Video of Missile Hitting the Pentagon?

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WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 26, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
A newly released video supposedly containing footage from 9/11 shows a cruise missile, painted to look like a small American Airlines plane, and other footage of a missile hitting the Pentagon. The footage of the missile striking the building also apparently shows an illuminated laser spot on the wall of the Pentagon into which the missile strikes, exactly like we see in the World Trade Center videos. Although the video may very well be fake, partly or completely, if it is genuine it would only further disprove the government version of what happened at the Pentagon.


Where's Klimmer and Rocky?

REAL OR DISINFO?

http://www.bollyn.com/video-of-missile-hitting-the-pentagon
Gene

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
If it were a cruise missle, where's AA Flight 77?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
hahahahah, cruise missiles don't use laser illumination to hit the target. They use GPS and their own internal guidance systems.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
If it were a cruise missile, where's AA Flight 77?

That's one question the "missile hit the pentagon" crowd always avoid.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
That's not the Pentagon.


That's Stonehenge.


As Werner might say, fukking wankers.
Watusi

Social climber
Newport, OR
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
Yeah and there was no wreckage to be found of an immense airliner...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
I heard that it was a drug-laden Lockheed Lodestar that was radio controlled by rogue elements of YOSAR. The purpose was to divert attention away from the Wings of Steel controversy. Werner, can you confirm or deny that there was a secret meeting in one of the YOSAR tent cabins at Camp 4 on the evening on September 10, 2001 where the attack was planned?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
One thing is for sure, no 757 hit the Pentagon on 9-11-2001.

Even the official video that they did release shows something else hit the Pentagon and not UA flight 77.


Is this video real? I have no idea. Funny this comes out just before the 10 year anniversary of the biggest false-flag operation in all history.


Release all of the video that was confiscated by the FBI and we can see for ourselves what really happened. But as it stands now the OCT has been invalidated time and time again. We know it didn't go down as they say it did.

Investigate 9-11 completely.


Edit:

By the way, we don't have to prove what happened to flight 77, only that it didn't hit the Pentagon. That has been done many times. The OCT is 100% USDA Bovine Dung. It has been invalidated time and time again. That is how science works. That is how forensic science works. We can invalidate the OCT and we have.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
Roxjox, that's a lie. You know that Lockheed Lodestars do not have jet turbine engines.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
the 10 year anniversary of the biggest false-flag operation in all history.

Only YOSAR would have the technical expertise to pull off an operation that big and get away with it.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
werner,

that video clearly shows Elvis riding the missile into the Pentagon...but his body was never found.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
Sheep wankers and graniteclimber leg humper

Just the fact that they showed some hundreds of videos on the web of planes or whatever hitting the trade center and NEVER releasing the videos from the cameras at and around the pentagon except some frames with missing frames from one camera shows deception.

If you and they are so sure it was an airliner hitting the pentagon then those videos would have been available for years to collaborate what the govt. claimed.

But of course .... modern science does not seek the truth.

Just theorizes endlessly like internet wankers.

This is why all you sheep have been owned.

Watch em get mad now Heh heh
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
Props to Werner for stating his proposition as a question. At least he has an open mind.

One thing is for sure, no 757 hit the Pentagon on 9-11-2001.

More drivel from the clueless. Remember, its the same guy who believes in Aliens and a Space Ship on the Moon.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:26pm PT

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
I don't know what it is, but I have a hard time when morons, who think they have all the answers, spew their B.S. It gets me riled up.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
Always a classic to watch . . .

You know it really is very simple. It did not happen as they said it did.

The OCT is laughable bunk.

Pentagonstrike:
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
Freudian slip TRUTH oooooppppsssiiiieeeesss:


http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=10875

Former 9/11 Commissioner admits missile hit the Pentagon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUmr9dFbf2c&feature=player_embedded

Rumsfeld admits missile in pentagon !!
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=141472

WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
Modern science --- hypothesis, theory and experiment.

Sheep -- hypothesis, theory and no experiment.

Fly the fuking airliner into a replica of the pentagon wall in the exact same speed and pattern you say it's possible or else STFU.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
By your definition, Werner, Klimmer is a sheep. He's done no experimentation.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
What we were shown officially:



Where's the 757? Where is UA flight 77?




What we should have seen, but didn't because it didn't happen. (Not this is CGI, not real, of what we should have seen if it went down like they said it did.)


Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
what we should have seen, but didn't because it didn't happen. (Not this is CGI, not real, of what we should have seen if it went down like they said it did.)re

How do you know what we should have seen? YOU'RE NOT AN EXPERT no matter how much you pretend to be.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
The laughter, but how DO you account for a 16 foot hole and a 160 foot aitliner with two massive solid turbine engine outriggers on the strongest member of the airliner?


Uh?

A 757 has a cabin width of 11'6"

Both engines were found. There's a photo of a Rolls Royce compressor hub laying on the ground in the link.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:05pm PT











Gee, where'd the massive jet go?

How did it get through that small hole?

Wow, solid really does go through solid. Just look at those intact windows where the massive towering tail stabalizer would have gone through. Miracles do happpen!!!!!


Anyone for a round of Golf on The Pentalawn?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
What more than likely did really go down on 9-11-2001:





















Can you say massive false-flag for a pretext to endless war and war profiteering?

Sure you can.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
Here is some convincing evidence that a plane "did" hit the pentagon.
I have not researched this issue a lot, but this site seams pretty legit.
Does anyone here know if the family members of the people that were on this plane have said anything to suggest this did not happen. I would assume that it would be pretty hard to fake the death of all these people. Also the sister of the pilot who flew this plane has spoken out. Is she a fake, made up by the conspirators.
There is convincing evidence on both sides though.
I've seen the videos out there of test planes hitting concrete walls and those planes get completely disintegrated, it is not surprising to me that there are few plane parts found. The following sites show some good photographs of the destruction and evidence of plane parts.
I'm still trying to make up my mind on this one.


http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html
http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm
Edwardmw

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
It would be very easy to create what looks like the missile in this video in Adobe after effects or 3ds Max. Very basic special effects.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
Hey, it's got snarling photos of Rumsfield and Chenney.

IT MUST BE TRUE!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
I agree that the new video floating around of a missile like object could very well be faked. Many cross comparisons with the official video released, time of day, shadows, and looking at the imagery frame by frame has to be done. It could very well be fake.



Hadn't seen this video before today. This guy seems to poke really good holes into the official video that was released from the Pentagon. Things I hadn't considered before . . .


911 Pentagon Footage Fraud - See the MISSING FOOTAGE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnzh-EyxKwc&feature=watch_response_rev
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
Hawkeye is here all the time, wasn't he the guy with the important job?


yeah RJ, some of us are employed. but if you get your rox off being an unemployed, unpaid internet wanker, then more power to you you!
michaeld

Sport climber
Near Tahoe, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
I think we can all agree there is a huge lack of video evidence proving what ever hit the Pentagon, given it's "The Pentagon." You'd think they'd have the best video surveillance, CCTV's everywhere, infrared cameras facing every side of the Pentagon, ect.

But I wouldn't go as far as posting a video montage propaganda style with requiem for a dream playing.

Could of easily been a sophomore in high school's video editing class project.


What can ya do, keep bickering I suppose.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 04:18pm PT

Just googled "Pentagon plane witnesses" and have spent the last few minutes listening to the televised eyewitness accounts of several people who actually saw the aeroplane approach and then hit the Pentagon. They are being interviewed outside the burning building. That took me about five minutes in total.
Homer

Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
Aug 26, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
We have incomplete information. Let's do the reasonable thing and assume that we're right - call other people names for being, well, other people.

The "you individually" is the real illusion.

Carry on us.
OR

Trad climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
me laughing hard
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Aug 26, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
Nice Summary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue6PniAv0r8&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbhbXMfh6eQ&feature=relmfu

Video(s) Breakdown
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBHi9CbrNf4

Debris:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ea0_1193103631
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
Just googled "Pentagon plane witnesses" and have spent the last few minutes listening to the televised eyewitness accounts of several people who actually saw the aeroplane approach and then hit the Pentagon. They are being interviewed outside the burning building. That took me about five minutes in total. ]


Come on now!

Everyone knows they were hipmotizzzed!
















































graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 05:36pm PT
Co-conspirator Werner:
Just the fact that they showed some hundreds of videos on the web of planes or whatever hitting the trade center and NEVER releasing the videos from the cameras at and around the pentagon except some frames with missing frames from one camera shows deception.

They didn't show hundreds of videos of planes hitting the trade center. There are only small handful of videos that are shown hundreds of times. There is only one video of the first plane hitting and that was just luck. Then with everyone attention on the WTC after the first impact, the second plane hit - so more people saw that.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
Ive had the undesirable opportunity to be at about fifteen different airplane wrecks in the past. We went to a site where an f-111 went down on a rocky NV ridge once. The MAIN impact area was only about three feet wide by six feet long, accompanied by a debris field of scattered tiny pieces that went for about two hundred yards. The were NO wing strike markings or anything of that nature- the only thing for sure about high speed jet impacts is that there is nothing for sure.

Ron, please stop stepping on these fools' ignorant speculation with your experience and expertise.

I mean, so what if you have actual experience with FIFTEEN different airplane wrecks! You are pretending that facts and knowledge count for something.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
I heard that it was a drug-laden Lockheed Lodestar that was radio controlled by rogue elements of YOSAR. The purpose was to divert attention away from the Wings of Steel controversy. Werner, can you confirm or deny that there was a secret meeting in one of the YOSAR tent cabins at Camp 4 on the evening on September 10, 2001 where the attack was planned?


We're waiting.
ericulner

climber
Southern Illinois
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
Y'all are a bunch of goofballs. Do missiles also carry lots of luggage, clothing, shoes, passenger seats, and the occasional poor soul still buckled therein?

pfft Grow up.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
Some idiot has broken Werner's password for ST but is doing a piss poor job of impersonating our hero. Scandal.

Anyway the Boeing 757 is a rather small jet compared to 747.
see a side by side pic for scale
http://www.aviationspectator.com/image/photos/civil-aviation/boeing/boeing-707/boeing-707-28



as for the evidence.. identifiable jet turbine parts are tough and many survived the Pentagon attack.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
You can watch it for free and even copy it.

Flight Of American 77 (Full Video: 1:05hrs)
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/


Scroll down to the 8th news title and watch it, copy it. Full NSTB flight recording data completely contradicts The 9-11 Commission Report. The flight data recorder has flight 77 (or whatever it was??????) fully North of the Citgo gas station and too high and not even in the correct flight path to hit the 5 downed telephone poles. The NTSB released flight data recorder puts the jet exactly where the eye-witnesses who are incredibly reliable in full agreement. It did not approach the pentagon from the published OCT point of view. It could not have downed the light poles North of Citgo gas station where the jet was seen.

Something else did. Something that was smaller and flew very fast and low to the ground, that might have possibly knocked down the lightpoles. We aren't sure when the lightpoles got knocked down. They could have been down prior to the entire event occuring. Who knows????????? This is the object in the released Pentagon security video. It isn't UA flight 77.

The official released data already completely invalidates the OCT and they don't want to talk about it.

At least 2 seperate events happening at nearly the same exact time at the Pentagon. A massive jet fly-over from North of Citgo gas station and something else explosive coming in low from the South of the Citgo gas station.

The NTSB flight recorder data agrees with very reliable eye-witnesses North of the Citgo gas station, but completely contradicts the released Pentagon security video footage showing a fast moving object close to the ground and South of the Citgo gas station in line with knocking down light poles.



My hypothesis:
One was a slight of hand decoy, North of the Citgo gas station painted up as flight 77 and flew over The Pentagon as the explosion happened a moment before or after, and the other was something that slammed into The Pentagon that exploded coming in low and fast South of the Citgo gas station. The public official evidence/data pretty much confirms this and really doesn't allow for much else.

One thing is for sure, the official evidence/data released contradicts itself completely, and renders the OCT invalidated. This has massive false-flag written all over it. They even used full-scale magician "slight of hand" techniques to distract our attention, and it worked to a point.

Investigate 9-11-2001 completely and honestly and do it now. The World is waiting for the truth because we know we've been lied to.








So you really think Arabs with box-cutter knives and Osama Bin Laden could have pulled this off? On a day that had over 15+ wargames going on? You really think they could have pulled this off and done all the fine-tune timing involved and getting our miltary defenses to stand-down?

I laugh.







And then I cry for our Country.



Sheeple. Wake the HADES UP!!!!!



Edit:


Like I said TGT. Wake up!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:29pm PT

Look into my eyes.................
Klimmer!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
If it were a cruise missle, where's AA Flight 77?

Evidence shows that a Boeing 757 did not hit the Pentagon. It's not up to the Official Story deniers to explain what happened to that flight, it's up to those that claim the Official Story to explain the evidence that we do have.

There is so much evidence contradicting the Official 9/11 story, it would make your head spin if you actually tried to resolve all the inaccuracies. For me, the most obvious point to pick is the Pentagon story.

Watch the first 30 minutes of this video and see if you can still reasonably claim that a Boeing 757 hit that building. Simply, there is no evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon:

In Plane Site
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
Klimmer - bet you did not know that the area around the Pentagon is protected by a GPS misinformation signal system that blankets the real signals from
the satellites.

That was the first thing the generals did in the Pentagon
when the GPS constellation was being launched. Duh!

Nobody wanted to make it easy for a UAV to follow GPS right into the
Pentagon. Unfortunately the 757 had a human on the stick.
Gene

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
Klimmer,

Help me out please. What does 'OCT' mean? Thanks.

g
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
Simply, there is no evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon:


BUAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
Simply, there is no evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon:

Except the people who saw it.....
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
But many many witnesses actually saw the plane hit the Pentagon. Did you even bother to look at the links provided just above? Klimmer's risible and desperate "simultaneous missile and plane attack" is pretty sad too.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
And the remnants of the plane, complete with seral numbers on the parts.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:48pm PT
CC,

Sorry. No go. The very reliable eye-witnesses put the jet seen just North of the Citgo gas station. The flight data recorder released by the NTSB for the supposed Flight 77 is in full exact agreement. And this can not be the path South of Citgo going through telephone poles shown in the Pentagon security video. They invalidate each other. The only way for both to be correct is that they happened nearly at the same time. Bingo.


Q: What International Airport is right next to The Pentagon? So all these jets are flying into Washington -- Reagan International, with hands on only because the Pentagon is scrambling their GPS signals?




I laugh.






And the remnants of the plane, complete with seral numbers on the parts.



I laugh again.

Those who want the truth have been begging for this kind of evidence forever. It is never given as it should be in any full aviation accident investigation done by the NSTB.

We don't have this evidence for 9-11-2001.




Edit:


OCT = Official Conspiracy Theory

. . . as set forth by the 9-11 Ommision Report. Oops. Mybad. The 9-11 Commission Debacle. Oooopsie again. Dang can't type today. The 9-11 Commision Re-do of Reality. Oh, I give up.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
Klimmer -your fantasies about 9/11 are incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial.

Learn a few simple things about RF, GPS, and airport ATC and you'll understand, but most of all learn about national security and start that conspiracy theory mind on the track of why
the Pentagon in not going to explain any of its defense systems to you
or the public.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
Did you even bother to look at the links provided just above?
    Jaytee

Come on Jaytee, admit it. You didn't look at my link, did you?

Serial number on the parts? hahahahahahahaha

Oh man, you guys will believe anything.






But many many witnesses actually saw the plane hit the Pentagon.

And Many Many people saw something OTHER THAN A PLANE hit the Pentagon.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
K-man

Well I haven't seen any interviews online yet with these mysterious many many you claim. I have however watched several tonight by very credible witnesses who had seen a large airliner crash into the Pentagon.

I have previously seen the wild-eyed gentleman who presents the link you attach such credence to, so didn't need to watch any more of his "research".

So you believe these witnesses are, an hour or so after having seen a large airliner crash into the Pentagon, planted as stooges by some mysterious overlord, for the TV companies' reporters to interview? Or are the reporters and witnesses both in the dark control of the Overlords? Or do you believe Klimmer's desperate last stand hypotheseis of simultaneous missile and plane attack?

WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 07:28pm PT
They haven't shown any of the videos yet.

Just one with a few frames with missing frames. Big ass red flag.

Even after congressional committees requesting them.

If a 757 flew into the pentagon and that's what they say then they'd release the video evidence.

They never do.

But they might release them when they finally get the software good enough where no one can tell the photo shop manipulations.

Instead all these idiot sheep believe them saying a 757 flew into it.

Modern science hypothesis, theory, experiment.

No real world experiment was ever done.

Thus .... hypothesis, theory and then speak all nonsense .....

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
I have previously seen the wild-eyed gentleman who presents the link you attach such credence to, so didn't need to watch any more of his "research".
    Jaytee



I'm trying to understand what your sentence means.

But, it's not "research" he is presenting, so to blow it off without watching it indicates to me that your mind is closed.


How about this: Why is the "official" video released of the Pentagon crash dated 9-12-2001?

I'm sure you have a good reason for that.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
They haven't shown any of the videos yet.

Just one with a few frames with missing frames. Big ass red flag.

Even after congressional committees requesting them.

The pictures that we have are not true video--they are from a crappy security camera that takes still pictures only every second or so. A second is a long time. If the plane was flying 500 mph it was traveling 733 feet per second. So its not surprising that the security camera missed it. To capture this, you want a high fps camera with a fast shutter speed.

Do we know that there are other pictures or videos that have not been released? Or is that speculation?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:38pm PT

Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:38pm PT
kman-

What I mean is what I said - I watched a whole programme of this mans 9-11 drivel a couple of years ago. I don't need to watch it again thanks. Can you now direct your attention to the interviews with people who an hour or so previously had seen a jet airliner crash into the Pentagon? It's not hard. Just do it.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:40pm PT
graniteclimber, the still frames that were released were dated Sept 12, 2001. For some reason, I find that odd.

Take a look at the link I posted, it shows the number of security cameras around the side of the Pentagon where the explosion occurred. Also, video was confiscated shortly after the event, even as folks were watching it.

But don't watch the link if you think you already know it all. Closed minds are useless.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
Jaytee, I have seen many videos of folks saying they saw a plane hit the Pentagon. Yes, I have watched them. I've also seen many of folks who claim that without a doubt, what they say was NOT a plane.

Have you read the accounts of the folks who were in the Pentagon when the explosion occurred?


(PS, your statement above did not convey that you'd previously watched the whole "In Plane Site" film, sorry for hounding you on that. From watching that, I think it's pretty clear that no plane laden with gasoline hit the building.)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
graniteclimber, the still frames that were released were dated Sept 12, 2001. For some reason, I find that odd.

There may be a couple explanation for that. Wrong date on computer with the computaters?

Take a look at the link I posted, it shows the number of security cameras around the side of the Pentagon where the explosion occurred. Also, video was confiscated shortly after the event, even as folks were watching it.

It WAS a national security event. I am not surprised at all.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
K-man

I'd be grateful for some links to these interviews you've seen. Thanks in advance.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
Why is the "official" video released of the Pentagon crash dated 9-12-2001

It's not. The date was added later at the same time as the "impact 1" "impact 2" etc. text was added. It's not a timestamp.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:55pm PT
http://911review.com/attack/pentagon/witnesses.html
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
k-man

Very poor K-man. You know exactly what I mean. Now post up some TV interviews with witnesses just as credible as the ones that have been provided for you above. You said you'd seen them. Many many of them.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
"The fuselage of a 757 did not open that 16-foot hole," Wittenberg said.

"The aluminum of the fuselage would have crumbled like an egg shell on impact.

Aluminum doesn't vaporize. There is no armor-piercing titanium on the tip of a 757,"


So when are you guys gonna fly that 757 into a replica wall of the pentagon?

Yeah right I hear ya .. "hypothesis, theory and then speak all nonsense .....

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
Is there any explanation why the people aboard the Pentagon flight are all missing?

Did Cheney kill them all, along with the plane???

Your guys' logic is flawed and very sketchy.

You people sooooo want to believe that Bush and Cheney killed people, and simultaneously discredit him for his dumbfounded look when alerted to the news, that your theories just hold no water.

And what about the crash gear on the ground? There were definitive plane parts found.

Why keep this sh#t up? You're all prolly the same people that call foul on Birthers too. Hypocritical?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
Walleye

When are you gonna come back to the valley and drive the tow truck again so we can talk sh'it at the gas pumps again?
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
If there was a conspiracy how come no one has spilled the beans yet?
The only thing we know for sure is how the govt used 911 to gain control and jack around with civil liberties.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
I'm not talking about no conspiracy.

I wanna know how this big ass plane could do what it did.

Are you gonna fly it thru that wall in that flight pattern?

Hypothesis, theory and then experiment, science!

Instead no experiment, and then speak all nonsense .....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
Jaytee, Sorry, from the page I provided above, you can find this:


http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/jetliner.html

I find this site to be very straight-forward in the information it provides. For instance, as this page shows, most eye-witnesses saw a 757 or 737 fly into the Pentagon, and it does a good analysis of those that don't believe a plane hit the building.

But, the site also poses the question of why the facade of the Pentagon did not get damage corresponding to such a plane hitting it. There was no damage where the tail should have hit. Why? Answer that question in a sensible manner, and I'll begin to sway my belief. However, as it stands, I cannot understand why there is no damage where there should be.


Bluey, if things made sense, then I'd stop wondering. But, as it stands there are Many things that don't make sense, and there are many contradictions in the Official Story. If you want to glaze over them, that's up to you.

Leaps of Faith required to believe the official story: http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/index.html

9-11 Anomalies: http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/anomalies.html

I'm not going to try to convince you that if it smells like a fish, that it's likely a fish. Read up and use your brain instead of believing what is fed to you by the powers that be.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
Are you gonna fly it thru that wall in that flight pattern?

Hypothesis, theory and then experiment, science!

Instead no experiment, and then speak all nonsense .....

Werner wants to run an experiment. He wants to take a 757, fill it with people and fly it into the Pentagon. Any volunteers? I already have Werner signed up but there are many other seats we need to fill.

We also need to buy a 757 so donations are appreciated.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 08:38pm PT
No I'm not gonna put anyone in it except you granite tool.

I'll fill the rest with dummies.

Obviously you're too stupid to even think of that.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
k-man

I just clicked on your link, but found no video of TV interviews with witnesses outside the burning Pentagon. I dont mean to be mean, and you've been very polite with me in your replies, but you did say you'd seen many interviews with witnesses who saw something other than a plane hit the Pentagon.
Even the links you have furnished only corroborate the version of events that common sense tells one is true i.e. that the witnesses to a huge jet airliner crashing into the Pentagon are very credible.

It seems open and shut to me.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
Werner, we're putting you in the cockpit.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
Jaytee, you can find many movies about 9-11 that show video of eye witnesses claiming that what they saw was not a commercial airliner. I'm not going to hunt them down, I'd have to watch Loose Change and pinpoint where in the movie you can find the footage. Also, I believe the "In Plane Site" link above has such footage.

That said, there is this (my emphasis):

Because of the absence of public evidence proving that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon and assertions that damage to the building and crash debris were inconsistent with the crash of such a large aircraft, speculation has flourished about what really hit the Pentagon on September 11th. Most such speculation ignores, discounts, or misrepresents the abundant eyewitness evidence that a jetliner flew into the building and exploded.

This quote is from: http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/attack/index.html

On the page, the quote above contains links that back up the claims that the "crash and debris were inconsistent with the crash of such a large aircraft," and more.

So, while it does appear that eye witnesses saw a large plane flying into the Pentagon, there are many questions that remain about what actually happened there.

Again, why no impact zone where the tail would have hit?

What happened to the tail?

Why do the Officials not release footage that would prove their claims?
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
k-man, just read the sentence you've underlined again a few times. Then again. Then think about it for a few more minutes. Get back to me when you've grasped what it's saying. You'll kick yourself, then will finally be able to move on.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
The following video and very reliable eye-witness testimony completely agrees with the Flight Data Recorder evidence that has been released by the NTSB regarding supposedly AA flight 77, which completely contradicts the OCT as put forth by the 9-11 Commission Report:


NATIONAL SECURITY ALERT - 9/11 PENTAGON ATTACK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5FhQc-LJ-o










The OCT is easily and completely debunked -- it is invalidated.

Investigate 9-11-2001
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
OK Jaytee, I do grasp what it says, that's why I underlined it (smartass).

My response: What happened to the tail?

Maybe once you grasp what this means, you'll begin to understand why I don't buy the official story.

And why you're such a fool for buying it.

I've provided links, you ignore them, what can I say.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
I wanna know how this big ass plane could do what it did.


Real simple physics.

1/2 MV Squared. / the area of the impact.

The same reason a marble size piece of copper can squirt thru a foot of armor plate steel like it was butter.

200,000lb airplane at 500 mph with a 16 ft diameter nose?

That's about 21-1/2 MILLION foot pounds of energy per square foot.

Also why about everything that went thru the hole was for the most part vaporized.

BTW the tail of a 757 is for the most part carbon fiber. Not that that matters much. There was enough energy to vaporize aluminum.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
K-man

The bodies of the poor unfortunates on that flight were spread over the building and identified painstakingly by DNA forensics. Google some information on that.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
This answers many of the questions.

The suppressed video of the attack has been leaked.

One thing for sure-- it was not an airplane!

http://youtu.be/9fLBl_7qL2E
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:03pm PT
TGT -- "Real simple physics."

Good.

When does the experiment start?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:04pm PT
You are all avoiding the question: Why no impact zone where the tail should have hit?

You are all so smart, this is such an easy question.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
When does the experiment start?

Are you volunteering for the left seat?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
The bodies of the poor unfortunates on that flight were spread over the building and identified painstakingly by DNA forensics. Google some information on that.

That's another one of Werner's mysteries. He's trying to figure out how "they" moved everyone from the BIG 757 into a tiny little cruise missile. His theory is that they used mass hallucination just like when they faked the moon landings. Everyone knows that the moon is really swiss cheese being flown around the world by a helicopter.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
k-man

What's with your obsession with the flimsy aluminium tail of the plane? Huge jet engines crashed into the Pentagon at over 500 miles an hour and caused enormous damage. Many peoples' bodies were identified over the following months. Many many people witnessed this happen. Those witnesses are online for you to see. All you've done is post up some half-assed conspiracy site that even you don't seem able to grasp the implications of. Have you read that sentence you underlined yet, and given it some thought?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
No

It's easy to do on a crash test sled rig into the replica pentagon reinforce walls with a plane full of dummies.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
This says it can't go that fast 500 mph but what do I know?

"757s don't go that fast. The airplane will just not do that," Russ Wittenberg, a retired pilot with United and Pan Am airlines, said.

"Its exceeding its air speed and mach speed limitations. The airplane just won't perform those maneuvers.

The mach limit for a 757 is about 360 knots at 23,000 feet," Wittenberg said."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
There's no reason to duplicate on a test sled what's been observed in hundreds of high angle of attack high speed aircraft crashes.

It's not called "Augering in" for nothing.

Just a small smokin hole is all that's left.

The 360K airspeed limitation takes into consideration things like turbulence, wind gust loading, bird strikes etc. It's a limit for prudent, safe operation. What the airframe is capable is way higher than that.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
The missle was largely constructed with authentic pieces of Noah's Ark and was funded, in part, by Michelle Bachmann. I know this to be true because i read it on the Internet.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
TGT

Modern science hypothesis, theory, experiment.

No experiment, then

You're blowing smoke .....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
You can see damage from the wings on both sides of the big hole left by the fuselage and tail section. The "small" and it's rally not that small round hole that the nuts like to point to was the exit hole on the other side, not the impact hole.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:17pm PT
The whole section had to be rebuilt.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:19pm PT
So those claims that it was a missile that was radio-controlled from the back of this car--don't believe them! It's a lie!


They were the only ones who had the technical expertise to pull off such large operation, but it wasn't them.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
Even the flight control personnel viewing on radar the approach to the Pentagon admitted AA flight 77 (supposedly) was doing maneuvers only a military aircraft could perform on 9-11-2001.

And the pilot couldn't even get a commercial airline license. He couldn't even fly a Cessna properly. The instructor had very grave concerns regarding his flying abilities, what he couldn't do, and what he was requesting to be able to do. Huge dichotomy and contradiction between his ability and his desire.

Even experienced 757 pilots say they couldn't do what he did.




But you guys want to keep beleiving in OCT fairy-tales. Sad. Really sad.
monolith

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
Why no impact zone where the tail should have hit?

er, um, the '16 foot' hole on the second floor, on top of the wide hole on the first floor?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:23pm PT
All you've done is post up some half-assed conspiracy site that even you don't seem able to grasp the implications of.
    Jaytee


You're an ass.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:23pm PT
He couldn't even fly a Cessna properly.

No kidding!1111 Helluva way to "land" an airplane!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
Why no impact zone where the tail should have hit?

er, um, the '16 foot' hole on the second floor, on top of the wide hole on the first floor?

Stop trying to confuse him with the facts!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
No experiment, then

You're blowing smoke .....

The experiment has been performed many times by no longer live subjects.

The weren't blowing smoke.

They just left behind a smoking hole.

And maybe a dog tag in a bootlace.

Do you know why aircrew commonly lace an extra dog tag into one of their boots?
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
Fiction.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
er, um, the '16 foot' hole on the second floor, on top of the wide hole on the first floor?

Funny, I haven't seen that in the many pictures I've looked at.
In fact, there is no 16' hole on the 2nd floor. Sorry.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
k-man

Sorry for offending you k-man but really, come on, this is such childish nonsense. You're not telling me you're in the same deluded world as Klimmer for God's sake?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
TGT

You're blowing smoke.

The experiment was not done.

The only thing being done is bullshiting ......
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
Has anyone mentioned that the outer Pentagon windows are all blast/bullet
resistant composite type stuff? Mounted in toughened frames that match the original double hung windows. Reason why so many are still intact close to the impact area.

And note the incredibly thick concrete walls and floors. The place was built to be a fort btw.

See this fort like construction, here exposed by the collapsed area.
The 60 year old reinforced concrete was strong enough to fend off a mid size jet like the 757. The fire is what caused the collapse after burning for awhile.

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/10.jpg
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
Jaytee and others,

If you don't see the inconsistencies in the Official Story, then you aren't looking. The lies there are as big as the hole in the Pentagon.

The site I posted takes a very objective view of the evidence, it discounts the fringe elements and focuses on the real anomalies. If you want to glaze over them, so be it. The Official Story is full of cover-ups. Close your eyes, you won't see them. But open your eyes, and you will be able to understand why so many people want the truth.

Out.

Leaps of Faith Required to Accept the Official Story

Anomalies of the September 11th Attack, Its Run-Up, and Response
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
They have the videos of whatever hit the pentagon but they won't release them even after congressional committees request them.

It's hidden under "National Security".

This raises a huge red flag and suspicion.

When ghetto boy goes to rob granny in the liquor store and Granny ends up beating the sh'it out of ghetto boy it's immediately all over the net as evidence.

monolith

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
Hilarious K-man, so ignorent. Pretty much everyone knows the '16-foot' hole was on the second floor, except you and Rox.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
Mono, how about a picture?
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:43pm PT
Werner

When witnesses to a huge jet flying into the Pentagon are interviewed outside it's smouldering hulk an hour later, that's all over the net too. There are links to them on this thread you've started.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
Jaytee

I said video.

I didn't mention any yapping by anyone.

Anyone can say anything .....
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
Dropping in here late without reading first, but "Loose Change" I believe was the name it... was a DVD that came out about 911 a few years ago. Good entertainment... I didn't see it as anything more than that, but I appreciated it as entertainment. Like the movie JFK... a truly great story and movie, IMO.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
you have to work backwards from facts everyone will acknowledge.

the pentagon and the rest of the heart of washington d.c. is the most protected airspace in the world. there was a lead time of about 40 minutes after the attacks in new york, plenty of time to scramble a horde of fighter jets from andrews afb. nothing--nothing, nothing, nothing--was up there to protect the nation's capital. ever wonder what you're paying all those taxes for, supporting that great high-tech aerospace/defense industry and the most expensive military in the world? on the one day it was supposed to be really doing its thing ...

then we have the complete lack of video evidence. this footage from chris bollyn is not particularly new or impressive. but just think about it for a minute. not only is the pentagon the most protected building in the world, but it's also the most monitored. the government releases nothing in the way of footage from any of its camera monitors. AND, according to all reports, the feebs rush out and confiscate security camera footage from the nearby hotel and gas station. what is there to hide? we can only conclude, plenty.

the CIT is a group of young fellows from orange county who, at their own expense and motivated by the highest patriotism, has made several trips to d.c., interviewing as many eyewitnesses as possible. they have pieced together a scenario which explains the pentagon evidence credibly. the government can't even come close.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:52pm PT








The 16 foot hole or so is split approx. between the 1st and 2nd floor. Perhaps a little more of the hole is on the 1st floor.

Where is the damage from the massive 40'+ tail stabalizer? Why are the windows still intact with foam on them from the fire-fighters? How does solid go thriugh solid?

Miracles happened on 9-11-2001 violating all the laws of physics that are known at this time. Amazing.

You guys really do believe in fairy-tales. Incredible.

Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
Werner

Yapping? Look at the interviews man. Try and find anybody interviewed at that time "yapping" about having seen a missile fly into the Pentagon. For God's sake man, it's just so insulting to the people who died on that plane. If you were joking it'd be in poor taste, but I get the feeling you get perverse pleasure out of this deeply offensive sh#t.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
Jaytee

Something seriously is wrong with you.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
Werner

What do you mean by that? You discount the credible eyewitness accounts available above for you to view, on a thread you started, and think I've got some problems?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:07pm PT
The flight of AA flight 77. Do we really know that it ever got close to the pentagon? No.

We known that the following phone call did not happen and could not happen the way the OCT said it happened. Massive lie.


From:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/


Could Barbara Olson Have Made Those Calls?
An Analysis of New Evidence about Onboard Phones

David Ray Griffin and Rob Balsamo
06/26/07 - Did AA 77---the flight that, according to the official conspiracy theory about 9/11, struck the Pentagon---have onboard phones? This question is relevant to the possible truth of the official theory, because Ted Olson, who was then the US Solicitor General, claimed that his wife, Barbara Olson, called him twice from this flight using an onboard phone. Full Article
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/amrarticle.html


Documents of testimony:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/AA757AMM.html


Dear Mr. XXXXXXXX:

Thank you for contacting Customer Relations. I am pleased to have the opportunity to assist you.

That is correct we do not have phones on our Boeing 757. The passengers on flight 77 used their own personal cellular phones to make out calls during the terrorist attack.

However, the pilots are able to stay in constant contact with the Air Traffic Control tower.

Mr. XXXXXXXX, I hope this information is helpful. It is a privilege to serve you. This is an "outgoing only" email address. If you 'reply' to this message by simply selecting the reply button, we will not receive your additional comments. Please assist us in providing you with a timely response to any feedback you have for us by always sending us your email messages via AA.com at http://www.aa.com/customerrelations.

Sincerely,
Chad Kinder
Customer Relations
American Airlines



6/27/07 - Revolution Radio with host Mike Swenson interviewing David Ray Griffin and Rob Balsamo regarding this article. DRG and RB are on Hour 2, but both hours are excellent. (right click and save target as...)
Hour 1
http://truthorlies.org/06-26-07-Hour-1.mp3
Hour 2
http://truthorlies.org/06-26-07-Hour-2.mp3



monolith

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
Er, um, Klimmer, the tail isn't 40+ feet high. That's the top off the ground with the landing gear down silly boy.

And since it slants back, the lower portion will hit first, tending to destroy it before the top hits.

The 16-foot hole is on the second floor.


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
You discount the credible eyewitness accounts...
-- Jaytee



With all due respect Jaytee, I believe you are doing the same.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
Do you folks know anything at all about cruise missiles? Ever seen one close
up or in a photo with something which would allow you to judge scale? How
about a cruise missile engine? Ever bother to just jump on Wikipedia and look up the
physical specifications of a cruise missile or one of their engines? No? Well,
if you had you could point out a problem with this photo from the assertion linked
in the OP.


Here's a hint fresh from Libya:


Basic fact checking, part of the abc's of journalism 101. I know that's a tall bar
for some folks with websites, but come on people, a little common sense still goes
a long way even in conspiracies...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
Mono, 44' 6" with gear down.

If it was a bit above the ground when it hit (as the pictures show), then there should be an impact where the tail hit the building.

I don't see an impact zone where there should be one.

Mono, you called me "so ignorent" [sic] for not seeing that the 16' hole that was made by the tail.


EDIT: Funny, I would never guess that that was a picture of where a 757 vaporized, mono. More power to you if you believe all the Original Story.
Homer

Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
Werner - thanks for your posts - I'm not sure what you're saying in this thread.

That we have incomplete information - we don't know for sure what happened? We're using all of the information we have to come to a conclusion, and even though we're all sure we're right, we don't have enough information to know that we're right?

Or you have a belief one way or the other that separates you from the sheeple? You've conducted some experiments on, for instance, what video evidence is available that has been suppressed, what "they" do when the evidence supports them, what eyewitnesses will say in these situations, etc.

Or are you just calling attention to the challenge of our situation - living with incomplete information?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2011 - 11:11pm PT
Homer

These two are good.

That we have incomplete information - we don't know for sure what happened? We're using all of the information we have to come to a conclusion, and even though we're all sure we're right, we don't have enough information to know that we're right?

