounts prove that it could not have, and indeed did not, strike the Pentagon. It was seen flying away by multiple witnesses immediately after the explosion.

To those who keep asking "What happened to the passengers?", I reply: Damn good question.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
I was across the Potomac from the Pentagon on 9/11. I'd just come out of a building, where I'd watched the attacks on the WTC on TV. I was looking in the direction of the Pentagon. The Pentagon itself was blocked by buildings in the foreground. A jet that looked the size and shape of a 757 came in at extremely high speed from the N/NE (roughly - following the Potomac), streaking downward.

It went out of sight for a second, blocked by the foreground, and then the sound and flames of the explosion leapt up from behind the buildings in the foreground. It was clear it had hit the Pentagon. It was an awful sight, knowing a plane full of people had just been deliberately steered into a building full of people.

There is no way it was a cruise missile.
jbaker deserves a response given his first person account of the events in DC on 9-11-2001. He’s either misguided, a liar or telling truth. My gut says he’s telling the truth whereas for a few, your position foists that he is mistaken about what he saw or he’s a liar. But by all means keep talking about how some “pilot” you read about on the internetz says a 757 can’t go 500 mph or a 50 year war game memo.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
The video is the video..

I find some of the facts a bit too difficult to accept:

Specifications

757-200 757-200F 757-300
Flight deck crew Two
Seating, typical 200 (two-class)
234 (one-class) N/A 243 (two-class)
289 (one-class)
Length 155 ft 3 in (47.32 m) 178 ft 8 in (54.47 m)
Wingspan 124 ft 10 in (38.05 m)
Tail height 44 ft 6 in (13.56 m)
Wing area 1,951.0 sq ft (181.25 m2)
Wing sweepback 25°
Wing aspect ratio 7.8
Wheelbase 60.0 ft (18.29 m) 73.3 ft (22.35 m)
Cabin width 11.6 ft (3.54 m)
Cabin length 118.4 ft (36.09 m) 141.8 ft (43.21 m)
Empty Weight 127,520 lb
(57,840 kg) 142,400 lb
(64,590 kg)
Maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) 255,000 lb
(115,680 kg) 272,500 lb
(123,600 kg)
Take-off run at MTOW 9,550 ft (2,910 m) 9,600 ft (2,900 m)
Cruise speed Mach 0.80 (530 mph, 458 knots, 850 km/h at cruise altitude of 35,000 ft or 10.66 km)1
Range, loaded 3,900 nmi (7,222 km)
−200WL: 4,100 mni (7,600 km) 3,150 nmi (5,834 km) 3,395 nmi (6,287 km)
Maximum fuel 11,489 US gal (43,490 L) 11,276 US gal (42,680 L) 11,466 US gal (43,400 L)
Service ceiling 42,000 ft (12,800 m)
Engines (2×) Rolls-Royce RB211, Pratt & Whitney PW2037, PW2040, or PW2043 turbofan engines
rated at 36,600 lbf (163 kN) to 43,500 lbf (193 kN) thrust each





Fit through a 12 foot hole in the wall????


Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
k-man

I don't believe everything I see on TV. I use my critical faculties to decide what I may find to be true or false. I tend to side with Noam Chomsky's views on the media generally, and hope I am pretty discerning.

You have provided no remotely credible eyewitness reports describing anything other than a massive jet airliner crashing into the Pentagon. You seem incredibly tenacious in holding onto these bizarre beliefs. It's just really... weird.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
I'm as "pinko" as you can get, and loathe the likes of Bush & his chums as much as the next quasi-communist, but only an idiot thinks these absurd claims of a washington-based 9-11 conspiracy are serious.

Actually, I believe that only a stupid worthless f*#k believes:

* The hijacked flights all flew long routes taking them far from their targets exposing them to certain interception given standard operating procedures.

* The towering infernos were said to burn with the heat of nuclear power plants, despite sooty black smoke and few visible flames.

* The building collapses were presented as inevitable, even though such behavior was unheard of in steel structures.

* An extensive paper trail of the hijackers was found within hours of the attack, even though the same people had supposedly eluded authorities for years.

* The same hijackers who pulled off aerobatic maneuvers with large jets were flight school flunkies who had never flown jets.

* The FBI claimed that the passport from one of Flight 11's hijackers was found blocks from the towers (when the only other parts found of the jetliner that penetrated the tower were a few pieces of landing gear).

* The FBI pinpointed who the assailants were, even though several "hijackers" turned up alive after the attack.

* The video of Osama bin Laden that has him taking credit for the attack doesn't even look like him.

* Passengers made cell phone calls from the planes while at high altitude.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
k-man

I give up - you posit ridiculous speculation as evidence, and simultaneously wilfully ignore the evidence on plain view in front of your nose. Yep, I give up... over to you & Klimmer. Hope you enjoy each other's company :)
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
ridiculous speculation


Please enumerate the speculation.


Facts != Specuation



And speaking of ignoring evidence ...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
Come on Jaytee, you're calling me an idiot and accusing me of posting "ridiculous speculation."

Those are strong words, and I expect you to back up your claims.


If you can't back up your claims against me, then

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:44pm PT
Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain.
Friedrich Schiller
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
Damn .....

I'm gonna have to build the experiment myself since these so called scientist don't even follow their own rules.

Hypothesis, theory, and then make experiment.

They only do the first two and then just run their mouths forever.

Where do I get one of the big ass planes to crash in my replica wall at 500 mph at a supposedly impossible maneuver by the pros themselves?

So called Arab did it who couldn't even fly a consumer plane so I should be able to pull this off no problem.

I'll pack the plane full of dummies, of course me being the first dummy.

Then ..... I'll jump out right before impact.

I'll need a technical adviser. This Weld-it dude guy might be the ticket.

Wish me luck ......

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:59pm PT
Wow.....

Some of you are very mentally disturbed.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
Crap Dingus ....

Now that's a big hairy ass plane.

I'm nominating you as part of the experiment.

Which part do you want to play ..... :-)

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
Yeah.

So explain to me again why they won't release the tapes of the crash.

You know, the ones the FBI confiscated minutes (not hours) after the incident.

I'm one that finds that particularly odd.
monolith

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
Ron, you give K-Man too much credit in response. Ask him to first back up his assertions. He can't.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
Mono, what assertions have I made? I've posted the anomalies that are present in the Official Story. To me, it's puzzling and I question why there are so many lies and fabrications in the tale.


BTW, you gonna superimpose an outline of a 757 on your Pentagon photo? That would be interesting to see.



Not to mention the "STANDARD" security policies of the PENTAGON...

Right. If any knucklehead can fly an airliner into the building, they better be thinking of how to make it more secure! In other words, I don't buy it because I believe that the existing & standard security policies would not have allowed for the building to be hit by the airliner. (Refer to the Minetta/Cheney conversation for more details.)
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
Good thing there's lots of video and millions of eyewitnesses of the WTC getting hit by knuckleheads who can't fly a plane, or there might be some sort of batshit crazy conspiracy theory about it being, like, a highly secretive controlled demolition carried out by dozens of individuals and unnoticed by any of the thousands of people working in the building!!!

Thank goodness for that video, SHWEW!!!



P.S. Right, the FBI, who was IN on the Pentagon "incident", made sure to confiscate the tapes minutes after (but somehow forget to sabotage all the video cameras just before?) Because it's much easier to let the tapes roll, and of course, nothing EVER leaks from our government.
Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
Anybody got an explanation as to why they would use a cruise missile instead of just using the plane that they had to make disappear anyway?

Why not just crash the plane into the pentagon like they did with the WTC towers?



Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 27, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
Lot's of practice under the guise of other but very similiar events . . .



And Condoleezza Rice saying "We never imagined planes being used as missiles . . ." blah-blah-blah.

I laugh. And then I cry.

Right Condi. Sure I believe you. (Dang lying Neocon.)


9/11: THREATS ABOUT AIRPLANES AS WEAPONS PRIOR TO 9/11
By: Dr. Matthew Robinson
Associate Professor of Criminal Justice
Appalachian State University
robinsnmb@appstate.edu
http://www.justiceblind.com/airplanes.html




They had lots of practice over and over again . . .

PENTAGON & CIA PRACTICED 9-11-2001
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC_practiced.htm
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 27, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
Anybody got an explanation as to why they would use a cruise missile instead of just using the plane that they had to make disappear anyway?

Why not just crash the plane into the pentagon like they did with the WTC towers?


Military precision and control.

They had to have the exact pretext for War, and they had to get rid of the evidence for losing 2.3 Trillion dollars announced by Rumsfeld on 9-10-2001 in a press conference.


Rumsfeld 2.3 Trillion Dollars missing Pentagon 1 DAY before 911 (Conspiracies)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpWqdPMjmo


The missile (or what ever it was) hit exactly where the computers and personnel were, that knew about and knew exactly where all the skeletons hiding in the closet were: the finance office, that had just received reinforced walls.

Dang the coincidences of all that happening exactly like it did. What are the odds??? (2.3 Trillion to 1)


Lol.



Are you gonna take control and make it happen exactly as you want or are you going to run the risk with Arab flight flunkies?

Pretty straight forward choice if you think that way and have gone to the dark side and you don't have a soul.
monolith

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
What assertions? Hilarious K-man.

How about that the FBI confiscated all security camera video within minutes of the attack. Really, within minutes? Even, like hotel security video, parking lot video? That would mean the FBI was in on the conspiracy.

Back it up K-Man. And not some stupid anonymous source.

I see Cleo already nailed you on that one.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Aug 27, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
Roger Murdock: Flight 2-0-9'er, you are cleared for take-off.
Captain Oveur: Roger!
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Tower voice: L.A. departure frequency, 123 point 9'er.
Captain Oveur: Roger!
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Victor Basta: Request vector, over.
Captain Oveur: What?
Tower voice: Flight 2-0-9'er cleared for vector 324.
Roger Murdock: We have clearance, Clarence.
Captain Oveur: Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?
Tower voice: Tower's radio clearance, over!
Captain Oveur: That's Clarence Oveur. Over.
Tower voice: Over.
Captain Oveur: Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Tower voice: Roger, over!
Roger Murdock: What?
Captain Oveur: Huh?
Victor Basta: Who?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 12:09am PT
A security camera atop a hotel close to the Pentagon may have captured dramatic footage of the hijacked Boeing 757 airliner as it slammed into the western wall of the Pentagon. Hotel employees sat watching the film in shock and horror several times before the FBI confiscated the video as part of its investigation.

It may be the only available video of the attack. The Pentagon has told broadcast news reporters that its security cameras did not capture the crash.

The attack occurred close to the Pentagon's heliport, an area that normally would be under 24-hour security surveillance, including video monitoring.


Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20021219062257/http://www.gertzfile.com/gertzfile/ring092101.html

Not only has the government refused to release footage that would clearly show how the Pentagon was attacked, it has also seized footage not belonging to the military. The FBI confiscated video recordings from several private businesses near the Pentagon in the immediate aftermath of the attack. Those recordings, if they still exist, might provide decisive evidence about the attack.

The FBI visited a hotel near the Pentagon to confiscate film from a security camera which some hotel employees had been watching in horror shortly after the attack. The FBI denied that the footage captured the attack. 1
The FBI visited the Citgo gas station southwest of the Pentagon within minutes of the attack to confiscate film that may have captured the attack. According to Jose Velasquez, who was working at the gas station at the time of the attack, the station's security cameras would have captured the attack. 2


At least two plaintiffs have attempted to obtain videos seized by the FBI, using the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). The first, documented at Flight77.info, began with a request to the FBI in October of 2004. The second, undertaken by the Judicial Watch, Inc. began with a request to the Department of Defense (DOD) in December of 2004. Following is a timeline of the requests and subsequent lawsuits. Entries relating to the second case are distinguished with dates colored gray.

October 14, 2004: Scott A. Hodes, on behalf of his client Scott Bingham, sends a request to David Hardy of the FBI requesting any videos "that may have captured the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001". The request letter mentions videotapes from the Citgo Gas Station and the Sheraton National Hotel.

...

The entire timeline is given in more detail here: http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/footage.html#lawsuits

So mono, these are not assertions, these are facts.

No need to apologize, I know it must already be hard being you.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 01:15am PT
Only one month of flight school I should be able to make this type of precision maneuver also.

If I have a box cutter razor blade in my hand it will definitely make it easier .....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 01:33am PT
Some thoughts:

Like most, I accepted the Official Story on how the 9-11 attacks happened. Then one day, several years after the 9-11 Commission Report came out, I was watching TV and saw a program about it all.

I came into the middle of the broadcast where they were talking about how it took over 2 years for Bush to OK a special commission to review what happened on that stomach-turning day. On top of that, when he finally did form a commission to review what had happened, he under funded it and put Henry Kissinger in charge.

The broadcast I watched compared the WH's response to the responses of other major events, such as the quick and fully funded response to find out what happened in the Challenger mishap.

I found this really strange, the biggest attack *ever* on American soil, and the president didn't willingly form a task force to look into it?

Then other things happened that didn't make much sense, such as when Bush and Cheney refused to be interviewed about the 9-11 events, unless they could pre-screen the questions, have no taping device in the room when questioned, not allow follow-up questions, and give a very limited time for the interview. Also strange is that they demanded that both of them needed to be together when questioned.

Wow, really?

Yes, really.

When I heard this, I asked myself "Why would key officials act in such a suspicious manner?" What is it they are trying to hide??

This only made me more curious about the 9-11 story, and in looking into it I found many things that didn't add up into a nice neat package like the Official Story wanted me to believe.

When you watch a Hollywood action flick, you have to employ what is known as the "suspension of disbelief" if you want to enjoy the plot of the movie. The Official Story is much like this--you have to suspend your disbelief if you are to believe the story. The 9-11 gig is a bit different though, because so many of the things in the Official Story contradict themselves and are flat out falsehoods, that to swallow it, you have to really not care.

The Official Story has so many areas where key information is withheld and the facts so twisted, that a critical-thinking person must begin to wonder. And in wondering, a thinking person questions why would they twist any of facts at all? Why claim that folks made cell phone calls from the airplanes? Why would they make up this lie?

So you can make fun of me, and all the other hundreds of thousands of people who don't believe the Official Story, but it won't make me suspend my disbelief as is required of me to believe the tall tale that's been told to us.

If you believe the tale, that's your choice. But to me, you aren't using your ability to reason when they tell you they found Atta's undamaged passport in the street minutes after he flew a plane into the World Trade Center in an action so violent that it vaporized the plane in an explosion, and produced a fire so hot that it melted the structural steel in the building.

Sure, I might be able to suspend my disbelief for one such event, but there are simply too many unbelievable things contained in the Official Story for me to believe that they could have all taken place. It's simply more unbelievable than any Hollywood action movie. And, if the Official Story contains even one single lie, we should all be asking ourselves this: "Why would they lie?"
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 28, 2011 - 01:47am PT
I would pay 50 bucks towards an experiment to see what size hole one of those planes would make in such a building.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people would. No matter which side of the story they believe.

+2 for what K man wrote.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 28, 2011 - 02:05am PT
Nicely stated K-man.

2 thumbs up.




For me it was what happened at the Pentagon that got me to open my eyes. It was basically a challenge from a student to look into it.

I did. And the OCT fell apart from there when I honestly looked at all the evidence.

And if they lied there, then everything else is a lie also . . . and sure enough it is.

Micheal Ruppert's Crossing the Rubicon took care of the means, motive, and opportunity.

It was a bitter hard pill to swallow.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 28, 2011 - 02:07am PT
Why couldn't a fighter jet travel 250 miles in over an hour to intercept the fourth, obviously errant flight, as had been supposedly ordered by Cheney?

They were using advanced stealth box cutter technology. They couldn't find the plane.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 28, 2011 - 02:18am PT
I still want to see Werner's experiment.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 28, 2011 - 04:10am PT
Even had a conversation with a lady whose brother was an AA pilot and she told me it is generally well known in Airline circles that the plane was shot down.

It is not "well known" and the idea the shooting down a commercial airliner anywhere east of the Mississippi is going to go unnoticed or be covered up is utterly ludicrous.

This is from United Air Lines Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret.) who actually flew these planes during his career.

Well, my father is a retired UAL captain and both brothers are Fedex captains and all three think it was entirely possible for the hijackers to have accomplished the feat.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 28, 2011 - 09:36am PT
Tami-

You're crediting k-man with open-mindedness? Nobody is more closed-minded than people like him, that have a fixed belief and refuse to look at evidence that contradicts their prejudices. They swerve, obfuscate and squirm to avoid being confronted with such evidence.

Did you notice how the subject swerved away from the Pentagon into the wild realms of generalised 9-11 conspiracy? How he pretended to himself that he'd posted the evidence I politely asked him for?

Open-minded? Pull the other one. If this person was genuinely open-minded, and a serious student, he could personally interview the witnesses themselves. One of them posted on this site you may have noticed. (However, I certainly wouldn't expect many such people directly personally affected by these events to greet the likes of him with a cheery smile).





TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:21am PT
Well, we don't use statute miles! We use KNOTS! So, this translates to about 460 Knots, which is exactly 110 knots ABOVE Vmo of 350 Kts at about 1000' above MSL (sea level)!

It's obvious that there was an even deeper level to the plot. The explosive bolts that Boeing included in the design that make the wings fall off at 351 Kts must have been disconnected by the FAA.

They were in on it too.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:38am PT
Werner's experiment was already done.

It was done 2X using the WTC towers.

Both jets left an exact outline/profile through the building materials. Through massive steel beams on the outside of both WTC towers, like massive cookie cutters punched them out.

Sure, it wasn't the same exact building materials but good enough.

We see no outline profile of anykind at the Pentagon. Where the wings would have completely impacted the Pentagon from tip to tip, no equivalent or consistant damage to the Pentagon. Where the very tall vertical stabalizer would have impacted the Pentagon, we have intact windows from the top of the second floor to the bottom of the windows on the 4th floor. Zip. Nada. Nothing. No consistant damage. Where the 2 massive engines would have impacted the Pentagon, again no consistant or equivalent damage. The main fuselage could barely have squeezed through the 16'hole. No massive wreckage of anykind. All that supposed wreckage from a 757 just completely vaporized, vanished. 2 massive engines made with very high temperature resistant alloys nowhere to be found. Not buying it. And those that do aviation accident investigations are not buying it either.

People who survived "the bomb" from within the Pentagon who worked there, like April Gallop (who by the way is sueing the US government and who also has beed harassed and threatened) and came out through the 16 hole have said they saw nothing inside to indicate that a massive jet just came through. Nothing. Many people on the first response team and the clean-up have said the same thing.

What we do see is completely consistant with something much smaller like a missile. Many witnesses have testified to smelling the explosive, smelling the Cordite.


What Really happened on 9/11? Come and hear 9/11 eyewitness/mother from Pentagon
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3965407869390415574#

"April Gallop was at the Pentagon with her 2 months old baby, when the 9/11 explosion at the pentagon blew her off her feet. April walked out of the crater hole in the Pentagon injured, but alive. Come and hear April's first hand testimony of what She saw on 9/11. The testimony that the 9/11 commission and the major/dominant news media have shamelessly kept from you and the American People!"
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 11:02am PT
Well, my father is a retired UAL captain and both brothers are Fedex captains and all three think it was entirely possible for the hijackers to have accomplished the feat.


Hypothesis, theory, then experiment.

The guy couldn't even pilot a little consumer plane.

The modern scientists in this thread here just do hypothesis, theory, and no experiment, then run their mouths .......
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 11:07am PT
No

YOU ......
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 11:34am PT
I'm not doing any speculations.

It's all you guys doing the speculations and trying so damn hard to weld those speculations onto the researchers.

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 28, 2011 - 11:34am PT
whatever you believe about these things, here's the scenario suggested by the CIT:

yes, there was a 757 and it apparently crashed into the pentagon, but at the last moment it pulled up and over the building and went on to land at the nearby d.c. airport. there is a reluctant witness who reports seeing it fly over on the other side of the pentagon.

the CIT investigators are suggesting a devious jetliner flight coordinated with a missile and pre-planted explosives within the pentagon. the damage to the pentagon was to a newly remodeled, and largely unpeopled, area on the side opposite the secretary of defense's office.

the main contribution by the CIT has been to nail down eyewitnesses from the citgo station, including two off-duty washington, d.c., police officers, who told them quite positively that the plane passed overhead on the left side of the station (facing the pentagon), not the right side. why is that important? the downed light poles, some of which fell the wrong way (away from the pentagon), indicate a flight path which would have had to have been on the right side of the station. the implication is that charges were planted on the light poles to simulate being knocked down.

if you haven't read norman mineta's testimony to the 9/11 commission, check it out. you won't find it in the commission report, by the way, but it was given under oath and has been published widely. mineta, then secretary of transportation, was in the control bunker with cheney. a young aide kept coming in to apprise the vice-president of the hijacked plane approaching washington--it's 20 minutes out, 15 minutes, 10 minutes ... do the orders still stand? cheney, mineta said, whipped his head around and said, "of course the orders still stand!"

so tell us, all you believers-of-the-government out there, how YOU explain that? by what scenario would the vice-president of the united states be sitting on his butt allowing a hijacked airplane to approach closer and closer to the nation's capital, apprised of its progress every few minutes, and finally allowing it to crash into the pentagon? by what scenario would the fighter planes at andrews air force base, seconds away from the heart of washington, be sitting on the ground with 40 minutes of lead time instead of being out there buzzing the crap out of that 757 as it approached--20 minutes out, 15 minutes, 10 minutes ... ?

does anyone here believe it was out of concern for the poor victims of the hijacking, that the government would have sat there and allowed such an approach into protected airspace on the slim chance that they could persuade the supposed hijackers to give up and save the hundred-odd people in the airliner?

i'm sure that's what it was. no wonder they didn't scramble any fighters from andrews--that would only have enforced the hijackers' resolve. i'm sure they had a muslim holy man, trained in crisis management, attempting to dissuade the hijackers up until the very last second.

i shouldn't be suggesting this. it'll be in a news release next week.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 11:38am PT
To truly critically think this issue you have to look at it from the other side- if what you are saying is true then flight schools, airport video, 1000s of witnesses, hijacker families, long historical trails, not to mention the complicity of every single person in government since then( Obama) and 10, 000's of other silent people.


Every time people bring up all the anomalies with the 9-11 story, this is the "proof" that people offer to show that it must have gone down the way the Official Story tells it.
You can can on it like clockwork.



Jaytee, you're an ass, we've already "proved" that. And I'm not going to rudely talk about you in the 3rd person in front of you. I'm going to point a finger right at your face and call you the names that you deserve, in the 1st person.

Nobody is more closed-minded than people like him, that have a fixed belief and refuse to look at evidence that contradicts their prejudices.

Remember asswipe, I was the one who posted the quote that supported your belief, and even underlined the exact sentence that gave your view credence. Then, pig-squealer, you had the audacity to tell me to read the sentence a "few times. Then again," as if I couldn't read or understand what it was I posted. What a jerk.

I told you flat out where you could go to see interviews of folks who said they saw something other than a 757. I'm not going to hold your hand and make you watch an hour-long video, when it is painfully obvious that YOU are the one who refuses to look at evidence that contradicts your prejudice. I'd call you a hypocrite, but that would give people like Bush a bad name.

Go ahead, tell me that "it couldn't possibly happen because Washington could never keep the secret." I, along with hundreds of thousands of people, including high-ranking officials in other governments, have called for a real investigation into what happened that day, and not the circus filled with stoolies that was the bumbling 9-11 Commission.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 11:46am PT
k-man

People like Jaytee are just a waste of time.

Don't bother with him and just let him rant.

Don't let your emotions control you over this stuff ....
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 28, 2011 - 11:55am PT
http://www.theonion.com/articles/openminded-man-grimly-realizes-how-much-life-hes-w,19273/


I think this article helps to clarify many points.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 28, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
April Gallop, Military Officer, Pentagon 911 Victim, Sued Cheney, Was In Court Today~News BLACKOUT
admin | Apr 06, 2011 | 2 comments
http://www.welcomethelight.com/2011/04/april-gallop-military-officer-pentagon-911-victim-sued-cheney-was-in-court-todaynews-blackout/


Here is our scary justice system at work for you. Cover-up, avoid, and when possible assign a judge to the case who is the cousin of GWB. Can't get any more blatantly corrupt than that.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
Thanks Werner, true stuff you speak.


We were talking the other day about how your mind becomes wired to react in certain ways to specific stimuli. For example, when somebody walks into a room that you love or hate, your mind goes down a pre-configured path that dictates how you feel. This is not pseudo science, this is a real physiological thing that happens. People must take an active roll in breaking the patterns that their minds have set up for them.

I find that when I talk to Right-wingers and other folks with closed minds, that my mind goes through these triggers. And it is a waste of good time and good energy that I should be otherwise fostering.

I posted "Some thoughts" in an attempt to graciously bow out of this debate and explain why I feel the way I do.

In Other News, it is a beautiful Sunday. I wish I were climbing, but instead will make the most of the precious hours of daylight ahead.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
No Ron

You're just plain wasting your time on your own.

Quit trying to blame others for your own faults .....
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 28, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
I still want to see an experiment where they fly a plane into a replica of the pentagon.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
Ron, I didn't say that talking to Right-wingers or folks with closed minds was a waste of time. Instead, I realized that it's a waste of good energy when my mind goes to these preconfigured thought patterns when it gets triggered in certain ways.

Big difference.


And Werner is right. Don't blame me for how you spend your time.
Have a nice one, ...
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 28, 2011 - 01:59pm PT
We were talking the other day about how your mind becomes wired to react in certain ways to specific stimuli. For example, when somebody walks into a room that you love or hate, your mind goes down a pre-configured path that dictates how you feel. This is not pseudo science, this is a real physiological thing that happens. People must take an active roll in breaking the patterns that their minds have set up for them.

I like this, Kelly. I could only add that those patterns exist for the most part in our subconscious and few have learned how to access that Quagmire to take such an active roll. I think it scares the crap out of most people.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
I could only add that those patterns exist for the most part in our subconscious

Interesting Wayno. I was told that there's actual physical patterns that form. Either way, it is a new science, but intriguing.




ION, looks like Jaytee took down the post that offended me so. I guess I struck a chord with him...
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 28, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
Kelly, I'm not sure how it all works, but from a purely practical point of view, some methods have developed over the years to gain access to the Quagmire to make change for the better or worse. Hypnosis is one example, but there are many others and new ones still emerging. There is hope.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
Kman- so what is your exact version of what occurred on 911.

Riley, what makes you think I have an exact version of what occurred on 9/11?


All I know is that I don't believe the Official Story, it glosses over too many FACTS that would be inconsistent with the story.


I am still waiting for somebody to super-impose the outline of a 757 on the over-sized image that monolith posted.

But then again, I think I know the reason none of you are willing to look at that--it would probably end up with you waving your arms and saying "Does Not Compute!"


"But k-man!! we have so many facts that the Gov't supplied us, that show the plane crashed there and that other planes took down the Trade Center towers. Look, a black box! Look, DNA. Look, cell-phone calls made from the airplanes [oops, ignore that...], look, molten steel burning at the World Trade Center weeks after the fires went out [oops, ignore that], look, Mineta's testimony under oath [hey, not in the 9-11 commission report, they ignored it, why don't you]."

Sheesh, SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF, you're getting good at it.

Only we're not in a Hollywood movie folks.



Oh damn you Riley, you got me going again...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
"May I speak your Honor?"

"Yes, go ahead please."

"You see, Sir, everybody inside and outside this courtroom knows that nobody in Washington is able to keep a secret. That, Sir, is the reason why we never tested the World Trade Center building debris for thermite, Sir.

...

Oh what was that you said, Sir, about the Gulf of Tonken??"


Riley, what I am saying is that there should be a full, transparent, in-depth inquiry into the events, the lead-up to, and the aftermath, of what happened on 9-11. The 9-11 Commission is a joke. They glossed over many facts, witness testimonies, physical evidence, and more. The commission was loaded with stoolies from the administration that prevented the real goings on from being disclosed and brought to light.

In short, I believe that there are still unidentified criminals at larger who either participated in or covered up the happenings of that day.


There, I answered your question. Now please answer one for me:

If the final 9-11 Commission Report contains one or more lies or untruths, would it sully for you the final conclusions made in the report?

Bonus question:

If the 9-11 Commission Report does contain lies or untruths, can you explain to me why that is OK?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
Riley, I hate (love?) to tell you. That Popular Science article was torn to shreds by folks who did the math.

Then, PS tried to refute the findings, but it fell totally flat.

True.



But don't take my word for it, please do some of your own research.




EDIT:

Obviously folks do agree on how they fell because that is what many engineers figured out in the first few days...


Riley, these must be the guys you're talking about:

Engineers and Architects for 9/11 Truth
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 28, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
You can find out how these groups are tied to other large globalist, and the media. It goes on and on, and it isn't just as simple as give me the facts. You need to dig for peieces of the puzzle, and take it back as far as you want. It will begin to explain a whole lot more than 9/11. That is the truth.


That's a whole new thread right there, but I hear ya, dude!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 06:27pm PT
The Bush admin is why the 9-11 Commission Report contains lies?
Is that what you're saying?
Seriously??


I beg you to think about your answer.




Riley, 15 minutes. Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw&feature=player_embedded#!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
"It wasn't a b52 that crashed into the World Trade Centres- it was a 757 full of jet fuel.
There is a huge difference.
How many thousands of pounds of jet fuel?"


No plane crashed into WTC Building 7, that's what the video that you watched twice addresses.

Did you catch the part where the official NIST story for the collapse of WTC Building 7 was "fires fueled by office furnature"? (minute 3:45)

Or, did you catch the part where the entire building was in free-fall for the first 100 feet?

Impressive office fires, yes? Or, lies?? Which is more likely?

Do you know how fast the jet fuel in the WTC towers burned out, and that jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel? You know, like the molten steel that was buried under the centers for WEEKS.

For me, this doesn't float.

It's OK if you want to ignore the anomalies, most people don't want to think about it.

Oh, and the 9-11 Commission was supposed to be independent of the WH administration, that's why I asked you to think more carefully about your response to my Yes/No question.


Kool-Aid bro. It's cheap and plentiful.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
ha, ok. No more Kool-Aid.

On jet fuel burning temperature (my emphasis):

"No scientist, engineer, or investigator has ever claimed that the steel support beams of the WTC melted from the fire. The heat of the fire did soften the steel that was exposed by the crash, making it more bendy and unable to support the full weight of the floors above. This happens long before the steel turns to liquid. This whole steel-melting argument is a strawman that the conspiracy theorists bring up every time in order to support their fantasies"

This from here: http://community.yourdiscovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/95010646/m/216104783

On jet fuel burning temps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel

On steel: Steel melts at around 1370 degrees C

Jet fuel is only hot enough to soften the metal.



Now that is odd, because there are photos (and eye witnesses) of melted steel. How did it get so hot to melt??

If you watch the entire video I posted, you will see samples of melted steel from WTC B7, which was caused by "office furniture fire."

OK, once again I'm gonna try and leave this one lay as it is.

Cheers...


EDIT:

Sorry, one last thing:

Your the guy trying to prove a wild conspiracy....not me..

I am not trying to prove anything other than to show why the Official Story does not hold water for me. I am asking for a real investigation, not a dummied-up one.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 28, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
Dingus, " John Salathe was a rap bolter". That's disturbing news. Who would ever have thought?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
Flight 175 went straight into the 81st floor of the South Tower, the NIST report provides no description of what was on the 81st floor. Not even one word. How odd.

Then, out of the blue, a former bank employee came forward, a person who had visited the 81st floor on a weekly basis.

His information explains more than he probably thought and provides us with a major clue about what really happened on 9-11.

Fuji Bank had torn up the 81st floor, he said, and stripped it down to reinforce the trusses so that the floor could hold more weight.

Then they had built a raised floor and filled the entire floor with server-size Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS) batteries.

These units were bolted to the raised floor which stood about 3 feet above the reinforced 81st floor.

Beneath the raised floor ran the cables and power supply that connected the army of batteries.

IT techies had to get down on all fours and crawl around beneath the raised floor to connect cables.

"The whole floor was batteries," he said, "huge battery-looking things." They were "all black" and "solid, very heavy" things that had been brought in during the night.

They had been put in place during the summer prior to 9-11, he said. But were they really batteries? "It's weird," he said. "They were never turned on." So, what really was on the 81st floor of WTC 2? What was in these heavy "battery-looking things?" Were they batteries, or were they Thermite?

The whole floor was full of batteries that were never turned on. Where they heavy packets of Thermite made to look like batteries?

Only senior Information Technology (IT) personnel from Fuji Bank, or the Japanese banks affiliated with it, had access to the 81st floor computer room, according to the source.

"Nobody worked on that floor," the source said about Floor 81.

The whole floor was taken up with a "whole bunch of batteries" and "enclosed server racks" that were so tall that one could not see over the top of them. The enclosed server racks were locked and the only people who could open them were employees of the Shimizu Corp., he said.

Didn't the host of NIST scientists think that was worthy of mention? They either did not know that the 81st floor was full of "battery-looking things" or decided not to mention it. How odd.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
Hey Mr. Riley,
I feel bad about my somewhat smug reply to your post about my question, whre I said:

Seriously??


I beg you to think about your answer.


I wish I had been more courteous and straightforward in my reply instead letting my flip side take over. After all, I consider you a stand-up guy and, if we lived in the same neighborhood, I'd hope we'd be good friends.