Or are you just calling attention to the challenge of our situation - living with incomplete information?

Thanks for actually being someone who see clearly ......
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:17pm PT
They have the videos of whatever hit the pentagon but they won't release them even after congressional committees request them.

Yes, they are a secret government warehouse in a wooden crate just to the left of the crate holding the Ark of the Covenant and just to the left of the crates holding the skeleton of the Roswell aliens.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:20pm PT

What is a giant bicycle freewheel doing in the middle of the Pentagon wreckage?

This is proof that there was no airplane. It was a giant bicycle.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
C'mon guys. Pull a dang ruler out and scale it and measure things. But, it has already been done for you.

The 16' foot hole is nearly split between the 1st and 2nd floor. Stop lying. Infact, the top of the hole is nearly even with the top of the windows on the 2nd floor. The hole doesn't even go to the ceiling of the second floor.


The hole is nearly split equally between the 1st and 2nd floor. I would argue that it goes down to the ground but we can't see the ground because of the debri of the building.




*Note: The jet couldn't be any lower than the 2 engines below the wing. The engines hang low, so the point about the landing gears not being down is pretty mute. There were no massive trenches dug by the massive engines in "The Pentalawn." In fact it is pretty darn pristine for a massive 757 just flying over it by mere inches or feet wouldn't you say? See above image. Golf anyone?








By all estimates I've seen, the vertical stabilizer of a 757 would have come to the bottom of the 4th story windows of the Pentagon at a minimum. The 16' foot hole comes to the top of the 2nd story windows only. Again, here did the vertical stabilizer go through the Pentagon? Where did the full size of the wings go through? Where did the 2 massive engines go through the Pentagon? For the main fuselage of the 757 to go through that 16 foot hole it must have been greased down with Crisco. And I suppose the wings just folded up like a massive umbrella and just squeezed through along with it huh? And then no massive wreckage. The images immediately after the impact don't show a lot of wreckage on The Pentalawn. Only images after the collapse to the roof and then after that. The lawn after the immediate impact is pretty pristine.





Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:31pm PT
k-man

Also with all due respect - I asked you to post links to TV interviews, conducted as are the ones posted on this thread, with witnesses who saw anything other than a big jet airliner hit the Pentagon.

If there were any they would obviously be all over net, and you would have posted them. You didn't because they aren't any. How much more obvious does it have to be?

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:52pm PT
So, are you guys gonna take the Red Pill or the Blue Pill?

What's it gonna be?


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:23am PT
Ron,

All we have to do is invalidate the OCT. That has been done over and over again.

We don't have to say what they did with the flights and the passengers.

Read all about "Operation Northwoods."

Our government has done and is willing to do heinous crimes for its own immoral purposes. That is a fact.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/index.html


I highly suggest everyone read Jesse Ventura's 2 books. They are well written and well researched. They are co-authored with Dick Russell. Eye opening.

Jesse is a brave man and I have a great deal of respect for him. He doesn't have a college degree but the man is incredibly smart and savvy. He is willing to go where the real evidence goes. Many others would be cowards in his position by comparison.

American Conspiracies
http://www.amazon.com/American-Conspiracies-Dirty-Government-Tells/dp/160239802X

63 Documents the Government Doesn't Want You to Read
http://www.amazon.com/Documents-Government-Doesnt-Want-Read/dp/1616082267/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b



Edit to add:

Jesse Ventura Interview / 63 Documents - Part 1 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7qIhgP9pUA
Jesse Ventura Interview / 63 Documents Part 2 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=JbWcPC7X9iE
Jesse Ventura Interview / 63 Documents - Part 3 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=S2Q2jzglb7o
Jesse Ventura Interview / 63 Documents - Part 4 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36herIqfs_E&NR=1
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:30am PT
Jaytee - you have to watch what "witnesses" say. Remember the big gas line explosion in San Bruno Ca a little while ago. I was watching the news right after it happened. They interviewed a group of people watching the fire and one guy said he SAW a plane crash into the houses.





No plane, just gas.
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:40am PT




Normally I don't add to conspiracy theories, but Operation Northwoods clearly describes how the US government planned to apparently blow up planes full of people during the cold war/cuban missle crisis, etc.

It is an interesting read, the PDF file is scanned from the typewriter files.



So even though it is outside of the average American's ability to imagine, it IS something your Government dreamed up years ago and put on paper.









The other thing... I kept my cellphone on every flight I have taken since 9/11. To see if it works. Flown out of a dozen airports (SEA,LAX,new york, dallas, chicago, etc) with Sprint and ATT. Couldn't get service long enough after take off or before landing to make calls as long as they claimed were made. Has anyone else been able to get better service than I have? 20 flights this year alone for me.
Mimi

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:27am PT
Barbara Olson died on that plane among many others at that crash site.

Anyone stating that that attack was anything else than a plane crashing into the Pentagon is a total whackjob and should be shunned for their inanity.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:30am PT
Even the US government is backing off the Cell phone fairy tales on 9-11-2001.

I used my Kycera 2001 cell phone on a flight across the US from coast to coast in about 2004. Nada. Zip. Nothing. Only right after take-off until we were about 2000 feet off the ground, and similar with landing did I ever get a signal. The rest of the flight no bars. Zip. Not possible to call, and not possible to receive.





Could Barbara Olson Have Made Those Calls?

An Analysis of New Evidence about On-board Phones

David Ray Griffin and Rob Balsamo
06/26/07 - Did AA 77---the flight that, according to the official conspiracy theory about 9/11, struck the Pentagon---have onboard phones? This question is relevant to the possible truth of the official theory, because Ted Olson, who was then the US Solicitor General, claimed that his wife, Barbara Olson, called him twice from this flight using an onboard phone. Full Article
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/amrarticle.html


Documents of testimony:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/AA757AMM.html



United States v. Ted Olson

In the course of doing research for this article, we learned, to our amazement, that even if, contrary to our evidence, Flight 77 did have functioning onboard phones, the US government has now said, implicitly, that Ted Olson’s claim about receiving two calls from his wife that morning is untrue.

As we mentioned earlier, the FBI report on phone calls from AA planes on 9/11 does not cite records from the DOJ showing that any calls from AA 77 were received that morning. Instead, the FBI report refers merely to four “connected calls to unknown numbers.” The 9/11 Commission, putting the best possible spin on this report, commented: “The records available for the phone calls from American 77 do not allow for a determination of which of [these four calls] represent the two between Barbara and Ted Olson, although the FBI and DOJ believe that all four represent communications between Barbara Olson and her husband’s office.”27 That is, it must be said, a very strange conclusion: If Ted Olson reported receiving only two calls, why would the Commission conclude that the DOJ had received four connected calls from his wife?

That conclusion is, in any case, starkly contradicted by evidence about phone calls from Flight 77 presented by the US government at the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui in 2006.28 Far from attributing all four of the “connected calls to unknown numbers” to Barbara Olson, as the 9/11 Commission suggested, the government’s evidence here attributes none of them to her, saying instead that each of them was from an “unknown caller.” The only call attributed to Barbara Olson, moreover, is an “unconnected call” to the Department of Justice, which was said to have been attempted at “9:18:58” and to have lasted “0 seconds.” According to the US government in 2006, in other words, Barbara Olson attempted a call to the DOJ, but it did not go through.29 The government itself has presented evidence in a court of law, therefore, that implies that unless its former solicitor general was the victim of two faked phone calls, he was lying.

It may seem beyond belief that the US government would have failed to support Ted Olson’s claim. We ourselves, as we indicated, were amazed at this development. However, it would not be the first time that the FBI---surely the agency that prepared this report about phone calls from the flights30---had failed to support the official story about 9/11. We refer to the fact that when Rex Tomb, the FBI’s chief of investigative publicity, was asked why the bureau’s website on “Usama bin Laden” does not list 9/11 as one of the terrorist acts for which he is wanted, he replied: “[T]he FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”31

In any case, an interesting question about the government’s claim concerning the four “connected calls” from AA 77 is whether they were supposedly made from cell phones or passenger-seat phones. The government’s Moussaoui-trial evidence does not explicitly say. We can, however, make an inference based on its evidence for phone calls made from United Flight 93.

Although it had been generally believed that there had been approximately ten cell phone calls from UA 93---including the four widely publicized calls reported by Deena Burnett from her husband, Tom Burnett---the government’s document on this flight identifies only two calls as cell phone calls: those made at 9:58 by passenger Edward Felt and flight attendant CeeCee Lyles. One might conclude from this information, to be sure, that the government simply remained neutral on some of the other calls that had been thought to be cell phone calls, such as the Burnett calls, leaving open whether they were from cell or onboard phones. But that is not the case. A reporter at the Moussaoui trial wrote:




In the back of the plane, 13 of the terrified passengers and crew members made 35 air phone calls and two cell phone calls to family members and airline dispatchers, a member of an FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force testified Tuesday.32




The government explicitly said, therefore, that only two of the calls from UA 93---which were identified in the government’s report on this flight as being from Felt and Lyles33---were cell phone calls.

We can infer, therefore, that because these calls from Felt and Lyles are the only two calls from all the flights that are identified as cell phone calls, all the calls from the other flights are now said by the government to have been made from onboard phones.34

The distinctive thing about the calls from Felt and Lyles is that they reportedly occurred at 9:58, after United 93 had descended to about 5,000 feet. By limiting the cell phone calls from all four flights to these two from UA 93, the government is no longer, even implicitly, supporting the view that high-altitude cell phone calls from airliners are possible. The government has thereby implicitly overcome, by conceding the point, one of the 9/11 movement’s main arguments against the government’s conspiracy theory.

This is a rather amazing development. Much of the official story about 9/11 has been based on the assumption that high-altitude cell phone calls were made. The film United 93, for example, portrayed five cell phone conversations. The 9/11 Commission Report, discussing UA 93, said: “Shortly [after 9:32], the passengers and flight crew began a series of calls from GTE airphones and cellular phones.”35

Four cell phone calls from UA 93 were, as mentioned earlier, supposed to have been made by Tom Burnett.36 His wife, Deena Burnett, repeatedly said Tom used his cell phone. She knew this, she said, because the Caller ID identified his cell phone as the source.37 Her testimony has been repeated countless times in the media. For example, a special segment about her on CBS’s Early Show said: “Tom Burnett made four cell phone calls from Flight 93 to Deena Burnett at home, telling her he and some other passengers were going to ‘do something.’” In a letter published in the National Review, Tom’s father spoke of “Tom's four cell-phone calls from Flight 93 to his wife, Deena.”38

The government’s evidence presented in 2006 at the Moussaoui trial, however, implies that she was mistaken, even though, given her statement that she saw her husband’s Caller ID number, the government’s new position means that she was either lying or, as we believe, the victim of a faked call using a device that, besides morphing her husband’s voice, faked his Caller ID number.39

However, although the government has undercut much of the basis for the official and popular accounts of 9/11 by denying the occurrence of any high-altitude cell phone calls, it has, by paying this price, protected itself from the 9/11 truth movement’s charge that the official story is falsified by the fact that such calls are impossible.

We come now, in any case, to the implication of the government’s Moussaoui-trial evidence about phone calls for the government’s position on whether AA 77 had onboard phones. According to this evidence, there were five connected calls from AA 77: one from Renee May and four from “unknown callers.” Given what we have learned from the government’s evidence about calls from UA 93---that all calls not identified as cell phone calls are said to have been made from onboard phones---we can conclude that, by virtue of not identifying any of the five “connected calls” from this flight as cell phone calls, the government is implying that this plane did have onboard phones. It does not, therefore, support our view on this issue.

Nevertheless, whether one accepts our evidence, which indicates that there were not any onboard phones on AA 77 from which calls could have been made, or trusts the government’s evidence presented at the Moussaoui trial, the conclusion is the same: The two conversations reported by Ted Olson did not happen.



The US Government has conceded that cell phones don't work from high altitude passenger jets. We've been saying this all along. They have had to admit many calls did not happen that were used as evidence and portrayed in the OCT as though they did happen.
jbaker

Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:59am PT
I was across the Potomac from the Pentagon on 9/11. I'd just come out of a building, where I'd watched the attacks on the WTC on TV. I was looking in the direction of the Pentagon. The Pentagon itself was blocked by buildings in the foreground. A jet that looked the size and shape of a 757 came in at extremely high speed from the N/NE (roughly - following the Potomac), streaking downward.

It went out of sight for a second, blocked by the foreground, and then the sound and flames of the explosion leapt up from behind the buildings in the foreground. It was clear it had hit the Pentagon. It was an awful sight, knowing a plane full of people had just been deliberately steered into a building full of people.

There is no way it was a cruise missile.

jbaker

Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:27am PT
Kevin:

It is hard for me to joke about it, even after 10 years. It was an intense day, even for someone who was only peripherally touched by it. I knew a couple of people in the Twin Towers, and friends of friends were killed in the Pentagon.

After the hit on the Pentagon, I started to take the Metro back to my office to check on people, realized it was really stupid to be underground near the Capitol, and got off and walked across the city. I had to circle around the Capitol to get to my office, and everyone was clearly expecting a hit on it. I could see jets flying CAP overhead. Helicopters were shuttling bigwigs to undisclosed locations. Troops were setting up perimeters and checkpoints.

My office was a couple blocks away from the Capitol. I got there after detouring around and using back streets, and the remaining staff and interns were milling around, trying to figure out what to do. We closed the office and ordered everyone out. Some people were heading out to the farthest stops of the Metro, just to get as far away as possible from another potential hit.

I walked from the SE to the NW. The streets were packed with cars trying to get the hell out of the Metro area. People were in the streets, just trying to connect with each other and make sense of it. I finally got to my apartment, where my girlfriend, who'd moved to DC on the 9th after a two year bi-coastal long distance relationship, was trying to figure out what the hell she'd signed up for.
Mimi

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:46am PT
So where are Barbara and the other passengers hanging out these days?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 05:39am PT
Some of you people are just crazy....
Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Aug 27, 2011 - 09:22am PT
Yea and what was all that underground work going on in the Valley, couldn't have been a sewer project, you don't believe that s**t do you?

WB don't you work for the Fed's? Tell us what you guys were really burying!
Dave Johnson

Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 10:10am PT
They are burying black helicopters, Charlie.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
Some of you people are just crazy....



Yea, we're crazy. Uh, huh. Sure whatever you say. (Eyes rolling.)


Not as bat poop crazy as our US government and the Joint chiefs of Staff in the Pentagon can be. From the official "Operation Northwoods" released documents . . . This is what they wanted to do back in 1962, "false-flag" false pretext operations against Cuba to provoke war. Do you really think they have stopped doing this kind of stuff? Hardly. They have gotten even more sophisticated, dark, and sinister since then. Just look at all the evil the Bush/Neocon Administration was able to do in just 8 years. Unbelievable.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods


6. Use of MIG type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type planes would be useful as complementary actions. An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were to announce such fact. The primary drawback to this suggestion appears to be the security risk inherent in obtaining or modifying an aircraft. However, reasonable copies of the MIG could be produced from US resources in about three months.[15]


7. Hijacking attempts against civil air and surface craft should appear to continue as harassing measures condoned by the government of Cuba. Concurrently, genuine defections of Cuban civil and military air and surface craft should be encouraged.

8. It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner en route from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.
a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.
b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will begin transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio[16] stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the US what has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to "sell" the incident.


9. It is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack.
a. Approximately 4 or 5 F-101 aircraft will be dispatched in trail from Homestead AFB, Florida, to the vicinity of Cuba. Their mission will be to reverse course and simulate fakir aircraft for an air defense exercise in southern Florida. These aircraft would conduct variations of these flights at frequent Intervals. Crews would be briefed to remain at least 12 miles off the Cuban coast; however, they would be required to carry live ammunition in the event that hostile actions were taken by the Cuban MIGs.
b. On one such flight, a pre-briefed pilot would fly tail-end Charley at considerable interval between aircraft. While near the Cuban Island this pilot would broadcast that he had been jumped by MIGs and was going down. No other calls would be made. The pilot would then fly directly west at extremely low altitude and land at a secure base, an Eglin auxiliary. The aircraft would be met by the proper people, quickly stored and given a new tail number. The pilot who had performed the mission under an alias, would resume his proper identity and return to his normal place of business. The pilot and aircraft would then have disappeared.
c. At precisely the same time that the aircraft was presumably shot down, a submarine or small surface craft would disburse F-101 parts, parachute, etc., at approximately 15 to 20 miles off the Cuban coast and depart. The pilots returning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft found.[17]



And you guys don't think it is possible that 9-11 was an inside job, even when we can prove the OCT is invalid. Man are you guys snowed.




In memory of JB. He liked to post this image . . .








To all you naysayers . . .



WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
This is from United Air Lines Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret.) who actually flew these planes during his career.

"The fakers say the B-757's and 767's were doing about 530 MPH (that's statute miles per hour).

Well, we don't use statute miles! We use KNOTS! So, this translates to about 460 Knots, which is exactly 110 knots ABOVE Vmo of 350 Kts at about 1000' above MSL (sea level)!

IN LEVEL FLIGHT NO LESS!!!! THIS IS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE!

The "Drag Rise" (shock waves) would rip the wings off the airplane well before reaching that speed! Above Vy, (best rate of climb speed) drag increases to the square of the velocity of the air speed!

Remember folks, these were AIRLINERS."
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
Klimmer

Anybody with any interest in these subjects knows about the despicable covert operations undertaken by all Imperial (Western generally) powers, not just American ones. This is as old as history man. You think people don't know about this stuff?

I'm as "pinko" as you can get, and loathe the likes of Bush & his chums as much as the next quasi-communist, but only an idiot thinks these absurd claims of a washington-based 9-11 conspiracy are serious. Get real, and grow up.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
Drink your Kool-Aid and repeat after me:


This is where a Boeing 757 crashed,
this is where a Boeing 757 crashed...





Somebody, please overlay the outline of a 757. Be sure to make room for the wings above the untouched spools, the intact columns, and show where the engines, wings, and tail hit the building. Should be easy.



Oh, and Jaytee, I already pointed out where you can find interviews of folks who saw things other than a Boeing 757 hit the building. But, if all you believe is what you see on network TV, that's your problem, not mine.


On the tenth anniversary of 9/11, American researchers will appear live at The Royal cinema in Toronto to present exclusive interviews with eyewitnesses to the act of mass murder which took place at the Pentagon that day.


Simply put, the plane did not fly where it absolutely had to be to match the government reports and cause the directional damage inside and outside of the building. The eyewitnesses’ accounts prove that it could not have, and indeed did not, strike the Pentagon. It was seen flying away by multiple witnesses immediately after the explosion.

To those who keep asking "What happened to the passengers?", I reply: Damn good question.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
I was across the Potomac from the Pentagon on 9/11. I'd just come out of a building, where I'd watched the attacks on the WTC on TV. I was looking in the direction of the Pentagon. The Pentagon itself was blocked by buildings in the foreground. A jet that looked the size and shape of a 757 came in at extremely high speed from the N/NE (roughly - following the Potomac), streaking downward.

It went out of sight for a second, blocked by the foreground, and then the sound and flames of the explosion leapt up from behind the buildings in the foreground. It was clear it had hit the Pentagon. It was an awful sight, knowing a plane full of people had just been deliberately steered into a building full of people.

There is no way it was a cruise missile.
jbaker deserves a response given his first person account of the events in DC on 9-11-2001. He’s either misguided, a liar or telling truth. My gut says he’s telling the truth whereas for a few, your position foists that he is mistaken about what he saw or he’s a liar. But by all means keep talking about how some “pilot” you read about on the internetz says a 757 can’t go 500 mph or a 50 year war game memo.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
The video is the video..

I find some of the facts a bit too difficult to accept:

Specifications

757-200 757-200F 757-300
Flight deck crew Two
Seating, typical 200 (two-class)
234 (one-class) N/A 243 (two-class)
289 (one-class)
Length 155 ft 3 in (47.32 m) 178 ft 8 in (54.47 m)
Wingspan 124 ft 10 in (38.05 m)
Tail height 44 ft 6 in (13.56 m)
Wing area 1,951.0 sq ft (181.25 m2)
Wing sweepback 25°
Wing aspect ratio 7.8
Wheelbase 60.0 ft (18.29 m) 73.3 ft (22.35 m)
Cabin width 11.6 ft (3.54 m)
Cabin length 118.4 ft (36.09 m) 141.8 ft (43.21 m)
Empty Weight 127,520 lb
(57,840 kg) 142,400 lb
(64,590 kg)
Maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) 255,000 lb
(115,680 kg) 272,500 lb
(123,600 kg)
Take-off run at MTOW 9,550 ft (2,910 m) 9,600 ft (2,900 m)
Cruise speed Mach 0.80 (530 mph, 458 knots, 850 km/h at cruise altitude of 35,000 ft or 10.66 km)1
Range, loaded 3,900 nmi (7,222 km)
−200WL: 4,100 mni (7,600 km) 3,150 nmi (5,834 km) 3,395 nmi (6,287 km)
Maximum fuel 11,489 US gal (43,490 L) 11,276 US gal (42,680 L) 11,466 US gal (43,400 L)
Service ceiling 42,000 ft (12,800 m)
Engines (2×) Rolls-Royce RB211, Pratt & Whitney PW2037, PW2040, or PW2043 turbofan engines
rated at 36,600 lbf (163 kN) to 43,500 lbf (193 kN) thrust each





Fit through a 12 foot hole in the wall????


Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
k-man

I don't believe everything I see on TV. I use my critical faculties to decide what I may find to be true or false. I tend to side with Noam Chomsky's views on the media generally, and hope I am pretty discerning.

You have provided no remotely credible eyewitness reports describing anything other than a massive jet airliner crashing into the Pentagon. You seem incredibly tenacious in holding onto these bizarre beliefs. It's just really... weird.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
I'm as "pinko" as you can get, and loathe the likes of Bush & his chums as much as the next quasi-communist, but only an idiot thinks these absurd claims of a washington-based 9-11 conspiracy are serious.

Actually, I believe that only a stupid worthless f*#k believes:

* The hijacked flights all flew long routes taking them far from their targets exposing them to certain interception given standard operating procedures.

* The towering infernos were said to burn with the heat of nuclear power plants, despite sooty black smoke and few visible flames.

* The building collapses were presented as inevitable, even though such behavior was unheard of in steel structures.

* An extensive paper trail of the hijackers was found within hours of the attack, even though the same people had supposedly eluded authorities for years.

* The same hijackers who pulled off aerobatic maneuvers with large jets were flight school flunkies who had never flown jets.

* The FBI claimed that the passport from one of Flight 11's hijackers was found blocks from the towers (when the only other parts found of the jetliner that penetrated the tower were a few pieces of landing gear).

* The FBI pinpointed who the assailants were, even though several "hijackers" turned up alive after the attack.

* The video of Osama bin Laden that has him taking credit for the attack doesn't even look like him.

* Passengers made cell phone calls from the planes while at high altitude.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
k-man

I give up - you posit ridiculous speculation as evidence, and simultaneously wilfully ignore the evidence on plain view in front of your nose. Yep, I give up... over to you & Klimmer. Hope you enjoy each other's company :)
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
ridiculous speculation


Please enumerate the speculation.


Facts != Specuation



And speaking of ignoring evidence ...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
Come on Jaytee, you're calling me an idiot and accusing me of posting "ridiculous speculation."

Those are strong words, and I expect you to back up your claims.


If you can't back up your claims against me, then

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:44pm PT
Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain.
Friedrich Schiller
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
Damn .....

I'm gonna have to build the experiment myself since these so called scientist don't even follow their own rules.

Hypothesis, theory, and then make experiment.

They only do the first two and then just run their mouths forever.

Where do I get one of the big ass planes to crash in my replica wall at 500 mph at a supposedly impossible maneuver by the pros themselves?

So called Arab did it who couldn't even fly a consumer plane so I should be able to pull this off no problem.

I'll pack the plane full of dummies, of course me being the first dummy.

Then ..... I'll jump out right before impact.

I'll need a technical adviser. This Weld-it dude guy might be the ticket.

Wish me luck ......

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 01:59pm PT
Wow.....

Some of you are very mentally disturbed.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
Crap Dingus ....

Now that's a big hairy ass plane.

I'm nominating you as part of the experiment.

Which part do you want to play ..... :-)

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
Yeah.

So explain to me again why they won't release the tapes of the crash.

You know, the ones the FBI confiscated minutes (not hours) after the incident.

I'm one that finds that particularly odd.
monolith

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
Ron, you give K-Man too much credit in response. Ask him to first back up his assertions. He can't.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 27, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
Mono, what assertions have I made? I've posted the anomalies that are present in the Official Story. To me, it's puzzling and I question why there are so many lies and fabrications in the tale.


BTW, you gonna superimpose an outline of a 757 on your Pentagon photo? That would be interesting to see.



Not to mention the "STANDARD" security policies of the PENTAGON...

Right. If any knucklehead can fly an airliner into the building, they better be thinking of how to make it more secure! In other words, I don't buy it because I believe that the existing & standard security policies would not have allowed for the building to be hit by the airliner. (Refer to the Minetta/Cheney conversation for more details.)
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
Good thing there's lots of video and millions of eyewitnesses of the WTC getting hit by knuckleheads who can't fly a plane, or there might be some sort of batshit crazy conspiracy theory about it being, like, a highly secretive controlled demolition carried out by dozens of individuals and unnoticed by any of the thousands of people working in the building!!!

Thank goodness for that video, SHWEW!!!



P.S. Right, the FBI, who was IN on the Pentagon "incident", made sure to confiscate the tapes minutes after (but somehow forget to sabotage all the video cameras just before?) Because it's much easier to let the tapes roll, and of course, nothing EVER leaks from our government.
Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
Anybody got an explanation as to why they would use a cruise missile instead of just using the plane that they had to make disappear anyway?

Why not just crash the plane into the pentagon like they did with the WTC towers?



Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 27, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
Lot's of practice under the guise of other but very similiar events . . .



And Condoleezza Rice saying "We never imagined planes being used as missiles . . ." blah-blah-blah.

I laugh. And then I cry.

Right Condi. Sure I believe you. (Dang lying Neocon.)


9/11: THREATS ABOUT AIRPLANES AS WEAPONS PRIOR TO 9/11
By: Dr. Matthew Robinson
Associate Professor of Criminal Justice
Appalachian State University
robinsnmb@appstate.edu
http://www.justiceblind.com/airplanes.html




They had lots of practice over and over again . . .

PENTAGON & CIA PRACTICED 9-11-2001
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC_practiced.htm
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 27, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
Anybody got an explanation as to why they would use a cruise missile instead of just using the plane that they had to make disappear anyway?

Why not just crash the plane into the pentagon like they did with the WTC towers?


Military precision and control.

They had to have the exact pretext for War, and they had to get rid of the evidence for losing 2.3 Trillion dollars announced by Rumsfeld on 9-10-2001 in a press conference.


Rumsfeld 2.3 Trillion Dollars missing Pentagon 1 DAY before 911 (Conspiracies)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpWqdPMjmo


The missile (or what ever it was) hit exactly where the computers and personnel were, that knew about and knew exactly where all the skeletons hiding in the closet were: the finance office, that had just received reinforced walls.

Dang the coincidences of all that happening exactly like it did. What are the odds??? (2.3 Trillion to 1)


Lol.



Are you gonna take control and make it happen exactly as you want or are you going to run the risk with Arab flight flunkies?

Pretty straight forward choice if you think that way and have gone to the dark side and you don't have a soul.
monolith

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
What assertions? Hilarious K-man.

How about that the FBI confiscated all security camera video within minutes of the attack. Really, within minutes? Even, like hotel security video, parking lot video? That would mean the FBI was in on the conspiracy.

Back it up K-Man. And not some stupid anonymous source.

I see Cleo already nailed you on that one.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Aug 27, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
Roger Murdock: Flight 2-0-9'er, you are cleared for take-off.
Captain Oveur: Roger!
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Tower voice: L.A. departure frequency, 123 point 9'er.
Captain Oveur: Roger!
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Victor Basta: Request vector, over.
Captain Oveur: What?
Tower voice: Flight 2-0-9'er cleared for vector 324.
Roger Murdock: We have clearance, Clarence.
Captain Oveur: Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?
Tower voice: Tower's radio clearance, over!
Captain Oveur: That's Clarence Oveur. Over.
Tower voice: Over.
Captain Oveur: Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Tower voice: Roger, over!
Roger Murdock: What?
Captain Oveur: Huh?
Victor Basta: Who?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 12:09am PT
A security camera atop a hotel close to the Pentagon may have captured dramatic footage of the hijacked Boeing 757 airliner as it slammed into the western wall of the Pentagon. Hotel employees sat watching the film in shock and horror several times before the FBI confiscated the video as part of its investigation.

It may be the only available video of the attack. The Pentagon has told broadcast news reporters that its security cameras did not capture the crash.

The attack occurred close to the Pentagon's heliport, an area that normally would be under 24-hour security surveillance, including video monitoring.


Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20021219062257/http://www.gertzfile.com/gertzfile/ring092101.html

Not only has the government refused to release footage that would clearly show how the Pentagon was attacked, it has also seized footage not belonging to the military. The FBI confiscated video recordings from several private businesses near the Pentagon in the immediate aftermath of the attack. Those recordings, if they still exist, might provide decisive evidence about the attack.

The FBI visited a hotel near the Pentagon to confiscate film from a security camera which some hotel employees had been watching in horror shortly after the attack. The FBI denied that the footage captured the attack. 1
The FBI visited the Citgo gas station southwest of the Pentagon within minutes of the attack to confiscate film that may have captured the attack. According to Jose Velasquez, who was working at the gas station at the time of the attack, the station's security cameras would have captured the attack. 2


At least two plaintiffs have attempted to obtain videos seized by the FBI, using the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). The first, documented at Flight77.info, began with a request to the FBI in October of 2004. The second, undertaken by the Judicial Watch, Inc. began with a request to the Department of Defense (DOD) in December of 2004. Following is a timeline of the requests and subsequent lawsuits. Entries relating to the second case are distinguished with dates colored gray.

October 14, 2004: Scott A. Hodes, on behalf of his client Scott Bingham, sends a request to David Hardy of the FBI requesting any videos "that may have captured the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001". The request letter mentions videotapes from the Citgo Gas Station and the Sheraton National Hotel.

...

The entire timeline is given in more detail here: http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/footage.html#lawsuits

So mono, these are not assertions, these are facts.

No need to apologize, I know it must already be hard being you.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 01:15am PT
Only one month of flight school I should be able to make this type of precision maneuver also.

If I have a box cutter razor blade in my hand it will definitely make it easier .....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 01:33am PT
Some thoughts:

Like most, I accepted the Official Story on how the 9-11 attacks happened. Then one day, several years after the 9-11 Commission Report came out, I was watching TV and saw a program about it all.

I came into the middle of the broadcast where they were talking about how it took over 2 years for Bush to OK a special commission to review what happened on that stomach-turning day. On top of that, when he finally did form a commission to review what had happened, he under funded it and put Henry Kissinger in charge.

The broadcast I watched compared the WH's response to the responses of other major events, such as the quick and fully funded response to find out what happened in the Challenger mishap.

I found this really strange, the biggest attack *ever* on American soil, and the president didn't willingly form a task force to look into it?

Then other things happened that didn't make much sense, such as when Bush and Cheney refused to be interviewed about the 9-11 events, unless they could pre-screen the questions, have no taping device in the room when questioned, not allow follow-up questions, and give a very limited time for the interview. Also strange is that they demanded that both of them needed to be together when questioned.

Wow, really?

Yes, really.

When I heard this, I asked myself "Why would key officials act in such a suspicious manner?" What is it they are trying to hide??

This only made me more curious about the 9-11 story, and in looking into it I found many things that didn't add up into a nice neat package like the Official Story wanted me to believe.

When you watch a Hollywood action flick, you have to employ what is known as the "suspension of disbelief" if you want to enjoy the plot of the movie. The Official Story is much like this--you have to suspend your disbelief if you are to believe the story. The 9-11 gig is a bit different though, because so many of the things in the Official Story contradict themselves and are flat out falsehoods, that to swallow it, you have to really not care.

The Official Story has so many areas where key information is withheld and the facts so twisted, that a critical-thinking person must begin to wonder. And in wondering, a thinking person questions why would they twist any of facts at all? Why claim that folks made cell phone calls from the airplanes? Why would they make up this lie?

So you can make fun of me, and all the other hundreds of thousands of people who don't believe the Official Story, but it won't make me suspend my disbelief as is required of me to believe the tall tale that's been told to us.

If you believe the tale, that's your choice. But to me, you aren't using your ability to reason when they tell you they found Atta's undamaged passport in the street minutes after he flew a plane into the World Trade Center in an action so violent that it vaporized the plane in an explosion, and produced a fire so hot that it melted the structural steel in the building.

Sure, I might be able to suspend my disbelief for one such event, but there are simply too many unbelievable things contained in the Official Story for me to believe that they could have all taken place. It's simply more unbelievable than any Hollywood action movie. And, if the Official Story contains even one single lie, we should all be asking ourselves this: "Why would they lie?"
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 28, 2011 - 01:47am PT
I would pay 50 bucks towards an experiment to see what size hole one of those planes would make in such a building.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people would. No matter which side of the story they believe.

+2 for what K man wrote.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 28, 2011 - 02:05am PT
Nicely stated K-man.

2 thumbs up.




For me it was what happened at the Pentagon that got me to open my eyes. It was basically a challenge from a student to look into it.

I did. And the OCT fell apart from there when I honestly looked at all the evidence.

And if they lied there, then everything else is a lie also . . . and sure enough it is.

Micheal Ruppert's Crossing the Rubicon took care of the means, motive, and opportunity.

It was a bitter hard pill to swallow.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 28, 2011 - 02:07am PT
Why couldn't a fighter jet travel 250 miles in over an hour to intercept the fourth, obviously errant flight, as had been supposedly ordered by Cheney?

They were using advanced stealth box cutter technology. They couldn't find the plane.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 28, 2011 - 02:18am PT
I still want to see Werner's experiment.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 28, 2011 - 04:10am PT
Even had a conversation with a lady whose brother was an AA pilot and she told me it is generally well known in Airline circles that the plane was shot down.

It is not "well known" and the idea the shooting down a commercial airliner anywhere east of the Mississippi is going to go unnoticed or be covered up is utterly ludicrous.

This is from United Air Lines Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret.) who actually flew these planes during his career.

Well, my father is a retired UAL captain and both brothers are Fedex captains and all three think it was entirely possible for the hijackers to have accomplished the feat.
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Aug 28, 2011 - 09:36am PT
Tami-

You're crediting k-man with open-mindedness? Nobody is more closed-minded than people like him, that have a fixed belief and refuse to look at evidence that contradicts their prejudices. They swerve, obfuscate and squirm to avoid being confronted with such evidence.

Did you notice how the subject swerved away from the Pentagon into the wild realms of generalised 9-11 conspiracy? How he pretended to himself that he'd posted the evidence I politely asked him for?

Open-minded? Pull the other one. If this person was genuinely open-minded, and a serious student, he could personally interview the witnesses themselves. One of them posted on this site you may have noticed. (However, I certainly wouldn't expect many such people directly personally affected by these events to greet the likes of him with a cheery smile).





TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:21am PT
Well, we don't use statute miles! We use KNOTS! So, this translates to about 460 Knots, which is exactly 110 knots ABOVE Vmo of 350 Kts at about 1000' above MSL (sea level)!

It's obvious that there was an even deeper level to the plot. The explosive bolts that Boeing included in the design that make the wings fall off at 351 Kts must have been disconnected by the FAA.

They were in on it too.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:38am PT
Werner's experiment was already done.

It was done 2X using the WTC towers.

Both jets left an exact outline/profile through the building materials. Through massive steel beams on the outside of both WTC towers, like massive cookie cutters punched them out.

Sure, it wasn't the same exact building materials but good enough.

We see no outline profile of anykind at the Pentagon. Where the wings would have completely impacted the Pentagon from tip to tip, no equivalent or consistant damage to the Pentagon. Where the very tall vertical stabalizer would have impacted the Pentagon, we have intact windows from the top of the second floor to the bottom of the windows on the 4th floor. Zip. Nada. Nothing. No consistant damage. Where the 2 massive engines would have impacted the Pentagon, again no consistant or equivalent damage. The main fuselage could barely have squeezed through the 16'hole. No massive wreckage of anykind. All that supposed wreckage from a 757 just completely vaporized, vanished. 2 massive engines made with very high temperature resistant alloys nowhere to be found. Not buying it. And those that do aviation accident investigations are not buying it either.

People who survived "the bomb" from within the Pentagon who worked there, like April Gallop (who by the way is sueing the US government and who also has beed harassed and threatened) and came out through the 16 hole have said they saw nothing inside to indicate that a massive jet just came through. Nothing. Many people on the first response team and the clean-up have said the same thing.

What we do see is completely consistant with something much smaller like a missile. Many witnesses have testified to smelling the explosive, smelling the Cordite.


What Really happened on 9/11? Come and hear 9/11 eyewitness/mother from Pentagon
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3965407869390415574#

"April Gallop was at the Pentagon with her 2 months old baby, when the 9/11 explosion at the pentagon blew her off her feet. April walked out of the crater hole in the Pentagon injured, but alive. Come and hear April's first hand testimony of what She saw on 9/11. The testimony that the 9/11 commission and the major/dominant news media have shamelessly kept from you and the American People!"
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 11:02am PT
Well, my father is a retired UAL captain and both brothers are Fedex captains and all three think it was entirely possible for the hijackers to have accomplished the feat.


Hypothesis, theory, then experiment.

The guy couldn't even pilot a little consumer plane.

The modern scientists in this thread here just do hypothesis, theory, and no experiment, then run their mouths .......
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 11:07am PT
No

YOU ......
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 11:34am PT
I'm not doing any speculations.

It's all you guys doing the speculations and trying so damn hard to weld those speculations onto the researchers.

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 28, 2011 - 11:34am PT
whatever you believe about these things, here's the scenario suggested by the CIT:

yes, there was a 757 and it apparently crashed into the pentagon, but at the last moment it pulled up and over the building and went on to land at the nearby d.c. airport. there is a reluctant witness who reports seeing it fly over on the other side of the pentagon.

the CIT investigators are suggesting a devious jetliner flight coordinated with a missile and pre-planted explosives within the pentagon. the damage to the pentagon was to a newly remodeled, and largely unpeopled, area on the side opposite the secretary of defense's office.

the main contribution by the CIT has been to nail down eyewitnesses from the citgo station, including two off-duty washington, d.c., police officers, who told them quite positively that the plane passed overhead on the left side of the station (facing the pentagon), not the right side. why is that important? the downed light poles, some of which fell the wrong way (away from the pentagon), indicate a flight path which would have had to have been on the right side of the station. the implication is that charges were planted on the light poles to simulate being knocked down.

if you haven't read norman mineta's testimony to the 9/11 commission, check it out. you won't find it in the commission report, by the way, but it was given under oath and has been published widely. mineta, then secretary of transportation, was in the control bunker with cheney. a young aide kept coming in to apprise the vice-president of the hijacked plane approaching washington--it's 20 minutes out, 15 minutes, 10 minutes ... do the orders still stand? cheney, mineta said, whipped his head around and said, "of course the orders still stand!"

so tell us, all you believers-of-the-government out there, how YOU explain that? by what scenario would the vice-president of the united states be sitting on his butt allowing a hijacked airplane to approach closer and closer to the nation's capital, apprised of its progress every few minutes, and finally allowing it to crash into the pentagon? by what scenario would the fighter planes at andrews air force base, seconds away from the heart of washington, be sitting on the ground with 40 minutes of lead time instead of being out there buzzing the crap out of that 757 as it approached--20 minutes out, 15 minutes, 10 minutes ... ?

does anyone here believe it was out of concern for the poor victims of the hijacking, that the government would have sat there and allowed such an approach into protected airspace on the slim chance that they could persuade the supposed hijackers to give up and save the hundred-odd people in the airliner?

i'm sure that's what it was. no wonder they didn't scramble any fighters from andrews--that would only have enforced the hijackers' resolve. i'm sure they had a muslim holy man, trained in crisis management, attempting to dissuade the hijackers up until the very last second.

i shouldn't be suggesting this. it'll be in a news release next week.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 11:38am PT
To truly critically think this issue you have to look at it from the other side- if what you are saying is true then flight schools, airport video, 1000s of witnesses, hijacker families, long historical trails, not to mention the complicity of every single person in government since then( Obama) and 10, 000's of other silent people.


Every time people bring up all the anomalies with the 9-11 story, this is the "proof" that people offer to show that it must have gone down the way the Official Story tells it.
You can can on it like clockwork.



Jaytee, you're an ass, we've already "proved" that. And I'm not going to rudely talk about you in the 3rd person in front of you. I'm going to point a finger right at your face and call you the names that you deserve, in the 1st person.

Nobody is more closed-minded than people like him, that have a fixed belief and refuse to look at evidence that contradicts their prejudices.

Remember asswipe, I was the one who posted the quote that supported your belief, and even underlined the exact sentence that gave your view credence. Then, pig-squealer, you had the audacity to tell me to read the sentence a "few times. Then again," as if I couldn't read or understand what it was I posted. What a jerk.

I told you flat out where you could go to see interviews of folks who said they saw something other than a 757. I'm not going to hold your hand and make you watch an hour-long video, when it is painfully obvious that YOU are the one who refuses to look at evidence that contradicts your prejudice. I'd call you a hypocrite, but that would give people like Bush a bad name.

Go ahead, tell me that "it couldn't possibly happen because Washington could never keep the secret." I, along with hundreds of thousands of people, including high-ranking officials in other governments, have called for a real investigation into what happened that day, and not the circus filled with stoolies that was the bumbling 9-11 Commission.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 11:46am PT
k-man

People like Jaytee are just a waste of time.

Don't bother with him and just let him rant.

Don't let your emotions control you over this stuff ....
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 28, 2011 - 11:55am PT
http://www.theonion.com/articles/openminded-man-grimly-realizes-how-much-life-hes-w,19273/


I think this article helps to clarify many points.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 28, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
April Gallop, Military Officer, Pentagon 911 Victim, Sued Cheney, Was In Court Today~News BLACKOUT
admin | Apr 06, 2011 | 2 comments
http://www.welcomethelight.com/2011/04/april-gallop-military-officer-pentagon-911-victim-sued-cheney-was-in-court-todaynews-blackout/


Here is our scary justice system at work for you. Cover-up, avoid, and when possible assign a judge to the case who is the cousin of GWB. Can't get any more blatantly corrupt than that.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
Thanks Werner, true stuff you speak.


We were talking the other day about how your mind becomes wired to react in certain ways to specific stimuli. For example, when somebody walks into a room that you love or hate, your mind goes down a pre-configured path that dictates how you feel. This is not pseudo science, this is a real physiological thing that happens. People must take an active roll in breaking the patterns that their minds have set up for them.

I find that when I talk to Right-wingers and other folks with closed minds, that my mind goes through these triggers. And it is a waste of good time and good energy that I should be otherwise fostering.

I posted "Some thoughts" in an attempt to graciously bow out of this debate and explain why I feel the way I do.

In Other News, it is a beautiful Sunday. I wish I were climbing, but instead will make the most of the precious hours of daylight ahead.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
No Ron

You're just plain wasting your time on your own.

Quit trying to blame others for your own faults .....
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 28, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
I still want to see an experiment where they fly a plane into a replica of the pentagon.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
Ron, I didn't say that talking to Right-wingers or folks with closed minds was a waste of time. Instead, I realized that it's a waste of good energy when my mind goes to these preconfigured thought patterns when it gets triggered in certain ways.

Big difference.


And Werner is right. Don't blame me for how you spend your time.
Have a nice one, ...
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 28, 2011 - 01:59pm PT
We were talking the other day about how your mind becomes wired to react in certain ways to specific stimuli. For example, when somebody walks into a room that you love or hate, your mind goes down a pre-configured path that dictates how you feel. This is not pseudo science, this is a real physiological thing that happens. People must take an active roll in breaking the patterns that their minds have set up for them.

I like this, Kelly. I could only add that those patterns exist for the most part in our subconscious and few have learned how to access that Quagmire to take such an active roll. I think it scares the crap out of most people.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
I could only add that those patterns exist for the most part in our subconscious

Interesting Wayno. I was told that there's actual physical patterns that form. Either way, it is a new science, but intriguing.




ION, looks like Jaytee took down the post that offended me so. I guess I struck a chord with him...
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 28, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
Kelly, I'm not sure how it all works, but from a purely practical point of view, some methods have developed over the years to gain access to the Quagmire to make change for the better or worse. Hypnosis is one example, but there are many others and new ones still emerging. There is hope.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
Kman- so what is your exact version of what occurred on 911.

Riley, what makes you think I have an exact version of what occurred on 9/11?


All I know is that I don't believe the Official Story, it glosses over too many FACTS that would be inconsistent with the story.


I am still waiting for somebody to super-impose the outline of a 757 on the over-sized image that monolith posted.

But then again, I think I know the reason none of you are willing to look at that--it would probably end up with you waving your arms and saying "Does Not Compute!"


"But k-man!! we have so many facts that the Gov't supplied us, that show the plane crashed there and that other planes took down the Trade Center towers. Look, a black box! Look, DNA. Look, cell-phone calls made from the airplanes [oops, ignore that...], look, molten steel burning at the World Trade Center weeks after the fires went out [oops, ignore that], look, Mineta's testimony under oath [hey, not in the 9-11 commission report, they ignored it, why don't you]."

Sheesh, SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF, you're getting good at it.

Only we're not in a Hollywood movie folks.



Oh damn you Riley, you got me going again...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
"May I speak your Honor?"

"Yes, go ahead please."

"You see, Sir, everybody inside and outside this courtroom knows that nobody in Washington is able to keep a secret. That, Sir, is the reason why we never tested the World Trade Center building debris for thermite, Sir.

...

Oh what was that you said, Sir, about the Gulf of Tonken??"


Riley, what I am saying is that there should be a full, transparent, in-depth inquiry into the events, the lead-up to, and the aftermath, of what happened on 9-11. The 9-11 Commission is a joke. They glossed over many facts, witness testimonies, physical evidence, and more. The commission was loaded with stoolies from the administration that prevented the real goings on from being disclosed and brought to light.

In short, I believe that there are still unidentified criminals at larger who either participated in or covered up the happenings of that day.


There, I answered your question. Now please answer one for me:

If the final 9-11 Commission Report contains one or more lies or untruths, would it sully for you the final conclusions made in the report?

Bonus question:

If the 9-11 Commission Report does contain lies or untruths, can you explain to me why that is OK?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
Riley, I hate (love?) to tell you. That Popular Science article was torn to shreds by folks who did the math.

Then, PS tried to refute the findings, but it fell totally flat.

True.



But don't take my word for it, please do some of your own research.




EDIT:

Obviously folks do agree on how they fell because that is what many engineers figured out in the first few days...


Riley, these must be the guys you're talking about:

Engineers and Architects for 9/11 Truth
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 28, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
You can find out how these groups are tied to other large globalist, and the media. It goes on and on, and it isn't just as simple as give me the facts. You need to dig for peieces of the puzzle, and take it back as far as you want. It will begin to explain a whole lot more than 9/11. That is the truth.


That's a whole new thread right there, but I hear ya, dude!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 06:27pm PT
The Bush admin is why the 9-11 Commission Report contains lies?
Is that what you're saying?
Seriously??


I beg you to think about your answer.




Riley, 15 minutes. Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw&feature=player_embedded#!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
"It wasn't a b52 that crashed into the World Trade Centres- it was a 757 full of jet fuel.
There is a huge difference.
How many thousands of pounds of jet fuel?"


No plane crashed into WTC Building 7, that's what the video that you watched twice addresses.

Did you catch the part where the official NIST story for the collapse of WTC Building 7 was "fires fueled by office furnature"? (minute 3:45)

Or, did you catch the part where the entire building was in free-fall for the first 100 feet?

Impressive office fires, yes? Or, lies?? Which is more likely?

Do you know how fast the jet fuel in the WTC towers burned out, and that jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel? You know, like the molten steel that was buried under the centers for WEEKS.

For me, this doesn't float.

It's OK if you want to ignore the anomalies, most people don't want to think about it.

Oh, and the 9-11 Commission was supposed to be independent of the WH administration, that's why I asked you to think more carefully about your response to my Yes/No question.


Kool-Aid bro. It's cheap and plentiful.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
ha, ok. No more Kool-Aid.

On jet fuel burning temperature (my emphasis):

"No scientist, engineer, or investigator has ever claimed that the steel support beams of the WTC melted from the fire. The heat of the fire did soften the steel that was exposed by the crash, making it more bendy and unable to support the full weight of the floors above. This happens long before the steel turns to liquid. This whole steel-melting argument is a strawman that the conspiracy theorists bring up every time in order to support their fantasies"

This from here: http://community.yourdiscovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/95010646/m/216104783

On jet fuel burning temps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel

On steel: Steel melts at around 1370 degrees C

Jet fuel is only hot enough to soften the metal.



Now that is odd, because there are photos (and eye witnesses) of melted steel. How did it get so hot to melt??

If you watch the entire video I posted, you will see samples of melted steel from WTC B7, which was caused by "office furniture fire."

OK, once again I'm gonna try and leave this one lay as it is.

Cheers...


EDIT:

Sorry, one last thing:

Your the guy trying to prove a wild conspiracy....not me..

I am not trying to prove anything other than to show why the Official Story does not hold water for me. I am asking for a real investigation, not a dummied-up one.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 28, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
Dingus, " John Salathe was a rap bolter". That's disturbing news. Who would ever have thought?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
Flight 175 went straight into the 81st floor of the South Tower, the NIST report provides no description of what was on the 81st floor. Not even one word. How odd.

Then, out of the blue, a former bank employee came forward, a person who had visited the 81st floor on a weekly basis.

His information explains more than he probably thought and provides us with a major clue about what really happened on 9-11.

Fuji Bank had torn up the 81st floor, he said, and stripped it down to reinforce the trusses so that the floor could hold more weight.

Then they had built a raised floor and filled the entire floor with server-size Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS) batteries.

These units were bolted to the raised floor which stood about 3 feet above the reinforced 81st floor.

Beneath the raised floor ran the cables and power supply that connected the army of batteries.

IT techies had to get down on all fours and crawl around beneath the raised floor to connect cables.

"The whole floor was batteries," he said, "huge battery-looking things." They were "all black" and "solid, very heavy" things that had been brought in during the night.

They had been put in place during the summer prior to 9-11, he said. But were they really batteries? "It's weird," he said. "They were never turned on." So, what really was on the 81st floor of WTC 2? What was in these heavy "battery-looking things?" Were they batteries, or were they Thermite?

The whole floor was full of batteries that were never turned on. Where they heavy packets of Thermite made to look like batteries?

Only senior Information Technology (IT) personnel from Fuji Bank, or the Japanese banks affiliated with it, had access to the 81st floor computer room, according to the source.

"Nobody worked on that floor," the source said about Floor 81.

The whole floor was taken up with a "whole bunch of batteries" and "enclosed server racks" that were so tall that one could not see over the top of them. The enclosed server racks were locked and the only people who could open them were employees of the Shimizu Corp., he said.

Didn't the host of NIST scientists think that was worthy of mention? They either did not know that the 81st floor was full of "battery-looking things" or decided not to mention it. How odd.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
Hey Mr. Riley,
I feel bad about my somewhat smug reply to your post about my question, whre I said:

Seriously??


I beg you to think about your answer.


I wish I had been more courteous and straightforward in my reply instead letting my flip side take over. After all, I consider you a stand-up guy and, if we lived in the same neighborhood, I'd hope we'd be good friends.

This 9-11 topic makes my blood pressure boil. I see so many obvious distortions of the truth, and the actions taken in the aftermath of the attacks have had horrendous effects. So I'd like to show show a better side and say thanks for holding up a decent conversation.



FYI, the link you provide to the Popular Mechanics rebuttal article leads to a piece that is more of a whack op/ed than it is a rebuttal to the assertions made in the PM article. However, that opinion piece does link to this better-researched rebuttal to the PM article:

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/#planes

There are a couple of worthwhile 9-11 Truther sites (they give weight to evidence on all sides of the argument), and I think this is one of them.
Cheers...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 28, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
Werner,

I worked with the Sika Brothers. Their company, Sika Electric was bought out by ABM (American Building Maintenance) about 18 months before 9-11. I ran National accounts for the division that bought them (Amtec Lighting) till about August of that year and spoke to them weekly at least.

150- to 200 union electricians worked for him in those buildings. One of the brothers spent most of his time there. They had several shops set up at different levels of all three buildings. If someone was building a server room there, they would have had to employ them due to the exclusive contract they had. The ABM building engineers would have had to approve ANY modifications to the building, especially if heavy floor loading was involved. There were also several hundred ABM janitorial staff employed there. They knew who was in and out of the building at odd hours right down to who was having an affair with whom.

All the electricians made it out, but they lost several building engineers and a couple of dozen janitors.

More fairy tales from the conspiracy loons!



What you are describing sounds exactly like every telephone switch or CO-LO facility I've ever been in. There's a whole row of buildings down in the skid row area of LA that look just like old office buildings. They are specially structurally reinforced and empty of employees, just servers, AC units, UPS units and lots of batteries.
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 09:17am PT
^^ROFLMAO^^
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 29, 2011 - 09:32am PT
To add to what TGT said, that sounds exactly like what I would expect a large bank's data center to look like. Batteries for a large UPS system are lots and lots of big black things. And servers are normally in tall racks in cages. and generally few people are let into those rooms. Everything described would be normal for a data center.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:11am PT
it's not like there's just a couple little things, coz. there's a whole avalanche of things. want a smoking gun? there are about 45 of them, said david ray griffin seven years ago, and we're still counting.

it's been awhile since our last go-around on this, when poor klimmer and rokjox fought the lonely fight. now it seems that more people are listening. i find it interesting that john bachar, whom i had never met, was fighting this fight as well.

david ray griffin--to quote largo, "sharp dude, but then he went south with all that 9/11 conspiracy jibberish".

careful about your compass. north isn't always the right direction.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:42am PT
Maybe the plane ran into Santa's sleigh.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:43am PT
"The board believes the perception of an elephant in our living room is spurious and based on questionable research."
dirtbag

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:46am PT
Wow...this horseshit again?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:22am PT
WTC Building 7 was completely left out of the 9/11 Commission Report. There was such an uproar that the Officials had to respond in some way. First FEMA has a shot, and when their report fell flat, they gave the job to NIST.

The NIST report remains the Official Account of what happened to WTC Bld 7.

Their conclusion: The building was brought down by office furniture fire.

That's it, case closed.

The US Gov't claims that small office furniture fires brought down a 47-story modern steel structure.

People like monolith, mimi, TGT, DMT, Riley, Ron Anderson, Jaytee, Dirtbag, and thousands of others buy this story.


So grim is the result of people willing to buy whatever the Gov't tells them that we now have Homeland Security, the absolute loss of rights (remember when we said "Guilty until proven innocent"?), and a war machine that is eating us out of house and home. Terrorists, the enemy, are *everywhere* and unstoppable because they are not tied to any nation state. Fear people, FEAR!



Look at WTC Bld 7 folks. For the first 100' of the collapse, the entire building was in free fall. What does this mean?

This means that the entire building experienced Zero Resistance to gravity, simultaneously throughout the building.

Think about that for a couple of seconds. The entire building experienced total collapse at the same rate as a bowling ball dropped from the top.

Office furniture fire, people. Can you believe it?


And you folks think it's fun to call us in search of the truth "loons."

Whoa boy.
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:31am PT
Interesting, no 9/11 first responders, nor family, will be allowed to attend the 10 year anniversary of 9/11.

You are not the sharpest knife in the drawer are ya NWO?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:39am PT
Ron, your site is not what the US Gov't claims.

So, you are not believing what the Gov't says, but what some independent folks put together, right?


Why do you think the US Gov't didn't put forth causes portrayed in your link?


Read the NIST report and you will have your answer. (Hint: because that theory has been shown to be hogwash.)


EDIT: Who is Wikipedia, Riley?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:49am PT
fact is that all of this conspiracy stuff has gone absolutly no where- other than internet blogs some of which are simply retarded. Had there been ANY proof positive, it would have been in court.



The fact is, there are scores of books, lectures, videos, even officials from other states who want to see an independent investigation.

To say that this the 9/11 Truth movement is only on internet blogs shows just how unaware you are.

There have been suits, many of them. And yes, they go nowhere, as expected. Because in reality, you cannot sue the Gov't, they are too powerful and they're the ones who provide the courts.

Oh yes, I must be crazy to think that our US courts deal out anything but absolutely pure justice. Just like in the Valery Plame case, the Goldman Sachs toxic asset scandal, on and on.


The US Gov't contends small office fires brought down WTC Bld 7. Who are you going to believe, them or the blogs you point me to?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:51am PT
blng 7 was by all accounts from the scene,

This is a bald-faced lie.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
I find this pretty interesting.

The US Gov't provides a report detailing why WTC Bld 7 collapsed.

But, in your gut, you know that office furniture fires could not really be the cause of such a spectacular collapse.

So you turn to the internet and find blogs that support your point of view.


Whaaa, I want to believe my internet blog, and not yours.



In the end, what you are saying is that you don't believe what the US Gov't spoon fed you, so you are smart enough to look elsewhere for answers. And Look! You found the answer that you wanted to see.

Oh, you so smart!


You figured out a way to not believe the Gov't, yet have everything still be nice and neat.


But there is a small problem. You are still calling the Gov't liars.

Funny that, no?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
"Oh, but the Gov't is to big and cumbersome to figure out the real answer to Buld 7, so they made up some BS. What we need is some independent thinkers to really solve this difficult problem that the Gov't can't seem to handle.

There, all better now. There's a blog that did it for us.

The Gov't would never willfully and knowingly lie to us."




For the first 100' of the collapse, the entire building was in free fall.

Simultaneously throughout the building, there was ZERO resistance.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Aug 29, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
Just saw the full Bush 9/11 interview on Nat Geo last night.

He was totally believable in his recounting of shock, dismay, confusion, anger, looking for answers.

Waaaaay more convincing than much of the stuff he said when in office.

There is just no way that the whole classroom deer in the headlights look, high speed limo, flight to Barksdale AFB, then Offut AFB, taping of a statement, flight to DC, being run through the White House to a bunker when a stray f-16 flew over the capitol in the middle of the night was all a perfect set-up. No way.

He didn't know sh#t.

But there is no convincing those who want there to be a conspiracy.
Forest

Trad climber
Denver, CO
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
My wife has a friend who was in the pentagon parking lot on 9/11 who saw the plane (with wings!) hit the building.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
Jolly (and others) - I work with, socialize with, climb with, and study alongside with Shock Physics (Blast), Fire, and Structural Engineers, some of whom where directly involved with the 9-11 reports, including testing, and of which these results are online and available for YOU to look at.

The conspiracy theories are 100% garbage. Seriously. There is no need to find the "truth" - all this stuff is available. Just like there is no need to investigate whether aliens killed JFK, Godzilla is causing global warming, or missiles were actually invented in the Middle Ages.

I will not waste my time responding to you - the information is widely, widely available. Please get a new hobby, maybe you could do some good for the world with all that energy.

And gee, interesting that I know several victims and family and friends of victims, and hmmm, not a single one wants the government to "reinvestigate". Seriously... one of my cousins literally attended dozens of funerals.
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
Riley, that "baby on the pavement" (really tacky by the way) in this case just happens to be the working colleagues, for many decades of many of those first responders. I think they would be considered welcome guests of the families on that front row bench.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
Jesse Ventura's TV Show Conspiracy Theory by all accounts was an excellent show. I would like to see it return with new episodes. It is the conscience that our country needs in these dire times.

He did a great job with The Pentagon on 9-11-2001. He is a very brave American hero for doing what he is doing. Do not question his patriotism. He's a Patriot True and Blue: Navy SEAL UDT, and the former Governor of Minnesota. He wants to know the truth. And I think ultimately everyone does. Asking the hard questions and dissent is patriotic. It makes our country better. It brings true criminals to justice. It rights wrongs. The World wants us to take care of our own house first.


Conspiracy Theory with Gov. Jesse Ventura- 911 Pentagon Attack (Full Episode)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrZ14NRbT-s&feature=player_embedded



Because many have adult ADD especially those who love high risk adventure sports such as climbing I'm giving an outline to go with it to help you:

We now know . . .

1. NORAD stand down from the highest levels at The White House, heard on official government transmissions.

2. It was first reported that a missile hit the Pentagon heard on official government transmissions.

3. Norman Mineta's thorough eyewitness testimony of being in The White House Bunker with VP Dick Cheney reconfirming the stand-down order with a USAF personnel.

4. Missile hit the Pentagon.

5. All security camera tapes that recorded whatever hit the Pentagon where confiscated within a short amount of time of the event occurring.

6. The Arab terrorists/patsies didn't have the flight experience. HH couldn't even rent a Cessna. The instructor wouldn't allow it. He had paltry skills and knowledge.

7. Flights simulations within a 757 even with experienced commercial pilots that have 757 experience show the flight of AA flight 77 couldn't be done. At the speeds reported by the Black Box and within the 9-11 Commission Report, the wings would have been ripped off.

8. Donald Rumsfeld on 9-10-2001 announces in a press conference that 2.3 Trillion dollars can not be accounted for in The Pentagon expenditures. Amazingly, the Pentagon finance office tracking all of this is hit dead center on 9-11-2001.

9. Faked phone calls from flight 77. FBI has already admitted in a court of law that Barbara Olsen never made contact with Ted Olsen.

10. Again over 120 knots over the max speed of the operating limits of the 757 would have ripped the wings off of AA Flight 77.

11. Only Pentagon personnel bodies were found at the Pentagon on 9-11-2001. Bodies of passengers of AA Flight 77 were identified at Dover, about 140 miles away.

12. April Gallop, military personnel, Pentagon eye-witness walks out the hole in the Pentagon with her baby. she didn't see anything that indicated a massive jet crash had occurred anywhere at the Pentagon. She is visited at the hospital by military personnel and basically told what she saw and what to say. She is suing the US government and key personnel. She has been harassed and threatened.

13. No real debris at the Pentagon crash-site or "Pentalawn" as can be seen in the earliest video now available. This video is not shown in the MSM.

14. The original hole in the Pentagon is too small for a 757, and the damage is completely inconsistent of a aviation crash-site of a massive jet of that size. However, the damage is consistent with something smaller such as a missile.

15. Again, the phone calls from flight 77 could have easily been faked. They did not occur as reported. The technology is easily available even in 2001.

16. Means, motive, and opportunity . . .

17. AA Flight 77 disappeared from RADAR for 28 minutes.

18. No phone calls from Barbara Olsen to Ted Olsen occurred. 0 minute contact time.

19. The FBI has admitted in court that there where no phone calls from AA Flight 77 that made contact. 0 minutes.

20. It is easy to be duped by fake phone calls. The technology exists and existed in 2001. Morphing a voice to match anyone else's voice is now very easy to do. It's demonstrated just how easy it is to do.

21. The Pentagon hit was an inside job and perfect pretext for War, and a great way to hide and render undiscoverable the missing 2.3 Trillion dollars lost by The Pentagon. What are the odds that the jet would exactly hit dead-center the Pentagon Finance office tracking all the monies? And no-one would talk about on MSM Rumsfeld's 9-10-2001 press conference ever again.

22. Why can't we see all the confiscated and unreleased security camera footage from 9-11-2001?

23. The 9-11 Commission was duped.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
This is from the guy that believes there's a big space-boat on the other side of the moon.....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
Can you guys ever get out of your ad hominem attack rut?

Really.

Stick to 9-11 and the facts known.



Watch the show for yourselves. I've held your hand long enough.


He goes to the source, the eye-witnesses brave enough to tell the truth.
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
When I want the facts, I always check with Jesse Ventura!!!

Between Jesse, Glen Beck, and Bill O'Reilly, you've pretty much got the "facts" covered........aaarrrrggghhhh!!!!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
All AA flight 77 passengers are vaporized, yet the Pentagon personnel bodies are all found and accounted for. How come?

"Yes, we found the DNA of the passengers of AA Flight 77 at the Pentagon, please believe us."


"And also please beleive us when we say that Barbara Olsen called her husband Ted Olsen from AA Flight 77 and that she told him the terrorists over came the aircraft with box-cutter knives."


Well, one of those is an outright lie, verified in a US Court of Law by the FBI. Yet, you want me to think everything else about 9-11-2001 and The Pentagon as reported is true?


I laugh.


Edit:

And then I cry for my country.
Gene

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
I laugh.


So are many others.......
Gene

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
If the 9/11 Omniscient Insider Perps (OIPs) have the ability to plan, carry out and cover their tracks so thoroughly, they obviously have the skills to control and manipulate information and communication. So why are they allowing the skeptics to post doubts in public? The only answer I can come up with is that the OIPs want the skeptics to disseminate certain preapproved ‘facts.’ It’s brilliant! A false flag wrapped up in a false flag. It keeps us sheeple away from the real truth. This onion has many skins and the OIPs are leading the skeptics onto the wrong path without anyone outside of the conspiracy knowing it. The skeptics are doing the OIPs’ work for them.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
The NIST report on WTC Bld 7 is totally flawed, so says Ron Anderson because he links us to a blog that describes a totally incongruous reason for the building's collapse.

His reason that NIST got it wrong:

imo the MEDIA was as much to blame for any confusion.


Perfect man, just perfect.



Hey, who cares if the 9-11 Commission Report has lies and untruths. We know what happened. We don't need any Gov't reports telling us what occurred, it is So Obvious.


Obvious as a 47-story building in complete free fall.
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
WTC7 took 14+ seconds to collapse. Hardly free fall(about 7 seconds). Truther's like to ignore the east penthouse collapsing into the building, before the facade gave way.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
WTC7 took 14+ seconds to collapse.

Source?

I've seen lots of video that include the start of the penthouse collapse.

And I think this claim is another lie.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:15pm PT
But really, who gives a snot about bldng 7?


In other words: k-man, you got me on that argument of yours, so here you can see me running away.
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:15pm PT
Here ya go K-Man, like it would have any impact on you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G86yuunRBIw
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
Wow, take a good look at the film boys.

They show the penthouse collapse at 55 seconds, and then again at 105 seconds. But, in both of these cuts, they immediate stop the footage, not letting you see what happens just after the penthouse collapse.

Why is that important?

Well, because it's a good trick that doesn't let you see the real time of the collapse from these very good camera angles. Instead, they use a real fuzzy view for their countdown sequence.

So OK, let's look at the fuzzy footage where they time the collapse.

First, I believe they start the countdown a second or two before any movement in the tower. But OK, no big deal. But then watch closely during the countdown...Watch especially the smoke.

Do you see what I see?

The video is slowed down during the countdown.

Go ahead, compare the smoke in a real-time video to the smoke you see in the countdown video.

I know, you won't admit it, but that's OK, I don't care.

Suspend your disbelief, then tell my you believe the Official Story. Except for the parts that you don't believe and use annonomous blogs to bolster your story. Ignore facts (like the molten steel and melted iron in Bld 7), and tell me the Gov't got their reporting wrong because they were confused. Which is ok, they're only human. But, you still believe what they told you, even though you admit they were too flustered to get it right.

Whew, now there's some real transparent critical thinking!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
I stand corrected.

I count 12 seconds for the complete collapse, from start to finish.

Yes, this does prove to me that office fires were indeed the cause of this failure.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
Like I said before LIHOP and MIHOP.

It took both together to make 9-11-2001 happen for the full effect to take place.



Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1OW7b-oug

Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq [Paperback]
Susan Lindauer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Prejudice-Terrifying-Story-Patriot/dp/1453642757

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
All of Klimmer's comments need to be placed in perspective.

This is a man who believes in spaces ships on the moon, aliens visiting earth, and a very strange creation mythology. None of his opinions or statements should be taken seriously if you value intelligent discourse.


Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 29, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
It's "Great Googily Moogily".
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
All of Klimmer's comments need to be placed in perspective.

This is a man who believes in spaces ships on the moon, aliens visiting earth, and a very strange creation mythology. None of his opinions or statements should be taken seriously if you value intelligent discourse.


Port,

Sorry you are soooo far behind.

Catch-up while we still have time.




Prove that there isn't a spaceship on the Moon that Apollo 15, Apollo 17, and maybe Apollo 20 (???), and even the the NASA MLO and the Lunar Japanese remote sensing/imaging camera system Sylene all have taken a plethora of images of that massive ship that can be viewed in 3D stereo. Even at least one NASA Apollo astronaut has confirmed there is a massive spaceship on the backside of the Moon.

You better read Leslie Kean's Book on UFOs. Many countries/governments are disclosing the truth of UFOs. Do I beleive they are Aliens from a distant star or from another galaxy? No. I believe they are intra-terrestials and can move between dimensions. They are pretending to be something they are not. The Good Book says Lucifer can appear as an Angel of Light. In other words, he can appear to be something he is not. Jesus himself said the last days would be like the Days of Noah. Better find out about the Days of Noah. (Hint: falling Angels mating with Earthly women and the entire Earth going to Hell in a Handbasket very fast with unbeleivable evil abounding. Kind of sounds like modern abductions that have been very much documented all over the World, not to mention the abundant evil that abounds.)

Creation mythology: not as you think of it. I believe in Theistic Evolution. Same time line. Same evolution, but with GOD stepping in at times and directing where it goes. You should read The Science of GOD by physicist Gerald Schroeder.

You better be able to accept the founding fathers of modern science for who they were. They were all men of faith, and they did brilliant science to boot.





Try to stay on topic. We are talking about 9-11-2001 on this thread. Stop with the attacks. I can accept you don't think or beleive as I do. I really don't attack you personally. So stop with the childish behavior.
fosburg

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 05:04pm PT
Wade is right. I just saw Zappa plays Zappa last night and those were the exact words. Oh, and anyone who thinks a 757 crashed into the pentagon is on glue. Step right up...
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
Ok, you all got me.

I'm one of "THEM".

You're right, it was an insider job. You see, we've developed enhanced RayGun technology from one of the spaceships stored at Area 51. And this RayGun technology can both take down buildings *and* look like airplanes *and* start a nuclear reaction on the bottom of a pile to make it smolder for months *and* even time travel, so we can make up the existence of people supposedly on those planes *and* plant the existence of those people in your minds, all before the event.

But we forgot to sabotage all the video cameras, and when the Pentagon RayGun malfunctioned and didn't look like an airplane, the FBI had to run around and confiscate the video. Oopsy.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:30pm PT
No doubt there is plenty to complain about regarding Obama, but he didn't start this fire, Bush & The Neocons did.



They "TPTB" knew what was going to happen and they used it to their advantage to accomplish what they wanted: LIHOP

Also they "TPTB" knew what they had to do to make it happen: MIHOP


**Eric Rockefeller revealed to Aaron Russo what the NWO wants and that something big was going to happen to be the pretext to go war and invade Afghanistan and Iraq before 9-11-2001.


**Lt. Mike Vreeland from the Pentagon revealed while jailed in Canada that 9-11-2001 would occur and what the events would be. He wrote this down and sealed it in an envelope and gave it to the Canadian authorites. They opened it after 9-11-2001 occurred. This has been verified in Canadian court.


**Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer reveals that US intelligence knew very specifically that the WTC towers would be attacked by aircraft before 9-11-2001 and she shares all the specific details and more. She was held in prison for 5 years by our US govenment on a Texas military base in attempts to silence her.



All of this verifies LIHOP and MIHOP.




Eric Rockefeller Reveals 9/11 FRAUD to Aaron Russo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA&feature=related



A White Knight Talking Backwards
SPY CASE IN CANADIAN COURTS SUGGESTS US NAVAL OFFICER HAD FOREKNOWLEDGE OF 9-11
by Michael C. Ruppert, Author of Crossing The Rubicon
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_25_02_revised_012802_vreeland.html
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_28_02_vreeland.jpg



Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1OW7b-oug

Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq [Paperback]
Susan Lindauer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Prejudice-Terrifying-Story-Patriot/dp/1453642757






"Spies Knew"
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
It's clear that if you looked to the grassy knoll in Dealy Plaza, Dallas, you would have seen a 2nd missile fired by Jack Ruby hit the Pentagon. He was really shooting at Big Foot, but missed.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
Ron,

You are very naive. You actually think we have freedom of press. That went out with the fairness doctrine. They continually squash real news all the time in MSM.

News stations in MSM are all Corporate owned. Corporations have extreme biases and cover-up the truth for their selfish motives.

All cases of true crimes brought to trial in court against TPTB are quickly squashed as well.

Have you not been paying attention to anything?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:55pm PT
All orchestrated by these two!

Dingus, I don't know of anybody who things Bush and Cheney orchestrated 9-11. At least I certainly don't.



Riley, to answer your question, yes, this topic does remind me of others where science is being ignored.

From the wikipedia page you referenced:

According to the group, and NIST themselves who considered it unnecessary, NIST did not look for physical evidence of explosives[26][42] and did not include the eyewitness accounts from first responders and from people who escaped the buildings in their investigation.[51] The organization also alleges that much of the physical evidence, apart from a few selected samples of the steel, would have been destroyed.[42]

For real science to take place, you have to test for the most likely cause, which NIST purposely did NOT do. I have a problem with this. The steel in the WTC buildings was liquid. Why not test for the only possible explanation for this level of heat.

I know you cannot explain that one, without telling me that controlled demolition was ruled out because of prejudice (i.e. prejudging the result), which is NOT scientific.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
Also, are you 'truthers' denying a bunch of crazy arabs crashed planes into the towers?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
Dingus, I'll be forthright and say that I do believe that there was a cover up of the 9-11 events (did I fool you?). I believe there are many levels of planning and complacency associated with those events.

I believe the planning for such an event was years in the making, long before W took office. It's my belief that the real folks in power don't come and go with WH administrations. Remember, those in the military and who control the black budget aren't elected.

I am open to any scenario, however, and even the Official Story can be possible. But we will never know without a real investigation that doesn't hide facts, evidence, testimony, and real science.

Even the believers on this site have shown no love for the Official Story as told by the 9-11 Commission Report. They point to blogs to explain events, blogs that contradict the Official Story. Yet they are firm in their belief that the Official Story is correct and true. Amazing, no?

Cell phone calls from airplanes. Ah, minor lie.
Dismissal of melted steel at the WTC. Ah, any office fire could do that, what's the gripe?