This 9-11 topic makes my blood pressure boil. I see so many obvious distortions of the truth, and the actions taken in the aftermath of the attacks have had horrendous effects. So I'd like to show show a better side and say thanks for holding up a decent conversation.



FYI, the link you provide to the Popular Mechanics rebuttal article leads to a piece that is more of a whack op/ed than it is a rebuttal to the assertions made in the PM article. However, that opinion piece does link to this better-researched rebuttal to the PM article:

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/#planes

There are a couple of worthwhile 9-11 Truther sites (they give weight to evidence on all sides of the argument), and I think this is one of them.
Cheers...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 28, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
Werner,

I worked with the Sika Brothers. Their company, Sika Electric was bought out by ABM (American Building Maintenance) about 18 months before 9-11. I ran National accounts for the division that bought them (Amtec Lighting) till about August of that year and spoke to them weekly at least.

150- to 200 union electricians worked for him in those buildings. One of the brothers spent most of his time there. They had several shops set up at different levels of all three buildings. If someone was building a server room there, they would have had to employ them due to the exclusive contract they had. The ABM building engineers would have had to approve ANY modifications to the building, especially if heavy floor loading was involved. There were also several hundred ABM janitorial staff employed there. They knew who was in and out of the building at odd hours right down to who was having an affair with whom.

All the electricians made it out, but they lost several building engineers and a couple of dozen janitors.

More fairy tales from the conspiracy loons!



What you are describing sounds exactly like every telephone switch or CO-LO facility I've ever been in. There's a whole row of buildings down in the skid row area of LA that look just like old office buildings. They are specially structurally reinforced and empty of employees, just servers, AC units, UPS units and lots of batteries.
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 09:17am PT
^^ROFLMAO^^
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 29, 2011 - 09:32am PT
To add to what TGT said, that sounds exactly like what I would expect a large bank's data center to look like. Batteries for a large UPS system are lots and lots of big black things. And servers are normally in tall racks in cages. and generally few people are let into those rooms. Everything described would be normal for a data center.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:11am PT
it's not like there's just a couple little things, coz. there's a whole avalanche of things. want a smoking gun? there are about 45 of them, said david ray griffin seven years ago, and we're still counting.

it's been awhile since our last go-around on this, when poor klimmer and rokjox fought the lonely fight. now it seems that more people are listening. i find it interesting that john bachar, whom i had never met, was fighting this fight as well.

david ray griffin--to quote largo, "sharp dude, but then he went south with all that 9/11 conspiracy jibberish".

careful about your compass. north isn't always the right direction.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:42am PT
Maybe the plane ran into Santa's sleigh.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:43am PT
"The board believes the perception of an elephant in our living room is spurious and based on questionable research."
dirtbag

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:46am PT
Wow...this horseshit again?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:22am PT
WTC Building 7 was completely left out of the 9/11 Commission Report. There was such an uproar that the Officials had to respond in some way. First FEMA has a shot, and when their report fell flat, they gave the job to NIST.

The NIST report remains the Official Account of what happened to WTC Bld 7.

Their conclusion: The building was brought down by office furniture fire.

That's it, case closed.

The US Gov't claims that small office furniture fires brought down a 47-story modern steel structure.

People like monolith, mimi, TGT, DMT, Riley, Ron Anderson, Jaytee, Dirtbag, and thousands of others buy this story.


So grim is the result of people willing to buy whatever the Gov't tells them that we now have Homeland Security, the absolute loss of rights (remember when we said "Guilty until proven innocent"?), and a war machine that is eating us out of house and home. Terrorists, the enemy, are *everywhere* and unstoppable because they are not tied to any nation state. Fear people, FEAR!



Look at WTC Bld 7 folks. For the first 100' of the collapse, the entire building was in free fall. What does this mean?

This means that the entire building experienced Zero Resistance to gravity, simultaneously throughout the building.

Think about that for a couple of seconds. The entire building experienced total collapse at the same rate as a bowling ball dropped from the top.

Office furniture fire, people. Can you believe it?


And you folks think it's fun to call us in search of the truth "loons."

Whoa boy.
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:31am PT
Interesting, no 9/11 first responders, nor family, will be allowed to attend the 10 year anniversary of 9/11.

You are not the sharpest knife in the drawer are ya NWO?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:39am PT
Ron, your site is not what the US Gov't claims.

So, you are not believing what the Gov't says, but what some independent folks put together, right?


Why do you think the US Gov't didn't put forth causes portrayed in your link?


Read the NIST report and you will have your answer. (Hint: because that theory has been shown to be hogwash.)


EDIT: Who is Wikipedia, Riley?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:49am PT
fact is that all of this conspiracy stuff has gone absolutly no where- other than internet blogs some of which are simply retarded. Had there been ANY proof positive, it would have been in court.



The fact is, there are scores of books, lectures, videos, even officials from other states who want to see an independent investigation.

To say that this the 9/11 Truth movement is only on internet blogs shows just how unaware you are.

There have been suits, many of them. And yes, they go nowhere, as expected. Because in reality, you cannot sue the Gov't, they are too powerful and they're the ones who provide the courts.

Oh yes, I must be crazy to think that our US courts deal out anything but absolutely pure justice. Just like in the Valery Plame case, the Goldman Sachs toxic asset scandal, on and on.


The US Gov't contends small office fires brought down WTC Bld 7. Who are you going to believe, them or the blogs you point me to?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:51am PT
blng 7 was by all accounts from the scene,

This is a bald-faced lie.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
I find this pretty interesting.

The US Gov't provides a report detailing why WTC Bld 7 collapsed.

But, in your gut, you know that office furniture fires could not really be the cause of such a spectacular collapse.

So you turn to the internet and find blogs that support your point of view.


Whaaa, I want to believe my internet blog, and not yours.



In the end, what you are saying is that you don't believe what the US Gov't spoon fed you, so you are smart enough to look elsewhere for answers. And Look! You found the answer that you wanted to see.

Oh, you so smart!


You figured out a way to not believe the Gov't, yet have everything still be nice and neat.


But there is a small problem. You are still calling the Gov't liars.

Funny that, no?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
"Oh, but the Gov't is to big and cumbersome to figure out the real answer to Buld 7, so they made up some BS. What we need is some independent thinkers to really solve this difficult problem that the Gov't can't seem to handle.

There, all better now. There's a blog that did it for us.

The Gov't would never willfully and knowingly lie to us."




For the first 100' of the collapse, the entire building was in free fall.

Simultaneously throughout the building, there was ZERO resistance.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Aug 29, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
Just saw the full Bush 9/11 interview on Nat Geo last night.

He was totally believable in his recounting of shock, dismay, confusion, anger, looking for answers.

Waaaaay more convincing than much of the stuff he said when in office.

There is just no way that the whole classroom deer in the headlights look, high speed limo, flight to Barksdale AFB, then Offut AFB, taping of a statement, flight to DC, being run through the White House to a bunker when a stray f-16 flew over the capitol in the middle of the night was all a perfect set-up. No way.

He didn't know sh#t.

But there is no convincing those who want there to be a conspiracy.
Forest

Trad climber
Denver, CO
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
My wife has a friend who was in the pentagon parking lot on 9/11 who saw the plane (with wings!) hit the building.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
Jolly (and others) - I work with, socialize with, climb with, and study alongside with Shock Physics (Blast), Fire, and Structural Engineers, some of whom where directly involved with the 9-11 reports, including testing, and of which these results are online and available for YOU to look at.

The conspiracy theories are 100% garbage. Seriously. There is no need to find the "truth" - all this stuff is available. Just like there is no need to investigate whether aliens killed JFK, Godzilla is causing global warming, or missiles were actually invented in the Middle Ages.

I will not waste my time responding to you - the information is widely, widely available. Please get a new hobby, maybe you could do some good for the world with all that energy.

And gee, interesting that I know several victims and family and friends of victims, and hmmm, not a single one wants the government to "reinvestigate". Seriously... one of my cousins literally attended dozens of funerals.
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
Riley, that "baby on the pavement" (really tacky by the way) in this case just happens to be the working colleagues, for many decades of many of those first responders. I think they would be considered welcome guests of the families on that front row bench.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
Jesse Ventura's TV Show Conspiracy Theory by all accounts was an excellent show. I would like to see it return with new episodes. It is the conscience that our country needs in these dire times.

He did a great job with The Pentagon on 9-11-2001. He is a very brave American hero for doing what he is doing. Do not question his patriotism. He's a Patriot True and Blue: Navy SEAL UDT, and the former Governor of Minnesota. He wants to know the truth. And I think ultimately everyone does. Asking the hard questions and dissent is patriotic. It makes our country better. It brings true criminals to justice. It rights wrongs. The World wants us to take care of our own house first.


Conspiracy Theory with Gov. Jesse Ventura- 911 Pentagon Attack (Full Episode)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrZ14NRbT-s&feature=player_embedded



Because many have adult ADD especially those who love high risk adventure sports such as climbing I'm giving an outline to go with it to help you:

We now know . . .

1. NORAD stand down from the highest levels at The White House, heard on official government transmissions.

2. It was first reported that a missile hit the Pentagon heard on official government transmissions.

3. Norman Mineta's thorough eyewitness testimony of being in The White House Bunker with VP Dick Cheney reconfirming the stand-down order with a USAF personnel.

4. Missile hit the Pentagon.

5. All security camera tapes that recorded whatever hit the Pentagon where confiscated within a short amount of time of the event occurring.

6. The Arab terrorists/patsies didn't have the flight experience. HH couldn't even rent a Cessna. The instructor wouldn't allow it. He had paltry skills and knowledge.

7. Flights simulations within a 757 even with experienced commercial pilots that have 757 experience show the flight of AA flight 77 couldn't be done. At the speeds reported by the Black Box and within the 9-11 Commission Report, the wings would have been ripped off.

8. Donald Rumsfeld on 9-10-2001 announces in a press conference that 2.3 Trillion dollars can not be accounted for in The Pentagon expenditures. Amazingly, the Pentagon finance office tracking all of this is hit dead center on 9-11-2001.

9. Faked phone calls from flight 77. FBI has already admitted in a court of law that Barbara Olsen never made contact with Ted Olsen.

10. Again over 120 knots over the max speed of the operating limits of the 757 would have ripped the wings off of AA Flight 77.

11. Only Pentagon personnel bodies were found at the Pentagon on 9-11-2001. Bodies of passengers of AA Flight 77 were identified at Dover, about 140 miles away.

12. April Gallop, military personnel, Pentagon eye-witness walks out the hole in the Pentagon with her baby. she didn't see anything that indicated a massive jet crash had occurred anywhere at the Pentagon. She is visited at the hospital by military personnel and basically told what she saw and what to say. She is suing the US government and key personnel. She has been harassed and threatened.

13. No real debris at the Pentagon crash-site or "Pentalawn" as can be seen in the earliest video now available. This video is not shown in the MSM.

14. The original hole in the Pentagon is too small for a 757, and the damage is completely inconsistent of a aviation crash-site of a massive jet of that size. However, the damage is consistent with something smaller such as a missile.

15. Again, the phone calls from flight 77 could have easily been faked. They did not occur as reported. The technology is easily available even in 2001.

16. Means, motive, and opportunity . . .

17. AA Flight 77 disappeared from RADAR for 28 minutes.

18. No phone calls from Barbara Olsen to Ted Olsen occurred. 0 minute contact time.

19. The FBI has admitted in court that there where no phone calls from AA Flight 77 that made contact. 0 minutes.

20. It is easy to be duped by fake phone calls. The technology exists and existed in 2001. Morphing a voice to match anyone else's voice is now very easy to do. It's demonstrated just how easy it is to do.

21. The Pentagon hit was an inside job and perfect pretext for War, and a great way to hide and render undiscoverable the missing 2.3 Trillion dollars lost by The Pentagon. What are the odds that the jet would exactly hit dead-center the Pentagon Finance office tracking all the monies? And no-one would talk about on MSM Rumsfeld's 9-10-2001 press conference ever again.

22. Why can't we see all the confiscated and unreleased security camera footage from 9-11-2001?

23. The 9-11 Commission was duped.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
This is from the guy that believes there's a big space-boat on the other side of the moon.....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
Can you guys ever get out of your ad hominem attack rut?

Really.

Stick to 9-11 and the facts known.



Watch the show for yourselves. I've held your hand long enough.


He goes to the source, the eye-witnesses brave enough to tell the truth.
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
When I want the facts, I always check with Jesse Ventura!!!

Between Jesse, Glen Beck, and Bill O'Reilly, you've pretty much got the "facts" covered........aaarrrrggghhhh!!!!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
All AA flight 77 passengers are vaporized, yet the Pentagon personnel bodies are all found and accounted for. How come?

"Yes, we found the DNA of the passengers of AA Flight 77 at the Pentagon, please believe us."


"And also please beleive us when we say that Barbara Olsen called her husband Ted Olsen from AA Flight 77 and that she told him the terrorists over came the aircraft with box-cutter knives."


Well, one of those is an outright lie, verified in a US Court of Law by the FBI. Yet, you want me to think everything else about 9-11-2001 and The Pentagon as reported is true?


I laugh.


Edit:

And then I cry for my country.
Gene

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
I laugh.


So are many others.......
Gene

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
If the 9/11 Omniscient Insider Perps (OIPs) have the ability to plan, carry out and cover their tracks so thoroughly, they obviously have the skills to control and manipulate information and communication. So why are they allowing the skeptics to post doubts in public? The only answer I can come up with is that the OIPs want the skeptics to disseminate certain preapproved ‘facts.’ It’s brilliant! A false flag wrapped up in a false flag. It keeps us sheeple away from the real truth. This onion has many skins and the OIPs are leading the skeptics onto the wrong path without anyone outside of the conspiracy knowing it. The skeptics are doing the OIPs’ work for them.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
The NIST report on WTC Bld 7 is totally flawed, so says Ron Anderson because he links us to a blog that describes a totally incongruous reason for the building's collapse.

His reason that NIST got it wrong:

imo the MEDIA was as much to blame for any confusion.


Perfect man, just perfect.



Hey, who cares if the 9-11 Commission Report has lies and untruths. We know what happened. We don't need any Gov't reports telling us what occurred, it is So Obvious.


Obvious as a 47-story building in complete free fall.
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
WTC7 took 14+ seconds to collapse. Hardly free fall(about 7 seconds). Truther's like to ignore the east penthouse collapsing into the building, before the facade gave way.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
WTC7 took 14+ seconds to collapse.

Source?

I've seen lots of video that include the start of the penthouse collapse.

And I think this claim is another lie.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:15pm PT
But really, who gives a snot about bldng 7?


In other words: k-man, you got me on that argument of yours, so here you can see me running away.
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:15pm PT
Here ya go K-Man, like it would have any impact on you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G86yuunRBIw
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
Wow, take a good look at the film boys.

They show the penthouse collapse at 55 seconds, and then again at 105 seconds. But, in both of these cuts, they immediate stop the footage, not letting you see what happens just after the penthouse collapse.

Why is that important?

Well, because it's a good trick that doesn't let you see the real time of the collapse from these very good camera angles. Instead, they use a real fuzzy view for their countdown sequence.

So OK, let's look at the fuzzy footage where they time the collapse.

First, I believe they start the countdown a second or two before any movement in the tower. But OK, no big deal. But then watch closely during the countdown...Watch especially the smoke.

Do you see what I see?

The video is slowed down during the countdown.

Go ahead, compare the smoke in a real-time video to the smoke you see in the countdown video.

I know, you won't admit it, but that's OK, I don't care.

Suspend your disbelief, then tell my you believe the Official Story. Except for the parts that you don't believe and use annonomous blogs to bolster your story. Ignore facts (like the molten steel and melted iron in Bld 7), and tell me the Gov't got their reporting wrong because they were confused. Which is ok, they're only human. But, you still believe what they told you, even though you admit they were too flustered to get it right.

Whew, now there's some real transparent critical thinking!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
I stand corrected.

I count 12 seconds for the complete collapse, from start to finish.

Yes, this does prove to me that office fires were indeed the cause of this failure.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
Like I said before LIHOP and MIHOP.

It took both together to make 9-11-2001 happen for the full effect to take place.



Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1OW7b-oug

Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq [Paperback]
Susan Lindauer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Prejudice-Terrifying-Story-Patriot/dp/1453642757

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
All of Klimmer's comments need to be placed in perspective.

This is a man who believes in spaces ships on the moon, aliens visiting earth, and a very strange creation mythology. None of his opinions or statements should be taken seriously if you value intelligent discourse.


Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 29, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
It's "Great Googily Moogily".
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
All of Klimmer's comments need to be placed in perspective.

This is a man who believes in spaces ships on the moon, aliens visiting earth, and a very strange creation mythology. None of his opinions or statements should be taken seriously if you value intelligent discourse.


Port,

Sorry you are soooo far behind.

Catch-up while we still have time.