On and on, the pure Suspension of Disbelief. You have to have it to swallow the Official Story. Yet look at all these folks that are so stone certain that The Story is the only way it could have happened.


Sorry Riley, but Kool-Aid. It's cheap and plentiful.

And I'll stop saying that as soon as you explain the molten steel at the World Trade Center, weeks after the fires were out.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
ssso the drift 'o' the thread is now bldng 7 since the whole "not a plane" thing has gone "up in smoke"?

Well Ron, I stopped perusing that path because nobody wanted to overlay the outline of a 757 on top of the over-sized Pentagon image that monolith posted a while back.

I figured all you believers fled the scene because you realized that there was no way a 757 could have caused the damage that occurred at that site.

But I'm willing to keep discussing if you want. Are you going to show us the overlay?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
There are one of two responses...

a. SEE! WE TOLD YOU SO! or....
b. LIARS!!!!1111111

Cheers
DMT


Good point.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
k-man, really, you'll stop? AWESOME... here ya go...

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
Ron, you mean your sketch that wasn't to scale?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:25pm PT
Cleo, your link explains the melted steel by denying it existed.

To finish, none of these stories prove there was molten (as in liquid) steel at the WTC. There's no evidence temperatures were hot enough to produce that (whatever the energy source), and some of the stories claiming "molten steel" have built-in implausibilities.

So, this report ignores eye witnesses, and photos. There is a picture of liquid steel flowing out of the WTC tower. Hard to deny. Sorry.


Maybe you havea picture of Atta flying the plane. You know, there is no proof that he actually flew it, right?


Keep drinking cleo, the Kool-Aid is plentiful.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
"The truth always passes through three stages; First, it is ridiculed, Second, it is violently opposed and finally, it is accepted as self-evident."
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
I have made cell phone calls from aircraft while in the air.

Really Dingus, in 2001 you made high-altitude cell phone calls?
Impressive to say the least.


Also, a scientific study is one that can be reproduced.

So, let's go with Werner and fire up that 757!
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
Ah, I see we're in the

b. LIARS!!!!1111111

camp!!!




But wait, I thought there was no plane? I mean, at the Pentagon? But instead, there was somebody else flying a plane at the WTC? Wait, I'm confused, which is it, missiles or planes? Why would they change strategies?

Oh right, the raygun malfunctioned, forget I confessed that...


P.S. I've made high altitude phone calls too. Not hard. Yes, before 2001. Because that's when I was working and flying a lot, I haven't flown much since 2003.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
Yeti was spotted on the Pentagon lawn just before the explosion. Connection?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
cleo, your web page is very telling, because the only way to explain the melted steel is by denying it existed at all.

It's not there, so no problem.

However, there is a problem because there is video of liquid steel flowing out of the WTC towers.


This is the problem that I have with a lot of the Official Story, it cherry picks the evidence it wants to use to bolster The Story.

High-altitude cell phone calls. OK you guys, get real. Type this into Google for a little research:

9-11 high-altitude cell phone calls

Read the page-upon-page of reports that say it didn't work in 2001.

But now we have two miracles right here on SuperTopo. Amazing.





EDIT: This is going nowhere. The believers will believe anything the Gov't tells them (unless a blog better supports their pre-judged opinion). Versus the 9-11 Truth Movement who has eye-witness, photos, and other sources of evidence that are glossed over.

As someone who does not believe the Official Story as presented, I would like to see answers to some of the hard questions. Like, cloe, how come the molten steel. The list is very long and telling, and for all the things to happen as stated in the Official Story, well it wouldn't be one or two minor miracles, it's be many Major miracles, all compressed into one morning. Id's sooner believe that I'll hit the lottery twice in a row.

So have at it folks. Keep posting up web sites that contradict the US Gov't story in an attempt to prove their story is correct. Like Werner said, the truth will out.


PS. Thanks Dingus for your reply!

Cheers all...
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
AMAZING!!!!

b. LIARS!1111111

Yep, I'm lying about the cell phone. Nope, never ever got a kick out of freaking out colleagues by doing just that way back in them olden days. Nope, didn't learn to do it when someone else did it to me way back then. I even remember exactly which someone (a client) and why we were flying together (we did it twice a week during Summer 2001). But anyway, I'm lying! Must be!

(actually, i have no idea what this has to do with your nutty theories, but you keep mentioning it...)
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
Nearly all of the calls were made using airphones. You know, the back of the seat variety. Only a few came from cell phones, in known cell phone corridors. Why would the NWO fake both kinds, when they could just fake the airphone ones?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth.

Klimmer pulls a good one out from deep in the murk.

You guys are wasting your time arguing about the cell phone stuff.

It's not even important and all you'll do is get swallowed up in the murk.

The real deal good stuff is all coming out bit by bit.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 29, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
Werner's right. The cell phone thing is just one small egg in a huge omelet.

OK, you brought me back.

It cannot be proved that the planes did, or did not, have in-flight phones. American Airlines has stated that their planes did not have 'em, but then with all the hoobaloo, they came back and said "Well, maybe one or two of our planes had them, we really don't know."


cleo, sorry if it seemed like I said you were a liar. Well, I said you experienced a miracle, I didn't really say you were a liar.


That was not directly saying you were a liar, like the page you posted where it basically says that all who saw molten steel at the WTC site were liars. You know, it denied that there was melted steel... Even though video of melted steel is all over the place.
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
Dang, the NWO is stupid. Faking airphone calls on planes with no airphones. Amazing they haven't been caught yet. I guess the airlines and all those maintenance personel and aircrew are in on the conspiracy as well.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 10:03pm PT
The only guy who's talking about conspiracy is you mono and your tool friends.

The rest of us are just interested in the reading in the many interesting subject matters on this.

We can think for ourselves very well unlike you who only needs to ridicule everything at every turn that doesn't jive with your stupid tool mentality.

monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
Doesn't take much to realize how stupid an idea it is that the planes had no airphones Warner. Sorry to have to point out the obvious. Apparently, K-man can't think for himself.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
You guys are wasting your time arguing about the cell phone stuff.

It's not even important and all you'll do is get swallowed up in the murk.

Yeah, that and common sense and logic. What happened to the people aboard the flight that is purported to have flown into the Pentagon??

Where is that plane at, if instead, it was a cruise missile? What happened to the people?

You people make no sense and cast unfounded theories that are ridiculous!
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 10:21pm PT
And where on that plane?

You're full of sh'it dude.

You weren't on that plane so you ultimately have no clue yourself.

You're buying exactly what you want just like everyone else according to what you want to believe that is handed to you .....
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
The phones were behind most of the seats, Warner. Don't you remember taking flights with them? I sure do.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
You're buying exactly what you want just like everyone else according to what you want to believe that is handed to you .....


Look in the mirror, Johnson.

What happened to the planes and the people aboard them? Cheney ate them?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 10:34pm PT
Like I said "You're an idiot".

I never mention anything about phones being there or not.

What conspiracy are you talking about anyway?

There's no Warner in this conversation.

If you're a stickler for facts get your facts straight before you shoot your mouth ....
apogee

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
"Cheney ate them?"

It might have happened that way...

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
Hey Werner, relax.

Geez....
monolith

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
Geebus Werner, you said 'and where on that plane'. Don't ya think that could easily be asking where on the plane the phones were. Relax dude.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
You people make no sense and cast unfounded theories that are ridiculous!


No that's your projection onto us.

For your information I didn't make any theories.

I said do the experiment.

What kind of investigators are you?

Pretty poor ones .....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
For your information I didn't make any theories.

Warner, (I did that just to piss you off), I disagree. You guys are using theories to support your illogical ideas of what happened. You thereby are using them to further, or prove, your point.

Yer entitled to yer opinion, I just disagree on this one.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:08pm PT
Kevin , pick the Bong up- sounds interesting and is what I thought was possible all along.
TY
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:08pm PT
Ho man! I was in bad shape Saturday....

Tummy full of hot-dogs unt bier, throw in a splash of ze hash.

Lights out, Bluey......
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
You guys are using theories to support your illogical ideas of what happened.

Another projection Bluey.

I don't have ideas.

I have no clue except for what's presented.

A good investigator looks at at everything presented.

When Bluey gets lost in the woods I'll just tell his wife and kids he lost his bong and he'll be back soon that's why we don't even need to search for him ......
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
Borg Warner? beware the Borg!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:09am PT
coz, if by "you guys" you mean me, no. I'm not saying that.

What I am saying is that I don't believe the Official Story and think it would be great to have a real investigation that wasn't lead by stooges of the administration, and where all evidence and eye-witness testimony was taken into account.

Why would the 9-11 commission ignore something as important as the testimony that Mineta gave under oath? Or the fact that the steel in the WTC buildings melted. Maybe that sits OK with you, but it doesn't sit well with me.


OK, I've said my piece on this thread and will start wasting my time elsewhere. However, I came back because something I said earlier didn't sit well with me, and I wanted to clear that up.

I made a comment about in-flight phones not being on the AA 757s, and that was from the sometimes-foggy memory that I posses. I wasn't exactly sure that what I stated was true, and I wanted to research the claim and apologize for any misinformation that I might have spewed.

So I did some research, and found this excellent page on the phone calls made from the planes on 9-11-2001, it talks about both cell phone coverage and in-flight phones. Read up on it if you're interested:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/amrarticle.html


In addition, there is this page, which addresses the same thing in a different manner:

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/analysis/phonecalls.html

To me, both these sites take an objective view. I apologize in advance if after reading these with an open mind, you find them to be slanted.


cloe, you really are lucky, to be able to make those cell phone calls from high-altitude planes in 2001 as you claim you did!

Cheers all!!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:27am PT
You don't need DNA from people on the plane. You just need to corrupt the results. Lots of ways to do that without anyone being the wiser.

Give the technician the correct sample from the persons home that you want to test for, and a sample from the site, people did die in the pentagon so there were samples, then while the tests are being done, change whichever results you need. The comparisons are done by computers. So just corrupt the computer and have it tell you whatever results you want.

None of this means I believe one way or the other. I'm just answering Coz's question.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:38am PT
Easy to see why O.J. walked reading this conspiracy nonsense. Must be slow in the Valley these days.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2011 - 11:15am PT
"Ninety-five percent of the work of the intelligence agencies around the world is deception and disinformation," von Bülow said, which is widely propagated in the mainstream media creating an accepted version of events.

"Journalists don't even raise the simplest questions," he said, adding, "those who differ are labeled as crazy."
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:33pm PT
No reason to argue about AA Flight 77 and cell phones or phones at all.

We already have come to the truth on the matter. The FBI told us in trial . . .

"trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called 20th hijacker. The evidence presented to this trial by the FBI included a report on phone calls from all four 9/11 flights. In its report on American Flight 77, the FBI report attributed only one call to Barbara Olson and it was an “unconnected call,” which (of course) lasted “0 seconds.”9 According to the FBI, therefore, Ted Olson did not receive a single call from his wife using either a cell phone or an onboard phone."


FBI: 9/11 cell phone calls from jets did not happen
http://www.zimbio.com/Ted+Olson/articles/6gELkGlBsd7/FBI+9+11+cell+phone+calls+jets+not+happen





There was an obvious stand down order coming from VP Dick Cheney.
When they didn't shoot down the fast craft approaching the Pentagon when they fully knew it and the military personnel under the WH bunker was counting down the distances with plenty of time to prevent it, and then asks Cheney if the orders still stands?, and Cheney says "They still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"

Well, the craft was never fired upon. It was allowed to strike the Pentagon. The order given was a stand down order. Plain and simple. No other explaination is possible.


911 Commission - Trans. Sec Norman Mineta Testimony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y
Mineta and the secret orders of Cheney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGI5BmNd7AE&NR=1




American Intelligence General, General Stubblebine Says 911 was a fraud
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slEM9aaLkYA&feature=related

General Stubblebine NOW, Lives in Latin America, in Remote area, [ WHY ?] was the top of USA intelligence gathering when he retired, He is the highest ranking retired General to investigate on 9-11.

And LISTEN to what he said, but was not reported by our American Media, but by Foreign Media, note the German Sub-titles. Americans are getting perpetual LIES spoon fed to them.

This retired General tells you truth. He has no reason to lie after a lifetime of service to the USA:
Pentagon not hit by a plane
WTC 7 brought down by Explosives
MEDIA is controlled



Onto the 9-11 Commission . . .

Truthers ask hard questions of Senator Bob Kerry, member of the 9-11 Commission, at an ESRI ARCGIS conference he was giving a speech at (ESRI the makers of the best GIS software in the World), with Jack Dangermond the CEO of ESRI standing near by. 9-11 Truth happens where ever you are . . .


9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey finally confesses 9-11 Commission could not do it's job - Part 1 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrqq2KxyWAs&NR=1
9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey finally confesses 9-11 Commission could not do it's job - Part 2 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fczMuxtOEU8&feature=watch_response_rev
9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey finally confesses 9-11 Commission could not do it's job - Part 3 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJWBcWAeAw&feature=player_embedded#!

9/11 Commissioner and ex Senator Bob Kerrey from Nebraska was asked at the end of this video and mentioned “We are dealing with a 30 year conspiracy” and claimed there was not enough time to properly investigate all the data.

He admits the truth of the conspiracy of 9-11 even reaches back all the way to the truth of the assasination of JFK. Amazing admonitions.




My President that they assassinated told us the truth . . . and they hated him for it. He was perhaps one of the last great Presidents of our Country.

JFK telling us the 911 truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxnpujfanUM&feature=related

RFK to Johnson: "Why did have my brother killed?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzWNDPx4Pm0&feature=related

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:39pm PT
Let's not forget this very recent news . . .



An Explosive New 9/11 Charge by Richard Clarke (OT)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1578896&msg=1578896#msg1578896

Coming up to the 10th Anniversary, it comes as no surprise to me and many others throughout the World who have really looked deep into the truth of 9-11-01, regardless of how painful it is:

LIHOP at a minimum, MIHOP at a maximum. I think some aspects of 9-11-01 were LIHOP, and then many aspects were MIHOP. It was both. So I think we really have LMIHOP.

Just look at what has happened since 9-11-01. Who has benefited? Who has gained? The Military-Industrial-Spy-Intelligence-Complex. Corporations. Bankers. Those who would want to bring about the NWO with authoritarian governments run rampant, and the purposeful weakening or potential loss of our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The severely weakened economy and the lose of many jobs and the attack on the American Middle Class and everything right, noble, and that purports to be about treating others with respect, and treating others with dignity, and treating others as you would want to be treated, "The Golden Rule" as Christ taught us, all of this works to the same very dark and sinister means, motive, and opportunity.




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x620176

An Explosive New 9/11 Charge (CIA tried to recruit 9/11 hijackers—then covered it up-Richard Clarke)

Edited on Thu Aug-11-11 07:28 PM by kpete
Source: The Daily Beast

An Explosive New 9/11 Charge
In a new documentary, former national-security aide Richard Clarke suggests the CIA tried to recruit 9/11 hijackers—then covered it up. Philip Shenon on George Tenet’s denial.
Aug 11, 2011 8:47 AM EDT


With the 10th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks only a month away, former CIA Director George Tenet and two former top aides are fighting back hard against allegations that they engaged in a massive cover-up in 2000 and 2001 to hide intelligence from the White House and the FBI that might have prevented the attacks.

The source of the explosive, unproved allegations is a man who once considered Tenet a close friend: former White House counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke, who makes the charges against Tenet and the CIA in an interview for a radio documentary timed to the 10th anniversary next month. Portions of the Clarke interview were made available to The Daily Beast by the producers of the documentary.

In the interview for the documentary, Clarke offers an incendiary theory that, if true, would rewrite the history of the 9/11 attacks, suggesting that the CIA intentionally withheld information from the White House and FBI in 2000 and 2001 that two Saudi-born terrorists were on U.S. soil—terrorists who went on to become suicide hijackers on 9/11.

............

Clarke says it is fair to conclude “there was a high-level decision in the CIA ordering people not to share information.” Asked who would have made the order, Clarke replies, “I would think it would have been made by the director,” referring to Tenet



Read more: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/11/september-11th-anniversary-richard-clarke-s-explosive-cia-cover-up-charge.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------


In a written response prepared last week in advance of the broadcast, Tenet says that Clarke, who famously went public in 2004 to blow the whistle on the Bush White House over intelligence failures before 9/11, has “suddenly invented baseless allegations which are belied by the record and unworthy of serious consideration.”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/62083444/Joint-Statement




Weird. This article from Vanity Fair
reference the same two guys but implies they received Saudi assistance. See p. 7.

They were Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi, both Saudis, both experienced jihadis—holy warriors—though still in their mid-20s. They entered the country through Los Angeles International Airport as early as January 15, 2000, with scant knowledge of the English language and zero experience of life in the West. The 9/11-commission report declared it “unlikely” that the pair “would have come to the United States without arranging to receive assistance from one or more individuals informed in advance of their arrival.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/08/9-11-2011-201108#


The CIA insisted to the 9/11 Commission and other government investigations that the agency never knew the exact whereabouts of the two hijackers, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar, inside the U.S.—let alone try to recruit them as spies.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/11/september-11th-anniversary-richard-clarke-s-explosive-cia-cover-up-charge.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:48pm PT
It all matters.

Massive crimes were committed against the US and the World in our name.

Our freedoms are at stake.

These massive evil, immoral, heinous, corrupt false-flag operations done by people without souls, who aren't even voted into office and perpetuate endless War and War profiteering for their own selfish gains have to be stopped.


These criminals need to be brought to justice.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:50pm PT

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x608735


Richard Clarke suspects CIA coverup on 9/11 hijackers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8lRlc0SLAg



Clip from new documentary: Who Is Rich Blee - via Secrecy Kills
http://www.youtube.com/user/FF4Films#p/u/3/ndXhnl-g6To


Clarke airs suspicions over Sept. 11 intel failures - Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/clarke-airs-suspicions-over-sept-11-intelligence-failures/2011/08/11/gIQAx33K9I_blog.html


The documentary, called “Who is Richard Blee?” and produced by FF4 Films, is timed to the 10th anniversary of the attacks. The Clarke interview is scheduled to appear for the first time Thursday night, on a PBS station in Colorado and on the Web site SecrecyKills.com. News of it was first reported in The Daily Beast.

Clarke says he now suspects the CIA hid its knowledge that two of the Sept. 11 hijackers had entered the United States because the agency had tried – and failed – to recruit them as informants.

Clarke acknowledged his theory is not based on any evidence in a forthcoming documentary, according to a copy of the interview provided to the Post. But he says it is “the only conceivable reason that I’ve been able to come up with” to explain why the CIA failed to inform the FBI or the White House of the would-be hijackers presence.

Clarke goes on to say he believes “there was a high-level decision in the CIA ordering people not to share information,” all but pointing a finger at the CIA Director at the time, George J. Tenet.


Related:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4957703
monolith

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
Airphones were designed to work with the European system, the freq pairs and protocols were not compatable with what existed at the time in most of THIS nation.

Jeebus, you are dumber than a rock, RockJox.

We had airphones in the US. I flew on planes with airphones, even made a call on one. If those planes had no airphones, then the airlines, maintenance personal and flight crews are in on the conspiracy.

"sush, don't tell anyone those planes did not have airphones", LOL

Here are the airphone records for Barbara Olsen including FBI reports.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Barbara_Olson_calls
dirtbag

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
monolith is an illuminati agent
monolith

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
Sux, doesn't it RockJox. There you are claiming airphones didn't work in the US.

It doesn't get any dumber than that.

You should dump the bottle RokJox, alcohol is eating away at your brain.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
Why do you people believe a one or two 6th-hand, dubious-quality, supposed eyewitness or expert or whatever reports from random internet blogs, instead of (for example), FIRST HAND reports from people right here on Supertopo?

For example, a brief and incomplete list from this tiny, miniscule thread ALONE yields:

TWO FIRST-HAND reports from people right here on SuperTopo that:

a) yes, indeed, cell phones can, do, and did work on airplanes in 2001.
b) seeing an actual airplane crash into the actual Pentagon.
monolith

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
Flight 77 had airphones. AA said they did not have them in 2004, Rokjox. Do you know that that is 3 years after 2001?

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/American_Airlines_Flight_77_Calls

Again, nearly all of the calls were made on airphones. Only a handful were on cell phones, just as one would expect.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
A) actually, it was possible. I, personally, made several phone calls from planes in summer of 2001, usually to check voicemail, and sometimes to tease/freak someone out, and was taught to do it by a colleague. It wasn't difficult, and it worked maybe half the time. This is backed up by DMT, right here on Supertopo. The reports saying it is "impossible" are highly, highly flawed, and just plain wrong.


B) Yep. Read the thread again. Two people chimed in. Don't remember who. Every single one of you conspiracy nuts did an awesome job of totally ignoring both comments. TOTALLY IGNORING!! It was really impressive, the ignoring!
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
These things HAVE been laid to rest.


You people keep digging up the old graves.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
as far as airphones go, the initial reports were that the calls were made mostly on cellphones--far less obtrusive in the presence of those bad-guy hijackers. a.k. dewdney, a prominent canadian scientist and longtime questioner of 9/11 "facts", did these same personal experiments around 2003 and found no possibility of making contact above 5,000 feet. this was on commercial airliners, not on top of peaks in the rockies with a straight line to banff. cellphone technology has improved since then, so it's easier to make contact in flight, although you're still not supposed to.

the common perception of all that may have changed now--it's quite a slippery slope the disinformation people have to tread, back-revising the news of the day. they love to gang up on simple facts with heavyweight "experts". rest assured that the comprehesive NIST report on building 7 was made by a native of india who came here to study engineering and who, i'm sure, was motivated by the highest patriotic interests to clear the good name of america, which did nothing but pave his way to success at the top of his field. i wonder what a hungrier home-grown engineer would have found. there are a good 1,000 of them signed on to a petition to investigate. the government itself threw up its hands for several years at explaining the building 7 collapse until they got this little gang of toadies together. you need imagination to cook up a fantasy that a single column--they even gave it a number--could collapse a grid structure framework like the key log in a logjam.

there is great faith in the short attention span. you've got building 7 all explained away, then some sumbuck comes up with light poles broken the wrong way at the pentagon. you get a few experts to testify that, yes, the partial vacuum behind an airliner could've got them to flip the wrong way, and then someone starts harping about all the market trading in put options for american and united before the attacks--just the sort of thing the CIA was developing software to detect, only here it was so obvious you didn't need software. then you get those little fires put out with wall street experts ("no big deal" they all say--and who are we to question experts?) and someone starts talking about microspheres of iron in the WTC dust.

the genius of this industry is that everyone forgets about the last thing that was talked about as soon as the next thing comes up. all you have to do is read a supertopo 9/11 thread to understand that.
monolith

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
Engineers at our primary Maintenance & Engineering base in Tulsa tell me that they cannot find any record that the 757 aircraft flown into the Pentagon on 9/11 had had its seatback phones deactivated by that date. An Engineering Change Order to deactivate the seatback phone system on the 757 fleet had been issued by that time... It is our contention that the seatback phones on Flight 77 were working because there is no entry in that aircraft’s records to indicate when the phones were disconnected.
John Hotard, Corporate Communications, American Airlines
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
I did some personal cell phone experiments in 2001, and found it was pretty easy to make calls. I'm 100% sure of the timing.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Aug 30, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
Assuming there was some grand conspiracy what was the point? What would we do about it anyway? Anyone who could pull something like that off is way smarter and more diabolical than any of us.

I think the real cover-ups are of the gross incompetence of various federal agencies, largely arising from their own petty turf wars.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 30, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
cloe, I am curious about the high-altitude cell phone calls you made in 2001.

Interesting to say the least, considering all that's been written saying how difficult it would be to make them (did anyone other than yourself say "Impossible?").

Where were you flying? Do you remember what type of plane (I know, this is probably a difficult one to answer). I am not saying you couldn't have made the calls. I'm just wondering the circumstances that allowed you to make these calls, when it's obviously been a big point of contention in the Official Story.

cheers
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 05:00pm PT
actually, there is very little saying that making those calls is "impossible"... something like a total of 2 sources, both with heavy conspiracy bias.

And LOTS and LOTS of people saying is is possible. Seriously, lots.

What kind of plane? Actually, that's easy... usually (but not always), I flew Southwest, who only uses 737s. Between Albany, NY/Manchester, NH -> Las Vegas, or Albuquerque. Mostly ABQ-> Las Vegas.

Not sure why that all matters, probably depends more on cell phone tower configurations, sun storms, network load, etc... Why does my cell phone drop calls in my home in the evening but not usually in the early morning? I have no idea.

(oh, and fwiw, the person who taught me this trick and felt less guilty about using it worked for the government, which had extensive contracts with American Airlines. I remember him complaining about not being able to choose the airline on occasion. Not that it should matter anyway.)

I also remember lots of flights with those in-seat phones, which come to think of it, I haven't seen in a while... and keep in mind, I STARTED this job in Jan, 2001, so if the phones had been removed prior to Sept, 2001, I wouldn't have many memories of flying with them. In fact, when I heard of in-flight 9-11 calls, I too assumed in-seat phones since they were so ubiquitous.

I also flew ~10 days after Sept 11... and I'm pretty sure I'd have noticed a lack of in-seat phones THEN. Everyone was completely freaked out and staring at each other - could he be a terrorist? - the flight was about 15% full, and I decided the best weapon I had was my laptop (smack somebody in the head, ouch!). I was definitely thinking about contingencies, and a lack of seatphone would have been very obvious.
monolith

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
^^Yep^^, nearly all calls on airphones. Only 2 confirmed cell calls, and they were at low altitude on flight 93 in a known cell phone corridor.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
Like usually, this 911 thread has become a parade of the morons with Rox and Klimmer leading the way.

What next? are you going to call me a sheep? or maybe tell me to wake up?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 30, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
Arrrrgggh!! Don't draw me into this again!!

"no possibility." And in less than the space of a paragraph the poster went from not possible to 'easier.'

Dingus, I guess the part of the single paragraph that you left out was "cellphone technology has improved since ..."

Not that *that* would make a difference in the context or meaning ;-)




But heck, you gotta admit, the video from the OP is pretty darn cool!
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
Re: cell phones.

I'm guessing one of the popular conspiracy theories falls apart if passengers made phone calls from one or all of the planes. Thus, evidence of phone calls being impossible must be presented to prop up one (or several?) theories. And what, there were no phone calls made at all (e.g. the families and phone operators are IN on it too), or, what, there were 50 government agents in a phone bank room making calls to the families of people who supposedly died in these planes (and the government actually, what, kidnapped the planes and killed all these people as a coverup)?

I liked the X-Files too, but this is ridiculous.

I also need to go on a hiatus and get back to work!!!

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 30, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
cloe, have you stopped ignoring the molten steel flowing out of the WTC towers yet?
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
I don't think you understand the definition of "molten", or the definition of "steel" (not metal). Again, very, very few sources (like, 2?) saying they saw this (no experts either) like weeks? later, and the photos I saw? It isn't molten. Sorry.


Second, I think people really don't understand why and how those fires could be so hot for so long as to make metal glow red hot, but hell, if you were going to store something really hot, how would you do it? Perhaps with a lot of insulation? Hard to beat several stories of concrete...


Again, the explanation(s) and rebuttals by the standard sources are, quite frankly, more than adequate from an engineering viewpoint.


kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Aug 30, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
Cellphone recievers are far stronger than the transmitters

Um at the tower you are wrong. At the phone itself, perhaps but not by more than a few dB.

cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
So let's see... the existence of "molten steel" proves that there must have been explosives present, right...

So... the conspiracy theory states that a bunch of gov't agents went in and wired up the two towers with so much explosives that when an airplane hit the building in just the exactly correct spot, it blew up, and somehow, not a single person of the thousands working inside noticed this activity?

(airplane flown by suicidal gov't agents, or was there no airplane?)




You find this more plausible then:

The twin towers, because of their unusual size, type, and age (year of construction) were actually built with less fire safety than was in the code at the time they were built. Many, many shortcuts. For example, all of the stairways** and thus, main structural columns, are in the center of the building. This happens to be perfect for allowing an airplane to enter the side of the building, then stopping it dead in the center, so that all the fuel could explode inside. Furthermore, it turns out some of the main steel columns had no fireproofing - NONE - which is why the steel melted so fast. In fact, structural engineers (that I know personally) tell me that *any* hot fire inside those buildings would've, most likely, brought it down (vertically, with gravity, like normal). No need for an airplane or explosion at all.

Nobody realized the extent of this, of course - it was unfathomable and nobody was thinking about it - certainly not the terrorists. In short, they happened to pick a particularly vulnerable target... they got "lucky".


** it might be elevators, my memory is fuzzy, but either way, the structural columns are in the middle AND I recall there being major problems with stairways too - in the wrong places and far too narrow to accommodate an evacuation of a building that size.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 30, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
Again, very, very few sources (like, 2?) saying they saw this (no experts either) like weeks?

cloe, this is quite wrong.

First, there is video readily available on the internet that shows red hot metal flowing out of the WTC towers before they fell. Then Michale Moore's film shows several pictures of red hot steel at the WTC site. There are several eye witness reports of seeing metal flowing.

You are ignoring these sources. Bzzzzzt.


And on your last quoted piece:

Furthermore, it turns out some of the main steel columns had no fireproofing - NONE - which is why the steel melted so fast.

Funny, above you had a link to a blog where it stated that the fires could not have been hot enough to melt steel. So, what's it going to be? More cherry picking?
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
red hot steel is not molten
aluminum siding is not steel.





Hang on, I'll post a picture of some molten steel and a cliff...

























wait for it......
































k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 30, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
Very nice, thanks.
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Aug 30, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
interesting full length movie debunking the "truthers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4YLYoTrFm4&feature=feedf
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
The aviation fuel burned off rapidly (approx. 15 minutes or so). Survivors came to the massive holes after the jets crashed into the WTC towers after the fuel burned off and peered out looking for help. The fires were not that great, nor very hot as indicated by the thick black smoke. Firefighters were able to get past the impact zones in the towers and said they were more than likely able to knock down the remaining fires. This came on radio and it is available to listen too. Then the towers fell.

Office fires do not burn hot enough to melt steel, nor do office furniture fires burn for months producing pools of molten steel at the bottom of the towers.

Thermite or Thermate does though, and the chemical fingerprint of Thermite/Thermate was indeed found within the dust of the collapsed WTC towers. This is without dispute. Samples were saved and with electron microprobe analysis it was identified. Then it was also ignited proving it is what it is. See all of Dr. Steven Jones et al. studies that are published, and the images, and the videos.


Without a doubt the eye-witnesses saw what they saw. We have a plethora of visual evidence in still image and video of molten steel, along with the eye-wtiness testimonies to that fact.

Not to even mention and once again go into all the eye-witness testiomony to multiple explosives on multiple floors and in the basements of both towers.

You can not explain all this evidence away with the magical ignorant wave of your hand.


9/11: South Tower molten metal stabilization by JKeogh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbzdO0EPOGg&feature=related
Molten metal WTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p6UuGE0plk&feature=related
9/11: Molten Metal at Ground Zero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCdRA09pztM
9/11 - Ground Zero Molten Metal Confirmed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-XA0Rv1Ng8&feature=related
9 11 Blueprint molten metal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-J60B4kOq0&feature=related
9/11 Scientist Proves The Molten Metal With The Thermal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FHeGVEaNBk&feature=related
Thermite Scientifically Confirmed in 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy1oPmuZZ98&NR=1
Evidence of Nano Thermite Explosives on 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00soZ7rQw3U&feature=related
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
The fires were not that great, nor very hot as indicated by the thick black smoke. Firefighters were able to get past the impact zones in the towers and said they were more than likely able to knock down the remaining fires. This came on radio and it is available to listen too. Then the towers fell.

Office fires do not burn hot enough to melt steel, nor do office furniture fires burn for months producing pools of molten steel at the bottom of the towers.

Thermite or Thermate does though,



So, the fire wasn't that great or that hot (because there was smoke!), but ... but .... there was that VIDEO PROVING the those fires were SO HOT they were melting steel BEFORE the collapse. It's on all the Truther websites!. But... but... wait... which one of those TWO contradictory conspiracy theories do you believe, Klimmer?


cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
Right, office fires do not burn hot enough to melt steel? Why then, is fireproofing mandatory around steel columns? Ok, you win, how could a measly office fire melt steel?

Oh, maybe if you pour a few gazillion gallons of jet fuel you might be able to...gasp... *weaken* steel to the point of collapse. Doesn't need to melt! I guess that's why modern steel building are *required* to have fireproofing ... ya know, to prevent the steel from losing strength when it gets hot during a measly office fire!



But wait, that pile of office furniture and old textbooks in my backyard didn't melt any steel? See, can't be, wasn't hot. Well, you're right about that, at least.. there was no "molten steel" in the pile!

But you say you SAW some RED HOT STUFF?! Amazing! I see that in my fireplace! Imagine, you make a pile of a few gazillion tons and have it smolder for months under the heat from the jet fuel fire and the collapse energy and the insulation of all the crap on top, and some RED HOT STUFF gets pulled out. Whodathunk? Nobody... well, except anyone who's ever see, like, a campfire. Or a woodstove.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
Cleo,

No one is saying aviation fuel melted the steel. No one who cares about the truth is saying office furniture melted steel.

So what can melt steel? What was it that they found in the dust? Bingo.

They are saying thermite/thermate/nano-superthermate sure enough did, and this would also explain why the flowing steel, pooling steel, and steel remaining molten for a month or more occurred in the basement areas as witnessed by many who were tasked with the clean-up.

You are also forgetting the Madrid, Spain raging fire within a steel beam building being constructed that burned for something like 24 hrs. or more. No collapse. No molten steel. That fire raged very hot and long. had all the oxygen it needed. The building was still standing.

You do know buildings are designed for worst case scenarios. Redundancy. The insulation is for that safety margin and you know it.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
No Klimmer, molten steel witnessed by two people. Two dubious sources.

One. Two.


That's it. The other 25,000 people who helped clean up didn't see it. Not on video, or in pictures either.


More people have seen aliens flying over Oakland.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:43pm PT
Cleo,

Stop with the attacks.

Watch the videos and all the testimony that is provided. You are being purposefully ignorant. Lots of testimony, images, and videos exist of the molten steel and the cooled remains of the pools of formally molten steel.

They even have satellite imagery showing the hot spots within both towers that lasted for a month or more and right there is where they found the pools of molten steel as well elsewhere.




Dr. Steven Jones explains it simply:

Evidence of Nano Thermite Explosives on 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00soZ7rQw3U&feature=related


cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
I have watched the videos.

Not. Molten. Steel.
Weakened, very hot, ductile steel, yes. Red Hot Other Crap, yes.

Yes. Hot. For. Months.
Just like coal seams stay hot for dozens of years. Without the secret new DARPA SuperThermite.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
Molten Steel!!!



And... less OT!


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
No matter how hard you try you can not erase the evidence that is found in the dust of 9-11-2001. It's empirical. It physical. It's there.

Thermite/Thermate/Super nano-thermite


Dr. Steven Jones explains it simply:

Evidence of Nano Thermite Explosives on 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00soZ7rQw3U&feature=related


I'll try to find the pdf link to the original published paper.



cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:51pm PT
You mean, the paint? Yea, they found some trace evidence of paint.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
Cleo,


You have a degree in geology don't you?

Do you disrespect analytical science identifying elements, and elemental wt.% ratios to determine the chemical compounds using the electron micro-probe whether in EDS or WDS mode?


C'mon.



Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe
http://911blogger.com/node/19761


The Research article:

“Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe” by Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven E. Jones, Kevin R. Ryan, Frank M. Legge, Daniel Farnsworth, Gregg Roberts, James R. Gourley and Bradley R. Larsen
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:04pm PT
There is no evidence of anything other than normal, boring paint at the WTC. Yea, a couple of idiots posted crap papers... which (many, many other) scientists have refuted with overwhelming evidence and arguments. Weak sauce. A whole bunch of idiots have confusing blogs, full of this kind of crap.

So no, I don't respect crap science and crap papers. And yes, there are a few idiots calling themselves scientists, just like there are idiots in any profession.


But round and round we go... one thing gets refuted, you change the subject to another.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
Pure ignorance.

It's all I can say.


The 9-11 OCT is time and time again shown to be invalid and you keep holding on. Perhaps you're scared of the truth?

Yes I know. We all do. Truth I know is sometimes painful. Hope you can cope and handle it. Hope your not the last one on Earth to wake-up.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:29pm PT
Ron,

Hardly. The truth of the conspiracy is older (perhaps millions to billions of years), deeper, and more surreal than you can imagine.

9-11-2001 is just a symptom of more to come.

Read The Bible. Read The Book of Enoch.

I know the system is corrupt and rotten. It will get worse. But I will be able to look my kids in the eye and say I protested. I fought. I tried to do what I could do and make things right and hold off evil for as long as possible.

I will be able I hope to stand before GOD one day and say I fought for his truth and justice, and kept the great commandments, no matter the personal cost.

It's all I can do. It's all any of us can do.

Love GOD with all your heart. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Treat others as you would want to be treated (TGR). Stand against injustice. Stand up for the truth.





(Get some climbing and adventure in when you can. Lol)
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
dirtbag

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
I know the truth.






















































































Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
Ron,

I'm sure its all fairy tales to you, but haven't you heard about the fall of Lucifer and how 33% of the Angels decided to break rank and go with him?

That is indeed the birth of The Great Conspiracy. All other conspiracies derive from there.