Prove that there isn't a spaceship on the Moon that Apollo 15, Apollo 17, and maybe Apollo 20 (???), and even the the NASA MLO and the Lunar Japanese remote sensing/imaging camera system Sylene all have taken a plethora of images of that massive ship that can be viewed in 3D stereo. Even at least one NASA Apollo astronaut has confirmed there is a massive spaceship on the backside of the Moon.

You better read Leslie Kean's Book on UFOs. Many countries/governments are disclosing the truth of UFOs. Do I beleive they are Aliens from a distant star or from another galaxy? No. I believe they are intra-terrestials and can move between dimensions. They are pretending to be something they are not. The Good Book says Lucifer can appear as an Angel of Light. In other words, he can appear to be something he is not. Jesus himself said the last days would be like the Days of Noah. Better find out about the Days of Noah. (Hint: falling Angels mating with Earthly women and the entire Earth going to Hell in a Handbasket very fast with unbeleivable evil abounding. Kind of sounds like modern abductions that have been very much documented all over the World, not to mention the abundant evil that abounds.)

Creation mythology: not as you think of it. I believe in Theistic Evolution. Same time line. Same evolution, but with GOD stepping in at times and directing where it goes. You should read The Science of GOD by physicist Gerald Schroeder.

You better be able to accept the founding fathers of modern science for who they were. They were all men of faith, and they did brilliant science to boot.





Try to stay on topic. We are talking about 9-11-2001 on this thread. Stop with the attacks. I can accept you don't think or beleive as I do. I really don't attack you personally. So stop with the childish behavior.
fosburg

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 05:04pm PT
Wade is right. I just saw Zappa plays Zappa last night and those were the exact words. Oh, and anyone who thinks a 757 crashed into the pentagon is on glue. Step right up...
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
Ok, you all got me.

I'm one of "THEM".

You're right, it was an insider job. You see, we've developed enhanced RayGun technology from one of the spaceships stored at Area 51. And this RayGun technology can both take down buildings *and* look like airplanes *and* start a nuclear reaction on the bottom of a pile to make it smolder for months *and* even time travel, so we can make up the existence of people supposedly on those planes *and* plant the existence of those people in your minds, all before the event.

But we forgot to sabotage all the video cameras, and when the Pentagon RayGun malfunctioned and didn't look like an airplane, the FBI had to run around and confiscate the video. Oopsy.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:30pm PT
No doubt there is plenty to complain about regarding Obama, but he didn't start this fire, Bush & The Neocons did.



They "TPTB" knew what was going to happen and they used it to their advantage to accomplish what they wanted: LIHOP

Also they "TPTB" knew what they had to do to make it happen: MIHOP


**Eric Rockefeller revealed to Aaron Russo what the NWO wants and that something big was going to happen to be the pretext to go war and invade Afghanistan and Iraq before 9-11-2001.


**Lt. Mike Vreeland from the Pentagon revealed while jailed in Canada that 9-11-2001 would occur and what the events would be. He wrote this down and sealed it in an envelope and gave it to the Canadian authorites. They opened it after 9-11-2001 occurred. This has been verified in Canadian court.


**Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer reveals that US intelligence knew very specifically that the WTC towers would be attacked by aircraft before 9-11-2001 and she shares all the specific details and more. She was held in prison for 5 years by our US govenment on a Texas military base in attempts to silence her.



All of this verifies LIHOP and MIHOP.




Eric Rockefeller Reveals 9/11 FRAUD to Aaron Russo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA&feature=related



A White Knight Talking Backwards
SPY CASE IN CANADIAN COURTS SUGGESTS US NAVAL OFFICER HAD FOREKNOWLEDGE OF 9-11
by Michael C. Ruppert, Author of Crossing The Rubicon
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_25_02_revised_012802_vreeland.html
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_28_02_vreeland.jpg



Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1OW7b-oug

Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq [Paperback]
Susan Lindauer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Prejudice-Terrifying-Story-Patriot/dp/1453642757






"Spies Knew"
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
It's clear that if you looked to the grassy knoll in Dealy Plaza, Dallas, you would have seen a 2nd missile fired by Jack Ruby hit the Pentagon. He was really shooting at Big Foot, but missed.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
Ron,

You are very naive. You actually think we have freedom of press. That went out with the fairness doctrine. They continually squash real news all the time in MSM.

News stations in MSM are all Corporate owned. Corporations have extreme biases and cover-up the truth for their selfish motives.

All cases of true crimes brought to trial in court against TPTB are quickly squashed as well.

Have you not been paying attention to anything?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:55pm PT
All orchestrated by these two!

Dingus, I don't know of anybody who things Bush and Cheney orchestrated 9-11. At least I certainly don't.



Riley, to answer your question, yes, this topic does remind me of others where science is being ignored.

From the wikipedia page you referenced:

According to the group, and NIST themselves who considered it unnecessary, NIST did not look for physical evidence of explosives[26][42] and did not include the eyewitness accounts from first responders and from people who escaped the buildings in their investigation.[51] The organization also alleges that much of the physical evidence, apart from a few selected samples of the steel, would have been destroyed.[42]

For real science to take place, you have to test for the most likely cause, which NIST purposely did NOT do. I have a problem with this. The steel in the WTC buildings was liquid. Why not test for the only possible explanation for this level of heat.

I know you cannot explain that one, without telling me that controlled demolition was ruled out because of prejudice (i.e. prejudging the result), which is NOT scientific.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
Also, are you 'truthers' denying a bunch of crazy arabs crashed planes into the towers?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
Dingus, I'll be forthright and say that I do believe that there was a cover up of the 9-11 events (did I fool you?). I believe there are many levels of planning and complacency associated with those events.

I believe the planning for such an event was years in the making, long before W took office. It's my belief that the real folks in power don't come and go with WH administrations. Remember, those in the military and who control the black budget aren't elected.

I am open to any scenario, however, and even the Official Story can be possible. But we will never know without a real investigation that doesn't hide facts, evidence, testimony, and real science.

Even the believers on this site have shown no love for the Official Story as told by the 9-11 Commission Report. They point to blogs to explain events, blogs that contradict the Official Story. Yet they are firm in their belief that the Official Story is correct and true. Amazing, no?

Cell phone calls from airplanes. Ah, minor lie.
Dismissal of melted steel at the WTC. Ah, any office fire could do that, what's the gripe?

On and on, the pure Suspension of Disbelief. You have to have it to swallow the Official Story. Yet look at all these folks that are so stone certain that The Story is the only way it could have happened.


Sorry Riley, but Kool-Aid. It's cheap and plentiful.

And I'll stop saying that as soon as you explain the molten steel at the World Trade Center, weeks after the fires were out.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
ssso the drift 'o' the thread is now bldng 7 since the whole "not a plane" thing has gone "up in smoke"?

Well Ron, I stopped perusing that path because nobody wanted to overlay the outline of a 757 on top of the over-sized Pentagon image that monolith posted a while back.

I figured all you believers fled the scene because you realized that there was no way a 757 could have caused the damage that occurred at that site.

But I'm willing to keep discussing if you want. Are you going to show us the overlay?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
There are one of two responses...

a. SEE! WE TOLD YOU SO! or....
b. LIARS!!!!1111111

Cheers
DMT


Good point.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
k-man, really, you'll stop? AWESOME... here ya go...

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
Ron, you mean your sketch that wasn't to scale?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:25pm PT
Cleo, your link explains the melted steel by denying it existed.

To finish, none of these stories prove there was molten (as in liquid) steel at the WTC. There's no evidence temperatures were hot enough to produce that (whatever the energy source), and some of the stories claiming "molten steel" have built-in implausibilities.

So, this report ignores eye witnesses, and photos. There is a picture of liquid steel flowing out of the WTC tower. Hard to deny. Sorry.


Maybe you havea picture of Atta flying the plane. You know, there is no proof that he actually flew it, right?


Keep drinking cleo, the Kool-Aid is plentiful.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
"The truth always passes through three stages; First, it is ridiculed, Second, it is violently opposed and finally, it is accepted as self-evident."
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
I have made cell phone calls from aircraft while in the air.

Really Dingus, in 2001 you made high-altitude cell phone calls?
Impressive to say the least.


Also, a scientific study is one that can be reproduced.

So, let's go with Werner and fire up that 757!
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
Ah, I see we're in the

b. LIARS!!!!1111111

camp!!!




But wait, I thought there was no plane? I mean, at the Pentagon? But instead, there was somebody else flying a plane at the WTC? Wait, I'm confused, which is it, missiles or planes? Why would they change strategies?

Oh right, the raygun malfunctioned, forget I confessed that...


P.S. I've made high altitude phone calls too. Not hard. Yes, before 2001. Because that's when I was working and flying a lot, I haven't flown much since 2003.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
Yeti was spotted on the Pentagon lawn just before the explosion. Connection?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
cleo, your web page is very telling, because the only way to explain the melted steel is by denying it existed at all.

It's not there, so no problem.

However, there is a problem because there is video of liquid steel flowing out of the WTC towers.


This is the problem that I have with a lot of the Official Story, it cherry picks the evidence it wants to use to bolster The Story.

High-altitude cell phone calls. OK you guys, get real. Type this into Google for a little research:

9-11 high-altitude cell phone calls

Read the page-upon-page of reports that say it didn't work in 2001.

But now we have two miracles right here on SuperTopo. Amazing.





EDIT: This is going nowhere. The believers will believe anything the Gov't tells them (unless a blog better supports their pre-judged opinion). Versus the 9-11 Truth Movement who has eye-witness, photos, and other sources of evidence that are glossed over.

As someone who does not believe the Official Story as presented, I would like to see answers to some of the hard questions. Like, cloe, how come the molten steel. The list is very long and telling, and for all the things to happen as stated in the Official Story, well it wouldn't be one or two minor miracles, it's be many Major miracles, all compressed into one morning. Id's sooner believe that I'll hit the lottery twice in a row.

So have at it folks. Keep posting up web sites that contradict the US Gov't story in an attempt to prove their story is correct. Like Werner said, the truth will out.


PS. Thanks Dingus for your reply!

Cheers all...
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
AMAZING!!!!

b. LIARS!1111111

Yep, I'm lying about the cell phone. Nope, never ever got a kick out of freaking out colleagues by doing just that way back in them olden days. Nope, didn't learn to do it when someone else did it to me way back then. I even remember exactly which someone (a client) and why we were flying together (we did it twice a week during Summer 2001). But anyway, I'm lying! Must be!

(actually, i have no idea what this has to do with your nutty theories, but you keep mentioning it...)
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
Nearly all of the calls were made using airphones. You know, the back of the seat variety. Only a few came from cell phones, in known cell phone corridors. Why would the NWO fake both kinds, when they could just fake the airphone ones?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth.

Klimmer pulls a good one out from deep in the murk.

You guys are wasting your time arguing about the cell phone stuff.

It's not even important and all you'll do is get swallowed up in the murk.

The real deal good stuff is all coming out bit by bit.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
Werner's right. The cell phone thing is just one small egg in a huge omelet.

OK, you brought me back.

It cannot be proved that the planes did, or did not, have in-flight phones. American Airlines has stated that their planes did not have 'em, but then with all the hoobaloo, they came back and said "Well, maybe one or two of our planes had them, we really don't know."


cleo, sorry if it seemed like I said you were a liar. Well, I said you experienced a miracle, I didn't really say you were a liar.


That was not directly saying you were a liar, like the page you posted where it basically says that all who saw molten steel at the WTC site were liars. You know, it denied that there was melted steel... Even though video of melted steel is all over the place.
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
Dang, the NWO is stupid. Faking airphone calls on planes with no airphones. Amazing they haven't been caught yet. I guess the airlines and all those maintenance personel and aircrew are in on the conspiracy as well.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 10:03pm PT
The only guy who's talking about conspiracy is you mono and your tool friends.

The rest of us are just interested in the reading in the many interesting subject matters on this.

We can think for ourselves very well unlike you who only needs to ridicule everything at every turn that doesn't jive with your stupid tool mentality.

monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
Doesn't take much to realize how stupid an idea it is that the planes had no airphones Warner. Sorry to have to point out the obvious. Apparently, K-man can't think for himself.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
You guys are wasting your time arguing about the cell phone stuff.

It's not even important and all you'll do is get swallowed up in the murk.

Yeah, that and common sense and logic. What happened to the people aboard the flight that is purported to have flown into the Pentagon??

Where is that plane at, if instead, it was a cruise missile? What happened to the people?

You people make no sense and cast unfounded theories that are ridiculous!
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 10:21pm PT
And where on that plane?

You're full of sh'it dude.

You weren't on that plane so you ultimately have no clue yourself.

You're buying exactly what you want just like everyone else according to what you want to believe that is handed to you .....
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
The phones were behind most of the seats, Warner. Don't you remember taking flights with them? I sure do.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
You're buying exactly what you want just like everyone else according to what you want to believe that is handed to you .....


Look in the mirror, Johnson.

What happened to the planes and the people aboard them? Cheney ate them?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 10:34pm PT
Like I said "You're an idiot".

I never mention anything about phones being there or not.

What conspiracy are you talking about anyway?

There's no Warner in this conversation.

If you're a stickler for facts get your facts straight before you shoot your mouth ....
apogee

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
"Cheney ate them?"

It might have happened that way...

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
Hey Werner, relax.

Geez....
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
Geebus Werner, you said 'and where on that plane'. Don't ya think that could easily be asking where on the plane the phones were. Relax dude.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
You people make no sense and cast unfounded theories that are ridiculous!


No that's your projection onto us.

For your information I didn't make any theories.

I said do the experiment.

What kind of investigators are you?

Pretty poor ones .....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
For your information I didn't make any theories.

Warner, (I did that just to piss you off), I disagree. You guys are using theories to support your illogical ideas of what happened. You thereby are using them to further, or prove, your point.

Yer entitled to yer opinion, I just disagree on this one.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:08pm PT
Kevin , pick the Bong up- sounds interesting and is what I thought was possible all along.
TY
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:08pm PT
Ho man! I was in bad shape Saturday....

Tummy full of hot-dogs unt bier, throw in a splash of ze hash.

Lights out, Bluey......
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
You guys are using theories to support your illogical ideas of what happened.

Another projection Bluey.

I don't have ideas.

I have no clue except for what's presented.

A good investigator looks at at everything presented.

When Bluey gets lost in the woods I'll just tell his wife and kids he lost his bong and he'll be back soon that's why we don't even need to search for him ......
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
Borg Warner? beware the Borg!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:09am PT
coz, if by "you guys" you mean me, no. I'm not saying that.

What I am saying is that I don't believe the Official Story and think it would be great to have a real investigation that wasn't lead by stooges of the administration, and where all evidence and eye-witness testimony was taken into account.

Why would the 9-11 commission ignore something as important as the testimony that Mineta gave under oath? Or the fact that the steel in the WTC buildings melted. Maybe that sits OK with you, but it doesn't sit well with me.


OK, I've said my piece on this thread and will start wasting my time elsewhere. However, I came back because something I said earlier didn't sit well with me, and I wanted to clear that up.

I made a comment about in-flight phones not being on the AA 757s, and that was from the sometimes-foggy memory that I posses. I wasn't exactly sure that what I stated was true, and I wanted to research the claim and apologize for any misinformation that I might have spewed.

So I did some research, and found this excellent page on the phone calls made from the planes on 9-11-2001, it talks about both cell phone coverage and in-flight phones. Read up on it if you're interested:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/amrarticle.html


In addition, there is this page, which addresses the same thing in a different manner:

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/analysis/phonecalls.html

To me, both these sites take an objective view. I apologize in advance if after reading these with an open mind, you find them to be slanted.


cloe, you really are lucky, to be able to make those cell phone calls from high-altitude planes in 2001 as you claim you did!

Cheers all!!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:27am PT
You don't need DNA from people on the plane. You just need to corrupt the results. Lots of ways to do that without anyone being the wiser.

Give the technician the correct sample from the persons home that you want to test for, and a sample from the site, people did die in the pentagon so there were samples, then while the tests are being done, change whichever results you need. The comparisons are done by computers. So just corrupt the computer and have it tell you whatever results you want.

None of this means I believe one way or the other. I'm just answering Coz's question.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:38am PT
Easy to see why O.J. walked reading this conspiracy nonsense. Must be slow in the Valley these days.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2011 - 11:15am PT
"Ninety-five percent of the work of the intelligence agencies around the world is deception and disinformation," von Bülow said, which is widely propagated in the mainstream media creating an accepted version of events.

"Journalists don't even raise the simplest questions," he said, adding, "those who differ are labeled as crazy."
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:33pm PT
No reason to argue about AA Flight 77 and cell phones or phones at all.

We already have come to the truth on the matter. The FBI told us in trial . . .

"trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called 20th hijacker. The evidence presented to this trial by the FBI included a report on phone calls from all four 9/11 flights. In its report on American Flight 77, the FBI report attributed only one call to Barbara Olson and it was an “unconnected call,” which (of course) lasted “0 seconds.”9 According to the FBI, therefore, Ted Olson did not receive a single call from his wife using either a cell phone or an onboard phone."


FBI: 9/11 cell phone calls from jets did not happen
http://www.zimbio.com/Ted+Olson/articles/6gELkGlBsd7/FBI+9+11+cell+phone+calls+jets+not+happen





There was an obvious stand down order coming from VP Dick Cheney.
When they didn't shoot down the fast craft approaching the Pentagon when they fully knew it and the military personnel under the WH bunker was counting down the distances with plenty of time to prevent it, and then asks Cheney if the orders still stands?, and Cheney says "They still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"

Well, the craft was never fired upon. It was allowed to strike the Pentagon. The order given was a stand down order. Plain and simple. No other explaination is possible.


911 Commission - Trans. Sec Norman Mineta Testimony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y
Mineta and the secret orders of Cheney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGI5BmNd7AE&NR=1




American Intelligence General, General Stubblebine Says 911 was a fraud
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slEM9aaLkYA&feature=related

General Stubblebine NOW, Lives in Latin America, in Remote area, [ WHY ?] was the top of USA intelligence gathering when he retired, He is the highest ranking retired General to investigate on 9-11.

And LISTEN to what he said, but was not reported by our American Media, but by Foreign Media, note the German Sub-titles. Americans are getting perpetual LIES spoon fed to them.

This retired General tells you truth. He has no reason to lie after a lifetime of service to the USA:
Pentagon not hit by a plane
WTC 7 brought down by Explosives
MEDIA is controlled



Onto the 9-11 Commission . . .

Truthers ask hard questions of Senator Bob Kerry, member of the 9-11 Commission, at an ESRI ARCGIS conference he was giving a speech at (ESRI the makers of the best GIS software in the World), with Jack Dangermond the CEO of ESRI standing near by. 9-11 Truth happens where ever you are . . .


9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey finally confesses 9-11 Commission could not do it's job - Part 1 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrqq2KxyWAs&NR=1
9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey finally confesses 9-11 Commission could not do it's job - Part 2 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fczMuxtOEU8&feature=watch_response_rev
9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey finally confesses 9-11 Commission could not do it's job - Part 3 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJWBcWAeAw&feature=player_embedded#!

9/11 Commissioner and ex Senator Bob Kerrey from Nebraska was asked at the end of this video and mentioned “We are dealing with a 30 year conspiracy” and claimed there was not enough time to properly investigate all the data.

He admits the truth of the conspiracy of 9-11 even reaches back all the way to the truth of the assasination of JFK. Amazing admonitions.




My President that they assassinated told us the truth . . . and they hated him for it. He was perhaps one of the last great Presidents of our Country.

JFK telling us the 911 truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxnpujfanUM&feature=related

RFK to Johnson: "Why did have my brother killed?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzWNDPx4Pm0&feature=related

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:39pm PT
Let's not forget this very recent news . . .



An Explosive New 9/11 Charge by Richard Clarke (OT)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1578896&msg=1578896#msg1578896

Coming up to the 10th Anniversary, it comes as no surprise to me and many others throughout the World who have really looked deep into the truth of 9-11-01, regardless of how painful it is:

LIHOP at a minimum, MIHOP at a maximum. I think some aspects of 9-11-01 were LIHOP, and then many aspects were MIHOP. It was both. So I think we really have LMIHOP.

Just look at what has happened since 9-11-01. Who has benefited? Who has gained? The Military-Industrial-Spy-Intelligence-Complex. Corporations. Bankers. Those who would want to bring about the NWO with authoritarian governments run rampant, and the purposeful weakening or potential loss of our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The severely weakened economy and the lose of many jobs and the attack on the American Middle Class and everything right, noble, and that purports to be about treating others with respect, and treating others with dignity, and treating others as you would want to be treated, "The Golden Rule" as Christ taught us, all of this works to the same very dark and sinister means, motive, and opportunity.




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x620176

An Explosive New 9/11 Charge (CIA tried to recruit 9/11 hijackers—then covered it up-Richard Clarke)

Edited on Thu Aug-11-11 07:28 PM by kpete
Source: The Daily Beast

An Explosive New 9/11 Charge
In a new documentary, former national-security aide Richard Clarke suggests the CIA tried to recruit 9/11 hijackers—then covered it up. Philip Shenon on George Tenet’s denial.
Aug 11, 2011 8:47 AM EDT


With the 10th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks only a month away, former CIA Director George Tenet and two former top aides are fighting back hard against allegations that they engaged in a massive cover-up in 2000 and 2001 to hide intelligence from the White House and the FBI that might have prevented the attacks.

The source of the explosive, unproved allegations is a man who once considered Tenet a close friend: former White House counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke, who makes the charges against Tenet and the CIA in an interview for a radio documentary timed to the 10th anniversary next month. Portions of the Clarke interview were made available to The Daily Beast by the producers of the documentary.

In the interview for the documentary, Clarke offers an incendiary theory that, if true, would rewrite the history of the 9/11 attacks, suggesting that the CIA intentionally withheld information from the White House and FBI in 2000 and 2001 that two Saudi-born terrorists were on U.S. soil—terrorists who went on to become suicide hijackers on 9/11.

............

Clarke says it is fair to conclude “there was a high-level decision in the CIA ordering people not to share information.” Asked who would have made the order, Clarke replies, “I would think it would have been made by the director,” referring to Tenet



Read more: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/11/september-11th-anniversary-richard-clarke-s-explosive-cia-cover-up-charge.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------


In a written response prepared last week in advance of the broadcast, Tenet says that Clarke, who famously went public in 2004 to blow the whistle on the Bush White House over intelligence failures before 9/11, has “suddenly invented baseless allegations which are belied by the record and unworthy of serious consideration.”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/62083444/Joint-Statement




Weird. This article from Vanity Fair
reference the same two guys but implies they received Saudi assistance. See p. 7.

They were Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi, both Saudis, both experienced jihadis—holy warriors—though still in their mid-20s. They entered the country through Los Angeles International Airport as early as January 15, 2000, with scant knowledge of the English language and zero experience of life in the West. The 9/11-commission report declared it “unlikely” that the pair “would have come to the United States without arranging to receive assistance from one or more individuals informed in advance of their arrival.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/08/9-11-2011-201108#


The CIA insisted to the 9/11 Commission and other government investigations that the agency never knew the exact whereabouts of the two hijackers, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar, inside the U.S.—let alone try to recruit them as spies.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/11/september-11th-anniversary-richard-clarke-s-explosive-cia-cover-up-charge.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:48pm PT
It all matters.

Massive crimes were committed against the US and the World in our name.

Our freedoms are at stake.

These massive evil, immoral, heinous, corrupt false-flag operations done by people without souls, who aren't even voted into office and perpetuate endless War and War profiteering for their own selfish gains have to be stopped.


These criminals need to be brought to justice.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:50pm PT

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x608735


Richard Clarke suspects CIA coverup on 9/11 hijackers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8lRlc0SLAg



Clip from new documentary: Who Is Rich Blee - via Secrecy Kills
http://www.youtube.com/user/FF4Films#p/u/3/ndXhnl-g6To


Clarke airs suspicions over Sept. 11 intel failures - Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/clarke-airs-suspicions-over-sept-11-intelligence-failures/2011/08/11/gIQAx33K9I_blog.html


The documentary, called “Who is Richard Blee?” and produced by FF4 Films, is timed to the 10th anniversary of the attacks. The Clarke interview is scheduled to appear for the first time Thursday night, on a PBS station in Colorado and on the Web site SecrecyKills.com. News of it was first reported in The Daily Beast.

Clarke says he now suspects the CIA hid its knowledge that two of the Sept. 11 hijackers had entered the United States because the agency had tried – and failed – to recruit them as informants.

Clarke acknowledged his theory is not based on any evidence in a forthcoming documentary, according to a copy of the interview provided to the Post. But he says it is “the only conceivable reason that I’ve been able to come up with” to explain why the CIA failed to inform the FBI or the White House of the would-be hijackers presence.

Clarke goes on to say he believes “there was a high-level decision in the CIA ordering people not to share information,” all but pointing a finger at the CIA Director at the time, George J. Tenet.


Related:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4957703
monolith

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
Airphones were designed to work with the European system, the freq pairs and protocols were not compatable with what existed at the time in most of THIS nation.

Jeebus, you are dumber than a rock, RockJox.

We had airphones in the US. I flew on planes with airphones, even made a call on one. If those planes had no airphones, then the airlines, maintenance personal and flight crews are in on the conspiracy.

"sush, don't tell anyone those planes did not have airphones", LOL

Here are the airphone records for Barbara Olsen including FBI reports.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Barbara_Olson_calls
dirtbag

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
monolith is an illuminati agent
monolith

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
Sux, doesn't it RockJox. There you are claiming airphones didn't work in the US.

It doesn't get any dumber than that.

You should dump the bottle RokJox, alcohol is eating away at your brain.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
Why do you people believe a one or two 6th-hand, dubious-quality, supposed eyewitness or expert or whatever reports from random internet blogs, instead of (for example), FIRST HAND reports from people right here on Supertopo?

For example, a brief and incomplete list from this tiny, miniscule thread ALONE yields:

TWO FIRST-HAND reports from people right here on SuperTopo that:

a) yes, indeed, cell phones can, do, and did work on airplanes in 2001.
b) seeing an actual airplane crash into the actual Pentagon.
monolith

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
Flight 77 had airphones. AA said they did not have them in 2004, Rokjox. Do you know that that is 3 years after 2001?

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/American_Airlines_Flight_77_Calls

Again, nearly all of the calls were made on airphones. Only a handful were on cell phones, just as one would expect.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
A) actually, it was possible. I, personally, made several phone calls from planes in summer of 2001, usually to check voicemail, and sometimes to tease/freak someone out, and was taught to do it by a colleague. It wasn't difficult, and it worked maybe half the time. This is backed up by DMT, right here on Supertopo. The reports saying it is "impossible" are highly, highly flawed, and just plain wrong.


B) Yep. Read the thread again. Two people chimed in. Don't remember who. Every single one of you conspiracy nuts did an awesome job of totally ignoring both comments. TOTALLY IGNORING!! It was really impressive, the ignoring!
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
These things HAVE been laid to rest.


You people keep digging up the old graves.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
as far as airphones go, the initial reports were that the calls were made mostly on cellphones--far less obtrusive in the presence of those bad-guy hijackers. a.k. dewdney, a prominent canadian scientist and longtime questioner of 9/11 "facts", did these same personal experiments around 2003 and found no possibility of making contact above 5,000 feet. this was on commercial airliners, not on top of peaks in the rockies with a straight line to banff. cellphone technology has improved since then, so it's easier to make contact in flight, although you're still not supposed to.

the common perception of all that may have changed now--it's quite a slippery slope the disinformation people have to tread, back-revising the news of the day. they love to gang up on simple facts with heavyweight "experts". rest assured that the comprehesive NIST report on building 7 was made by a native of india who came here to study engineering and who, i'm sure, was motivated by the highest patriotic interests to clear the good name of america, which did nothing but pave his way to success at the top of his field. i wonder what a hungrier home-grown engineer would have found. there are a good 1,000 of them signed on to a petition to investigate. the government itself threw up its hands for several years at explaining the building 7 collapse until they got this little gang of toadies together. you need imagination to cook up a fantasy that a single column--they even gave it a number--could collapse a grid structure framework like the key log in a logjam.

there is great faith in the short attention span. you've got building 7 all explained away, then some sumbuck comes up with light poles broken the wrong way at the pentagon. you get a few experts to testify that, yes, the partial vacuum behind an airliner could've got them to flip the wrong way, and then someone starts harping about all the market trading in put options for american and united before the attacks--just the sort of thing the CIA was developing software to detect, only here it was so obvious you didn't need software. then you get those little fires put out with wall street experts ("no big deal" they all say--and who are we to question experts?) and someone starts talking about microspheres of iron in the WTC dust.

the genius of this industry is that everyone forgets about the last thing that was talked about as soon as the next thing comes up. all you have to do is read a supertopo 9/11 thread to understand that.
monolith

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
Engineers at our primary Maintenance & Engineering base in Tulsa tell me that they cannot find any record that the 757 aircraft flown into the Pentagon on 9/11 had had its seatback phones deactivated by that date. An Engineering Change Order to deactivate the seatback phone system on the 757 fleet had been issued by that time... It is our contention that the seatback phones on Flight 77 were working because there is no entry in that aircraft’s records to indicate when the phones were disconnected.
John Hotard, Corporate Communications, American Airlines
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
I did some personal cell phone experiments in 2001, and found it was pretty easy to make calls. I'm 100% sure of the timing.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Aug 30, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
Assuming there was some grand conspiracy what was the point? What would we do about it anyway? Anyone who could pull something like that off is way smarter and more diabolical than any of us.

I think the real cover-ups are of the gross incompetence of various federal agencies, largely arising from their own petty turf wars.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 30, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
cloe, I am curious about the high-altitude cell phone calls you made in 2001.

Interesting to say the least, considering all that's been written saying how difficult it would be to make them (did anyone other than yourself say "Impossible?").

Where were you flying? Do you remember what type of plane (I know, this is probably a difficult one to answer). I am not saying you couldn't have made the calls. I'm just wondering the circumstances that allowed you to make these calls, when it's obviously been a big point of contention in the Official Story.

cheers
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 05:00pm PT
actually, there is very little saying that making those calls is "impossible"... something like a total of 2 sources, both with heavy conspiracy bias.

And LOTS and LOTS of people saying is is possible. Seriously, lots.

What kind of plane? Actually, that's easy... usually (but not always), I flew Southwest, who only uses 737s. Between Albany, NY/Manchester, NH -> Las Vegas, or Albuquerque. Mostly ABQ-> Las Vegas.

Not sure why that all matters, probably depends more on cell phone tower configurations, sun storms, network load, etc... Why does my cell phone drop calls in my home in the evening but not usually in the early morning? I have no idea.

(oh, and fwiw, the person who taught me this trick and felt less guilty about using it worked for the government, which had extensive contracts with American Airlines. I remember him complaining about not being able to choose the airline on occasion. Not that it should matter anyway.)

I also remember lots of flights with those in-seat phones, which come to think of it, I haven't seen in a while... and keep in mind, I STARTED this job in Jan, 2001, so if the phones had been removed prior to Sept, 2001, I wouldn't have many memories of flying with them. In fact, when I heard of in-flight 9-11 calls, I too assumed in-seat phones since they were so ubiquitous.

I also flew ~10 days after Sept 11... and I'm pretty sure I'd have noticed a lack of in-seat phones THEN. Everyone was completely freaked out and staring at each other - could he be a terrorist? - the flight was about 15% full, and I decided the best weapon I had was my laptop (smack somebody in the head, ouch!). I was definitely thinking about contingencies, and a lack of seatphone would have been very obvious.
monolith

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
^^Yep^^, nearly all calls on airphones. Only 2 confirmed cell calls, and they were at low altitude on flight 93 in a known cell phone corridor.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
Like usually, this 911 thread has become a parade of the morons with Rox and Klimmer leading the way.

What next? are you going to call me a sheep? or maybe tell me to wake up?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 30, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
Arrrrgggh!! Don't draw me into this again!!

"no possibility." And in less than the space of a paragraph the poster went from not possible to 'easier.'

Dingus, I guess the part of the single paragraph that you left out was "cellphone technology has improved since ..."

Not that *that* would make a difference in the context or meaning ;-)




But heck, you gotta admit, the video from the OP is pretty darn cool!
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
Re: cell phones.

I'm guessing one of the popular conspiracy theories falls apart if passengers made phone calls from one or all of the planes. Thus, evidence of phone calls being impossible must be presented to prop up one (or several?) theories. And what, there were no phone calls made at all (e.g. the families and phone operators are IN on it too), or, what, there were 50 government agents in a phone bank room making calls to the families of people who supposedly died in these planes (and the government actually, what, kidnapped the planes and killed all these people as a coverup)?

I liked the X-Files too, but this is ridiculous.

I also need to go on a hiatus and get back to work!!!

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 30, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
cloe, have you stopped ignoring the molten steel flowing out of the WTC towers yet?
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
I don't think you understand the definition of "molten", or the definition of "steel" (not metal). Again, very, very few sources (like, 2?) saying they saw this (no experts either) like weeks? later, and the photos I saw? It isn't molten. Sorry.


Second, I think people really don't understand why and how those fires could be so hot for so long as to make metal glow red hot, but hell, if you were going to store something really hot, how would you do it? Perhaps with a lot of insulation? Hard to beat several stories of concrete...