That didn't happen just yesterday. The heavenly hosts witnessed the creation of the Universe (The Big Bang). Lucifer's fall happened long before man ever showed up on the scene, millions to billions of years prior.

If it is just fairy tales to you, at least know your fairy tales so you can converse.


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
Glenn, if you're so convinced of the truth of your ideas, why don't you post them under your own name?
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 01:41am PT
Well Riley, the Wikipedia link you posted about 9-11 conspiracy theory is about as fair and balanced as a Fox Op/Ed, not once do you see the arguments from a 9-11 Truther movement, but you do see plenty of references to the Popular Mechanics article, which has been thoroughly debunked.

No matter how hard you try, you will not convince me that a 757 hit the Pentagon. Nor will you convince this guy:

American Intelligence General, General Stubblebine Says 911 was a fraud

Nor will you convince me that office fires brought down WTC Bld 7.

You folks can model it any way you want, but why not test the dust for explosives? Like these folks did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw&feature=player_embedded


And yes Riley, I know you watched this last clip before. You even said you saw it in two different places. However, you paid so little attention, that you thought is was about a building that had been hit by a plane.

Anyway, you believe the "facts" that you want to. I will believe what my eyes and intuition tell me. Modern steel buildings don't fall down from office fires and you can't squeeze a 757 though a 16" hole.

Test the dust from the WTC, release the video from the Pentagon. That would settle it, wouldn't it?

So, please back to the nice pictures of fire falls. Now that is cool!
(Although somewhat non-PC ;-)
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Aug 31, 2011 - 02:14am PT
Video of Hittile Missing the Pentagon?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 31, 2011 - 02:28am PT
Coz, I've offered at climb with Klimmer in the past but he always turns down the offer. He should at least make an appearance at the Woodson reunion each year. From the climbing pictures he has posted, it looks as though he hasn't tied in sice 1980.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 31, 2011 - 03:49am PT
The absolute best thing about the whole "cruise missile" conspiracy is that it easily identifies idiots.

Similar to the moon landing is a hoax believers and the "we wired the trade centers with 50'000 miles of det cord and thousands of pounds of explosives but nobody noticed then flew a jumbo jet into it to cover the fact while not disturbing the det cord or explosives" believers.

The only benefit of the doubt i can give the folks who beleive the 9-11 related BS is that Bush-co really are evil, liars and incredibly secretive.. That can confuse folks for at least 2 minutes into considering the possibility that they actually were active participants in 9-11.

Sadly their other main characteristic , incompetence makes this ridiculous.. not to mention many other instantly obvious reasons there was no cruise missile.

Anyone who believes this crap is a high order IDIOT. Blinded by a well placed mistrust into actually disregarding any semblance of reasoning.

However they are in good company.

We are ALL idiots occasionally. Perhaps not High order idiots but idiots nonetheless.

I love most idiots. Most are really nice people. They hopefully will stick to being nice people and not try to do anything that might actually affect my well-being such as voting, designing anything i might use, Doing complicated tasks such as manufacturing certain items i might use or having any authority over me whatsoever.

Love all of you.. life is good, people are interesting.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
Riley, thanks for the couple of posts.

I guess it's a misstatement of mine to say I'd never be convinced. If a couple of independent companies tested the soil of the WTC and found there to be nothing suspicious there, and if the videos of the Pentagon were released that showed exactly what happened there, I'd be convinced.

But a lot of time has passed, and with all the new technology in place, it would be difficult to tell if any of the video was doctored. Much like the video in this original post--it looks very convincing.

That crusty old general, why give him any credit? Well, he happens to be one of the world's experts on analyzing photographic evidence. And he, like me, can't believe that a 757 made the damage that we see in the pictures of the Pentagon. I don't believe planes vaporize upon impact (the story given for the wings and rear tail piece), and still punch clean holes through six 18" reinforced concrete walls. The high-grade, heat resistant steel in the engines disappear without leaving a mark, yet somehow there's enough mass in the light fuselage to keep going after hitting not one, two, three, four, or even five thick cement walls... oh forget it.

Remember, anybody who goes against the grain on this thing is sticking their necks out professionally. It's just not an easy thing to do to put your coins down on the "9-11 Truth" movement side of the table, you are instantly labeled a kook and your professional career is at stake.

Riley (and cleo too), I appreciate your diligence on looking at all this stuff. And I respect your conclusions. (And, I'm sorry for the remark I made about the WTC B7 and planes, it was cheap and it didn't help to further the debate.) There's a lot of very suspicious activity surrounding the events on this thing, and these are all ignored by the 9-11 commission. Simply, the truth was silenced by that committee.

I'll be the first to admit, Tom Clancy and Ian Fleming together couldn't create a believable story about how this could have been pulled off via an inside job. But, if you believe what's being put forth by the Official Story, then you are ignoring the testimony of many very reputable people.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
You guys should read rschop's Journal.

You'll be amazed by the stuff he's gleaned from the 911 commission and official govt. documents themselves.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/rschop

Cheney's also scared right now he's going to be tried for war crimes ......
Gene

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8

Comments?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
Again, my father and two brothers with about a 100 years of commercial flying for United / Fedex between them each claim it was entirely possible.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Aug 31, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
Sadly, you would have to be feeble - minded to believe this conspiracy nonsense.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
Healy, there are dozens who are quoted as saying it was almost or entirely impossible. And they have made their names public and typed for themselves. Which set am I to believe? I have no idea.

Believe who you will, I'm just telling you what my family of professionals have said about it.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
Ron just keeps talking about an event that has no relation to to this event at the at the pentagon.

Fly the fuking airliner into the pentagon and quit rambling about jet fighters.

And Joe's family members are pro pilots so it may be possible for them.

Still they need to fly the fuking airliner with that pattern to walk the talk just as you so claimed all along on the wings of steel thread that if you haven't done the route then it's all bullsh'it.

You guys do a lot of talking with nothing to show for it other than the Govt. said this and that according to "THEIR" investigation.

Have any of you read the entire 911 commission report or the entire bullsh'it NIST drool?

Of course not.

You're all just picking choosing to whatever makes you feel good and passing it off as the "real stuff".

That's as wack out as a lot of the truther bullsh'it that's infiltrated with so many disinfo tools .....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:01pm PT
And Joe's family members are pro pilots so it may be possible for them.

No, they explicitly said it would be possible for the hijackers to fly it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:05pm PT
No, they explicitly said it would be possible for the hijackers to fly it.


Implying it's a suicide maneuver? You'd be stupid to try it unless you weren't afraid of dying?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
Dad started flying in Stearman bi-planes and retired from 747's - if he said it was possible, I personally take him at his word. Your choice is yours.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
Assholes, a real celebrity of the truthers movement appeared HERE, and was NOT allowed to make his argument.

How LAME was that? Can you even make a scale of lameness that huge?

Right up there with dirtineye scaring off Franz Bachman a few years back.

Oh, but that was climbing related. Sorry.
Gene

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
Know way!!!

Remind me again my conspiratorial inclined friends, who, how and why the Inside Jobbers did this.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
Has someone theorized why the gov't would fire a cruise missile into it's military headquarters?

Especially after angry Arabs had just slammed 2 planes into the WTC?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
So some seemingly reputable people said there was residue from thermite, or thermate or some such stuff. I'm not entirely certain on the reputable part, but what the heck, I heard it and now I wonder what the answer is.

did anyone find a source the disputes that, or proves it was something else? Just curious. Cleo said it was paint, but I didn't see a link.

Anyone got one?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
Another question.

If the fires burned hot enough to weaken the steal girders, then how did people end up standing in the windows looking out?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
If the fires burned hot enough to weaken the steal girders, then how did people end up standing in the windows looking out?


They weren't "looking out". They were preparing to jump because it was so hot, and sadly, they chose to die rather than suffer the blistering heat.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
Thats not what I remember, but I haven't looked at all the video in a long time. And don't really want to do it again. I lost a good friend that day.

Are you just blowing smoke, and did you look closely at this situation?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:39pm PT
Rocky, we already had reasons! Arab extremists already attacked the WTC!

So why fire a missile into the Pentagon?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 07:40pm PT
Bluey was in the building at the time measuring the temperature of the "heat"
with his thermometer.

Then he B.A.S.E ed out the back where there where no cameras and that's how he knows.
Gene

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
Rokjox,

What about who and how?

g
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:42pm PT

seem much more the likely scenerio than all these other conspiracy theories.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
Gene

Read some of this and you'll get glimpse .....

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/rschop
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
Werner, so why were people committing suicide by hurling to their deaths?

Has someone theorized why the gov't would fire a cruise missile into it's military headquarters?

Especially after angry Arabs had just slammed 2 planes into the WTC?

And can you theorize on these questions?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
You'll have to ask them ......
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
That's pretty lame, Werner. You know why....
Gene

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
Gene

Read some of this and you'll get glimpse .....

It's 12,400-plus words and 39 pages long. Can't read it now. Can I trade you a future glimpse for a current hint?

g
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
Bluey

You let too much of your emotions control your thoughts.

Instead of wasting your time here go do some work if really interested in this subject matter.

Spend a few years on it.

Not like most who read Popular mechanics and then are experts.

Go read the entire 911 commission report and the NIST drool.
Gene

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
locker,

If, gawd forbid, something goes wrong on your moon flight, can I have the $38,000,000 (USD) the Import/Export Bank of Nigeria owes you?

Good luck!

g
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
Bluey

You let too much of your emotions control your thoughts.

Instead of wasting your time here go do some work if really interested in this subject matter.

Werner, normally I would concur on the research part before talking sh#t. But before the research, the mind runs through certain obvious parts of these attacks.

It appears obvious to me that Angry Arabs attacked the WTC. To me, that is pretty clear based on what I've read after the fact.

So, after that happend, why would the ? fire a cruise missile into the lead US military agency HQ, the Pentagon? It makes no sense for some US agency to do this.

Are you implying some other agent did this? Like, the same Angry Arabs?

Please answer why you'd think the US did this, who you suspect otherwise, and why people lept from the WTC as it burned.

The lack of answers to these question is very telling from the CT mob here.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:15pm PT
Gene, that was a bitchen animation!

I say we morph that with the video in the OP and we'll have a winner!


Has someone theorized why the gov't would fire a cruise missile into it's military headquarters?


I'm no expert in these things, but from what the internet fortune tellers tell me...


The area of the Pentagon that was hit housed the accounting files. They were just getting ready to look into $2B that went missing (and here my memory fades a bit), from a project that Rummsfield was heading (or some such).

On Sept. 12, 2001, they completely forgot about the investigation into the $2B.

Now that might seem link chump-change to you or me, but to those guys, it's their lunch money.



A different question to ask: Why would the plane not hit the much easier side of the Pentagon (the one that was perfectly in line with the plane's approach) instead of making that wild-assed turning approach that Rox does such a good job of describing?

Silly of me to ask, I know cloe will have a spot-on answer up her sleeve. Here, how about this:

"The Pentagon is really hard to see when you're flying. But the new construction zone made a really easily identifiable target. You see, it had fresh paint."


Just kidding cloe. I love ya, and you know it.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 08:17pm PT
Bluey

On top of this page I gave the link to

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/rschop

Read it and quit asking questions.

Read it

Read it.

But none of you can because you're too fuking lazy ......
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
Werner, who the f*#k is rschop from the DemocraticUnderground'? Why Should I take him seriously? I'll read it....hold on.

EDIT: I started reading it. It's Bullshit!!!!!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:25pm PT
Bluey, why the hell should I read a report that was put together by a bunch of puppet stooges?


Stop the presses! I've just started reading the 9-11 Commission Report, and if I said it was bullsh#t, that'd be a lie because at least bullshit is worth something!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:30pm PT
My mistake. shouldn't have brought up the people standing in the opening.

I really want to know about the thermite residue. Did anyone disprove that?
dirtbag

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:30pm PT

Yes, I see a boeing. There is a tail sticking up in that photo.

That shot is from a conspiracy website, btw, not some illuminati run prop outfit.

But wtf do I know? I'm sure the dentist put a chip in my fillings, along with the flouride to brainwash me.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
Bluey -- "Why Should I take him seriously?"

All the information this guys gives was right from the official 911 commission report.

The same guys you so believe and now say it's bullsh'it.

Like I said. It's right out from the 911 commission report itself.

But you're so smart you call your own understanding of 911 bullsh'it.

You've been owned .....
Gene

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
Much has been made that whatever hit the Pentagon took out the main DOD accounting offices. A $1.2 trillion shortfall has been suggested as a motive. I would suggest that (1) blaming the Clinton administration, which left 8 months prior to 9/11 &/or (2) cooking the books, would have been a much cleaner and more expedient way to solve this issue rather than blow up the freaking place. Book cooking was very popular back then. Enron. WorldCom, etc.

Was the attack on the Pentagon part and parcel of getting the US into an oil grabbing war, or just a convenient addendum to cover missing $$$?

{As if the DOD doesn’t have secure off-site storage of everything.}
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:41pm PT


Good one Werner!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
Would yall look at this video and tell me what you see in the first 20 seconds?

http://www.rimcountry.com/reminder.htm

Scroll to the bottom. It is titled. 9/11.. remembering the jumpers.


Freeze it on the 19th second. What is going on in that frame? You only need to look at the first 20 seconds. The rest is pretty hard to watch.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
{As if the DOD doesn’t have secure off-site storage of everything.}


Well you know, they did have all those video cameras on the side that was plowed into, and they said those didn't capture anything, so I wouldn't be so sure about off-site storage for their accounting files.

And yeah, $1.2T, now even to me that would mean something.


So why the crazy approach? Just showing off?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
I think I figured it out. Its a crazy angle and the north tower, which was hit first, is lined up with the south tower making it look like one building. If you scroll up you can see pictures that help understand that.

But it sure looks like the building is on fire and then something hits it. Weirdness.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
John, I had to watch that a few times, a lot happens in the 19th second.

But yes, it certainly looks weird when the plane hits the building. If you freeze it just right, [it appears] there are no wings. And when it enters the building, there are no outlines of the wings in the building.



I once found this wild video that claimed all sorts of graphic manipulation was done to make it look like planes hit the buildings. I don't give those ideas much credence.

However, part of the video showed all the different news networks, here and abroad, with anchors talking live about what was going on. The weird thing is they all had the same back drop, even through they were obviously standing in different locations. The implication was that all news networks were using a feed that was given to them. Hard to explain, and I've not been able to find the video again.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
What was weirder to me was that it looks like one building, and that the building is already on fire when it is hit.

If you full screen it and scroll back and forth between 19 and 22 seconds and can see that it is two buildings. It weirded me out there for a minute.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 09:43pm PT
You guys will not take a stab at my posed questions?

And yet you continue the side-dilemmas....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 31, 2011 - 09:43pm PT

He came back,
This time for me.
On the 110th floor I was so close to God
I could almost grab his beard.
Never before has heaven been this close to hell.
I can feel its fire on the floors below
Raising ash and paper and smoke
Thick as Satan's laughter.
At the window, shattered,
I look for salvation and he tempts me,
Dares me to jump,
Whispering a psalm in my ear
He spits as he speaks:
"He will bid his angels watch over you.
With their hands they will support you."
I mumble "Amen,"
Close my eyes and sense the rush of air.
I cannot breathe until I finally feel
Those hands of angels
Hard as cement against my face.

by Doug Seubert





Yeah, that video was, um, indescribable. Brings it right home.


I remember watching a documentary on The Photo, and what it took to print it.


John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
Blue.. I have no Idea why they would use a missile against the pentagon after the world trade centers were hit. Lots of stuff doesn't add up to me.

I still haven't seen anything disproving the claims for thermite. Nor have I been able to fully accept that 3 buildings collapsed in just a few hours.

Nor can I explain why Bush, or was it Condi, would say that no one expected terrorist to use large planes, when that subject had been discussed numerous times.

Nor can I explain why the airplane doors weren't hardened 40 years ago when they first started contemplating terrorist using large planes. Though I imagine the bean counters played a role in that.

cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Aug 31, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 10:09pm PT
I still haven't seen anything disproving the claims for thermite. Nor have I been able to fully accept that 3 buildings collapsed in just a few hours.

They were hit by airplanes flying at maximum speeds will full fuel tanks!

But you're more willing to accept Spec Ops guys went in an rigged it so we could have a ME war?

Can you disprove the video of the Angry Arabs getting on the planes. Them taking 'landing' lessons in flight schools? Of KSM bragging that he came up with the plot after cutting off Danny Pearls head?

ReallY????

You people are sick.

EDIT: Riley, I agree with Rick in yer video. The chic questioner is the moron making a stupid argument.


Rock on, Santorum.

Anal grease Santorum arguing about gays.
And this is going to be the level of discourse??? You idiots claim to be sensitive, inclusive, and intellectually superior, and this is the level of discourse? Feces coupled with lube is the definition of Santorum?

We are doomed as a culture...
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
Pretty funny Cintune.



I miss my friend.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
But you're more willing to accept Spec Ops guys went in an rigged it so we could have a ME war?

No Blue, I'm just wondering why a scientist was able to find traces of thermite. Thats all. I would like that disproved. but it appears our government didn't look for explosives. I'm wondering why they can't be bothered to disprove this. It shouldn't be that hard to test the samples people have saved.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
Funny how WAPO, NYT, WSJ, CNN, etc. won't touch this sh#t with a ten foot pole, though it would be the story of the century if any of it was half true...
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 31, 2011 - 11:43pm PT
You mean like WOS???

Now there is a real problem.

Why is it that if you have doubts about things, then you are lumped in with every crazy theory that there is? Kind of like if you didn't like WOS, then you must have been a shitter or a Christian hater. Or if you defend any aspect of the first ascent team, then you must be a Loverboy, drilling fool.

A seemingly respectable scientist says he found traces of thermite. Why is it wrong to ask about this? Do you think our government isn't capable of some really shitty things?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
I'm with ya on this one, coz!

But otherwise, you suck....hehe....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:01am PT
The problem is that if one tiny thread unravels in the story, then the major cracks start to appear. All there has to be is one, and the game is on.


Hmm, no major news networks picking up on this, not hard to figure out why.


NWO has a good one.

Will somebody please try to explain the explosions these NYFD guys experienced?

Or will you just ignore them and brush them off as being on some nutty 2nd-rate blog.


http://www.infowars.com/video-911-firefighters-reveal-huge-explosions-before-towers-collapsed/


Don't forget, these are the very guys who put their lives in danger to save the folks in those buildings.

(Gosh, wonder why they're not invited to the 10th anniversary Ground Zero ceremony. Do you think the NYPD will keep them away, or the Special Forces?)
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:03am PT
John, how many building have traces of thermite?

Coz, you're being pretty sarcastic here, with the midgets and all.

Go upstream a bit, I posted a link to a video more than once that shows just who did unofficial tests on the WTC dust.

What we're looking for is official and verifiable tests.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:13am PT
I'm just asking about the finding of thermite and if anyone has a link to someone disproving this. Thats all.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:15am PT
Sorry coz, sarcasm is good, and I'm usually full of it. But I just watched that video about the jumpers and it put me in a bit of a sour mood.


You got the thermite story down, care to take a swipe at those firefighters and the explosions they experienced?



EDIT: John, nobody touches the thermite story.
They have no cover for that.



BREAKING: The OP video has been taken down by YouTube.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:22am PT
If I was to play Warblers game, I could come up with a far fetched, but sort of plausible way to put thermite in the buildings without most folks knowing, except the head of the security.

The towers were built with the main supports beams in the center. That is where the elevators ran. If you had access to the elevators, and could shut them down as you needed to, then you could place charges. You could even wire them, though wireless exists.


And as for why would any military person send a missle towards the pentagon. Its all done by computers now. Drones can be flown offsite. It would be relatively easy for someone to make a drone pilot think they are practicing on another target, while really they are flying it into the pentagon. Its all just computers.

Much like our voting system can be hacked.

All you need is access and a few people willing to do that kind of work. You could even conveniently kill them after they do the work and leave only a few alive who know about it.

Maybe I read too many crazy novels, or maybe I have read too much about even crazier things our government has done. What was that about hijacking planes, or shooting them down so that we could attack cuba? Anyone remember what that was?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:26am PT
this is a very strange period in history

as the bright spotlight of the internet shines around the chaotic landscape

on of the few things that it is possible to be sure about is that all our sources of information are so heavily contaminated with lies...

that it is almost impossible to discern the real truth about many important events

every time a glimmer of truth appears about anything important

a torrent of roughly similar lies appears to dilute that glimmer of truth
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:29am PT
That's because, dirtbag, all of the media outlets you listed, are owned by the same corporate interests. Do you not ask yourself *why* all mainstream media reports are the same?

dirtbag's biggest secret? He doesn't climb....period.

I wouldn't be surprised if he were a government op. He does seem to shadow, then slam my every post, or any others who question the status quo.

dirtbag? What say you?
Yeah, I know.....BOO!
Weak.

LOL...your post responded to me, not the other way around. And you accuse me of stalking?

Yep, I climb. Not often anymore, but occasionally.

Moreover...all major news outlets are owned by the same corp interests? ALL hundreds of them? Really? Are they all in cahoots? ALL are willing to forego a shitload of $$$$ from cracking the biggest story of the century? So thousands of organizations and people...the NYPD, the miltary, the executive branch, the NYFD, etc., planned this massive. coordinated attack, and not person out of thousands involved has come forward and fessed up after 10 years? Not one?

Dude....to put it charitably, you seem like a nice enough guy but you have a rather tenuous grip on reality. I find this sh#t mildly entertaining on one level but on another, it's actually sad that people have created this fantasy land version of reality and live in fear of some vague boogeyman.

BOO! backatcha.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:30am PT
a torrent of roughly similar lies appears to dilute that glimmer of truth

Yep..

Plus with the anniversary coming up, I keep remembering my friend. I wrote this on another thread, but I will post it here.

My buddy Darren Bohan was on the 102 floor of building number two, the South tower. I wrote on the other thread that he was in the north tower, but that was a mistake. A coworker says he stayed behind to help his supervisor make certain the offices were evacuated. I posted this on the other thread and will post it here now.

Darren Bohan 9/--/1966 - 9/11/2001

Darren was working on the 102 floor of the South tower. One of his coworkers said he stayed behind to help his supervisor make certain that everyone got out. That was just like Darren. He wasn't going to leave anyone behind. Neither his supervisor or Darren got out.

Darren was one my first friends when I moved to Wawona. He loved the outdoors. He loved music and playing the guitar. He made an awesome New York pizza. He could juggle fire and tell jokes. We use to backpack, and hike and go to the river and play basketball. We learned to make beer together and drank many a six pack.

One time when we were playing one on one basketball, I kept beating him off the dribble to my left. I finally broke down and asked him why he didn't shade me to the left because that was the only move I had. He said " John, I know thats the only move you got. You are such a lousy player that if I shaded you to the left you would never score on me, and thats no fun. So I play you straight up and its a challenge to try to stop you, so the game is fun for both of us".

I laughed my ass off at that. That is just the way Darren was. He liked for everyone to have fun.

One summer I dropped him off in Mammoth so he could hike over the Sierra to Wawona. He was wearing cheap tennis shoes. I knew he had a penchant for going off trail so I worried about him and asked him about his shoes. He was always broke because he spent his money on beer and music. He said he would be alright as he had a roll of duct tape. He was back 2 weeks later and sure enough, his shoes were held together with duct tape. He had a big ol grin on his face and was the happiest I had seen him in awhile as his girlfriend had broken up with him the month before. Give him a fishing pole and 2 weeks in the woods and he was a happy man.

I still miss him.

See you on the other side Darren.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2011 - 12:40am PT
So thousands of organizations and people...the NYPD, the miltary, the executive branch, the NYFD, etc., planned this massive. coordinated attack,

Nobody with half a brain ever propagated this kind of bullsh'it.

Dirtbag you must have less then half a brain.

Tom Cochrane gave much closer to the truth ......
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:42am PT
Oh really Werner? The kind of conspiracy you guys insist upon would require that kind of manpower. At a minimum.

And NWO, those guys weren't the perps.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:43am PT
AND btw, Alex jones is making a fortune off of this horsesh#t.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2011 - 12:47am PT
The kind of conspiracy you guys insist upon would require that kind of manpower. At a minimum.


So now you're all expert on conspiracy.

Now you're all expert on how it's done.

You're more whacked than the so called conspiracy nuts ...
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:50am PT
Oh really Werner? The kind of conspiracy you guys insist upon would require that kind of manpower. At a minimum.

You don't seem to be paying attention. It wouldn't require that many people. A half dozen people in the upper echelons. Plus if the wiring of the buildings was done over a period of time, it would only take a few guys to do that.

Bush's brother to gain access to the twin towers.
Cheney to schedule the military games and keep the fighters on the ground.
A few ops to set the charges.
Someone to write the computer programs and infect the proper computers.
Whoever was in the CIA who discovered the plot to begin with.

And no one else would have to know. Our role could be minimal. I might be missing one or two, but that seems to mostly cover it.


Since the NIST's own report says it didn't test for explosives in any of the buildings.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:52am PT
They weren't the perps NWO...


So now you're all expert on conspiracy.

Now you're all expert on how it's done.

You're more whacked than the so called conspiracy nuts ...

You guys are coming up with the fancy fantasies, not me.

I keep hearing about how the military, the MSM, NYPD, NYFD, etc are involved. That sounds like thousands of people to me. I'm not coming up with this sh#t, other people are. I'm just trying to add it all up.


dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:53am PT

You don't seem to be paying attention. It wouldn't require that many people. A half dozen people in the upper echelons. Plus if the wiring of the buildings was done over a period of time, it would only take a few guys to do that.


Nonsense.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:54am PT
And Al Gore is making a fortune (how many homes does he own? I don't suspect he flies commercial?) pushing his climate change info. Your point?

Well, there's a lot of science backing up global warming. But that's another topic.

but you think they are all part of some kind of weird NWO scheme too. Like I said, you have a tenuous grip on reality.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:55am PT
oops.. forgot about the missing plane. Don't know how to take that out without involving a few more people.

And I'm not saying anything I proposed is what happened. I just want to know if a scientist really did find thermite.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:56am PT
Yeah, there's thosee missing planes with all the missing people who got on board those missing planes.

But that's another layer of the cake.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2011 - 12:57am PT
No dirtbag no no no

You made up the fantasy and projected it onto people.

It doesn't take much to put your foot in your mouth ....
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:00am PT
Only one missing plane, if you believe a missile hit the pentagon. Of course I know about the theories about the twin towers being hit by military drones. But that doesn't have to have happened.

I think I could figure out a way to get rid of the one plane. But I would have to think about it.

Your argument Dirtbag, was that it had to involve lots and lots of people. I'm just showing how it could be done with a whole lot fewer people then most folks realize. I'm not saying that this happened.

I just want to know if anyone disproved the thermite, since the NIST says they didn't test for explosives, even though it was a 3 year study and they knew some people thought it might be explosives. Seems kind of shoddy work to me.

It seems like they latched onto one theory, and ignored all else. Some criminal detectives would tell you that is shoddy work. A friend of mine was a homicide detective in Los Angeles county for 25 years.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:01am PT
No dirtbag no no no

You made up the fantasy and projected it onto people.

It doesn't take much to put your foot in your mouth ....

Now what are you babbling about?

I didn't make this sh#t up.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:04am PT
IF a missile hit the Pentagon, there's only one missing plane, db.

IF?

Look it up. There are obituaries and interviews with the families of those missing on the planes.

Or are they in on it too?



Whatever. I'm done for the night.

Fantasies are fun to entertain, but reality is nice too.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:05am PT
He's soon to go in for a vasectomy.

You don't have to go there. Dirtbag is a good guy.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:11am PT
Ouch.. geez Warbler.. you should write novels.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:15am PT
But then you would have to install remote controls on those plane and that would involve more people. Because you wouldn't install remote control on just one plane, you would do it on all of them.

Its getting too weird to think about.

Good night everyone.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:29am PT
Presumably conspiracy theorists aren't allowed to use Occam's Razor, because they'd probably cut themselves. The likelihood of personal harm outweighs their being allowed to indulge their fantasies in public.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:31am PT
And yet conspiracies have happened.


Funny how that works.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:36am PT
keep your life simple

everything is just fine

believe all the official news

go to work in the morning

eat processed food

take all your prescribed pills

pay your bills

pay your taxes

trust your government

watch TV until you pass out
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:43am PT
So gas everyone, put the plane on autopilot and fly it that way.. hmmm. Don't know if that would work, but there are sites that say autopilot cna fly an entire flight plan.

So why not fly the plane into the pentagon if you control it?

Maybe the controls didn't work exactly and they sent it out over the sea, but then air traffic control would have noticed that.

To work, it really can't have a lot of people involved.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:58am PT
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/American_Airlines_Flight_77_Timeline

This site says the transponder was turned off. But still, why not fly it into the pentagon?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:11am PT
We need Tom Clancy to finish this story. Too much going on for me to buy it.

I don't know how to explain it, but it seems more likely a plane hit the pentagon.

If they planned to use planes, and two of them failed, and they used a missile, then they would have had to have plans to use a missile as a backup. thats a lot of extra planning and work for a just in case the planes don't work.

Especially if there were no passengers by then.

I dont' understand what you mean. why wouldn't there be passengers. They would have been gassed.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:25am PT
How do I have to write this stuff, then five minutes later write it again?

Because sometimes you get too intense and I have to ignore you. Plus I really haven't read this whole thread. Just felt like jumping in tonight.

And no.. I hadn't heard about the passenger list.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:26am PT
I'll repeat myself:


The video in the OP has been taken down by YouTube.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:29am PT
I wonder why.. I never really looked that close at it because it was just too fuzzy and I don't trust much of this. I prefer information that has been researched by more then a few people because this whole thing is crazy.
jiff

Ice climber
colorado
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:32am PT
post 666
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:32am PT
Holy cow, that Flight 77 passenger list!

I wonder if they're all getting Brazilians right now.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:36am PT
Its surprising how few passengers, but not that surprising at the passenger manifest. Its washington. Thats all they do there.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:39am PT
A LOT of CIA spies and weapons designers and military scientists were on that plane.

You can't be serious? Really. That's should be as gross an insult to your intelligence as it is to the folks aboard the flight. It's moronic statements like that one which utterly destroy the credibility of conspiracy theorists.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:59am PT
I'm just telling you the way it is Rox. Lots of people tune you out at different times because you write a lot. Heck, karl is one of my best friends and when he gets on a tear, I sometimes tune him out. Meaning I don't read everything he writes. Mostly because I already know what he is going to say, but also because I'm not that interested in the subject.

It has nothing to do with whether I am weak sauce or not. Maybe I am, But getting upset with me because I don't hang on every word you write is also kind of weak sauce. This isn't a classroom and I'm not here to take a test.

Plus this thread is on a topic that has so much disinformation that I don't follow it that much anymore. The video wasn't that good and so much of this thread is a rehash. You may be intensely interested, but that doesn't mean I have to be.

Plus I'm dealing with a deep infection that has me feeling exhausted most days. So my focus isn't the best.

Its just the way it is. You asked why you keep having to repost things, and I'm telling you. These threads are long and I dont' follow them every day.


John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 1, 2011 - 03:08am PT
Thanks Riley. I will look at it tomorrow. I'm not really that concerned about flight 77. I mainly showed up tonight because I'm interested in the scientist who said there was thermite, and Cleo said it was paint. I want to know if the thermite has been dissproven.

Then I got caught up in splaining how it would be possible to do some of this stuff, simply as a mental exercise and because I like figuring out stuff like that, and Warbler has some interesting ideas. I didnt' really buy the video that started this thread. Nor have I followed it that closely.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 10:45am PT
Riley,
I haven't read all your links, I'll try when I get some free time.

But, I don't see how they can discount the claim that residue of thermite was found, without testing for thermite!


Also, have you seen any source debunk the reports of explosions within all three of the WTC building that fell?

That is very important, you know.



Call me a nut, but I find it very telling that the OP video was taken down. Although fuzzy, the video of a missile was pretty darn convincing.

And the photos of the missile painted up as a AA plane, also looked real to me. But I'm not expert in photo analysis--like the crusty old general who served for many years as a top-ranking officer in the Military.
monolith

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 11:56am PT
Explosives and Thermite now is the claim. Fantastico!
monolith

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
Just trying to see what the claim is Rox. So it's three buildings packed with explosives and thermite. Two of which are to be hit by airplanes, and the third is to be hit by a collapsing building, but the explosives don't go off for a few hours. Got it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
Edit: So Healy, I see something wrong with your list of the people who were on the flight. Why don't they list the four hijackers as being on board? Not a mention.

Are you utterly impaired? It's a list of the victims of the crime.
Gene

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
Is this the 'missing' video from the OP?

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/44286/NEW_9_11_VIDEO_MISSILE_STRIKE_PENTAGON/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
No Gene, that is not the video from the OP.

Here's a very interesting site on the timeline associated with 9-11:

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&timeperiod=1:00am%20Sept%2011%202001

It would take hours to go through this, I just posted the page for the day itself.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
How many times do you have to hear "Wait, now get this," before you say "Now wait a minute?"


Here's a list of some of the things that can't be debunked. Some of these just make me shake my head in disbelief.



Wait, now get this:
Condoleezza Rice denies knowing anything about using planes as missiles, although she had a report, "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States" -- in which, Rice admitted, references to earlier warnings of al Qaeda plans to hijack passenger airliners.


Wait, now get this:
They find Atta's passport in the NY street shortly after his plane hit the WTC tower.


Wait, now get this:
Three modern steel buildings fall to the ground, in their footprints, at nearly free-fall speed.


Wait, now get this:
The Official Story claims that WTC Bld 7 was felled by small office furniture fires.


Wait, now get this:
Multiple eye witnesses describe large explosions in the basement and lobbies of all the buildings shortly before they collapsed.


Wait, now get this:
A pilot with no jet training makes a very impressive 270-degree arching dive to precisely hit the Pentagon, even though a much easier flight path would have been sufficient to hit the target.


Wait, now get this:
There no wing or tail marks in the facade of the Pentagon where it was hit.


Wait, now get this:
The Official Story says the 757 at the Pentagon disintegrated upon impact, yet it was still able to punch clean holes through six 18" steel-reinforced concrete walls.


Wait, now get this:
The wall hit at the Pentagon was lined with security cameras, yet the Pentagon claims there is no footage of the jet impacting the building from these cameras.


Wait, now get this:
Many reports say people were forewarned of the attacks before they happened.


Wait, now get this:
Very soon after the attacks, the WH administration produced a long and detailed Patriot Act, which rescinded many civil rights from the people of the United States.


Wait, now get this:
The attacks were uses as a pretext to go to war with Iraq, even though there has been no linkage between the attacks and Iraq.


Wait, now get this:
An independent group tests the dust from the collapsed WTC buildings, and finds evidence of thremite, yet no official agency tasked with investigating 9-11 will administer a test for explosives.


Wait, now get this:
Secretary of Transportation Mineta testifies that Cheney seemed to give questionable orders about the hijacked plane approaching Pentagon.


Wait, now get this:
Very shortly after the attacks, the FBI listed all the hijackers and described how they carried out their plan.


Wait, now get this:
Several of the named hijackers turned up alive in different countries after 9-11.


Wait, now get this:
The tape of Bin Laden claiming responsibility for the attacks shows a man who is obviously not Bin Laden.




This, of course, is just a small list of the incredible things you have to swallow in order to believe the Official Story. I could go on and on, with each new addition being verifiable, and each one as incredibly hard to believe has the one preceding it.

At what point do *you* say "Now wait a minute?"
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Sep 1, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
The passenger list of the Pentagon flight had lots of CIA folks on it?

Actually if I trust that list, it looks exactly like what I would expect an DC to LA flight to look like. My dad worked for an aerospace company and flew that route frequently. There are tons of aerospace and military contractors in LA, so I'd expect those type of folks to be frequently flying back and forth to DC.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2011 - 09:18pm PT
All the spineless homo media outlets like CNN NYT FOX etc. will never tell the truth.

All the sheep read theses sites ......
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 1, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
What do we know:


Absolute fore knowledge that an attack was going to be done and on the WTC towers. We knew they were going to use aircraft to do so.


From before . . .


They "TPTB" knew what was going to happen and they used it to their advantage to accomplish what they wanted: LIHOP

Also they "TPTB" knew what they had to do to make it happen: MIHOP


**Eric Rockefeller revealed to Aaron Russo what the NWO wants and that something big was going to happen to be the pretext to go war and invade Afghanistan and Iraq before 9-11-2001.


**Lt. Mike Vreeland from the Pentagon revealed while jailed in Canada that 9-11-2001 would occur and what the events would be. He wrote this down and sealed it in an envelope and gave it to the Canadian authorities. They opened it after 9-11-2001 occurred. This has been verified in Canadian court.


**Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer reveals that US intelligence knew very specifically that the WTC towers would be attacked by aircraft before 9-11-2001 and she shares all the specific details and more. She was held in prison for 5 years by our US government on a Texas military base in attempts to silence her.



All of this verifies LIHOP and MIHOP.