Again, the explanation(s) and rebuttals by the standard sources are, quite frankly, more than adequate from an engineering viewpoint.


kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Aug 30, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
Cellphone recievers are far stronger than the transmitters

Um at the tower you are wrong. At the phone itself, perhaps but not by more than a few dB.

cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
So let's see... the existence of "molten steel" proves that there must have been explosives present, right...

So... the conspiracy theory states that a bunch of gov't agents went in and wired up the two towers with so much explosives that when an airplane hit the building in just the exactly correct spot, it blew up, and somehow, not a single person of the thousands working inside noticed this activity?

(airplane flown by suicidal gov't agents, or was there no airplane?)




You find this more plausible then:

The twin towers, because of their unusual size, type, and age (year of construction) were actually built with less fire safety than was in the code at the time they were built. Many, many shortcuts. For example, all of the stairways** and thus, main structural columns, are in the center of the building. This happens to be perfect for allowing an airplane to enter the side of the building, then stopping it dead in the center, so that all the fuel could explode inside. Furthermore, it turns out some of the main steel columns had no fireproofing - NONE - which is why the steel melted so fast. In fact, structural engineers (that I know personally) tell me that *any* hot fire inside those buildings would've, most likely, brought it down (vertically, with gravity, like normal). No need for an airplane or explosion at all.

Nobody realized the extent of this, of course - it was unfathomable and nobody was thinking about it - certainly not the terrorists. In short, they happened to pick a particularly vulnerable target... they got "lucky".


** it might be elevators, my memory is fuzzy, but either way, the structural columns are in the middle AND I recall there being major problems with stairways too - in the wrong places and far too narrow to accommodate an evacuation of a building that size.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 30, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
Again, very, very few sources (like, 2?) saying they saw this (no experts either) like weeks?

cloe, this is quite wrong.

First, there is video readily available on the internet that shows red hot metal flowing out of the WTC towers before they fell. Then Michale Moore's film shows several pictures of red hot steel at the WTC site. There are several eye witness reports of seeing metal flowing.

You are ignoring these sources. Bzzzzzt.


And on your last quoted piece:

Furthermore, it turns out some of the main steel columns had no fireproofing - NONE - which is why the steel melted so fast.

Funny, above you had a link to a blog where it stated that the fires could not have been hot enough to melt steel. So, what's it going to be? More cherry picking?
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
red hot steel is not molten
aluminum siding is not steel.





Hang on, I'll post a picture of some molten steel and a cliff...

























wait for it......
































k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 30, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
Very nice, thanks.
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Aug 30, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
interesting full length movie debunking the "truthers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4YLYoTrFm4&feature=feedf
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
The aviation fuel burned off rapidly (approx. 15 minutes or so). Survivors came to the massive holes after the jets crashed into the WTC towers after the fuel burned off and peered out looking for help. The fires were not that great, nor very hot as indicated by the thick black smoke. Firefighters were able to get past the impact zones in the towers and said they were more than likely able to knock down the remaining fires. This came on radio and it is available to listen too. Then the towers fell.

Office fires do not burn hot enough to melt steel, nor do office furniture fires burn for months producing pools of molten steel at the bottom of the towers.

Thermite or Thermate does though, and the chemical fingerprint of Thermite/Thermate was indeed found within the dust of the collapsed WTC towers. This is without dispute. Samples were saved and with electron microprobe analysis it was identified. Then it was also ignited proving it is what it is. See all of Dr. Steven Jones et al. studies that are published, and the images, and the videos.


Without a doubt the eye-witnesses saw what they saw. We have a plethora of visual evidence in still image and video of molten steel, along with the eye-wtiness testimonies to that fact.

Not to even mention and once again go into all the eye-witness testiomony to multiple explosives on multiple floors and in the basements of both towers.

You can not explain all this evidence away with the magical ignorant wave of your hand.


9/11: South Tower molten metal stabilization by JKeogh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbzdO0EPOGg&feature=related
Molten metal WTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p6UuGE0plk&feature=related
9/11: Molten Metal at Ground Zero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCdRA09pztM
9/11 - Ground Zero Molten Metal Confirmed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-XA0Rv1Ng8&feature=related
9 11 Blueprint molten metal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-J60B4kOq0&feature=related
9/11 Scientist Proves The Molten Metal With The Thermal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FHeGVEaNBk&feature=related
Thermite Scientifically Confirmed in 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy1oPmuZZ98&NR=1
Evidence of Nano Thermite Explosives on 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00soZ7rQw3U&feature=related
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
The fires were not that great, nor very hot as indicated by the thick black smoke. Firefighters were able to get past the impact zones in the towers and said they were more than likely able to knock down the remaining fires. This came on radio and it is available to listen too. Then the towers fell.

Office fires do not burn hot enough to melt steel, nor do office furniture fires burn for months producing pools of molten steel at the bottom of the towers.

Thermite or Thermate does though,



So, the fire wasn't that great or that hot (because there was smoke!), but ... but .... there was that VIDEO PROVING the those fires were SO HOT they were melting steel BEFORE the collapse. It's on all the Truther websites!. But... but... wait... which one of those TWO contradictory conspiracy theories do you believe, Klimmer?


cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
Right, office fires do not burn hot enough to melt steel? Why then, is fireproofing mandatory around steel columns? Ok, you win, how could a measly office fire melt steel?

Oh, maybe if you pour a few gazillion gallons of jet fuel you might be able to...gasp... *weaken* steel to the point of collapse. Doesn't need to melt! I guess that's why modern steel building are *required* to have fireproofing ... ya know, to prevent the steel from losing strength when it gets hot during a measly office fire!



But wait, that pile of office furniture and old textbooks in my backyard didn't melt any steel? See, can't be, wasn't hot. Well, you're right about that, at least.. there was no "molten steel" in the pile!

But you say you SAW some RED HOT STUFF?! Amazing! I see that in my fireplace! Imagine, you make a pile of a few gazillion tons and have it smolder for months under the heat from the jet fuel fire and the collapse energy and the insulation of all the crap on top, and some RED HOT STUFF gets pulled out. Whodathunk? Nobody... well, except anyone who's ever see, like, a campfire. Or a woodstove.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
Cleo,

No one is saying aviation fuel melted the steel. No one who cares about the truth is saying office furniture melted steel.

So what can melt steel? What was it that they found in the dust? Bingo.

They are saying thermite/thermate/nano-superthermate sure enough did, and this would also explain why the flowing steel, pooling steel, and steel remaining molten for a month or more occurred in the basement areas as witnessed by many who were tasked with the clean-up.

You are also forgetting the Madrid, Spain raging fire within a steel beam building being constructed that burned for something like 24 hrs. or more. No collapse. No molten steel. That fire raged very hot and long. had all the oxygen it needed. The building was still standing.

You do know buildings are designed for worst case scenarios. Redundancy. The insulation is for that safety margin and you know it.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
No Klimmer, molten steel witnessed by two people. Two dubious sources.

One. Two.


That's it. The other 25,000 people who helped clean up didn't see it. Not on video, or in pictures either.


More people have seen aliens flying over Oakland.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:43pm PT
Cleo,

Stop with the attacks.

Watch the videos and all the testimony that is provided. You are being purposefully ignorant. Lots of testimony, images, and videos exist of the molten steel and the cooled remains of the pools of formally molten steel.

They even have satellite imagery showing the hot spots within both towers that lasted for a month or more and right there is where they found the pools of molten steel as well elsewhere.




Dr. Steven Jones explains it simply:

Evidence of Nano Thermite Explosives on 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00soZ7rQw3U&feature=related


cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
I have watched the videos.

Not. Molten. Steel.
Weakened, very hot, ductile steel, yes. Red Hot Other Crap, yes.

Yes. Hot. For. Months.
Just like coal seams stay hot for dozens of years. Without the secret new DARPA SuperThermite.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
Molten Steel!!!



And... less OT!


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
No matter how hard you try you can not erase the evidence that is found in the dust of 9-11-2001. It's empirical. It physical. It's there.

Thermite/Thermate/Super nano-thermite


Dr. Steven Jones explains it simply:

Evidence of Nano Thermite Explosives on 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00soZ7rQw3U&feature=related


I'll try to find the pdf link to the original published paper.



cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:51pm PT
You mean, the paint? Yea, they found some trace evidence of paint.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
Cleo,


You have a degree in geology don't you?

Do you disrespect analytical science identifying elements, and elemental wt.% ratios to determine the chemical compounds using the electron micro-probe whether in EDS or WDS mode?


C'mon.



Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe
http://911blogger.com/node/19761


The Research article:

“Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe” by Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven E. Jones, Kevin R. Ryan, Frank M. Legge, Daniel Farnsworth, Gregg Roberts, James R. Gourley and Bradley R. Larsen
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:04pm PT
There is no evidence of anything other than normal, boring paint at the WTC. Yea, a couple of idiots posted crap papers... which (many, many other) scientists have refuted with overwhelming evidence and arguments. Weak sauce. A whole bunch of idiots have confusing blogs, full of this kind of crap.

So no, I don't respect crap science and crap papers. And yes, there are a few idiots calling themselves scientists, just like there are idiots in any profession.


But round and round we go... one thing gets refuted, you change the subject to another.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
Pure ignorance.

It's all I can say.


The 9-11 OCT is time and time again shown to be invalid and you keep holding on. Perhaps you're scared of the truth?

Yes I know. We all do. Truth I know is sometimes painful. Hope you can cope and handle it. Hope your not the last one on Earth to wake-up.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:29pm PT
Ron,

Hardly. The truth of the conspiracy is older (perhaps millions to billions of years), deeper, and more surreal than you can imagine.

9-11-2001 is just a symptom of more to come.

Read The Bible. Read The Book of Enoch.

I know the system is corrupt and rotten. It will get worse. But I will be able to look my kids in the eye and say I protested. I fought. I tried to do what I could do and make things right and hold off evil for as long as possible.

I will be able I hope to stand before GOD one day and say I fought for his truth and justice, and kept the great commandments, no matter the personal cost.

It's all I can do. It's all any of us can do.

Love GOD with all your heart. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Treat others as you would want to be treated (TGR). Stand against injustice. Stand up for the truth.





(Get some climbing and adventure in when you can. Lol)
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
dirtbag

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
I know the truth.






















































































Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
Ron,

I'm sure its all fairy tales to you, but haven't you heard about the fall of Lucifer and how 33% of the Angels decided to break rank and go with him?

That is indeed the birth of The Great Conspiracy. All other conspiracies derive from there.

That didn't happen just yesterday. The heavenly hosts witnessed the creation of the Universe (The Big Bang). Lucifer's fall happened long before man ever showed up on the scene, millions to billions of years prior.

If it is just fairy tales to you, at least know your fairy tales so you can converse.


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
Glenn, if you're so convinced of the truth of your ideas, why don't you post them under your own name?
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 01:41am PT
Well Riley, the Wikipedia link you posted about 9-11 conspiracy theory is about as fair and balanced as a Fox Op/Ed, not once do you see the arguments from a 9-11 Truther movement, but you do see plenty of references to the Popular Mechanics article, which has been thoroughly debunked.

No matter how hard you try, you will not convince me that a 757 hit the Pentagon. Nor will you convince this guy:

American Intelligence General, General Stubblebine Says 911 was a fraud

Nor will you convince me that office fires brought down WTC Bld 7.

You folks can model it any way you want, but why not test the dust for explosives? Like these folks did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw&feature=player_embedded


And yes Riley, I know you watched this last clip before. You even said you saw it in two different places. However, you paid so little attention, that you thought is was about a building that had been hit by a plane.

Anyway, you believe the "facts" that you want to. I will believe what my eyes and intuition tell me. Modern steel buildings don't fall down from office fires and you can't squeeze a 757 though a 16" hole.

Test the dust from the WTC, release the video from the Pentagon. That would settle it, wouldn't it?

So, please back to the nice pictures of fire falls. Now that is cool!
(Although somewhat non-PC ;-)
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Aug 31, 2011 - 02:14am PT
Video of Hittile Missing the Pentagon?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 31, 2011 - 02:28am PT
Coz, I've offered at climb with Klimmer in the past but he always turns down the offer. He should at least make an appearance at the Woodson reunion each year. From the climbing pictures he has posted, it looks as though he hasn't tied in sice 1980.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 31, 2011 - 03:49am PT
The absolute best thing about the whole "cruise missile" conspiracy is that it easily identifies idiots.

Similar to the moon landing is a hoax believers and the "we wired the trade centers with 50'000 miles of det cord and thousands of pounds of explosives but nobody noticed then flew a jumbo jet into it to cover the fact while not disturbing the det cord or explosives" believers.

The only benefit of the doubt i can give the folks who beleive the 9-11 related BS is that Bush-co really are evil, liars and incredibly secretive.. That can confuse folks for at least 2 minutes into considering the possibility that they actually were active participants in 9-11.

Sadly their other main characteristic , incompetence makes this ridiculous.. not to mention many other instantly obvious reasons there was no cruise missile.

Anyone who believes this crap is a high order IDIOT. Blinded by a well placed mistrust into actually disregarding any semblance of reasoning.

However they are in good company.

We are ALL idiots occasionally. Perhaps not High order idiots but idiots nonetheless.

I love most idiots. Most are really nice people. They hopefully will stick to being nice people and not try to do anything that might actually affect my well-being such as voting, designing anything i might use, Doing complicated tasks such as manufacturing certain items i might use or having any authority over me whatsoever.

Love all of you.. life is good, people are interesting.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
Riley, thanks for the couple of posts.

I guess it's a misstatement of mine to say I'd never be convinced. If a couple of independent companies tested the soil of the WTC and found there to be nothing suspicious there, and if the videos of the Pentagon were released that showed exactly what happened there, I'd be convinced.

But a lot of time has passed, and with all the new technology in place, it would be difficult to tell if any of the video was doctored. Much like the video in this original post--it looks very convincing.

That crusty old general, why give him any credit? Well, he happens to be one of the world's experts on analyzing photographic evidence. And he, like me, can't believe that a 757 made the damage that we see in the pictures of the Pentagon. I don't believe planes vaporize upon impact (the story given for the wings and rear tail piece), and still punch clean holes through six 18" reinforced concrete walls. The high-grade, heat resistant steel in the engines disappear without leaving a mark, yet somehow there's enough mass in the light fuselage to keep going after hitting not one, two, three, four, or even five thick cement walls... oh forget it.

Remember, anybody who goes against the grain on this thing is sticking their necks out professionally. It's just not an easy thing to do to put your coins down on the "9-11 Truth" movement side of the table, you are instantly labeled a kook and your professional career is at stake.

Riley (and cleo too), I appreciate your diligence on looking at all this stuff. And I respect your conclusions. (And, I'm sorry for the remark I made about the WTC B7 and planes, it was cheap and it didn't help to further the debate.) There's a lot of very suspicious activity surrounding the events on this thing, and these are all ignored by the 9-11 commission. Simply, the truth was silenced by that committee.

I'll be the first to admit, Tom Clancy and Ian Fleming together couldn't create a believable story about how this could have been pulled off via an inside job. But, if you believe what's being put forth by the Official Story, then you are ignoring the testimony of many very reputable people.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
You guys should read rschop's Journal.

You'll be amazed by the stuff he's gleaned from the 911 commission and official govt. documents themselves.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/rschop

Cheney's also scared right now he's going to be tried for war crimes ......
Gene

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8

Comments?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
Again, my father and two brothers with about a 100 years of commercial flying for United / Fedex between them each claim it was entirely possible.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Aug 31, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
Sadly, you would have to be feeble - minded to believe this conspiracy nonsense.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
Healy, there are dozens who are quoted as saying it was almost or entirely impossible. And they have made their names public and typed for themselves. Which set am I to believe? I have no idea.

Believe who you will, I'm just telling you what my family of professionals have said about it.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
Ron just keeps talking about an event that has no relation to to this event at the at the pentagon.

Fly the fuking airliner into the pentagon and quit rambling about jet fighters.

And Joe's family members are pro pilots so it may be possible for them.

Still they need to fly the fuking airliner with that pattern to walk the talk just as you so claimed all along on the wings of steel thread that if you haven't done the route then it's all bullsh'it.

You guys do a lot of talking with nothing to show for it other than the Govt. said this and that according to "THEIR" investigation.

Have any of you read the entire 911 commission report or the entire bullsh'it NIST drool?

Of course not.

You're all just picking choosing to whatever makes you feel good and passing it off as the "real stuff".

That's as wack out as a lot of the truther bullsh'it that's infiltrated with so many disinfo tools .....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:01pm PT
And Joe's family members are pro pilots so it may be possible for them.

No, they explicitly said it would be possible for the hijackers to fly it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:05pm PT
No, they explicitly said it would be possible for the hijackers to fly it.


Implying it's a suicide maneuver? You'd be stupid to try it unless you weren't afraid of dying?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
Dad started flying in Stearman bi-planes and retired from 747's - if he said it was possible, I personally take him at his word. Your choice is yours.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
Assholes, a real celebrity of the truthers movement appeared HERE, and was NOT allowed to make his argument.

How LAME was that? Can you even make a scale of lameness that huge?

Right up there with dirtineye scaring off Franz Bachman a few years back.

Oh, but that was climbing related. Sorry.
Gene

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
Know way!!!

Remind me again my conspiratorial inclined friends, who, how and why the Inside Jobbers did this.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
Has someone theorized why the gov't would fire a cruise missile into it's military headquarters?

Especially after angry Arabs had just slammed 2 planes into the WTC?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
So some seemingly reputable people said there was residue from thermite, or thermate or some such stuff. I'm not entirely certain on the reputable part, but what the heck, I heard it and now I wonder what the answer is.

did anyone find a source the disputes that, or proves it was something else? Just curious. Cleo said it was paint, but I didn't see a link.

Anyone got one?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
Another question.

If the fires burned hot enough to weaken the steal girders, then how did people end up standing in the windows looking out?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
If the fires burned hot enough to weaken the steal girders, then how did people end up standing in the windows looking out?


They weren't "looking out". They were preparing to jump because it was so hot, and sadly, they chose to die rather than suffer the blistering heat.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
Thats not what I remember, but I haven't looked at all the video in a long time. And don't really want to do it again. I lost a good friend that day.

Are you just blowing smoke, and did you look closely at this situation?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:39pm PT
Rocky, we already had reasons! Arab extremists already attacked the WTC!

So why fire a missile into the Pentagon?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 07:40pm PT
Bluey was in the building at the time measuring the temperature of the "heat"
with his thermometer.

Then he B.A.S.E ed out the back where there where no cameras and that's how he knows.
Gene

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
Rokjox,

What about who and how?

g
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:42pm PT

seem much more the likely scenerio than all these other conspiracy theories.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
Gene

Read some of this and you'll get glimpse .....

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/rschop
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
Werner, so why were people committing suicide by hurling to their deaths?

Has someone theorized why the gov't would fire a cruise missile into it's military headquarters?

Especially after angry Arabs had just slammed 2 planes into the WTC?

And can you theorize on these questions?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
You'll have to ask them ......
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
That's pretty lame, Werner. You know why....
Gene

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
Gene

Read some of this and you'll get glimpse .....

It's 12,400-plus words and 39 pages long. Can't read it now. Can I trade you a future glimpse for a current hint?

g
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
Bluey

You let too much of your emotions control your thoughts.

Instead of wasting your time here go do some work if really interested in this subject matter.

Spend a few years on it.

Not like most who read Popular mechanics and then are experts.

Go read the entire 911 commission report and the NIST drool.
Gene

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
locker,

If, gawd forbid, something goes wrong on your moon flight, can I have the $38,000,000 (USD) the Import/Export Bank of Nigeria owes you?

Good luck!

g
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
Bluey

You let too much of your emotions control your thoughts.

Instead of wasting your time here go do some work if really interested in this subject matter.

Werner, normally I would concur on the research part before talking sh#t. But before the research, the mind runs through certain obvious parts of these attacks.

It appears obvious to me that Angry Arabs attacked the WTC. To me, that is pretty clear based on what I've read after the fact.

So, after that happend, why would the ? fire a cruise missile into the lead US military agency HQ, the Pentagon? It makes no sense for some US agency to do this.

Are you implying some other agent did this? Like, the same Angry Arabs?

Please answer why you'd think the US did this, who you suspect otherwise, and why people lept from the WTC as it burned.

The lack of answers to these question is very telling from the CT mob here.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:15pm PT
Gene, that was a bitchen animation!

I say we morph that with the video in the OP and we'll have a winner!


Has someone theorized why the gov't would fire a cruise missile into it's military headquarters?


I'm no expert in these things, but from what the internet fortune tellers tell me...


The area of the Pentagon that was hit housed the accounting files. They were just getting ready to look into $2B that went missing (and here my memory fades a bit), from a project that Rummsfield was heading (or some such).

On Sept. 12, 2001, they completely forgot about the investigation into the $2B.

Now that might seem link chump-change to you or me, but to those guys, it's their lunch money.



A different question to ask: Why would the plane not hit the much easier side of the Pentagon (the one that was perfectly in line with the plane's approach) instead of making that wild-assed turning approach that Rox does such a good job of describing?

Silly of me to ask, I know cloe will have a spot-on answer up her sleeve. Here, how about this:

"The Pentagon is really hard to see when you're flying. But the new construction zone made a really easily identifiable target. You see, it had fresh paint."


Just kidding cloe. I love ya, and you know it.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 08:17pm PT
Bluey

On top of this page I gave the link to

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/rschop

Read it and quit asking questions.

Read it

Read it.

But none of you can because you're too fuking lazy ......
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
Werner, who the f*#k is rschop from the DemocraticUnderground'? Why Should I take him seriously? I'll read it....hold on.

EDIT: I started reading it. It's Bullshit!!!!!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:25pm PT
Bluey, why the hell should I read a report that was put together by a bunch of puppet stooges?


Stop the presses! I've just started reading the 9-11 Commission Report, and if I said it was bullsh#t, that'd be a lie because at least bullshit is worth something!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:30pm PT
My mistake. shouldn't have brought up the people standing in the opening.

I really want to know about the thermite residue. Did anyone disprove that?
dirtbag

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:30pm PT

Yes, I see a boeing. There is a tail sticking up in that photo.

That shot is from a conspiracy website, btw, not some illuminati run prop outfit.

But wtf do I know? I'm sure the dentist put a chip in my fillings, along with the flouride to brainwash me.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
Bluey -- "Why Should I take him seriously?"

All the information this guys gives was right from the official 911 commission report.

The same guys you so believe and now say it's bullsh'it.

Like I said. It's right out from the 911 commission report itself.

But you're so smart you call your own understanding of 911 bullsh'it.

You've been owned .....
Gene

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
Much has been made that whatever hit the Pentagon took out the main DOD accounting offices. A $1.2 trillion shortfall has been suggested as a motive. I would suggest that (1) blaming the Clinton administration, which left 8 months prior to 9/11 &/or (2) cooking the books, would have been a much cleaner and more expedient way to solve this issue rather than blow up the freaking place. Book cooking was very popular back then. Enron. WorldCom, etc.

Was the attack on the Pentagon part and parcel of getting the US into an oil grabbing war, or just a convenient addendum to cover missing $$$?

{As if the DOD doesn’t have secure off-site storage of everything.}
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:41pm PT


Good one Werner!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
Would yall look at this video and tell me what you see in the first 20 seconds?

http://www.rimcountry.com/reminder.htm

Scroll to the bottom. It is titled. 9/11.. remembering the jumpers.


Freeze it on the 19th second. What is going on in that frame? You only need to look at the first 20 seconds. The rest is pretty hard to watch.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
{As if the DOD doesn’t have secure off-site storage of everything.}


Well you know, they did have all those video cameras on the side that was plowed into, and they said those didn't capture anything, so I wouldn't be so sure about off-site storage for their accounting files.

And yeah, $1.2T, now even to me that would mean something.


So why the crazy approach? Just showing off?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
I think I figured it out. Its a crazy angle and the north tower, which was hit first, is lined up with the south tower making it look like one building. If you scroll up you can see pictures that help understand that.

But it sure looks like the building is on fire and then something hits it. Weirdness.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
John, I had to watch that a few times, a lot happens in the 19th second.

But yes, it certainly looks weird when the plane hits the building. If you freeze it just right, [it appears] there are no wings. And when it enters the building, there are no outlines of the wings in the building.



I once found this wild video that claimed all sorts of graphic manipulation was done to make it look like planes hit the buildings. I don't give those ideas much credence.

However, part of the video showed all the different news networks, here and abroad, with anchors talking live about what was going on. The weird thing is they all had the same back drop, even through they were obviously standing in different locations. The implication was that all news networks were using a feed that was given to them. Hard to explain, and I've not been able to find the video again.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
What was weirder to me was that it looks like one building, and that the building is already on fire when it is hit.

If you full screen it and scroll back and forth between 19 and 22 seconds and can see that it is two buildings. It weirded me out there for a minute.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 09:43pm PT
You guys will not take a stab at my posed questions?

And yet you continue the side-dilemmas....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 09:43pm PT

He came back,
This time for me.
On the 110th floor I was so close to God
I could almost grab his beard.
Never before has heaven been this close to hell.
I can feel its fire on the floors below
Raising ash and paper and smoke
Thick as Satan's laughter.
At the window, shattered,
I look for salvation and he tempts me,
Dares me to jump,
Whispering a psalm in my ear
He spits as he speaks:
"He will bid his angels watch over you.
With their hands they will support you."
I mumble "Amen,"
Close my eyes and sense the rush of air.
I cannot breathe until I finally feel
Those hands of angels
Hard as cement against my face.

by Doug Seubert





Yeah, that video was, um, indescribable. Brings it right home.


I remember watching a documentary on The Photo, and what it took to print it.


John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
Blue.. I have no Idea why they would use a missile against the pentagon after the world trade centers were hit. Lots of stuff doesn't add up to me.

I still haven't seen anything disproving the claims for thermite. Nor have I been able to fully accept that 3 buildings collapsed in just a few hours.

Nor can I explain why Bush, or was it Condi, would say that no one expected terrorist to use large planes, when that subject had been discussed numerous times.

Nor can I explain why the airplane doors weren't hardened 40 years ago when they first started contemplating terrorist using large planes. Though I imagine the bean counters played a role in that.

cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Aug 31, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 10:09pm PT
I still haven't seen anything disproving the claims for thermite. Nor have I been able to fully accept that 3 buildings collapsed in just a few hours.

They were hit by airplanes flying at maximum speeds will full fuel tanks!

But you're more willing to accept Spec Ops guys went in an rigged it so we could have a ME war?

Can you disprove the video of the Angry Arabs getting on the planes. Them taking 'landing' lessons in flight schools? Of KSM bragging that he came up with the plot after cutting off Danny Pearls head?

ReallY????

You people are sick.

EDIT: Riley, I agree with Rick in yer video. The chic questioner is the moron making a stupid argument.


Rock on, Santorum.

Anal grease Santorum arguing about gays.
And this is going to be the level of discourse??? You idiots claim to be sensitive, inclusive, and intellectually superior, and this is the level of discourse? Feces coupled with lube is the definition of Santorum?

We are doomed as a culture...
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
Pretty funny Cintune.



I miss my friend.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
But you're more willing to accept Spec Ops guys went in an rigged it so we could have a ME war?

No Blue, I'm just wondering why a scientist was able to find traces of thermite. Thats all. I would like that disproved. but it appears our government didn't look for explosives. I'm wondering why they can't be bothered to disprove this. It shouldn't be that hard to test the samples people have saved.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
Funny how WAPO, NYT, WSJ, CNN, etc. won't touch this sh#t with a ten foot pole, though it would be the story of the century if any of it was half true...
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 11:43pm PT
You mean like WOS???

Now there is a real problem.

Why is it that if you have doubts about things, then you are lumped in with every crazy theory that there is? Kind of like if you didn't like WOS, then you must have been a shitter or a Christian hater. Or if you defend any aspect of the first ascent team, then you must be a Loverboy, drilling fool.

A seemingly respectable scientist says he found traces of thermite. Why is it wrong to ask about this? Do you think our government isn't capable of some really shitty things?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
I'm with ya on this one, coz!

But otherwise, you suck....hehe....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:01am PT
The problem is that if one tiny thread unravels in the story, then the major cracks start to appear. All there has to be is one, and the game is on.


Hmm, no major news networks picking up on this, not hard to figure out why.


NWO has a good one.

Will somebody please try to explain the explosions these NYFD guys experienced?

Or will you just ignore them and brush them off as being on some nutty 2nd-rate blog.


http://www.infowars.com/video-911-firefighters-reveal-huge-explosions-before-towers-collapsed/


Don't forget, these are the very guys who put their lives in danger to save the folks in those buildings.

(Gosh, wonder why they're not invited to the 10th anniversary Ground Zero ceremony. Do you think the NYPD will keep them away, or the Special Forces?)
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:03am PT
John, how many building have traces of thermite?

Coz, you're being pretty sarcastic here, with the midgets and all.

Go upstream a bit, I posted a link to a video more than once that shows just who did unofficial tests on the WTC dust.

What we're looking for is official and verifiable tests.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:13am PT
I'm just asking about the finding of thermite and if anyone has a link to someone disproving this. Thats all.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:15am PT
Sorry coz, sarcasm is good, and I'm usually full of it. But I just watched that video about the jumpers and it put me in a bit of a sour mood.


You got the thermite story down, care to take a swipe at those firefighters and the explosions they experienced?



EDIT: John, nobody touches the thermite story.
They have no cover for that.



BREAKING: The OP video has been taken down by YouTube.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:22am PT
If I was to play Warblers game, I could come up with a far fetched, but sort of plausible way to put thermite in the buildings without most folks knowing, except the head of the security.

The towers were built with the main supports beams in the center. That is where the elevators ran. If you had access to the elevators, and could shut them down as you needed to, then you could place charges. You could even wire them, though wireless exists.


And as for why would any military person send a missle towards the pentagon. Its all done by computers now. Drones can be flown offsite. It would be relatively easy for someone to make a drone pilot think they are practicing on another target, while really they are flying it into the pentagon. Its all just computers.

Much like our voting system can be hacked.

All you need is access and a few people willing to do that kind of work. You could even conveniently kill them after they do the work and leave only a few alive who know about it.

Maybe I read too many crazy novels, or maybe I have read too much about even crazier things our government has done. What was that about hijacking planes, or shooting them down so that we could attack cuba? Anyone remember what that was?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:26am PT
this is a very strange period in history

as the bright spotlight of the internet shines around the chaotic landscape

on of the few things that it is possible to be sure about is that all our sources of information are so heavily contaminated with lies...

that it is almost impossible to discern the real truth about many important events

every time a glimmer of truth appears about anything important

a torrent of roughly similar lies appears to dilute that glimmer of truth
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:29am PT
That's because, dirtbag, all of the media outlets you listed, are owned by the same corporate interests. Do you not ask yourself *why* all mainstream media reports are the same?

dirtbag's biggest secret? He doesn't climb....period.

I wouldn't be surprised if he were a government op. He does seem to shadow, then slam my every post, or any others who question the status quo.

dirtbag? What say you?
Yeah, I know.....BOO!
Weak.

LOL...your post responded to me, not the other way around. And you accuse me of stalking?

Yep, I climb. Not often anymore, but occasionally.

Moreover...all major news outlets are owned by the same corp interests? ALL hundreds of them? Really? Are they all in cahoots? ALL are willing to forego a shitload of $$$$ from cracking the biggest story of the century? So thousands of organizations and people...the NYPD, the miltary, the executive branch, the NYFD, etc., planned this massive. coordinated attack, and not person out of thousands involved has come forward and fessed up after 10 years? Not one?

Dude....to put it charitably, you seem like a nice enough guy but you have a rather tenuous grip on reality. I find this sh#t mildly entertaining on one level but on another, it's actually sad that people have created this fantasy land version of reality and live in fear of some vague boogeyman.

BOO! backatcha.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:30am PT
a torrent of roughly similar lies appears to dilute that glimmer of truth

Yep..

Plus with the anniversary coming up, I keep remembering my friend. I wrote this on another thread, but I will post it here.

My buddy Darren Bohan was on the 102 floor of building number two, the South tower. I wrote on the other thread that he was in the north tower, but that was a mistake. A coworker says he stayed behind to help his supervisor make certain the offices were evacuated. I posted this on the other thread and will post it here now.

Darren Bohan 9/--/1966 - 9/11/2001

Darren was working on the 102 floor of the South tower. One of his coworkers said he stayed behind to help his supervisor make certain that everyone got out. That was just like Darren. He wasn't going to leave anyone behind. Neither his supervisor or Darren got out.

Darren was one my first friends when I moved to Wawona. He loved the outdoors. He loved music and playing the guitar. He made an awesome New York pizza. He could juggle fire and tell jokes. We use to backpack, and hike and go to the river and play basketball. We learned to make beer together and drank many a six pack.

One time when we were playing one on one basketball, I kept beating him off the dribble to my left. I finally broke down and asked him why he didn't shade me to the left because that was the only move I had. He said " John, I know thats the only move you got. You are such a lousy player that if I shaded you to the left you would never score on me, and thats no fun. So I play you straight up and its a challenge to try to stop you, so the game is fun for both of us".

I laughed my ass off at that. That is just the way Darren was. He liked for everyone to have fun.

One summer I dropped him off in Mammoth so he could hike over the Sierra to Wawona. He was wearing cheap tennis shoes. I knew he had a penchant for going off trail so I worried about him and asked him about his shoes. He was always broke because he spent his money on beer and music. He said he would be alright as he had a roll of duct tape. He was back 2 weeks later and sure enough, his shoes were held together with duct tape. He had a big ol grin on his face and was the happiest I had seen him in awhile as his girlfriend had broken up with him the month before. Give him a fishing pole and 2 weeks in the woods and he was a happy man.