Eric Rockefeller Reveals 9/11 FRAUD to Aaron Russo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA&feature=related



A White Knight Talking Backwards
SPY CASE IN CANADIAN COURTS SUGGESTS US NAVAL OFFICER HAD FOREKNOWLEDGE OF 9-11
by Michael C. Ruppert, Author of Crossing The Rubicon
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_25_02_revised_012802_vreeland.html
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_28_02_vreeland.jpg



Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1OW7b-oug

Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq [Paperback]
Susan Lindauer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Prejudice-Terrifying-Story-Patriot/dp/1453642757



Extreme Prejudice / Clear Evidence Of 9/11 Cover Up
By Allen L Roland (about the author)
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Extreme-Prejudice--Clear-by-Allen-L-Roland-110105-991.html


http://extremeprejudiceusa.wordpress.com/


"Spies Knew"




Cont. on what we know:


Richard Clarke admits that the CIA purposefully withheld information from other intelligence agencies concerning all involved in the 9-11-2001 plot involving "terrorists." They had a great amount of information/intelligence that they purposefully did not share with other agencies.


Considerable means, motive, and opportunity evidence exists that 9-11-2001 was planned and used as a pretext for endless war on "Terror," war-profiteering, and to radically weaken or eradicate our Constitution and our Civil Rights. Remember, PNAC needed "A New Pearl Harbor" to do and to achieve what they have been able to do since 9-11-2001.


If you can't believe that our government can do this, look at the history of false-flags that the US government has carried out. Read and know the details of "Operation Northwoods" to know this truth. In that plan they discussed in detail using false-flag hijackings, using remote aircraft, and killing of our own citizens/soldiers/people, and much more immoral and heinous crimes to take the US into war against Cuba.


Many federal agencies practiced emergency procedures and scenarios for just such a large scale terrorist attack such as 9-11.


Even the Pentagon practiced wargames with aircraft attacking the Pentagon prior to 9-11-2001.


We have Condi et al. saying "we couldn't imagine they would use aircraft as missiles." That is 100% USDA Bull Dung.


We also know that there where many wargames on 9-11-2001, 15+ or more.


Evidence that NORAD was given a stand down order after the attacks on 9-11-2001 began.


Many physical evidences show that the laws of Physics were suspended on 9-11-2001 if the OCT is held-up as true as told in the 9-11 Commission Report, for all 3 WTC towers to fall as they did due only to the 2 aircrafts slamming into them.


An incredible amount of physical evidence and eye-witness reports are ignored concerning demolition of all 3 WTC towers.


The absolute physical evidence of nano-superthermite found in the dust of all 3 WTC towers.


The physical evidence fits the fact that something other than a 757 slams into the Pentagon. The evidence that explosives were used is considerable.




The means, motive, and opportunity, and the physical evidence for LIHOP and MIHOP is fairly overwhelming. The OCT has been invalidated time and time again.

A new thorough and complete investigation of 9-11-2001 by an open and honest international community or commission must be done.

Re-investigate 9-11 now.










ericulner

climber
Southern Illinois
Sep 2, 2011 - 12:07am PT
Yes Joe, "utterly impaired" seems a good way to put it. These "klimmer" types are, as I stated in my first post in this thread, GOOFBALLS. Their need for conspiracies seems to be their outlet for public pondering in order to fulfill their quest of looking important. Kind of sad.

Notice how none of them can provide an answer to my original question-

Do missiles also carry lots of luggage, clothing, shoes, passenger seats, and the occasional poor soul still buckled therein?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 2, 2011 - 12:29am PT
You fail to read comprehensively.


No one has said it is or has to be only a missile and nothing else.


What we can say is AA flight 77, a 757, did not slam into the Pentagon.


It could very well be a much smaller jet that only seats a few, that can indeed fly very fast and below the radar and over the ground very low. Could have had more explosives on board also.

It could have been a missile, but it doesn't have to be.


The larger aircraft that did approach the Pentagon flew North of the Citgo gas station. The evidence shows it didn't slam into the Pentagon. Couldn't have with the empirical damage to the Pentagon on 9-11-2001. 2 different crafts from 2 slightly different directions. One slams in, the other flies over. Classic illusionist sleight of hand on a grand scale.

Flights can be switched and false-flags inserted. Read "Operation Northwoods," they talk specifically of doing this. That was in 1962. How much more can they do now with today's technology?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 2, 2011 - 12:40am PT
You can't call them nuts or whack-jobs . . .




In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility. I welcome it.
— John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address Jan. 20, 1961



220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
1,500+ Engineers and Architects
250+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
400+ Professors Question 9/11
300+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals
400+ Medical Professionals



http://patriotsquestion911.com/








“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
-- Benjamin Franklin quotes (American Statesman, Scientist, Philosopher, Printer, Writer and Inventor. 1706-1790)

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 2, 2011 - 01:48am PT
220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
1,500+ Engineers and Architects
250+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
400+ Professors Question 9/11
300+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals
400+ Medical Professionals

Post up when your list includes:

2 WTC janitors
2 WTC painters
2 WTC telcom workers
2 WTC network administrators
2 WTC security guards
2 WTC facilities managers
2 WTC office workers
2 WTC office managers

all from each of the floors immediately above, below, and involved in the collisions...

Because they're the only ones who can testify whether or not those floors were rigged, which you can be sure weren't.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 2, 2011 - 05:25am PT
They had literally many hundreds of cables rigged in tension inside about 50 columns. It would be more accurate to say that the columns held the cables that the floors were suspended from.

Would you be so kind as to clarify this with some references / images as I don't recall any such design details.
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 10:21am PT
It's so adorable how RokJox makes stuff up.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 2, 2011 - 10:50am PT
monoligth, healyje: What is your explanation for the explosions in the lobbies & basements of the WTC?

I have yet to hear any Believer address this.

But then again, I think I know why they ignore this altogether.


Because they're the only ones who can testify

What does it matter who testifies? The ones that fit in with the Official Story get press, those that don't, well: IGNORE!

Meneta testified under oath. Why was his testimony left out or the work of the 9-11 commission?


MANY eye witnesses told of explosions in the buildings. What? No mention in the 9-11 Commission Report? How strange?!?
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 11:02am PT
Explained here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRCTkSJOViY

Explain the purpose of explosives in the basement and you won't get laughed at so often K-Man.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 2, 2011 - 11:34am PT
monolith, you made me watch that piece of CRAP.

This video does nothing but DENY eye witness accounts of EXPLOSIONS, you numbskull.

What about the explosions witnessed in WTC Bld 7. Man, what a fool for buying that "fireballs" down the elevators BS.

Let me easily debunk the video you posted: The explosions occurred way after the planes hit, and long after the raging fires were burned out. In other words, no more fireballs down the elevator shafts.

To think that the NYPD folks don't know what an explosion is, man. (Also, concussive explosions were caught on tape.)

The fact that all the Believers have is DENIAL on this subject goes a long way towards showing the length that these folks will go to believe the stories they are told.
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 11:39am PT
Not everything that makes a loud noise is an explosion K-Man.

I see you are avoiding the question K-Man.

What is the purpose of bombs in the basement?
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Sep 2, 2011 - 11:43am PT
ok I'm confused. Is a Truther the same as a Believer? or the opposite?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 2, 2011 - 11:57am PT
A Truther is one who seeks the truth behind the 9-11 attacks, a Believer is one who believes the Official Story.


Dr. F. the fact is, an independent group tested the dust from the collapsed WTC building and found the the tale-tell sings of explosives.

Why would the official groups investigating the attacks not test for explosives in an effort to rule out the possibility that there were explosives there?

As for the angle on complacency: Mineta. Why was this not investigated further?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 2, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
monolith, I am not trying to explain the events.

Read that twice, because I've said it before.




But, I do think that explosions in the basements and lobbies of the WTC buildings is an important event that should be investigated.


I've said this before too: I believe the 9-11 Commission Report is full of lies and distortions, and ignores important facts and events. I think an unbiased investigation should be opened.

Get it?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 2, 2011 - 12:03pm PT
I agree Dr. F. And that is why I'd like to see an official agency test for explosives to transparently show there were none there.


There are many eye witness accounts, and tape, of explosions. Controlled demolition is the most plausible explanation for the way WTC Bld 7 fell. Why not test?

The fact that they don't makes me wonder: Are they afraid of what they will find?
Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Sep 2, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
"No one knows what happened to building seven, but it will be proved that it wasn't rigged for demolition."



Do you have an eta for this proof? You could save us time and speculation.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Sep 2, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
what do you call someone like Dr F who doesn't believe either side only that it's Bush's fault?
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
People in the basement heard and felt several events. They felt the crash, they heard the elevators crashing, they heard the fuel exploding in the shafts. It's difficult to know what's happening during stress.

Offer a better explanation to the standard explanation, and you will get more interest in a new investigation.

There's no purpose for bombs in the basement. I bet RokJox could make up something.
Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Sep 2, 2011 - 12:17pm PT
"There's no purpose for bombs in the basement. I bet RokJox could make up something."


Yeah, why would anyone bomb the basement?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_World_Trade_Center_bombing
"The 1,336 lb (606 kg) urea nitrate–hydrogen gas enhanced device[1] was intended to knock the North Tower (Tower One) into the South Tower (Tower Two), bringing both towers down and killing thousands of people."
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
Hilarious, Caveman. Why would the NWO put bombs in the basement when they already had framed Islamic terrorists flying planes into the building?

Use some neurons, dude.
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
List a few reasons why the NWO would put bombs in the basement, when they already had planes flying into the building?

Did these massive bombs go off on 9/11 like the earlier truck bomb did? Why no firefighter/police reports of massive damage in the basement like after the truck bomb, which was not powerful enough to bring the building down?

Flying planes into the building requires no onsight involvment.

No cables held up the floors, oatmeal brains.
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
No concrete in the core silly boy, just steel. Concrete was used on the floors in the core and office space, but not used in the vertical structural members above the first few floors.

So Rox, are you saying bombs in the basement caused the progressive collapse from the plane impact point?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 2, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
many things from a demolished building would be a positive detection hit for explosives

This is the statement that I was agreeing with from Dr. F., I do not believe the statement that the buildings being brought down by explosives was debunked.

Sorry if I confused you.
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
Jolly, they didn't fall in the same fashion. Wtc 1 and 2 collapsed from the impact point. In WTC 7, the supports for the east mechanical penthouse gave way and it plunged through the building, eventually compromising the supports for the north side facade. Seems like you would know these things after all these years.

Yea, Jolly, trot out that u-tube video proving 45 seconds minimum collapse. You know, the calculations that don't use gravity, or accumulating mass, after the first floor impact. Hilarious. What a dumbass you are.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 2, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
the supports for the east mechanical penthouse gave way and it plunged through the building, eventually compromising the supports for the north side facade.


Hahahahahaha. Yes, small office furniture fires caused the "east mechanical penthouse" to collapse. Right.

But then it gets better: "eventually compromising the supports for the north side facade."

Eventually? Like, a couple seconds later? And, big boy, it wasn't a "facade," it was the entire friggin' structure. Simultaneous falling at free-fall speeds.

Hey, how about a test for explosives? You know, the most easily-explained way for the building to have fallen in that fashion. All other models are so convoluted, they remind me of the Gary Larson cartoon:

"And then a miracle happens"

Office furniture fires, that's so funny, except they are trying to be serious.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
Well this circle's, still a jerking,
By and by, Lord by and by.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 2, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
Still no explanation on the explosions in the buildings, except to deny.

You see, that is the keystone to the Believers. When Truthers bring up a fact of evidence that goes contrary to their beliefs, they DENY it happened!

So predictable.

Go up a page or so to my list of "Wait, now get this." I quickly put that together.

Take a look, how many of the facts there do you deny, or brush off without an answer?

OK, I admit, it's hard to verify that listed hijackers were later found to be alive and well in other countries. Especially with the media the way it is. But how about ALL the other things?

Swallow it up boys.
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
Post it Jolly. It's in your posting history. Do I have to search for it for you?

Gravity was only used to calculate the first floor impact velocity, then discarded for the rest of the collapse, and assuming constant velocity. No accumulating mass either.

You are supposed to be some kind of an engineer right? A bad one I reckon.
Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Sep 2, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
"Hilarious, Caveman. Why would the NWO put bombs in the basement when they already had framed Islamic terrorists flying planes into the building?

Use some neurons, dude."


I'm not saying who, just saying why. If people are flying airliners into buildings to bring them down then why not bombs in the basement. It had been tried before with those same buildings. If I was in charge of knocking a building over then charges are a cinch over a airplane. I watched a few videos of the building 7 collapse and IMHO that was text book razing Loizeaux style.

Edit to add: What was the quote? Something like...." we're going to pull it" Using what neurons I have I add that up to one thing and it doesn't involve cables.
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
Hey K-Man, since you are so into eyewitness reports, what about all those who report seeing an airliner slam into the Pentagon?

Edit: that's not the quote and you've taken it out of context.
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
Caveman, the goal was not to knock down a building.

Don't you think 500 dead from 4 suicide airliner crashes and 3 smoking icons would be enough to justify whatever we wanted to do in the ME?

Why add another method that didn't work the first time?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 2, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
They can't, and they wont. They will now change the topic.... Same thing happened with the alien moon space ship thread. f*#king retards.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 2, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
momo, yes, folks did see a plane fly into the Pentagon.

But the evidence doesn't fully support that event happening. I know, very strange.

That's why it would be so helpful for the Pentagon to release the films they have. They way they cover things up makes it look very suspicious.

And who took down the OP video??

It says "CollapseMovie", but that film has been released and it does not show the said footage (and the movie is about peak oil, not 9-11). Plus, Rupert wrote "Crossing the Rubicon," a book blowing the 9-11 Official Story out of the water. Why would he want to take down the video, it supports his POV--does not make sense.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 2, 2011 - 05:13pm PT
soo i haven't been keeping up here, at last look, the missile thing had been thoroughly tromped along with the bldg 7 thing

Funny, you're they guy who says that the 9-11 Truth movement is just a couple of poorly-written blogs (when in fact that hare dozens of books, feature-length films, numerous full-blown web sites, state officials and military personnel, and more, backing the Truth movement).

Where do you see WTC Bld 7 being brought down by controlled demo debunked?

Say, aren't you they guy who went running when I showed you reasons to believe the WTC Bld 7 could have been brought down with explosives?

Yeah, you're the guy who said "Who gives a snot about Building 7 anyways."

LOL Ron.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 2, 2011 - 05:40pm PT
Yikes!


OK, once again, I find myself getting pulled into this large circle jerk, as it was so well put earlier.

We can all argue this till blue in the face. The truth is, I gotta take a Ron, and I can't waste time getting all excited about this stuff when there is really no outlet.

I got my Truther beliefs, and you got your Believer beliefs. And without further "proof," the two won't mix well.

I've said my stance: I think it'd be great if there were a real and true investigation into the mess. But it just ain't gonna happen.

So now, once again, I'll try to extricate myself from this thread and watch from the sidelines where I can scratch my head and wonder about all the inconsistencies and miracles that the Official Story contains.

Cheers!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 2, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
The structural design of the WTC didn't include tension cabling of any kind that I can find. There are no plans, designs or schematics which illustrate such a design feature and no text delineating it from what I can tell.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Sep 2, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
What's the difference between 9/11 and a cow?



























You stop milking a cow after 10 years.
Gene

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
COW being an acronym for Conservatives for Overseas Wars, right?

monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
Here's Jolly's UTube genius boy who calculates 44 seconds for minimum collapse time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_j1jAv1j3U

At 4:09 he calculates a velocity and a deceleration (bogus anyway, but lets roll with it) and assumes the same deceleration throughout the collapse.

In other words, since the falling mass decelerated when it hit the first floor, he assumes it will keep decelerating in the same manner. Of course, he forgets that the mass will accelerate between floors, so now it's going faster when it hits the second floor then when it hit the first floor.

See what I mean Jolly, he doesn't use gravity any more after the first collision.
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
Have there been any other identical highrises hit by airliners?

See, two can play the 'first time in history game'.

And yes, the steel only portion of the Madrid building collapsed to the fire wall floor from a fire only, no airplane hit.
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
But it was hit by a collapsing 100+ story highrise.

It's embarrassing to know so much.

Google will find the Madrid building links.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:27pm PT
Does this tin foil hat make me look fat?
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
Jolly, thats a totally worthless calculation if you don't think the mass will accelerate between floors. What the heck do you think the mass will do once a floor has given way? It's a freaking no brainer. You look very foolish to put so much value in this hilarious video.

See the peer reviewed study by Bazant for the correct way to do the calculations. He comes up with a much shorter time, and assumes the supports for the floor offer no resistance. Only the mass of each floor needs to be accelerated when the falling mass hits it.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
Back to basics people . . .

Found in the dust of the WTC towers -- super nano-thermite. It is not paint and here is why . . . empirical science validates what it is and invalidates what it isn't.


Nano-Thermite explosions in dust at WTC 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUemun0iy_s



An overview of the scientific paper . . .

Explosives Found in
World Trade Center Dust
Scientists Discover Both Residues
And Unignited Fragments
Of Nano-Engineered Thermitic Pyrotechnics
In Debris From the Twin Towers
by
Jim Hoffman
Version 1.00, April 3, 2009

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/explosive_residues.html





NIST continues to resist to test for explosives in the dust of 9-11-2001 from the WTC towers. Why? If you are doing an open honest investigation you consider and test for all possible scenarios.

That is absolutely dishonest that they refuse to do so and indicates a cover-up.

Investigate 9-11-2001 now. Investigate with an independent International Commission that is open, honest, thorough, and looks at all the evidence without cherry picking. You have to look at all possible scenarios and invalidate them one at a time. That is how honest investigations are performed. That is how science is done.
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
Warbler, the more damage to the building there is, the easier it is for the fires to have an impact later on. Technically, the three buildings survived the impacts. None survived the fires.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 2, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
monolith the disinfo tool was obviously inside the towers watching everything happening in real time.

Thus he knows everything that happened.

What a tool .....
ericulner

climber
Southern Illinois
Sep 2, 2011 - 11:00pm PT
Mr. Jox, I don't need a link to prove anything about post-crash pentagon. I only needed to hear it from those who there within 15 minutes and saw the wreckage with their own eyes.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 2, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
I imagine all you skeptics get a real nice basket from the Easter Bunny.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 2, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
Easter Bunny basket is nice.

Better than the dog sh'it you're eating ......
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 2, 2011 - 11:37pm PT
I always assumed they rig it with explosive on the day and pulled it, no big conspiracy.

Quite an admission. So you think it came down from explosives, which is what a lot us think or thought.

Very interesting Coz. Why do you think they rigged it with explosives? Whenever they did it..
monolith

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
No Jolly, your utube guy says the mass was slowing down.

He calculates a negative acceleration of -.0223

At 3:13 he says, "we have a deceleration here, not an acceleration"

then at 5:07 he plugs the negative acceleration into:

d = vt + (1/2)at^2

He's saying the mass is slowing down, and if there had been enough floors it would have stopped. LOL!

The point of Bazant was to show that if you just had to accelerate the masses of each floor, what would be the time of collapse.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 3, 2011 - 12:55am PT
Do all the fancy math you want. It is utterly irrelevant. You don't know what you are talking about.

I hate to agree with Skipt...but he's damn right.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Sep 3, 2011 - 01:46am PT
Well there it is .... now that Klimmer is in you know it is all bullsh#t.
That is enough proof for me. Must have been the outer space guys from the ark on the back side of the moon come to earth to fool us all about 9-11.
apogee

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 02:07am PT
It doesn't happen very often, and every time it does, I feel a little bit dizzy.

But this time....I'm with you, skipt.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 3, 2011 - 02:13am PT
Cable design links? Anyone?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 3, 2011 - 10:29am PT
Repeating for emphasis . . .

Investigate 9-11 now.


They led about the phone calls on AA flight 77.

They lied about the stand down orders that Norman Mineta heard VP Dick Cheney refer to in the WH Bunker.

American Intelligence General, General Stubblebine says 911 was a fraud. He did the photo-analysis on his own and knows that no AA flight 77, a 757 went into the Pentagon.

Senator Bob Kerrey a 9-11 Commissioner finally confesses 9-11 Commission could not do it's job. Their hands were tied. They were not given enough time nor money to investigate. He admits all of this. And he admits the conspiracy goes back 30 years (actually even further because he was referring to JFK).

The 9-11 Commission Report was a purposeful white-wash, just like the Warren Commission Report. Both were designed to only verify the OCT and not to investigate the truth.



Lies, lies, lies, lies, lies.


When are you naysayers going to wake-up?




--------------------------------------------------------------




No reason to argue about AA Flight 77 and cell phones or phones at all.

We already have come to the truth on the matter. The FBI told us in trial . . .

"trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called 20th hijacker. The evidence presented to this trial by the FBI included a report on phone calls from all four 9/11 flights. In its report on American Flight 77, the FBI report attributed only one call to Barbara Olson and it was an “unconnected call,” which (of course) lasted “0 seconds.”9 According to the FBI, therefore, Ted Olson did not receive a single call from his wife using either a cell phone or an onboard phone."


FBI: 9/11 cell phone calls from jets did not happen
http://www.zimbio.com/Ted+Olson/articles/6gELkGlBsd7/FBI+9+11+cell+phone+calls+jets+not+happen





There was an obvious stand down order coming from VP Dick Cheney.
When they didn't shoot down the fast craft approaching the Pentagon when they fully knew it and the military personnel under the WH bunker was counting down the distances with plenty of time to prevent it, and then asks Cheney if the orders still stands?, and Cheney says "They still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"

Well, the craft was never fired upon. It was allowed to strike the Pentagon. The order given was a stand down order. Plain and simple. No other explanation is possible.


911 Commission - Trans. Sec Norman Mineta Testimony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y
Mineta and the secret orders of Cheney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGI5BmNd7AE&NR=1




American Intelligence General, General Stubblebine Says 911 was a fraud
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slEM9aaLkYA&feature=related

General Stubblebine NOW, Lives in Latin America, in Remote area, [ WHY ?] was the top of USA intelligence gathering when he retired, He is the highest ranking retired General to investigate on 9-11.

And LISTEN to what he said, but was not reported by our American Media, but by Foreign Media, note the German Sub-titles. Americans are getting perpetual LIES spoon fed to them.

This retired General tells you truth. He has no reason to lie after a lifetime of service to the USA:
Pentagon not hit by a plane
WTC 7 brought down by Explosives
MEDIA is controlled



Onto the 9-11 Commission . . .

Truthers ask hard questions of Senator Bob Kerry, member of the 9-11 Commission, at an ESRI ARCGIS conference he was giving a speech at (ESRI the makers of the best GIS software in the World), with Jack Dangermond the CEO of ESRI standing near by. 9-11 Truth happens where ever you are . . .


9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey finally confesses 9-11 Commission could not do it's job - Part 1 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrqq2KxyWAs&NR=1
9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey finally confesses 9-11 Commission could not do it's job - Part 2 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fczMuxtOEU8&feature=watch_response_rev
9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey finally confesses 9-11 Commission could not do it's job - Part 3 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJWBcWAeAw&feature=player_embedded#!

9/11 Commissioner and ex Senator Bob Kerrey from Nebraska was asked at the end of this video and mentioned “We are dealing with a 30 year conspiracy” and claimed there was not enough time to properly investigate all the data.

He admits the truth of the conspiracy of 9-11 even reaches back all the way to the truth of the assassination of JFK. Amazing admonitions.




My President that they assassinated told us the truth . . . and they hated him for it. He was perhaps one of the last great Presidents of our Country.

JFK telling us the 911 truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxnpujfanUM&feature=related

RFK to Johnson: "Why did have my brother killed?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzWNDPx4Pm0&feature=related

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 3, 2011 - 10:35am PT
So Locker, why do you do that?
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 3, 2011 - 11:13am PT
Prove to me the Easter Bunny doesn't exist, Werner. Same logic you're using in your idiotic rants. Feeble.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 3, 2011 - 11:37am PT
Can't wait to see the next threads:

"I climbed with Elvis today"
"Faked moon landing photos for sale. See me in YOSAR"
"Area 51 man from outer space sited on Half Dome cables"
"Crop circles in Modesto the work of alien climbers!"
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 3, 2011 - 11:50am PT
Once again . . .



What do we know:


Absolute fore knowledge that an attack was going to be done and on the WTC towers. We knew they were going to use aircraft to do so.


From before . . .


They "TPTB" knew what was going to happen and they used it to their advantage to accomplish what they wanted: LIHOP

Also they "TPTB" knew what they had to do to make it happen: MIHOP


**Eric Rockefeller revealed to Aaron Russo what the NWO wants and that something big was going to happen to be the pretext to go war and invade Afghanistan and Iraq before 9-11-2001.


**Lt. Mike Vreeland from the Pentagon revealed while jailed in Canada that 9-11-2001 would occur and what the events would be. He wrote this down and sealed it in an envelope and gave it to the Canadian authorities. They opened it after 9-11-2001 occurred. This has been verified in Canadian court.


**Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer reveals that US intelligence knew very specifically that the WTC towers would be attacked by aircraft before 9-11-2001 and she shares all the specific details and more. She was held in prison for 5 years by our US government on a Texas military base in attempts to silence her.



All of this verifies LIHOP and MIHOP.




Eric Rockefeller Reveals 9/11 FRAUD to Aaron Russo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA&feature=related



A White Knight Talking Backwards
SPY CASE IN CANADIAN COURTS SUGGESTS US NAVAL OFFICER HAD FOREKNOWLEDGE OF 9-11
by Michael C. Ruppert, Author of Crossing The Rubicon
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_25_02_revised_012802_vreeland.html
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_28_02_vreeland.jpg



Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1OW7b-oug

Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq [Paperback]
Susan Lindauer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Prejudice-Terrifying-Story-Patriot/dp/1453642757



Extreme Prejudice / Clear Evidence Of 9/11 Cover Up
By Allen L Roland (about the author)
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Extreme-Prejudice--Clear-by-Allen-L-Roland-110105-991.html


http://extremeprejudiceusa.wordpress.com/

American Cassandra - Susan Lindauer’s Story
Wednesday, 17 October 2007, 2:43 pm
Article: Michael Collins
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0710/S00266.htm




"Spies Knew"




Cont. on what we know:


Richard Clarke admits that the CIA purposefully withheld information from other intelligence agencies concerning all involved in the 9-11-2001 plot involving "terrorists." They had a great amount of information/intelligence that they purposefully did not share with other agencies.


Considerable means, motive, and opportunity evidence exists that 9-11-2001 was planned and used as a pretext for endless war on "Terror," war-profiteering, and to radically weaken or eradicate our Constitution and our Civil Rights. Remember, PNAC needed "A New Pearl Harbor" to do and to achieve what they have been able to do since 9-11-2001.


If you can't believe that our government can do this, look at the history of false-flags that the US government has carried out. Read and know the details of "Operation Northwoods" to know this truth. In that plan they discussed in detail using false-flag hijackings, using remote aircraft, and killing of our own citizens/soldiers/people, and much more immoral and heinous crimes to take the US into war against Cuba.


Many federal agencies practiced emergency procedures and scenarios for just such a large scale terrorist attack such as 9-11.


Even the Pentagon practiced wargames with aircraft attacking the Pentagon prior to 9-11-2001.


We have Condi et al. saying "we couldn't imagine they would use aircraft as missiles." That is 100% USDA Bull Dung.


We also know that there where many wargames on 9-11-2001, 15+ or more.


Evidence that NORAD was given a stand down order after the attacks on 9-11-2001 began.


Many physical evidences show that the laws of Physics were suspended on 9-11-2001 if the OCT is held-up as true as told in the 9-11 Commission Report, for all 3 WTC towers to fall as they did due only to the 2 aircrafts slamming into them.


An incredible amount of physical evidence and eye-witness reports are ignored concerning demolition of all 3 WTC towers.


The absolute physical evidence of nano-superthermite found in the dust of all 3 WTC towers.


The physical evidence fits the fact that something other than a 757 slams into the Pentagon. The evidence that explosives were used is considerable.




The means, motive, and opportunity, and the physical evidence for LIHOP and MIHOP is fairly overwhelming. The OCT has been invalidated time and time again.

A new thorough and complete investigation of 9-11-2001 by an open and honest international community or commission must be done.

Re-investigate 9-11 now.




Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 3, 2011 - 11:51am PT
Big Foot does NIAD. Blurry photos to follow.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 3, 2011 - 11:55am PT
You can't ignore her . . .

Our US government had her in a military prison for 5 years to try to shut her up.

Truth bubbles to the surface . . .


Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1OW7b-oug







Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq [Paperback]
Susan Lindauer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Prejudice-Terrifying-Story-Patriot/dp/1453642757


Extreme Prejudice / Clear Evidence Of 9/11 Cover Up
By Allen L Roland (about the author)
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Extreme-Prejudice--Clear-by-Allen-L-Roland-110105-991.html


http://extremeprejudiceusa.wordpress.com/

American Cassandra - Susan Lindauer’s Story
Wednesday, 17 October 2007, 2:43 pm
Article: Michael Collins
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0710/S00266.htm








"Spies knew"
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
That's right Big foot did NIAD unlike you, Betelnut, who sits at home wasting his time wondering who's right or wrong.

What an idiot .....

Even Coz and warbler ain't stupid enough to fall for my bullsh'it .....
Meaty

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
Excellent thread/discussion.

Something that always seems to be missing in the arguments from those that can't seem to grasp the giant holes and facts that just don't add up from the "official" government fantasy conclusion regarding 911, is questioning their completely blind trust of that "official" 911 report or ANY other official report from a government with a record of decades of lying and deceit.

No one should ever take any so-called official report or story line of any event as a done deal, the truth, time to put it to rest...etc.
Anyone that does is blinded by the propaganda and deceit produced by our government for generations. Just regard the WMD's lie for the excuse/reason to invade and occupy Iraq. Just regard the continued occupation and imperial hubris madness we are still engaged in Afghanistan, the graveyard of empires. We're still spending $10 - $12 billion a month there, for what, why? Lies and deceit to allow war pigs to profit and the neocon madmen to play out their wet dreams. Just one of many, many examples of deceit from our so-called leaders.

Cheney was the POTUS that day, Bush was shitting in his shorts reading My Pet Goat to school kids. The fact is anyone that defends the "official" story is defending war criminal scumbags who are running around selling books bragging about those crimes, how pitiful!
Deceit and propaganda work, don't believe the hype.

WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
When the official version TOOLS stop bullshitting, lying, guessing and speculating then we'll be getting somewhere .....
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
You haven't made your case either.

What a crock "experts" all disguised as lying cheating hypocrites.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 3, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
Once again for the billionth time it is both: LIHOP and MIHOP.


Listen to Susan explain why. I have always thought this to. You need a patsy that does indeed occur. You have to have a cover. However, they also take care of business to assure their success and make it happen.

That is how they do it. They did that with JFK, Robert Kennedy, and MLK Jr. You have the fall-guy involved on a limited basis for cover, then you have operatives who take-care of the fine details and are the back-up insurance to make sure it happens just as they want it to.

Then if there is ever an investigation, you start up a commission that is completely in your pocket and they are only allowed to verify the OCT and nothing more.

How many times do we have to go through this before everyone knows their MO?


You can't ignore her . . .

Our US government had her in a military prison for 5 years to try to shut her up.

Truth bubbles to the surface . . .


Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1OW7b-oug







Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq [Paperback]
Susan Lindauer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Prejudice-Terrifying-Story-Patriot/dp/1453642757


Extreme Prejudice / Clear Evidence Of 9/11 Cover Up
By Allen L Roland (about the author)
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Extreme-Prejudice--Clear-by-Allen-L-Roland-110105-991.html


http://extremeprejudiceusa.wordpress.com/

American Cassandra - Susan Lindauer’s Story
Wednesday, 17 October 2007, 2:43 pm
Article: Michael Collins
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0710/S00266.htm








"Spies knew"





It wasn't our entire US government that did this. Just as Susan explains there are factions in the US intelligence. You have "White Hats" and you have "Black Hats" to explain it simply. The "Black Hats" in our government are the ones who pulled this off and involved whomever they needed to who think just like they do and who can keep their mouths shut.

But stuff is leaking. Leaking big-time. Word is getting out. The World is waking-up.


Same goes for Israel. I love the Nation of Israel. I'm a Christian. However, there are "Black Hats" and there are "White Hats" more than likely in the Israeli government also. They do not all see eye to eye.

There are extremists in nearly all nation governments who think just like the Neocons and the NWO. They know themselves. They know who they are. And they do conspire to do evil on a global level for their own selfish purposes.
Meaty

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 02:19pm PT

Skipt,


Why should we care about our government lying/deceiving?

Meaty

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
Skipt,
Not a very good answer.
The speculators are those that buy into so-called "official" government reports.
The roots of the word "sheeple"
Meaty

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
Skipt,
Yes, deceit did happen in the past, the 911 report?? I don't believe anything the neocons say.


The MIC rules, get in their way, end up like JFK!!

The MIC and the neocon madmen do rule, and they do want to rule the world.
Imperial madness has never worked out very well, always failed miserably.
Meaty

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
Skipt,
If you claim I haven't made the case official government report regarding many, many incidents in our short history as a nation are clearly fantasy then there is no use conversing with you. Only the very weak mind buys into so-called official stories about anything.
The word sheeple fits your mentality quite well.

I'm not yelling, screaming nor speculating. Just stating the fact that no one should ever regard an official government report as the truth or final word on any incident because of the well documented history of deceit.
Pretty simple.
Meaty

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
Oh no, I'm not lying about the deceit spewed from the US government!
Your friends work for the military? The MIC comes down hard on those employed by them for telling the truth. Just check out Bradly Manning for one example.
Meaty

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
Coz, I made no claim about government having one voice. Just stating the well known fact "official" government reports are famous for being deceitful.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Sep 3, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
OoomchickaOomchickaOomchickaOomchickaOomchickaOoomchickaOomchickaOomchickaOomchickaOomchickaOoomchickaOomchickaOomchickaOomchickaOomchickaOoomchickaOomchickaOomchickaOomchickaOomchickaoom.
This thread needed some Techno.
Meaty

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
Ron, that is my point, they never have and never will.

Skipt, no lecture from me, just the fact you're choosing to ignore the most important part of this discussion hence the truther nonsense.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you're free to buy into pure lies from the 911 report. It was written for folks like you.
I'm not denying hundreds of people claim to have seen a plane hitting the Pentagon, I'm simply saying I don't buy into anything the neocons claim, I don't blindly believe much of what the military claims. I'm also not claiming to be an expert on the subject of 911.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 3, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
I like how everyone on this thread thinks he's expert, as if there's no possibility you've misunderstood or misrepresented information.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 3, 2011 - 03:32pm PT
Hey, let's see the list of famous conspiracy theories that have been exposed.....
Waiting.........
monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
All mass accelerates at the same rate. Remember the story about the guy with the cannonball and the little ball?

When the huge falling mass hits a smaller mass, the smaller mass is accelerated much faster then if it is allowed to just drop, till it reaches the combined mass velocity.

Try to focus on your reading comprehension skills, Rox. That way you won't make stuff up like floors held up by cables.
monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
Those are much smaller scale and discovered within a few years. These guys couldn't plant WMD's in Iraq or or even get any Afganis or Iraqis on the hijack teams, yet are given credit for the most massive conspiracy of all time.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 3, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
Wondering what all these people that were behind this conspiracy, got to be at least in the thousands that knew or were in on it, from the guys that planted the thermite, throwing passports/papers, adding engines, black boxes, making sure to hit the pentagon where it was not updated with correct blast mitigation even when the other side had been, and everything else. Just wondering what they are going to come up with on Sept 11th for the anniversary.

Too simple if it was just stupid people at the helm. CIA not communicating with FBI. Camera or video not correct, old techology, old buildings, old people without a clue.

Too simple

Maybe more storms and fires, floods or earthquakes. They need to think of something big.
monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
Oh, Tami, using the cave in Afghanistan crap. He didn't go to caves till after 9/11. He had a compound in Kandahar.

And you really think it was difficult to get 19 islamic jihadists to go on a suicide mission?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 3, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
got to be at least in the thousands that knew or were in on it

Nope.. not true. Some theories keep it well below 50 people,
and that includes the 20 terrorists.
It just depends on what level of conspiracy you are talking about.

In America.. a few people in the CIA, a few upper level politicians,
maybe the head of security at the world trade center,
then add a few operatives, plus a programmer or two and the terrorist,
and you could make it happen.

I'm not saying that is what happened.
I'm just saying it could be done.
It just depends on the level of complicity and what was actually done.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Sep 3, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
Klimmer has very carefully explained LIHOP and MIHOP to us. They almost sound believable.

But he has missed the two more likely theories about what happened that day:

IHOP - The disaster was organized by the International House of Pancakes which everyone knows is just a money laundering arm of the international illuminati. This easily explains the pancaking effect seen in the collapse of the WTC buildings, and the fact that the object impacting with the Pentagon, when viewed in slow motion, bears a much closer resemblance to a giant syrup bottle than a Boeing jetliner. And syrup, as everyone knows, burns very hot and with alot of smoke and carbonization.

HIPHOP - The disaster was in fact a part of the well-known East Coast rappers vs. West Coast rappers feud. It was organized not by Bin Laden, but rather by Tupac, who is not dead, but rather living in a cave in South Central. Hasn't anyone noticed that no major West Coast rappers were listed among those killed? And less well known is the fact that Kanye, P Diddy and Jay-Z were supposed to be having brunch at Windows on the World that morning, but unexpectedly had to cancel when Kanye's Bentley had a flat tire. Finally it should be obvious that the rumors of the "hijackers" visiting strip clubs and drinking make no sense at all if they were really devout Muslims. On the other hand, that behaviour would be exactly what one would expect from gangsta groupies about to go to war for Tupac.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 3, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
Us who seek the Truth behind the attacks of 9-11, we've been called kooks, crazy, have been told we have our heads up our asses, and worse. Those with first-hand accounts that contradict the Official Story are spit upon and their characters assassinated. This is all as can be expected and is, in fact, predicted.

However, when the Truth Seekers are said to denigrate the ones whose lives were taken on that day, well, that's a just a bridge too far.

Everybody who stands for democracy and the fight of good over evil should want to see those who are responsible for the attacks to be exposed and be held accountable. Not just to get revenge for our anger over the attacks, but also to honor the ones whose lives were changed forever by that day. To let the perpetrators go without accountability is irresponsible and is the act that denigrates the lives that were taken on that day.

The Believers feel strongly that they know the perps of 9-11. Immediately after the attacks, our news organizations and official investigative agencies told us steadfastly that it was Al Quieda, and more precisely, a group of 19 hijackers who carried out the events of that day. Immediately, the "facts" were put forth, and we ate them up as if we were at an all-you-can-eat pancake breakfast. And our response to the findings was swift, direct, and strong.

The call for an investigation into the events was delayed for years. Why should we waste our time (and money) looking into these things, we already knew what happened. Sure, there were weaknesses in our intelligence branches, and we knew of the obvious gaps in our agencies ability to link the dots. People dropped the ball. We know that, why all the fuss to do an investigation to find out what we already knew?

But, to satisfy the people's growing need to find out exactly what went wrong, the 9-11 Commission was formed. And Lo!, they concluded just what we knew and believed all along. 19 hijackers. No more, no less.

However, as time passed and people had a chance to review the commission's findings, cracks in the story started to appear. It was clear, key evidence was ignored and buried. Implausible reasons were cited for every turn in the story and unbelievable accounts were taken as truth for just about every action that was, or was not, taken.

Although it has been shown that the models which "proved" how the Twin Towers fell were rigged, it was found to be even stranger that WTC Building 7 was missing altogether from the 9-11 Commission Report. Curious, a 47 story WTC building collapsed on that day, but the commission didn't find it important enough to include in its report.

The outcry for this omission was met by the Gov't assigning to FEMA the task to investigate. When FEMA couldn't supply a solution that fit with the Official Story, NIST was given the job, where upon they concluded "small office fires" caused the collapse. No causation from the building's damage from falling WTC Tower, no mention of the diesel gas tank. Small fires was the total cause of simultaneous failure of the entire building.

So implausible was the findings in the NIST report that the Believers went out on their own to solve the mystery. Several anonymous web sites appeared with detailed analysis and explanations of how the building collapsed, and of course none of these explanations had anything to do with explosives (the most easily-explained reason for the downfall of the building).

And here lies the point of my essay: So eager are the Believers to take the Official Story and run with it, that they themselves deny the Official Story in an attempt to explain how the Official Story is true and just. So steadfast is their need to believe the story told to us by the media and the Gov't that they don't see the hypocrisy in citing contradictions to the Official Story in an attempt to prove it correct.

So steadfast is their need to believe the story told to us by the media and the Gov't that they don't see the hypocrisy in citing contradictions to the Official Story in an attempt to prove it correct.

Hundreds of reputable and reliable witnesses have been silenced, ignored, and castigated. Testimony under oath by a senior official in the administration was left to wither without further discussion. The Believers will quickly back up miracle after miracle, and at the same time turn a blind eye to the many suspicious behaviors of those with the power to obfuscate the truth. Yet there is no outcry, because the Believers know what happened, the news agencies and Gov't reports told them so.

So call us Truth Seekers kooks, idiots, asshats, whatever. But realize that it is the Believers who dishonor those killed on 9-11 by letting stand the lies and cover-ups contained in the Official Story.
monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
Tami, NIST has an extensive report on WTC 7. They studied it much deeper then the 9/11 commission could possibly have done.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 3, 2011 - 05:52pm PT
But it was hit by a collapsing 100+ story highrise.

It's embarrassing to know so much.
-- monolith

Yes, the NIST report was so well done, that even you contradict it, mono.




Thank you for stepping up and bolstering my POV.
monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 05:54pm PT
Really, K-Man, wtc7 was not hit by a skyscraper?

I didn't know NIST said it was not hit.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 3, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
Sure it was hit mono, but the NIST report said that the hit had nothing to do with the building's collapse. So you saying that the damage resulting from the hit was part of the reason why the building fell is contrary to the Official Story.

Bingo, +1 for our team.
monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
How do you think it caught on fire K-Man?

Burning debris from a collapsing burning skyscraper.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 3, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
Look dude, Warbler said the building was not hit by a plane.

You countered that instead it was hit by part of a falling building.

Why did you say that? From what I see, it was to counter the fact that WTC 7 was not hit by a plane.

Oh forget it, if you deny this exchange, why should I bother ever listening to what you have to say? DENY DENY DENY. Sorry pal, not a good argument.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 3, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
So steadfast is their need to believe the story told to us by the media and the Gov't that they don't see the hypocrisy in citing contradictions to the Official Story in an attempt to prove it correct.


Now they are using Wikipedia to show the Story is correct and true.


Why not just use the Official Story and stop with the contradictions to that story?

Because you know the Official Story cannot hold water.
monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
Warbler was implying nothing happened to WTC 7. Sorry I wasn't specific enough. All you had to do was ask K-Man.

All the wtc buildings would have stood without fire damage. I thought that was obvious.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 3, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
Warbler was implying nothing happened to WTC 7.


You gotta be kidding me, right?
monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
Yep, he said it wasn't hit by an airplane.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 3, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
Look folks, I took the time to think about and reason through what I wrote.

Perhaps you should do the same, because what's you're coming up with is crackpot.




EDIT:

Yes Ron, I watched it for days. The most unbelievable things were happening.
A sad day, any way you look at it.
monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
And I said the steel only portion of the Madrid building collapsed to the firewall floor due to fire alone.

Do ya think I don't know that the NIST report said WTC 7 came down by fire.

It stood for 7 hours boys. Didn't ya know that?
Jaytee

Trad climber
U.K.
Sep 3, 2011 - 06:25pm PT

Those with first hand accounts which contradict K-man are totally ignored... anything to say to jbaker yet K-man? Like maybe an apology?

Still haven't seen those first hand accounts of the missile yet by the way.
monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 06:27pm PT
Read the NIST report. You will find the fires were more extensive and involved critical sections of the building.

Not all skyscrapers have the same architecture.

The Madrid building had a concrete core and a few firewall/strength floors which helped hold up the steel only portion. No wonder it burned so long. The WTC's did not.

And don't forget, the Madrid building fire pics are at night, while WTC 7 pics are during the day.

Now back to work for me.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 3, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
Can't beleive I am wasting my time with this.

But here we go.......

Warning this sh#t is gonna get graphic.

You are all climbers, some of you have worked on aircraft body recovery efforts.

Idiocy is not only annoying it is insulting to those who lost their lives.



Engine Rotor

This video fits in well for more information on Jet engine rotors
[url]http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pentagon+911&view=detail&mid=CF190B2B64F60F0F5051CF190B2B64F60F0F5051&first=0&FORM=LKVR26[/url]


BEWARE!!!!!!!!!!!! (considered making this appear on thread but that would be incredibly rude)
http://911research.com/pentagon/evidence/photos/humanremains.html


And for good measure.

Buzz makes the perfect reply to stupid conspiracy theorists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUI36tPKDg4
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 3, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
Climbski... were the corpses identified as coming from people on the plane, or people in the building? Not trying to argue, just asking.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 3, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
Jaytee, please tell me where I ignore the eye witnesses who claim they say a plane hit the
Pentagon, and why I should apologize to jbaker. Also, please show me where I said a
missile hit the Pentagon, as you imply by saying "Still haven't seen those first hand
accounts of the missile yet by the way."


So until you can provide something to back up your claims against me,
shut up when you talk to me.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 3, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
The first corpse photo is very clearly within Flight 77s debris. Others who have worked aircraft crashes should be able to verify.

However if you look at the riveted aluminum peice to the left of the left arm in the first photo .. it should be self evident to any interested even slightly informed party.

The moussaoui exhibits (cross refference photo notations to prosecution phase 2 trial exhibits.)

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/

P200054 Is very worthwhile flash file download. (open by dragging to browser)
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 3, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
Seems like if you ask a question about any of it, then they think you believe all of the theories out there.

Still want the government to test for explosives, or at least offer an explanation concerning the report of thermite being found. If someone posted that already, then I apologize. Could you repost as I must have missed it.

The Nist report says specifically that the government did not test for explosives.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 3, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
The first corpse photo is very clearly within Flight 77s debris.

Location means nothing. The body could have been someone inside the building.

And personally, I lean towards it having been hit by a plane. Though I don't understand how the engines did not do more damage to the building.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 3, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
Your are correct.. guess it dropped from the ceiling.. whatever

The right engine was taken out by a structure on the ground prior to impact with the pentagon.

The hole for the left engine is clearly visible where it should be in MANY photos. It is moderately visible in the photo I provided above.

I will end this waste of my time in this thread in the same way I started it.

Against stupidity the very gods
Themselves contend in vain.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
climbski2 you're the most annoying idiot.

You see some pictures on the internet and then you know everything.

Lousy investigator, NO ... useless investigator and completely unscientific.

Fly a fuking airliner with the same flight pattern into a replica wall of the pentagon just like the guy who couldn't even fly a consumer plane.

What tool .......

monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
Warbler, show me another building with the same architecture that burned for 7 hours with little fire fighting.

Your first time in history crap is hilarious.
monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
Of course I can't Warbler. It is the first time in history a blazing skyscraper has slammed into another skyscraper, depositing burning material on multiple floors.

Can you think of any?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 3, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
Well I thought I was out of this..

Werner you are an exceptional rescuer and climber.

We are all Idiots at times.

My Idiocy comes from getting involved in this thread in the first place. And being rude enough to call a spade black.

I figured out what happened in real time the day it happened.

It's really not to hard to figure out.

Infact all this photo crap and willingness to pick at details ignores and obscures the big picture.

Here it is.

One day 2 jumbo jets were filmed from multiple angles hitting the trade towers. 2 other jets that day were confirmed missing. The Pentagon showed up with a Hole in the side of it (not exactly an everyday occurrence). A field in Pennsylvania has a smoking hole in it.

You figure it out.

Scientific??

Ok Werner you build me 20 pentagon sections I'll provide 20 Jets .. we will try to fly them into the same spots and afterward I'll get you some statistically significant data.

Sometimes science is simpler than that.

Self evident claims do not require exceptional evidence. ( a scientist would recognize the reference :) )

The only people requireing exceptional evidence are those making the claim of the cruise missile. They have not a shred of exceptional evidence. Nothing even close.

My respect for your long years of service is not a bit diminished by the great compliment you just gave me.

It is a compliment and an honor to be called an idiot for telling the truth.

However i Most certainly was an idiot for using the word idiot in describing the people who will not acknowledge the truth about the pentagon attack/tragedy.

I will endevour to be more polite in the future out of respect for the human condition.





monolith

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
Was a 96 foot hole not big enough for ya Warbler?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 3, 2011 - 08:16pm PT
On the same day.. three buildings collapsed. Two were hit by airliners. Both buildings were designed to withstand hits by airliners. No other building had collapsed after being hit by a plane, though some have been hit by planes. Admittedly smaller planes, but also much older buildings. That same day many firefighters were saying that they heard explosions in those buildings.

Did the government test for explosives?

After multiple studies, one lasting 3 years, they admit that they did not test for explosives.

I'm sorry that you find my questions troubling.

Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 3, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
Yeah, let's move on to JFK.
No way that dude Oswald made all those shots!

And you're too kind, climbski2. If Werner isn't an idiot he's doing a good job of impersonating one.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 3, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
GWB isn't the issue. He was just a front man for a bunch of criminals.

Still doesn't mean anything happened more then just a bunch of bumbling, just that GWB isn't the issue. Cheney is plenty smart enough to pull the whole thing off behind George's back.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 3, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
lol Cheney is a prime source of Bush's incompetency.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 3, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
Yep there was a mastermind.. A truly brilliant individual. He strategized and put into motion a plan that cripled the greatest Nation on earth. in ways far transcending the damge to NY and the death of a few thousand .

He got us to give away our freedoms and waste 100Ks of human lives and over a Trillion $s ..A guy very familiar with the Bush cabal.. a man who knew what buttons to push..

He lured us into doing more damage to ourselves than he could ever do with a small organization

Brilliant!!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 4, 2011 - 12:05am PT
judgment is different then smart. A whole lot of evil people are plenty smart, but are batshit crazy when it comes to judgment.

Intelligent, but deluded and corrupted by power, is my opinion of Cheney.

rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 4, 2011 - 12:51am PT
haven't read most of the above - but as to you that make jokes out of claims of conspiracy - listen to what JFK had to say about secret cabals and conspiracies (that is before he too was killed)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhZk8ronces
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 4, 2011 - 01:42am PT
Skipt: Dick Cheney is a great American and we are very lucky to have had him as Vice President.

Cheney was and is a traitor against the United States of America. That we have failed to try him and the others will come back to haunt us again.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2011 - 01:54am PT
And the idea that the very tops of the buildings could have crushed them all of the way to their bases is utterly unscientific, given that no experiment has been able to replicate the alleged phenomonon of top-down total progressive collapse.

Ya all been owned.

Stupid to the hilt.

America the science worshipers and never doing the experiment.

Hypocrites to the max.

Blah blah blah.

Just dazzle em with equations and a parade of experts and the drooling masses lap it up ......
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 09:35am PT
Really Werner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NZtBL1PjMk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL5bkxS2cFU

Now who's been owned Werner?


Really Jolly, Cheney shot Silverstein?

Aren't you the least bit embarrassed by your gullibility?
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 09:48am PT
I did it for him. He still doesn't understand that negative acceleration means the mass is slowing down.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 4, 2011 - 10:12am PT
The people clinging to the exceptional claims of complicated government conspiracies now want those of us making self evident claims to produce exceptional evidence supporting OUR hypthesis?

regardless not only that but they then make false and ubsubstantiated statements..

Words like never, no-one, always, easily identify these statements.

no one has reproduced, no-one has done any experiments..

Statements like this are generally a red-flag to identify false statements or severely flawed reasoning.

SO here is a nice study done by some leaders in the field of structure and fire analysis. University of Edinburgh

http://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/1842/1562/1/Usmani%20SantanderConferencePaper.pdf

A
large number of finite element models were constructed, beginning with small 2D models
[2,3] and more recently some very large 3D models [4] (some of over a million degrees of
freedom). Very interestingly the results obtained in the earlier 2D analyses have shown a
great deal of consistency with the results from the larger 3D analyses. This is very
encouraging as it suggests that it may be possible to understand tall building collapses using
relatively simple models (if the key aspects of the structure and fire can be included).
All WTC analyses were carried out using models structurally consistent with the structure of
the towers (using tubular columns and truss members for the floor system support).

This
raised the question that whether the collapse scenarios and mechanisms discovered so far are
somehow unique to the WTC tower frames. A recent paper [5] extended the previous work by
investigating more "generic" tall building frames made of standard universal beam and
column sections to determine whether the same collapse mechanisms are obtained. This
indeed turned out to be the case which again presents a great opportunity for developing
general rules, guidelines and design methods for ensuring the robustness and stability of tall
buildings in fire.

Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 4, 2011 - 10:44am PT
This thread is mostly proving the influence of fear mongering .
Get involved in your government and you will fear it less.

If it walks like a duck, gang, it might just actually be a duck.

Your nefarious Big Brother exists mostly in your minds.
They ain't that smart, folks.
Now go climbing and shut up.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2011 - 11:06am PT
Big scientist can't do the experiment.

Instead makes a virtual experiment.

Mental speculation on a computer with data inserted to to dove-tale with the mental speculation.

Then tries to dazzles us with bullsh'it.

Even they lap it up.

No real world experiment ever made.

All tools parading as experts .......
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 4, 2011 - 11:13am PT
According to Monolith's video links--the ONLY way that buildings fall down upon themselves is when they are in demolition phase with pre-planted charges and cuts...




How is Werner wrong on this again?


Really Mono; he asked to see it happen as "they" said it did, pancake due to weight collapse from upper floors ALONE.
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 11:15am PT
No charges planted Mojede. Did ya hear any explosions?

That's the whole point. They use hydraulics or cables to pull those floors slightly off center to initiate the collapse.

Only the floors at which the collapse is initiated are weakened, just like what the aircraft did to the collapse point floors in the WTC towers. They eventually gave way after the fires continued the deformation process.

The rest of the building is not weakened, one of the advantages of this method. They will remove glass, drywall, etc.

Of course, I understand that Truthers will not get it, due to their inability to transfer concepts. They need an exact duplication and even then they will complain.

And Mojede, Werner claimed no top-down total progressive collapse example exists. Those videos show otherwise.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 4, 2011 - 11:35am PT
I don't claim shite, Mono--just that the buildings in your videos were planned demolitions (I said charges, but was wrong there...); meaning that they were engineered from the ground to fall down.




edit: I'm SURE that Mono's vid buildings were built with main central columns like the WTC towers, right, Mono?



monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 11:40am PT
Nope, not from the ground. Only at the collapse point.

And Mojode, didn't you know that much of the core of the WTC's stood for a while after the floors collapsed? See RokJox's photos.

Yep, Truthers need exact duplication, yet can't provide exact duplication for their theories.

Dang, I need to get some work done. See ya tomorrow.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
Werner claimed no top-down total progressive collapse example exist

Never ever claimed such bullsh'it.

See how your mind is fooling.

That quote:

And the idea that the very tops of the buildings could have crushed them all of the way to their bases is utterly unscientific, given that no experiment has been able to replicate the alleged phenomonon of top-down total progressive collapse.

Came from some other guy and that's why it's in quote.

What a tool .....
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
And you love JOKES !!!!!!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 4, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
Man, you Believers are ALL OVER THE PLACE now. Focus folks, focus.

Riley, you especially have seemed to have gone nuts. You say this:

Folks keep asking the same questions over and over instead of objectively looking at rhe evidence.


First, the same questions I ask are "Why do they not release the tapes showing what hit the Pentagon?" and "Why do they not test for explosives?"

Why was Mineta's testimony ingored?

I admire Werner wanting to do the experiment of flying the plane into a building. But why do the expensive experiment when the real live thing has already been done, and there are tapes of the event. It is highly suspicious, to me, when they don't release the tapes.

Next, you say "instead of objectively looking at the evidence." Yet a paragraph later you say: "there are literally millions of professional engineers..." My friend, that is not objectively looking at the evidence. That is letting those who have come down on one side of this debate sway your opinion. Think about it.

I objectively look at the evidence of 7 WTC and say: no way small fires can make a building come down uniformly like that. That is my belief from my objective observations. I objectively look at the evidence that NIST provides, and I say BullShit! The Official Story is CRAP!

monolith, your two videos prove nothing. The first one, who knows squat about how those twin buildings came down. All we see is them collapsing, there is no visual explanation for the method used in their demolition. The second, you see a bulldozer. But LO! Stop the video at 31 seconds and you will see a great example of why the Truthers don't believe the Official Story. The building did not collapse in its entirety. Very obvious that this bolsters the objective idea that fires alone could not have brought 7 WTC down.

Riley, again who is claiming that Bush and Cheney engineered the attacks? I saw Dingus try to pull that trick, and now you too. And then you go into this big spiel about how incompetent was GWB. In my critical thinking class, we learned to call this type of argument a straw-man, you set up fallacious argument that you can easily knock down.

Riley, you say "You really think they had time to wire a building that was on fire and unstable?" But look at who made that statement. It was coz, a staunch Believer, who also said:

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see WTC7 was taken down with explosives.

Like I said, try to find the footage of the day, and you will see all kinds of drama about it being pulled for safety.



And lastly, monolith puts this out for us: No charges planted Mojede. Did ya hear any explosions?

Well, actually on several tapes, yes. I did hear explosions. And MANY eye witnesses reported multiple explosions, in ALL THREE WTC BUILDINGS.

However, you DENY that these explosions occurred, proving that you do not take an "objective" look at the evidence.


So, in a couple of dozen posts, The Believers are scrambling around like ants trying to nail anything down to help them along with their strong beliefs. How's that working?
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 02:25pm PT
HaHa Werner, but you quoted it, silly boy. It's what you believe too. Dang I got to stop peeking here.

Such silly semantic games you play, Werner.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
No silly boy monolith. It's what you want to believe.

Do the experiment with a real steel building with jet A fuel just like the trade center.

But you never did.

Just some bullsh'it demolition unlike the trade center building and make comparisons.

Totally unscientific.

But that's how you present your unscientific science as bonafide science.

You're going down in flames and soon nothing is left of you but ashes ......

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 4, 2011 - 03:03pm PT
Do the experiment with a real steel building with jet A fuel just like the trade center.
Here

This is the same idea Klimmer had to investigate the alien spaceship on the moon. He wanted to spend NASA tax payer money on investigating the crashed space craft.

Its a truly moronic idea to spend 100s of millions, if not billions, to reconstruct the towers to bring them down again. Or to waist money looking for spaceships.

Totally unscientific

I always thought you were averse to scientific thought? Now you want it on your side?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
Port another mental speculator with foolish ideas in his head.

Now on to the Hutchison effect.

Oh boy they're gonna love it .....



monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
FLASHBACK: The Windsor Building in Madrid burned for nearly two days on almost all its floors. Its structural core was weaker than that of the WTC towers and yet it didn't collapse.

What a lie, Rox.

The Madrid building had a concrete reinforced steel core, which protected the steel from the fire, plus several firewall/strength floors. And the steel only portion still collapsed, despite massive firefighting efforts.

Guess what Rox? The new WTC's will have a concrete reinforced steel core.
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 05:04pm PT
No Rox, you got sucked into Christopher Browns delusions.

That page was devoted to Christopher trying to convince the world that the WTC's had a concrete core, because thats where the demolition charges were hidden since construction.

It's so funny you got conned by him.
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
Haha, they did not have concrete cores.

Not everything you read on the net is true Rox, even the BBC gets it wrong sometimes.

Why do you think there is all this talk about the insulation for the steel core, Rox?

Concrete was used only for the floors above the first few floors.

The Concrete Core Myth

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
Yep, that's all the core was. Steel box columns. I gotta work too.
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 06:03pm PT
All three WTC's were steel only core.

The concretecore.741.com is a Christopher Brown page.

Yep Rox, there's lots of crap on the net.
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
Those are the BBC graphics put up quickly after 911. They are wrong regarding the concrete core.

And your quote is Christopher Brown claiming that a documentary says the core was concrete, but no ones ever been able to find it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 4, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
The only concrete in the WTC was the lightweight concrete decking in the floors and the foundation.

The core was conventional steel box girder construction with a special dry wall enclosure to contain the air pressure differential from the high speed elevators. It doubled as fireproofing and was blown off by the impact of the aircraft.

Covered to death years ago.

Just one example from 02.

http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/official/enr_silverstein1.html


But, the true believers will hold this up as one more piece of evidence for a Zionist plot just on the basis of the commissioning parties sir name.

you guys are certifiable.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 4, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
So TGT, what about the explosions? Got a nifty explanation for those?


Let me guess, you deny they happened.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
TGT -- " ... the true believers, "

More disinfo by warped views of the world.

Whether one takes to the views of the 911 commission, FEMA, or NIST reports or independent of them, the end aim is the truth.

Thus they all fall under the truther label.

You're all wacked ......
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 08:38pm PT
K-Man, link us to some video/audio of these explosions.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 4, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
Glad this Klimmer dude wasn't around when Charlie Manson was looking for recruits to start a race war that would leave him in power.
Crazy guy sounds like he'd believe anything.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2011 - 09:44pm PT
So do you Betelnut.

You believe anything your mind tells you while it runs amok and you need to project it onto klimmer.

You have no control over your run away mind ......
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
already proven beyond a doubt


You're dreaming again ......
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 4, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
mono, the sounds of the explosions are in the 9-11 videos/movies that show live action of the first responders. I'm certain you can find them yourself if you are interested.

There are already many videos in this thread of the first responders saying they witnessed explosions in the lobbies and basements of the buildings. What good is one more video going to do--The Believers have already denied everything that goes against their strong beliefs, and the videos with the explosions would be just one more thing they they would find a way to deny.

Riley says to take an objective look at what happened. Objectivity does not include ignoring the parts of the story that you don't want to hear or believe.

Dr. F., ever looked up the models that they used to "prove" how the planes caused the Towers to collapse the way they did? It's pretty interesting how they rigged that one.

And if you believe that office fires brought down 7 WTC, then you might as well believe the whole Official Story, miracles and all.
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 11:01pm PT
Really, K-Man, you won't give us a link?

A lot of noise was heard, I just want to know which ones you guys claim are explosives going off.

Don't you want to help us find the truth?
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Sep 4, 2011 - 11:31pm PT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 4, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
Hey monolith, are you telling me you're too dense to find the links yourself, even with all the help I've already given you? What, you can't look up the films on 9-11? A simple Google search would do it, even a child could show you.

But I'll make a deal, I'll find the link for you, but first you have to explain to me why you don't believe all the links of the first responders talking about multiple explosions. (And BTW, I am not going to repost those links, if you claim you can't find them.)

And I don't buy the "elevators falling" hype. I'd like to see you tell that to the fire fighter with the bloody nose, face to face. I could just see it: "Hey buddy, that wasn't an explosion you saw first hand, it was an elevator falling."


Hahahahaha, that would be great. He lost buddies to those explosions, and you telling that guy that it was just an elevator, I'd love to see it.
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 11:41pm PT
I can't find any that sound like explosions that are intent on bringing buildings down.

Since you are an expert, I thought you could help me out.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 4, 2011 - 11:51pm PT
mono, It's going to be tough helping you out if you can't comprehend what you read. Please reread my last post.
monolith

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
I guess we are not going to get any more info on these explosions.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 4, 2011 - 11:56pm PT
I guess we're not going to get a more clear case of somebody refusing to believe the facts presented to them.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 12:04am PT
It would be nice to see(hear) the evidence of the facts.

It was one of the most recorded events in history. Why won't you provide us with the audio for these explosions?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 12:25am PT
mono, why don't you answer my question? It should be a softball.

First hand reports from the eye witnesses. It's not my fault if that evidence is not good enough for you.

Still, I showed you were you could find the sound recordings of the explosions (hint: watch Loose Change). I can't help it if you're too lazy to do a little research on your own.

And please stop patronizing me. It belittles you.

Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 5, 2011 - 12:38am PT
Werner, to be honest I don't know what the hell you're even talking about.

Why don't you quit talking in code and just come out with it, man.

What do you believe?
What do you think happened?

Try speaking in plain English instead of hiding behind hyperbole.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 11:21am PT
Riley, yes, sh#t did go down. My problem is that I'd like there to be a real investigation to find out exactly what sh#t did go down.

I see that you, like many, have looked at a boat-load of material. At a certain point, you say "Yep, I'm satisfied," and move on. Or not.

You tend to trivialize the Truthers, saying "2 people did test and found chemical thermite traces," when in fact, there was a group of scientists who did the testing. There were more than two firefighters who heard explosions. Many folks heard them, many, many accounts. You can find them in many films, videos, and web sites.

You boldly state "They didn't test for explosives because there were no.explosives," yet how can you possibly know this? And that's a serious question I ask of you.

Why test for explosives? Well, of course, my man, to see if there's any residue of them. How telling that they refused to test for explosives when that is by far the easiest way to explain how those towers fell. What types? The types that would be used to bring down a building, of course.

Here's an interesting video that debunks the "paint" theory. The chemist uses NIST's own findings to show that the paint theory is poppycock.

Nano-Thermite explosions in dust at WTC 7

Watch this closely, it is very reputable, and you will find out things that overrule your preconceived ideas about this.

I don't know what happened, of course. But, if all the suspicious activities leading up to 9-11, and the sh#t that went down that day and after, turn out to be part of a conspiracy, then think about it--the people that pulled it off have huge resources to blur any "facts" that are reported.

There are still many unanswered questions, things that Believers gloss over because they really don't have any explanation for them. Many people are satisfied, for a couple of reasons. First, they don't want to think about it anymore and, second, they don't want to think about what it would mean if the fishy things that did occur were planned. Or, they flat out don't believe that anything was fishy--they bought the Official Story from the word Go because their Gov't would never lie to them.

But Lo!, many of the "facts" that they hold in their hands have been thoroughly debunked by engineers and scientists.

Think hard about it: small office fires for 7 WTC. Do you really believe that??

Well I guess you have to, because to think otherwise would splinter the one-way mirror that your are looking through. The mirror that refuses to accept anything that goes against what you know to be "true."

Peace, out.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2011 - 11:29am PT
NIST, FEMA, and 911 commission reports are all theories and hypothesis.

The are all incomplete full of distortions and tons of omissions.

Completely unscientific.

Yet you all worship the scientific method and lap up this mirage of bullsh'it .......
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 11:35am PT
"Loose Change" which version? The one that said a B52 crashed into the Empire State Building?

roflmao
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 11:52am PT
Ron, in this thread, every time somebody comes up with something that goes against the "credible" 9-11 Commission, the Believers brush it off by character assassination.

Every time.

The fire fighters--the news men--international scientists.


Yet you, for some silly reason, think the 9-11 Commission is credible, when it has be shown plain-as-day that they were as corrupt as you can imagine.


Over to you, Jenny.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
Ron, here's the second part of the interview, very impressive, even for a scientist from Copenhagen:

Nano-Thermite explosions in dust at WTC 7 (part 2)

I found it very interesting about the fires at the WTC. Pay attention to the video from the 3:45 mark to the 4:45 mark. These are facts that the Believers don't want to hear.

Debunk that.

Oh, that's right, you can't. That's why you never hear about it.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 5, 2011 - 12:15pm PT
I don't think you Truther's should be locked up, but a few months of exile to Crazynutistan might be in order.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 12:24pm PT
Oh, about that NIST report:

WTC 7 NIST Model vs. Reality

If you are a Believer, don't look at this video because you will need to turn up your DENIAL control.


But Lo! Your suspension-of-disbelief is already pegged at 100!
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
The model includes the internal events leading to the collapse of the east penthouse. The 'reality' view shows the exterior only and you can still see some deformation in that area. Of course they won't look the same.

And if you run a simulation long enough in a chaotic event, you are bound to diverge at some point. It's hilarious that Truthers expect the simulation to behave exactly as reality thru it's entirety.

Hehe, read the first comment of the video page. You guys sure do grasp at straws.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
15,000 scientists, including 52 Nobel Laureates and 63 recipients of the National Medal of Science all have called the NIST, 911 commission, and FEMA reports a total scientific fraud.

The omission of evidence by NIST is so massive that it falls under "Scientific Fraud".
richross

Trad climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 5, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
Your ability to believe such a massive conspiracy is possible is frightening.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
My ability to see that that you're an idiot is not so frightening since it's been obvious from the beginning ......
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
Watch this only if you still have room on your denial meter:

The Day The Illuminati Pushed Their Luck To Far..


I like the point where he says that if there is pulverized concrete present that you should not even bother looking at fire as a cause for the disaster. (By the way, that's from the National Standards Guide for investigating fires.)

Go back and look at the beginning of the failure of the WTC Towers. Do happen to see any pulverized concrete?

And then pay special attention to the 6:10 mark to the 7:10 mark, if you want to hear about eye witness evidence of explosions. Over a hundred fire fighters reported them.

Go ahead, tell me again, Riley, why they did not test for explosives.

Oh yeah, you already told me. Because *you* know there were none.


Hahahahahahaha.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
You know the floors were thin concrete right?

What do you think happens to the concrete when debris crashes into it and it collapses?

Do ya really think the NWO put bombs in the floors?

Oops, sorry, not the NWO. I see you believe in the Illuminatti. Or is that the same?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
monolith, why do you believe the National Standards for investigating fires was thoroughly ignored by NIST.

Enough already.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
Where can I found the detailed technical analysis with simulations etc that exactly corresponds to what happened on 9/11? I am looking for the correct analysis that include explosives, hologram planes, aliens, missiles or whatever you guys believe in.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
raymond, are you ill?

We are asking for that analysis. Thanks for letting me point that out again.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
Why don't you are some other of the many experts do that analysis? Didn't Werner say something like 15000 scientist and 50 nobel price winners? Why do they just complain instead of doing the work themselves?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
Cripes!!!

At least Monolith has some brain.

Raymond you have no brain .....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 02:15pm PT
raymond, it's clear you did not view the two links I posted this morning.

Oh monolith, the beginning of this link has an explosion on tape.

And then MANY reports of large explosions.

It even shows where the fire fighters were cleared because they feared more explosions.

On NIST claiming that there were no reports of explosions?
Are you serious?



Again, don't watch this if you don't have more room for denial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n-nT-luFIw&feature=related
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
So I got insulted by Werner...

Ok I get it, a real truther should just complain and pick on things he is clueless about.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 02:18pm PT

raymond, it's clear you did not view the two links I posted this morning.

So those links include a detailed analysis that with the help of explosive, missiles, arks etc show what happened on 9/11?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
raymond, you are an idiot!

Say, you pony up the money, and I'll find somebody to do the analysis.
Why don't we start by analyzing the debris for explosives (like has already been done).
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
Why did the explosives went of every 15 and 20 minutes? Isn't that a very strange way to pull a building with the help of explosives?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
Even more insults.

edit: cool post number 1000!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
I am looking for the correct analysis that include explosives, hologram planes, aliens, missiles or whatever you guys believe in.

From your first post raymond. Convince me you're not the one who started with the insults.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
Can you show me the insult in that sentence? The only thing I did was being including in regard to truthers. You are free to prove that no aliens or holograms is needed to explain what happened on 9/11 and Klimmer is free to include as many arks and aliens in his explanation.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
Clearly we are dealing with a person of sub-standard intelligence here. Please, don't just take pity on this fellow raymond, try to figure out a way to help him.



More fun:


The only thing I did was being including in regard to truthers.

-- raymond
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 02:48pm PT
Just insults. I guess I need to come to the conclusion that K-man is a genius after his very good posts.

So the truthers obviously have no reason to came up with any reasonable explanations of what happened 9/11 but they only need to "spot errors" and complain about other peoples explanations.

So how do explosions every 15-20 minutes say anything meaningful about explosives in the buildings?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
Raymond -- "Why don't you are some other of the many experts do that analysis?"

This sentience: >> Why don't you are some

Please try and proof read before you hit the "Post this reply"

Next many experts on both side of the fence are doing that.

How would any disagreement even occur if there was only one side doing any analysis?

This is why I said you have no brain.

Now go use your brain .....
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 03:09pm PT

This sentience: >> Why don't you are some

Please try and proof read before you hit the "Post this reply"
Sorry.


Next many experts on both side of the fence are doing that.
And you still can't show any detailed analysis from your side?


How would any disagreement even occur if there was only one side doing any analysis?

You are hilarious. You believe that analysis* is necessary from both sides for a disagreement to occur?

* analysis instead of just talking bullshit about things they are clueless about.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
Again you have no brain.

Not only no brain but stupid too ......
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
More insults.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
You're an insult to all sides.

You even unknowingly insult yourself .....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
Gentlemen, stay focused.

Stop the personal insults, it's childish.

Once again . . .


What do we know:


Absolute fore knowledge that an attack was going to be done and on the WTC towers. We knew they were going to use aircraft to do so.


From before . . .


They "TPTB" knew what was going to happen and they used it to their advantage to accomplish what they wanted: LIHOP

Also they "TPTB" knew what they had to do to make it happen: MIHOP


**Eric Rockefeller revealed to Aaron Russo what the NWO wants and that something big was going to happen to be the pretext to go war and invade Afghanistan and Iraq before 9-11-2001.


**Lt. Mike Vreeland from the Pentagon revealed while jailed in Canada that 9-11-2001 would occur and what the events would be. He wrote this down and sealed it in an envelope and gave it to the Canadian authorities. They opened it after 9-11-2001 occurred. This has been verified in Canadian court.


**Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer reveals that US intelligence knew very specifically that the WTC towers would be attacked by aircraft before 9-11-2001 and she shares all the specific details and more. She was held in prison for 5 years by our US government on a Texas military base in attempts to silence her.



All of this verifies LIHOP and MIHOP.




Eric Rockefeller Reveals 9/11 FRAUD to Aaron Russo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA&feature=related



A White Knight Talking Backwards
SPY CASE IN CANADIAN COURTS SUGGESTS US NAVAL OFFICER HAD FOREKNOWLEDGE OF 9-11
by Michael C. Ruppert, Author of Crossing The Rubicon
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_25_02_revised_012802_vreeland.html
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_28_02_vreeland.jpg



Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1OW7b-oug

Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq [Paperback]
Susan Lindauer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Prejudice-Terrifying-Story-Patriot/dp/1453642757



Extreme Prejudice / Clear Evidence Of 9/11 Cover Up
By Allen L Roland (about the author)
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Extreme-Prejudice--Clear-by-Allen-L-Roland-110105-991.html


http://extremeprejudiceusa.wordpress.com/


"Spies Knew"




Cont. on what we know:


Richard Clarke admits that the CIA purposefully withheld information from other intelligence agencies concerning all involved in the 9-11-2001 plot involving "terrorists." They had a great amount of information/intelligence that they purposefully did not share with other agencies.