I still miss him.

See you on the other side Darren.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2011 - 12:40am PT
So thousands of organizations and people...the NYPD, the miltary, the executive branch, the NYFD, etc., planned this massive. coordinated attack,

Nobody with half a brain ever propagated this kind of bullsh'it.

Dirtbag you must have less then half a brain.

Tom Cochrane gave much closer to the truth ......
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:42am PT
Oh really Werner? The kind of conspiracy you guys insist upon would require that kind of manpower. At a minimum.

And NWO, those guys weren't the perps.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:43am PT
AND btw, Alex jones is making a fortune off of this horsesh#t.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2011 - 12:47am PT
The kind of conspiracy you guys insist upon would require that kind of manpower. At a minimum.


So now you're all expert on conspiracy.

Now you're all expert on how it's done.

You're more whacked than the so called conspiracy nuts ...
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:50am PT
Oh really Werner? The kind of conspiracy you guys insist upon would require that kind of manpower. At a minimum.

You don't seem to be paying attention. It wouldn't require that many people. A half dozen people in the upper echelons. Plus if the wiring of the buildings was done over a period of time, it would only take a few guys to do that.

Bush's brother to gain access to the twin towers.
Cheney to schedule the military games and keep the fighters on the ground.
A few ops to set the charges.
Someone to write the computer programs and infect the proper computers.
Whoever was in the CIA who discovered the plot to begin with.

And no one else would have to know. Our role could be minimal. I might be missing one or two, but that seems to mostly cover it.


Since the NIST's own report says it didn't test for explosives in any of the buildings.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:52am PT
They weren't the perps NWO...


So now you're all expert on conspiracy.

Now you're all expert on how it's done.

You're more whacked than the so called conspiracy nuts ...

You guys are coming up with the fancy fantasies, not me.

I keep hearing about how the military, the MSM, NYPD, NYFD, etc are involved. That sounds like thousands of people to me. I'm not coming up with this sh#t, other people are. I'm just trying to add it all up.


dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:53am PT

You don't seem to be paying attention. It wouldn't require that many people. A half dozen people in the upper echelons. Plus if the wiring of the buildings was done over a period of time, it would only take a few guys to do that.


Nonsense.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:54am PT
And Al Gore is making a fortune (how many homes does he own? I don't suspect he flies commercial?) pushing his climate change info. Your point?

Well, there's a lot of science backing up global warming. But that's another topic.

but you think they are all part of some kind of weird NWO scheme too. Like I said, you have a tenuous grip on reality.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:55am PT
oops.. forgot about the missing plane. Don't know how to take that out without involving a few more people.

And I'm not saying anything I proposed is what happened. I just want to know if a scientist really did find thermite.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:56am PT
Yeah, there's thosee missing planes with all the missing people who got on board those missing planes.

But that's another layer of the cake.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2011 - 12:57am PT
No dirtbag no no no

You made up the fantasy and projected it onto people.

It doesn't take much to put your foot in your mouth ....
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:00am PT
Only one missing plane, if you believe a missile hit the pentagon. Of course I know about the theories about the twin towers being hit by military drones. But that doesn't have to have happened.

I think I could figure out a way to get rid of the one plane. But I would have to think about it.

Your argument Dirtbag, was that it had to involve lots and lots of people. I'm just showing how it could be done with a whole lot fewer people then most folks realize. I'm not saying that this happened.

I just want to know if anyone disproved the thermite, since the NIST says they didn't test for explosives, even though it was a 3 year study and they knew some people thought it might be explosives. Seems kind of shoddy work to me.

It seems like they latched onto one theory, and ignored all else. Some criminal detectives would tell you that is shoddy work. A friend of mine was a homicide detective in Los Angeles county for 25 years.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:01am PT
No dirtbag no no no

You made up the fantasy and projected it onto people.

It doesn't take much to put your foot in your mouth ....

Now what are you babbling about?

I didn't make this sh#t up.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:04am PT
IF a missile hit the Pentagon, there's only one missing plane, db.

IF?

Look it up. There are obituaries and interviews with the families of those missing on the planes.

Or are they in on it too?



Whatever. I'm done for the night.

Fantasies are fun to entertain, but reality is nice too.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:05am PT
He's soon to go in for a vasectomy.

You don't have to go there. Dirtbag is a good guy.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:11am PT
Ouch.. geez Warbler.. you should write novels.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:15am PT
But then you would have to install remote controls on those plane and that would involve more people. Because you wouldn't install remote control on just one plane, you would do it on all of them.

Its getting too weird to think about.

Good night everyone.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:29am PT
Presumably conspiracy theorists aren't allowed to use Occam's Razor, because they'd probably cut themselves. The likelihood of personal harm outweighs their being allowed to indulge their fantasies in public.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:31am PT
And yet conspiracies have happened.


Funny how that works.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:36am PT
keep your life simple

everything is just fine

believe all the official news

go to work in the morning

eat processed food

take all your prescribed pills

pay your bills

pay your taxes

trust your government

watch TV until you pass out
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:43am PT
So gas everyone, put the plane on autopilot and fly it that way.. hmmm. Don't know if that would work, but there are sites that say autopilot cna fly an entire flight plan.

So why not fly the plane into the pentagon if you control it?

Maybe the controls didn't work exactly and they sent it out over the sea, but then air traffic control would have noticed that.

To work, it really can't have a lot of people involved.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:58am PT
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/American_Airlines_Flight_77_Timeline

This site says the transponder was turned off. But still, why not fly it into the pentagon?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:11am PT
We need Tom Clancy to finish this story. Too much going on for me to buy it.

I don't know how to explain it, but it seems more likely a plane hit the pentagon.

If they planned to use planes, and two of them failed, and they used a missile, then they would have had to have plans to use a missile as a backup. thats a lot of extra planning and work for a just in case the planes don't work.

Especially if there were no passengers by then.

I dont' understand what you mean. why wouldn't there be passengers. They would have been gassed.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:25am PT
How do I have to write this stuff, then five minutes later write it again?

Because sometimes you get too intense and I have to ignore you. Plus I really haven't read this whole thread. Just felt like jumping in tonight.

And no.. I hadn't heard about the passenger list.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:26am PT
I'll repeat myself:


The video in the OP has been taken down by YouTube.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:29am PT
I wonder why.. I never really looked that close at it because it was just too fuzzy and I don't trust much of this. I prefer information that has been researched by more then a few people because this whole thing is crazy.
jiff

Ice climber
colorado
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:32am PT
post 666
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:32am PT
Holy cow, that Flight 77 passenger list!

I wonder if they're all getting Brazilians right now.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:36am PT
Its surprising how few passengers, but not that surprising at the passenger manifest. Its washington. Thats all they do there.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:39am PT
A LOT of CIA spies and weapons designers and military scientists were on that plane.

You can't be serious? Really. That's should be as gross an insult to your intelligence as it is to the folks aboard the flight. It's moronic statements like that one which utterly destroy the credibility of conspiracy theorists.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:59am PT
I'm just telling you the way it is Rox. Lots of people tune you out at different times because you write a lot. Heck, karl is one of my best friends and when he gets on a tear, I sometimes tune him out. Meaning I don't read everything he writes. Mostly because I already know what he is going to say, but also because I'm not that interested in the subject.

It has nothing to do with whether I am weak sauce or not. Maybe I am, But getting upset with me because I don't hang on every word you write is also kind of weak sauce. This isn't a classroom and I'm not here to take a test.

Plus this thread is on a topic that has so much disinformation that I don't follow it that much anymore. The video wasn't that good and so much of this thread is a rehash. You may be intensely interested, but that doesn't mean I have to be.

Plus I'm dealing with a deep infection that has me feeling exhausted most days. So my focus isn't the best.

Its just the way it is. You asked why you keep having to repost things, and I'm telling you. These threads are long and I dont' follow them every day.


John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 03:08am PT
Thanks Riley. I will look at it tomorrow. I'm not really that concerned about flight 77. I mainly showed up tonight because I'm interested in the scientist who said there was thermite, and Cleo said it was paint. I want to know if the thermite has been dissproven.

Then I got caught up in splaining how it would be possible to do some of this stuff, simply as a mental exercise and because I like figuring out stuff like that, and Warbler has some interesting ideas. I didnt' really buy the video that started this thread. Nor have I followed it that closely.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 10:45am PT
Riley,
I haven't read all your links, I'll try when I get some free time.

But, I don't see how they can discount the claim that residue of thermite was found, without testing for thermite!


Also, have you seen any source debunk the reports of explosions within all three of the WTC building that fell?

That is very important, you know.



Call me a nut, but I find it very telling that the OP video was taken down. Although fuzzy, the video of a missile was pretty darn convincing.

And the photos of the missile painted up as a AA plane, also looked real to me. But I'm not expert in photo analysis--like the crusty old general who served for many years as a top-ranking officer in the Military.
monolith

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 11:56am PT
Explosives and Thermite now is the claim. Fantastico!
monolith

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
Just trying to see what the claim is Rox. So it's three buildings packed with explosives and thermite. Two of which are to be hit by airplanes, and the third is to be hit by a collapsing building, but the explosives don't go off for a few hours. Got it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
Edit: So Healy, I see something wrong with your list of the people who were on the flight. Why don't they list the four hijackers as being on board? Not a mention.

Are you utterly impaired? It's a list of the victims of the crime.
Gene

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
Is this the 'missing' video from the OP?

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/44286/NEW_9_11_VIDEO_MISSILE_STRIKE_PENTAGON/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
No Gene, that is not the video from the OP.

Here's a very interesting site on the timeline associated with 9-11:

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&timeperiod=1:00am%20Sept%2011%202001

It would take hours to go through this, I just posted the page for the day itself.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
How many times do you have to hear "Wait, now get this," before you say "Now wait a minute?"


Here's a list of some of the things that can't be debunked. Some of these just make me shake my head in disbelief.



Wait, now get this:
Condoleezza Rice denies knowing anything about using planes as missiles, although she had a report, "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States" -- in which, Rice admitted, references to earlier warnings of al Qaeda plans to hijack passenger airliners.


Wait, now get this:
They find Atta's passport in the NY street shortly after his plane hit the WTC tower.


Wait, now get this:
Three modern steel buildings fall to the ground, in their footprints, at nearly free-fall speed.


Wait, now get this:
The Official Story claims that WTC Bld 7 was felled by small office furniture fires.


Wait, now get this:
Multiple eye witnesses describe large explosions in the basement and lobbies of all the buildings shortly before they collapsed.


Wait, now get this:
A pilot with no jet training makes a very impressive 270-degree arching dive to precisely hit the Pentagon, even though a much easier flight path would have been sufficient to hit the target.


Wait, now get this:
There no wing or tail marks in the facade of the Pentagon where it was hit.


Wait, now get this:
The Official Story says the 757 at the Pentagon disintegrated upon impact, yet it was still able to punch clean holes through six 18" steel-reinforced concrete walls.


Wait, now get this:
The wall hit at the Pentagon was lined with security cameras, yet the Pentagon claims there is no footage of the jet impacting the building from these cameras.


Wait, now get this:
Many reports say people were forewarned of the attacks before they happened.


Wait, now get this:
Very soon after the attacks, the WH administration produced a long and detailed Patriot Act, which rescinded many civil rights from the people of the United States.


Wait, now get this:
The attacks were uses as a pretext to go to war with Iraq, even though there has been no linkage between the attacks and Iraq.


Wait, now get this:
An independent group tests the dust from the collapsed WTC buildings, and finds evidence of thremite, yet no official agency tasked with investigating 9-11 will administer a test for explosives.


Wait, now get this:
Secretary of Transportation Mineta testifies that Cheney seemed to give questionable orders about the hijacked plane approaching Pentagon.


Wait, now get this:
Very shortly after the attacks, the FBI listed all the hijackers and described how they carried out their plan.


Wait, now get this:
Several of the named hijackers turned up alive in different countries after 9-11.


Wait, now get this:
The tape of Bin Laden claiming responsibility for the attacks shows a man who is obviously not Bin Laden.




This, of course, is just a small list of the incredible things you have to swallow in order to believe the Official Story. I could go on and on, with each new addition being verifiable, and each one as incredibly hard to believe has the one preceding it.

At what point do *you* say "Now wait a minute?"
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
The passenger list of the Pentagon flight had lots of CIA folks on it?

Actually if I trust that list, it looks exactly like what I would expect an DC to LA flight to look like. My dad worked for an aerospace company and flew that route frequently. There are tons of aerospace and military contractors in LA, so I'd expect those type of folks to be frequently flying back and forth to DC.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2011 - 09:18pm PT
All the spineless homo media outlets like CNN NYT FOX etc. will never tell the truth.

All the sheep read theses sites ......
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 1, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
What do we know:


Absolute fore knowledge that an attack was going to be done and on the WTC towers. We knew they were going to use aircraft to do so.


From before . . .


They "TPTB" knew what was going to happen and they used it to their advantage to accomplish what they wanted: LIHOP

Also they "TPTB" knew what they had to do to make it happen: MIHOP


**Eric Rockefeller revealed to Aaron Russo what the NWO wants and that something big was going to happen to be the pretext to go war and invade Afghanistan and Iraq before 9-11-2001.


**Lt. Mike Vreeland from the Pentagon revealed while jailed in Canada that 9-11-2001 would occur and what the events would be. He wrote this down and sealed it in an envelope and gave it to the Canadian authorities. They opened it after 9-11-2001 occurred. This has been verified in Canadian court.


**Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer reveals that US intelligence knew very specifically that the WTC towers would be attacked by aircraft before 9-11-2001 and she shares all the specific details and more. She was held in prison for 5 years by our US government on a Texas military base in attempts to silence her.



All of this verifies LIHOP and MIHOP.




Eric Rockefeller Reveals 9/11 FRAUD to Aaron Russo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA&feature=related



A White Knight Talking Backwards
SPY CASE IN CANADIAN COURTS SUGGESTS US NAVAL OFFICER HAD FOREKNOWLEDGE OF 9-11
by Michael C. Ruppert, Author of Crossing The Rubicon
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_25_02_revised_012802_vreeland.html
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_28_02_vreeland.jpg



Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1OW7b-oug

Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq [Paperback]
Susan Lindauer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Prejudice-Terrifying-Story-Patriot/dp/1453642757



Extreme Prejudice / Clear Evidence Of 9/11 Cover Up
By Allen L Roland (about the author)
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Extreme-Prejudice--Clear-by-Allen-L-Roland-110105-991.html


http://extremeprejudiceusa.wordpress.com/


"Spies Knew"




Cont. on what we know:


Richard Clarke admits that the CIA purposefully withheld information from other intelligence agencies concerning all involved in the 9-11-2001 plot involving "terrorists." They had a great amount of information/intelligence that they purposefully did not share with other agencies.


Considerable means, motive, and opportunity evidence exists that 9-11-2001 was planned and used as a pretext for endless war on "Terror," war-profiteering, and to radically weaken or eradicate our Constitution and our Civil Rights. Remember, PNAC needed "A New Pearl Harbor" to do and to achieve what they have been able to do since 9-11-2001.


If you can't believe that our government can do this, look at the history of false-flags that the US government has carried out. Read and know the details of "Operation Northwoods" to know this truth. In that plan they discussed in detail using false-flag hijackings, using remote aircraft, and killing of our own citizens/soldiers/people, and much more immoral and heinous crimes to take the US into war against Cuba.


Many federal agencies practiced emergency procedures and scenarios for just such a large scale terrorist attack such as 9-11.


Even the Pentagon practiced wargames with aircraft attacking the Pentagon prior to 9-11-2001.


We have Condi et al. saying "we couldn't imagine they would use aircraft as missiles." That is 100% USDA Bull Dung.


We also know that there where many wargames on 9-11-2001, 15+ or more.


Evidence that NORAD was given a stand down order after the attacks on 9-11-2001 began.


Many physical evidences show that the laws of Physics were suspended on 9-11-2001 if the OCT is held-up as true as told in the 9-11 Commission Report, for all 3 WTC towers to fall as they did due only to the 2 aircrafts slamming into them.


An incredible amount of physical evidence and eye-witness reports are ignored concerning demolition of all 3 WTC towers.


The absolute physical evidence of nano-superthermite found in the dust of all 3 WTC towers.


The physical evidence fits the fact that something other than a 757 slams into the Pentagon. The evidence that explosives were used is considerable.




The means, motive, and opportunity, and the physical evidence for LIHOP and MIHOP is fairly overwhelming. The OCT has been invalidated time and time again.

A new thorough and complete investigation of 9-11-2001 by an open and honest international community or commission must be done.

Re-investigate 9-11 now.










ericulner

climber
Southern Illinois