Considerable means, motive, and opportunity evidence exists that 9-11-2001 was planned and used as a pretext for endless war on "Terror," war-profiteering, and to radically weaken or eradicate our Constitution and our Civil Rights. Remember, PNAC needed "A New Pearl Harbor" to do and to achieve what they have been able to do since 9-11-2001.


If you can't believe that our government can do this, look at the history of false-flags that the US government has carried out. Read and know the details of "Operation Northwoods" to know this truth. In that plan they discussed in detail using false-flag hijackings, using remote aircraft, and killing of our own citizens/soldiers/people, and much more immoral and heinous crimes to take the US into war against Cuba.


Many federal agencies practiced emergency procedures and scenarios for just such a large scale terrorist attack such as 9-11.


Even the Pentagon practiced wargames with aircraft attacking the Pentagon prior to 9-11-2001.


We have Condi et al. saying "we couldn't imagine they would use aircraft as missiles." That is 100% USDA Bull Dung.


We also know that there where many wargames on 9-11-2001, 15+ or more.


Evidence that NORAD was given a stand down order after the attacks on 9-11-2001 began.


Many physical evidences show that the laws of Physics were suspended on 9-11-2001 if the OCT is held-up as true as told in the 9-11 Commission Report, for all 3 WTC towers to fall as they did due only to the 2 aircrafts slamming into them.


An incredible amount of physical evidence and eye-witness reports are ignored concerning demolition of all 3 WTC towers.


The absolute physical evidence of nano-superthermite found in the dust of all 3 WTC towers.


The physical evidence fits the fact that something other than a 757 slams into the Pentagon. The evidence that explosives were used is considerable.




The means, motive, and opportunity, and the physical evidence for LIHOP and MIHOP is fairly overwhelming. The OCT has been invalidated time and time again.

A new thorough and complete investigation of 9-11-2001 by an open and honest international community or commission must be done.

Re-investigate 9-11 now.






Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
With the above and these links its pretty well organized and makes sense. The Pentagon is easily shown to be a black-op false-flag.

VP Dick is absolutely involved. But, then so are all the other Neocons. They wanted their "New Pearl Harbor" and got it.

Maybe that's why he wrote his new book and he is turning on everyone, because he knows the evidence pretty much points to him.


Dick Cheney, The Ultimate American Terrorist
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1851138


"This is a book written out of fear — fear that one day someone will 'Pinochet' Dick Cheney.”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1844011







Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney Ordered Stand Down on 9/11
Former Transportation Secretary Disputes 9/11 Commission Report Timetable for Dick Cheney and Reveals Lynn Cheney Was Also in PEOC Bunker Before Attack
Aaron Dykes / JonesReport | June 26, 2007
http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/260607_mineta.html

Rare Pentagon 9-11 Surveillance Camera Video of Impact
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paWiZ2Y8fRg&feature=related

"NO PLANE HIT THE PENTAGON" only once aired report:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFz7gLz7CVk&feature=related

Former 9/11 Commissioner admits missile hit the Pentagon (Ooopsie. Freudian slip.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUmr9dFbf2c&feature=related

Doomsday Plane - the Mystery 9/11 Plane (This massive jet needs to be explained by our US government, the DoD, and it never has been. It was not even mentioned in the 9-11 Commission Report)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMK5bmdAEHc&feature=related

Undeniable Proof a Plane did NOT Hit the Pentagon on 9/11 ~ 1/8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0R8b3MuFxk&feature=related
Undeniable Proof a Plane did NOT Hit the Pentagon on 9/11 ~ 2/8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yinRBkGX0Bc&feature=related
Undeniable Proof a Plane did NOT Hit the Pentagon on 9/11 ~ 3/8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5mT8Jbcd-A&feature=related
Undeniable Proof a Plane did NOT Hit the Pentagon on 9/11 ~ 4/8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K9SfCwWzFI&feature=related
Undeniable Proof a Plane did NOT Hit the Pentagon on 9/11 ~ 5/8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SujyK7UZmpM&feature=related
Undeniable Proof a Plane did NOT Hit the Pentagon on 9/11 ~ 6/8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZlUZ1pvOn8&feature=related
Undeniable Proof a Plane did NOT Hit the Pentagon on 9/11 ~ 7/8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2Shn7b90pY&feature=related
Undeniable Proof a Plane did NOT Hit the Pentagon on 9/11 ~ 8/8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyGxJOHaSAo&feature=related

raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 04:07pm PT
Is youtube the new nature?
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
Jolly thinks we'll go for thermite in the exterior columns, for all to see burning away. Dang the NWO is dumb.

No NWO risk manager would do something like that when he had already implicated Islamic Jihadists flying suicide missions. The buildings didn't need to collapse, silly boys.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
What did the truthers do before youtube existed?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
You have to ask the question why was the normal NORAD procedures changed a few months before 9-11-01?

"The document revoked the default standing orders to shoot down errant or hijacked aircraft and instructed them instead to stand down until they were given orders by the President, Vice President or Secretary of Defense."




http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/260607_mineta.html


Norman Mineta made it clear to reporters-- who verified his quotes in written text alongside him-- that Mineta was indeed talking about a stand down order not to shoot down hijacked aircraft headed for the Pentagon.

After no shoot down took place, it became clear that Cheney intended to keep NORAD fighter jets from responding-- evidence that Cheney is guilty of treason, not negligence for allowing the Pentagon to be hit.


(Click each document for a larger image)

http://www.jonesreport.com/images/260607_docu_1.jpg

http://www.jonesreport.com/images/260607_docu3-a.jpg

http://www.jonesreport.com/images/260607_docu2.jpg


The idea that "the order still stands" matches up with a change in NORAD and Pentagon orders-- issued on June 1, 2001, only months before 9/11. The document revoked the default standing orders to shoot down errant or hijacked aircraft and instructed them instead to stand down until they were given orders by the President, Vice President or Secretary of Defense.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
Why the slam on youtube?

Everyone uses it as a free place to post videos.

Even the government at times uses youtube to post videos.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
No Warbler, Truthers gave themselves that label a long time ago. Seriously, they called themselves Truthers. Some used lower case, some used upper case. I'm happy to use the word they use to describe themselves.

Don't ya wanna know the Truth?

And as Raymond points out below, they still use it. Klimmer uses it as well.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 04:48pm PT

Why the slam on youtube?

Everyone uses it as a free place to post videos.

Even the government at times uses youtube to post videos.

Because all you guys do is posting youtube videos and I think videos is a pretty bad way to get across actual information. Opps I see my own mistake now. Keep posting the videos.

Anyway, not many people is going to look through thousand of hours of videos when they want to find information. Articles and books works much better if it is actually about arguing for something.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 04:50pm PT

Classic, in a Rovian manner, how the skeptics of the official version are dubbed "Truthers", as if seeking truth is something to be ridiculed.

I have used it because I believe for example k-man has used it himself in this thread.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
Ron,

That has been answered ages ago.

The DNA used to identify the passengers we are told were collected on-site at the Pentagon. They wouldn't lie to us now would they? But, the IDing was actually at Dover, hundreds of miles away. Pretty easy to provide DNA for passengers you say were on the aircraft and that you say are now dead and missing. Especially if that is what you wanted to do (false-flag), and was planned over a long period of time.

Any aircraft wreckage at the Pentagon has not been directly tied to AA Flight 77. NTSB has very clear guidelines on aircraft accident investigations. The parts have to be directly tied to the actual craft said to have gone down and crashed. That is done with serial numbers etc. and more. This wasn't done. Why not lay out all the parts found and reassemble as far as possible the craft in a massive hanger, like they should have done?



Read "Operation Northwoods." They know how to do massive false-flags and that was back in 1962. Think they are even better at it now? Absolutely.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
No, there was outright lying and coverup, Ron.

It's right there in the official 911 commission report itself ...
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
Or the similarities in the column configurations? How di they get thos nice 45 degree cuts?

Those were made in the cleanup, Jolly.

Deja Vue, it feels like 2006 all over again.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
Post the pics Jolly, you will see that they mostly stick straight up out of the rubble. There's even pics of them being cut. It's not a mystery.

Great to see you clinging to yet another classic Truther myth debunked long ago.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
They didn't use thermite. Oxy-fuel cutting torch.

This is like picking on the kids in the short bus. I'll get back to work now.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
You guys should put your money where your mouth is and leave the country. I just can't understand how you can support a country with your tax dollars if you actually believe the sh#t you're spewing. If I believed half the crazy sh#t you do, I'd leave in a heart beat.

Ironically, the three major conspiracy theorist here on Super Topo are ALL on the Government dime!!

Klimmer= School Teacher

Werner= National Park Service

Rok= Unemployment? Last I heard and that was awhile ago.

Why the slam on youtube?

Because its a forum for any moron to portray themselves as credible.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 5, 2011 - 05:39pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

OUCH!!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 5, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
You guys should put your money where your mouth is and leave the country.

They should pick up and leave simply because a few people are corrupt? What kind of sense is that? Cheney is out of office and wont be back. Why leave now? That makes no sense.

The notion that it had to take thousands of people is a false one. It didn't have to have. And really its the leadership that is the most at fault. They are mostly gone and can't come back. So the notion of leaving is silly.

Plus where would they go where there isn't any corruption? That place doesn't exist.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:03pm PT
The notion that it had to take thousands of people is a false one.

So, Cheney planted all the bombs, fired the missile into the pentagon, hired some dudes to willingly fly a plane into the buildings and then cover it all up with the help of W?

Now that's a multi-tasker.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
http://www.cracked.com/article_15740_was-911-inside-job.html

The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
Awesome article but that's coming from a guy who gets most of his news from The Daily Show.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
Now that's a multi-tasker.

he is.. isn't he.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
Experiment/TEST.

What happens when you add a high temperature 1000°C and above for a short period of time to a surface of a concrete with a specified compressive strength?

WHAT action occurs and WHY?

Easy, simple no education required, no academia requirements but observation and an answer to a problem and how one could correct it.

Equipment:
Cost: $15.00-$25.00 US Dollars

Torch Head


Gas


Canister: Choose one or experiment with [A] Propylene 1982°C [3600°F] colour of canister is blue Propane 1890°C [3450°F], colour of canister is yellow [C] Butane colour of canister is green, temperature 1760°C [3,200°F ].

If high temperature is required add oxygen to be used with fuel gas for higher temperature combustion.

Both or all can be bought at local hardware store.

For the experiment:

Take tip or torch head and add gas canister of choice.

Find a vertical/horizontal concrete surface: patio, garage, sidewalk, bridge, buildings.

Suggestions do at home since sidewalks, bridges or buildings might bring liability, fines or arrest if caught or reported of highly unusually activity.
**
First group: these to include stupid, ignorant, naïve, brainless, idiots, 15,000 scientists, 52 Nobel Laureates, doctors, lawyers, school teachers or anyone that does not have a clue about concrete. So no education required.

Second group: these to include stupid, ignorant, naïve, brainless, idiots, 15,000 scientists, 52 Nobel Laureates, doctors, lawyers, school teachers or anyone that does not have a clue about concrete. So no education required.

Assemble unit by adding torch head to selected gas canister from the above, since every climber or everyone on this site has used butane this will work perfect so cost is less just needs torch head., slowly turn gas on the torch head and use a source of ignition using match, lighter, spark, flame thrower, electric current or with the self starting spark arrestor provided with the unit.

First Group:

Take the lighted torch with the correct adjusted flame and aim it at the surface of the concrete. You can experiment but start at one-two inches from the surface and hold it for a couple seconds with your head above the concrete surface with the flame head pointing towards you or at a 90 degree angle, so you get a better look. Meaning looking towards the flame source and concrete surface in front of your face or have someone do this with you about a foot looking straight down where flame and surface will heat up.


Second Group:

*Use and wear safety equipment such as eye protection, head, and hand protection as well and wear heavy clothing prior to experiment. Recommend full face shield or rigid plastic sheet.

Take the lighted torch with the correct adjusted flame and aim it away from you pointing at the surface of the concrete. You can experiment but start at one-two inches from the surface and hold it for a couple seconds. The flame head should be pointed at the surface away from your face and head/body so does not absorb ingress energy but still happens, this is why the use of safety equipment.


*Note: make sure no one is in front or sides where the test is to be commenced. Area of the test: 20 feet radius or more with no children, animals, stupid, ignorant, naïve, brainless, idiots, , doctors, 15,000 scientists, 52 Nobel Laureates, lawyers, school teachers or anyone that does not have a clue about concrete.

Now tell me WHAT happened but better yet WHY?

No internet browsing for answers, and no concrete consultants or calling concrete companies for the answer.

Pictures would be good or video. Record it: Show and Tell

Disclaimer: The author does not assume, and hereby specifically disclaim, any liability to any person or entity with respect to any loss or damage alleged to have been caused by any error or omission contained herein and as not to be taken as fact or absolute.**
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
You guys should put your money where your mouth is and leave the country. I just can't understand how you can support a country with your tax dollars if you actually believe the sh#t you're spewing. If I believed half the crazy sh#t you do, I'd leave in a heart beat.

Ironically, the three major conspiracy theorist here on Super Topo are ALL on the Government dime!!

Klimmer= School Teacher

Werner= National Park Service

Rok= Unemployment? Last I heard and that was awhile ago.


Why the slam on youtube?

Because its a forum for any moron to portray themselves as credible.


Here comes the ole love it or leave argument.

Some of us took an oath to protect our nation, our Constitution against enemies both foreign and domestic.

You don't give up on your Country because there are crooks in office and criminals with dark hearts that seem to pull a lot of strings in the background. There are a lot of good people in government who do their job and protect our nation and our Constitution day in and day out. It's not everyone. There are white-hats and there are black-hats.

You don't give up. You fight peacefully speaking truth to corrupt power and when you can you bring them to justice.

Everyone needs to work to make our Country better.

So Port, when are you going to enlist and take the oath?




Youtube is just a free portal, nothing more. You can use it or abuse it.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
You guys should put your money where your mouth is and leave the country. I just can't understand how you can support a country with your tax dollars if you actually believe the sh#t you're spewing. If I believed half the crazy sh#t you do, I'd leave in a heart beat.

Ironically, the three major conspiracy theorist here on Super Topo are ALL on the Government dime!!

Klimmer= School Teacher

Werner= National Park Service

Rok= Unemployment? Last I heard and that was awhile ago.

LMAO!

yeah klimmer and Werner so much about it cuz they were in on it.....they are part of the problem, not the solution. RJ just spews cuz thats his favorite sport. i mean its not like he can talk around the water cooler at work right?
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
So does this flea-brained Werner dude ever say what he believed happened??

If he is saying that in some dark room of the fledgling Bush Administration - one that was still changing the Clinton's wallpaper - a massive plot was hatched to blow up buildings and fire missiles into others, killing thousands of Americans?

Is this half-wit trying to get normal, intelligent people to buy that civilian aircraft were shot down by military jets and/or these planes just disappeared?

Is this moron trying to sell the idea that hundreds or thousands of people who would have participated in this science fiction fantasy have been silent?

I'll kick in $ to send him on the first plane to Krazyf##kistan where he belongs.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
lostinshanghai,



I googled.


Ooopsie.


http://www.irishconcrete.ie/downloads/Concrete_and_Fire.pdf
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:55pm PT
Betelnut,


Read "Operation Northwoods" and tell me our government is not capable of planning and carrying out massive "false-flags" and evil, involving many people, killing our own people, hi-jacking jets, downing jets, switching jets and using a remote controlled aircraft, etc. etc. and then blaming it on Cuba to go to war, and then keeping their mouth shut about all of it.

When you can finally admit that our US government is capable of doing just what they have already admitted to in FOIA released official documents at GWU, then get back to us who want to know the truth no matter how difficult and painful it is to hear it.

Until then you are ignorant of the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 5, 2011 - 07:14pm PT
I googled

oopsie

That puts you in Group One Klimmer. Stupid, ignorant, naïve, brainless, idiot, school teachers.

Did you read it. if you did makes all your arguements wrong on WTC.

Still did not answer WHAT and WHY Stupid

And you are a teacher, elemantary? What grade 2-3?
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 5, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
Klimmer,

Operation Northwoods...zzzzzzzzzzzz
Ya think some nutty idea from 40+ years ago is evidence of your wacko super-conspiracy?
A government is a rotating cast of characters, Klim, not a living creature.

I don't argue creationism with religious friends - what's the point? They operate on faith and nothing I can say about science matters.

Same with arguing with Truther's. They ignore inconvenient facts that destroy their fantasy plot.

Look, if it keeps you happy and entertained, well, believe any nonsense you want.

But it's people like you that let O.J. walk
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
I googled

oopsie

That puts you in Group One Klimmer. Stupid, ignorant, naïve, brainless, idiot, school teachers.

Did you read it. if you did makes all your arguements wrong on WTC.

Still did not answer WHAT and WHY Stupid

And you are a teacher, elemantary? What grade 2-3?




Lots,


I already knew the answer, we all do. But for your understanding I gave you a great resource that indeed shows you that concrete doesn't burn and can take extremely high temps. and behaves like a ceramic. It doesn't conduct heat very well, hence its insulation like properties. Concrete is an insulator vs. a conductor. It doesn't conduct heat or electricity well at all because concrete = insulator.

We already know this. The WTC towers and all the concrete were pulverized by explosives. Many videos of the tower collapse show this very well.


The video that the debunkers don't want you to see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh7WbBGnMhI&feature=related

WTC buildings were turned to dust as they fell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enUOZZwxbRw&feature=fvwrel




You really can't let go of insults and belittling can you? Its the sign of a weak mind.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
Pulverized concrete again.

Is this the Comedy Central Channel?

Silent explosives turned the building to dust.

I know what's coming up next from Klimmer. Wait for it....







































































We have numerous reports of explosions!!!! (That no one recorded as the buildings fell)

Come on Klimmer, post that Naudet brothers video with the faked audio you posted before with the little bangs as the tower collapsed.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 08:54pm PT
Mono,

We have William Rodriguez's testimony of explosives going off prior to the jet impact in the basement of one of the towers, and a surviving victim that had his skin burned off as a result. His testimony is irrefutable.

Seismic data also verifies these explosions since they were in the basements and directly tied into the foundation bedrock.

The other tower had explosives going off in the basement also. There is testimony for that out there in addition.

There are hundreds perhaps thousands of eye-witness testimony from first responders that have been taken and recorded were they verify the truth of explosives going off, and some were even blown and thrown as a result.

Then we have all the MSM that also indicates explosives when they first reported. These aired just once and then not again. Yet people have recorded these MSM segments and have put them up on youtube.

Then we have an incredible amount of video available where we all witnessed the explosives pulverizing the towers so that they could fall at near free-fall acceleration with very little to no resistance from below, right into their own footprints. Not once, but 3 times!


There is a plethora of evidence of explosives.

Then there is the physical dust from 9-11 with Super Nano-thermite. It is what it is. It's empirical science that can't be denied. It isn't paint. Read the study in detail. I've posted all of this before.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 09:00pm PT
Those "explosions" didn't pulverize the building now did they silly boy?

The victim Rodriguez helped was burned from the fireball in the elevator shaft. He had burns, not impact wounds.

Its the same thing over and over. You claim the building was pulvarized, then point to alleged sounds that didn't happen during the collapse.

Come on, dude, explosions large enough to pulvarize a building (even standard demolitions don't do that and they are loud) would be so loud, they would be heard throughout Manhattan.

Produce the audio or STFU!
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
Hilarious, they collapsed into their own footprints, but still damaged and destroyed more then 20 buildings.

Did the rubble just bounce out Klimmer?

Do you think the buildings had to tip over to be a natural collapse?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
Mono,

I feel sorry for you. You throw out pure rubbish and lies and sadly you even believe them. Man are you deceived.




Mysterious Deaths of 9/11 Witnesses (MUST SEE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvay28lZiHU&feature=related

"So many 9/11 witnesses or people who would seem to have knowledge of the cover up have been mysteriously dying. This all can't be a coincidence."

monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
Did I lie in the last 2 posts? Please elaborate.

Maybe you can also explain how Hush-A-Boom(tm) bombs work?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
Mono,

I answered you already. You are the one dismissing all the testimony with the wave of your hand.

You can't do that. It's still there.



We have William Rodriguez's testimony of explosives going off prior to the jet impact in the basement of one of the towers, and a surviving victim that had his skin burned off as a result. His testimony is irrefutable.

Seismic data also verifies these explosions since they were in the basements and directly tied into the foundation bedrock.

The other tower had explosives going off in the basement also. There is testimony for that out there in addition.

There are hundreds perhaps thousands of eye-witness testimony from first responders that have been taken and recorded were they verify the truth of explosives going off, and some were even blown and thrown as a result.

Then we have all the MSM that also indicates explosives when they first reported. These aired just once and then not again. Yet people have recorded these MSM segments and have put them up on youtube.

Then we have an incredible amount of video available where we all witnessed the explosives pulverizing the towers so that they could fall at near free-fall acceleration with very little to no resistance from below, right into their own footprints. Not once, but 3 times!


There is a plethora of evidence of explosives.

Then there is the physical dust from 9-11 with Super Nano-thermite. It is what it is. It's empirical science that can't be denied. It isn't paint. Read the study in detail. I've posted all of this before.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
We have William Rodriguez's testimony of explosives going off prior to the jet impact in the basement of one of the towers, and a surviving victim that had his skin burned off as a result. His testimony is irrefutable.

Damn you are not very bright. That's before the collapse. How can explosions before the collapse pulvarize the building?

The other tower had explosives going off in the basement also. There is testimony for that out there in addition.

And these basement explosions are pulvarizing the buildings as they collapsed from the impact point?

And where's that audio Klimmer? One of the most recorded events in history and no audio of the bombs 'pulvarizing' the building?

Try to focus Klimmer, we are talking about the buildings being 'pulvarized' and 'turned to dust' during the collapse as you claimed.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 09:44pm PT
Damn you are not very bright. That's before the collapse. How can explosions before the collapse pulverize the building.


No, actually very bright. You're just throwing out stupid ad hominem attacks and deceit. The bottom basement explosives didn't pulverize the towers and you know this. They had another purpose and you know this also.

You know as well as everyone by this time what the explosives in the basement just immediately prior to the jets impacting indicates, and its purpose, and what it all means.

Many sites interested in the truth go into why this occurred.

I'm tired of going over the same things, over and over again with you. I only do so just in-case someone else is paying attention and will benefit. You certainly don't.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
Get some help Klimmer. You have problems with 'before', 'during' and 'after'. You tend to merge them all together.

I have no idea what the basement bombs were doing Klimmer, please elaborate.

Remember, the basement truck bombing was massive, yet did little structural damage as the tower was not closed long.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
Google is your friend Mono.

Use it if you truly are interested in knowing.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
That's funny you won't tell us.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
We have numerous reports of explosions!!!! (That no one recorded as the buildings fell)

Come on Klimmer, post that Naudet brothers video with the faked audio you posted before with the little bangs as the tower collapsed.


The level of denial is almost reaching a peak.

Riley, I have no idea who are Harriet and Jones. But if you have something to say about the video, why not say it?


Anyway, these are the real deal. If you watch only two videos, watch these. If you still believe that there's nothing fishy going on, then we must agree to disagree.


The Day The Illuminati Pushed Their Luck To Far..


9/11: Total Proof That Bombs Were Planted In The Buildings!


These prove that NIST lied about why they did not test for explosives, and it gives us a damn good reason why we should test for explosives.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 09:59pm PT
Riley, I have no idea who are Harriet and Jones.

Dang K-man, you have no idea who Jones is, the originator of your beloved Thermite theory?

Seriously?

Whoa..
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
Super Nano-thermite.

WOW!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:23pm PT
Oh, I thought the chemist from Copenhagen was the one who believed explosions in the buildings was the cause of their collapse.

I guess there's a LOT of folks who witnessed explosions before the buildings collapsed, and a LOT of folks who know scientifically that the buildings could not collapse they way they did without explosives.

However, after watching that video that Klimmer put up about the mysterious deaths of folks with first-hand knowledge of events, well I think I know enough.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:25pm PT
Yes . . .



Nano-Thermite explosions in dust at WTC 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUemun0iy_s

Nano-Thermite explosions in dust at WTC 7 (part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCyWibJT56w&feature=related



A team of nine scientists have unearthed startling data from dust gathered in the days and weeks after the World Trade Center towers collapsed on 9/11. They discovered that scattered throughout the dust samples were red and gray chips of active thermitic material, or an un-reacted pyrotechnic explosive.

Thermite is used in steel welding, fireworks shows, and hand grenades. It is the combination of a metal powder and a metal oxide which produce a reaction known for extremely high temperatures focused in a very small area for a short period of time. The active thermitic material discovered in the World Trade Center dust was a combination of elemental aluminum and iron oxide, and is a form of thermite known as nano-structured super-thermite.

Nano-laminate-based ignitors
United States Patent Application 20040060625

Attorney, Agent or Firm:
Assistant Laboratory, Counsel Ann Lee M. (Lawrence Livemore National Laboratory, Livermore, CA, 94551, US)

The invention claimed is:

1. A composition comprising: an energetic multilayer structure coated with an energetic booster material.

2. The composition recited in claim 1, wherein said composition is ignitable by mechanical stimuli.

3. The composition recited in claim 1, wherein said composition is ignitable by electrical energy.

4. The composition recited in claim 1, wherein said composition is ignitable by a laser.

5. The composition recited in claim 1, wherein said composition has an area ranging from 10−2 m2 to 102 m2.

6. The composition recited in claim 1, wherein said energetic booster material comprises an intimate mixture of at least one oxidizer(s) and at least one fuel, wherein at least one of the critical dimensions (length, height, width) of at least one of the constituents is less than 100 nm and at least one of the components of the energetic materials was derived via sol-gel methods.





An overview of the scientific paper . . .

Explosives Found in
World Trade Center Dust
Scientists Discover Both Residues
And Unignited Fragments
Of Nano-Engineered Thermitic Pyrotechnics
In Debris From the Twin Towers
by
Jim Hoffman
Version 1.00, April 3, 2009

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/explosive_residues.html

monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:25pm PT
Yep, your next K-man. You are quite the threat to the Truth.

Nano-Thermite is old news Klimmer.

We want to hear about Super Nano-Thermite.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:29pm PT
Yep, your next K-man. You are quite the threat to the Truth.




Mono,

Whether you are kidding or not Mono, that is really uncalled for.

Jokes like this should kick you off ST.
Or was it a joke?





Edit:

Listen to Dr. Steven Jones. That is what he calls it because of its explosive reaction.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:31pm PT
Hey mono, you figured out yet how those folks who were in the buildings when the explosions went off, how they got out before being crushed by the buildings? You know, you claim that the explosions were caused by the falling buildings.

Man, all those firefighters and office workers, fast runners, no?

Why, they must run as fast as you think...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
Uh,

Thermite is a WELDING process NOT a cutting process.

You ever light any off ?

It's a common process for us sparkys for bonding grounding cables. (CADWELD). It's also used in the railroad industry for emergency welding of rails together.

If you did a little research on it's military applications you'd know it is used for electric matches, a demolliton charge that welds up gun barrels, and as a propellant, NOT as a cutting charge.

That's what a PETN linear shaped charge is for.

Now that you have all your eggs in the "thermite" basket, where's your evidence for PETN?
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
You've got to be kidding Klimmer.

K-Man doesn't sound like he felt threatened.

K-Man, produce the audio of those bombs pulvarizing the building during collapse and we'll talk.

And please explain the purpose of bombs in the basement. Klimmer is too embarrassed to tell us.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
Some of the testimony of the bombs going off in the basements prior to planes hitting and also prior to the towers collapsing . . .


9/11 Eyewitness to Twin Towers Basement Explosion?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egIrVyM3FGY
9/11 Evidence of Bomb's in Basement of Wtc by Witnesses
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNNhnoV-EOo
9/11 - WTC "Another Explosion In The Basement Or Lower Levels (WNYW).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWSimrXmcTU
Eyewitness testimonies of the BOMBS inside the basement of the WTC Twin Towers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIhxK_QzGI0
9/11 Twin Towers: Bomb in the lobby!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwhU15UY3Fc&feature=related
William Rodriguez 9 11 Hero says there were bombs planted in the basement of the WTC's!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmqiSYAR1qI
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
Ever light off any thermite Klimmer?

What happens?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:46pm PT
Thanks Riley.

Is it rubbish that the fires were officially extinguished at WTC Dec 20, 2001? Rubbish that the surface temperature of the mound at Ground Zero was 720C three days after the event, even after heavy rains? Rubbish that they found molten steel at Ground Zero?

What part of the video is complete rubbish?

All the folks who say they saw/heard explosions, liars or just stoolies for the Truth Movement? The firefighter who explains how boldly NIST lied and how they ignored the basic guidelines for investigating fires, just a liar himself?

Yeah, I guess it's all just fabricated rubbish.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
If you watch the videos I've posted showing Dr. Jones regarding Thermite, Thermate, and nano-thermite, you would know they don't exactly have the same reactivity. He explains it very well.

Nano-thermite is explosive. Look at the quote regarding the patent that I posted.

I've seen thermate demoed in science lab. I haven't done it myself. Easy to do though. The materials for Thermate are widely available.

Videos I've posted show the classic demo with thermate in a small clay-ceramic pot placed on the engine hood of a car, then ignited and it melts its way from top to the ground right through the engine block in just a few seconds.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
K-Man, produce the audio of those bombs pulvarizing the building during collapse and we'll talk.

Wow, that was easy. mono isn't going to talk to me anymore. What a delight.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:51pm PT
Klimmer, not only that, but somebody posted an excellent video showing termite cutting steel, in his backyard.

But this is getting nowhere fast. Nobody has debunked any of the serious flaws we've listed in the OCT, they just keep throwing up BS, as in "show me this, so I can deny it exists."

Why I keep posting, I have to look into that.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
I guess no one wants to explain the purpose of bombs in the basement.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
Dr,. Jones doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

Have you ever lit off some thermite Klimmer?

What happens?

You get a blob of molten metal that then follows the laws of gravity and thermodynamics. How do you cut a vertical column with molten metal that descends vertically? Does gravity work horizontally in your alternate universe?


there's NO literature anywhere about nanothermites being used for anything other than electric matches and propellants. It's also exquisitely sensitive to static charges. How did they make sure someone sliding across a rug didn't set it off prematurely?

WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2011 - 10:56pm PT
All the strawman scarecrows came out of the woodworks today .......
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 10:58pm PT
And please explain the purpose of bombs in the basement. Klimmer is too embarrassed to tell us.

Why? Are you too lazy to check it out for yourself?


William Rodriguez already has and so have others. They give their best hypotheses.


Listen . . .

William Rodriguez 9 11 Hero says there were bombs planted in the basement of the WTC's!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmqiSYAR1qI



monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
Please explain it to us Klimmer.

You seem to have issues with spontaneous composition of ideas and can only cut and paste. Practice on us.

Particularly the part where the NWO has already implicated Islamic Jihadists with suicide hijackings, yet is pushing for something more, even though bombs in the basement would tend to implicate the NWO.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 5, 2011 - 11:08pm PT
Dr,. Jones doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

Have you ever lit off some thermite Klimmer?

What happens?

You get a blob of molten metal that then follows the laws of gravity and thermodynamics.


there's NO literature anywhere about nanothermites being used for anything other than electric matches and propellants. It's also exquisitely sensitive to static charges. How did they make sure someone sliding across a rug didn't set it off prematurely?


Didn't I just answer that question. TGT do you ever read anything? Where is your reading comprehension?


You don't know what you are talking about. Even the patent describes how it can be ignited: mechanical stimuli, lazer, and electrical energy. It doesn't specifically say electrical energy of such low fractions of an amp such as static charge.

So you have experience with weapon grade nano-thermite I take it? HHHHhhhhhhhhhhmmmmm, interesting.


Nano-Thermite explosions in dust at WTC 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUemun0iy_s

Nano-Thermite explosions in dust at WTC 7 (part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCyWibJT56w&feature=related



A team of nine scientists have unearthed startling data from dust gathered in the days and weeks after the World Trade Center towers collapsed on 9/11. They discovered that scattered throughout the dust samples were red and gray chips of active thermitic material, or an un-reacted pyrotechnic explosive.

Thermite is used in steel welding, fireworks shows, and hand grenades. It is the combination of a metal powder and a metal oxide which produce a reaction known for extremely high temperatures focused in a very small area for a short period of time. The active thermitic material discovered in the World Trade Center dust was a combination of elemental aluminum and iron oxide, and is a form of thermite known as nano-structured super-thermite.

Nano-laminate-based ignitors
United States Patent Application 20040060625

Attorney, Agent or Firm:
Assistant Laboratory, Counsel Ann Lee M. (Lawrence Livemore National Laboratory, Livermore, CA, 94551, US)

The invention claimed is:

1. A composition comprising: an energetic multilayer structure coated with an energetic booster material.

2. The composition recited in claim 1, wherein said composition is ignitable by mechanical stimuli.

3. The composition recited in claim 1, wherein said composition is ignitable by electrical energy.

4. The composition recited in claim 1, wherein said composition is ignitable by a laser.

5. The composition recited in claim 1, wherein said composition has an area ranging from 10−2 m2 to 102 m2.

6. The composition recited in claim 1, wherein said energetic booster material comprises an intimate mixture of at least one oxidizer(s) and at least one fuel, wherein at least one of the critical dimensions (length, height, width) of at least one of the constituents is less than 100 nm and at least one of the components of the energetic materials was derived via sol-gel methods.





An overview of the scientific paper . . .

Explosives Found in
World Trade Center Dust
Scientists Discover Both Residues
And Unignited Fragments
Of Nano-Engineered Thermitic Pyrotechnics
In Debris From the Twin Towers
by
Jim Hoffman
Version 1.00, April 3, 2009

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/explosive_residues.html

Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 5, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
OMG, the mythology of the extremist, Truther Lunatic Fringe is endless!
Klimmer, you need professional help. Get weaned off the Conspiracy Industry and become a productive member of society.
monolith

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
I guess we won't hear from Klimmer or K-man about the purpose of bombs in the basement.

Here's a well respected Truther site that debunks the bombs and William Rodriguez.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/theories/basementbomb.html

Good Night!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 6, 2011 - 03:10am PT
Riley, the first premise in the essay you posted is flawed. A big fat lie occurs in the second sentence:

Many people interpreted the loud sounds and debris being projected out sideways during the Tower collapses as an indication that explosives were used to demolish the buildings. Most of these 'explosive' sounds, heard during the collapses were heard after the collapses began.

Because this story begins with a big fat lie, I didn't read any more. Why bother when the second sentence is a blatant lie? I reason that what follows must assume that you swallowed the original lie.

Did you swallow it?

How about this: If you review the video of people reporting explosions, you will see that most were IN THE BUILDINGS when they heard/saw the explosions.

If these explosive sounds were heard during the collapse of the buildings, I put forth that none of these people would be alive to tell their story.



I posted two links above: one is a firefighter giving details on the national standard guidelines for investigating fires. It shows that NIST did not follow the national standard procedure when investigating the collapse of the WTC buildings.

Care to comment on that, and on why you think it's OK that NIST did not test for explosives? Especially considering that the national standard guidelines for investigating fires says that you are to rule out fires if pulverized concrete is found. Where pulverized concrete is found, you are to instead concentrate on looking for evidence that explosives were used.

I find that odd, or telling. Don't you?

Notice any pulverized concrete at WTC? Heck, I sure do! Even the NY Governor talks about the thickness of the stuff.

Of course, NIST gave the explanation that because nobody reported explosions, that they didn't test for explosives. That's why I also posted the second link, it shows many people talking about their first-hand experience with explosions.

I conclude that the NIST report begins with a lie. And you already know how I feel about stories that begin with lies.

Anybody care to comment?



EDIT: Here's the links again, in case you care:

The Day The Illuminati Pushed Their Luck To Far..


9/11: Total Proof That Bombs Were Planted In The Buildings!
raymond phule

climber
Sep 6, 2011 - 03:29am PT

Notice any pulverized concrete at WTC? Heck, I sure do! Even the NY Governor talks about the thickness of the stuff!

So what is the reason why pulverized concrete shouldn't exist at WTC? What is supposed to happen with concrete when a building fall over it self?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 6, 2011 - 03:36am PT
raymond. I will say this slowly, perhaps you can understand.

The national standard guidelines for investigating fires (understand what this means?)

say:

If pulverized concrete is present, test for explosives.


Got it?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 6, 2011 - 03:44am PT
Thanks, an answer not in the form of a youtube video.

So I get it. It is obviously nothing strange with pulverized concrete at WTC but some code says that they should have tested for explosives?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 6, 2011 - 03:49am PT
Well raymond, I guess nothing is strange about the pulverized concrete, as long as there were explosions there to make the stuff. Normally, buildings that collapse don't pulverize the majority of the concrete in the building.

Take a look at the pictures of the WTC Towers as they begin to collapse. You see lots of pulverized concrete, even before there's any chance of it being created by floors smashing into themselves.

In any case, standard operating procedure says to test for explosives in this case. NIST did not, even with pleading by many. It's a cheap test.

Go figure.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 6, 2011 - 04:05am PT

Well raymond, I guess nothing is strange about the pulverized concrete, as long as there were explosions there to make the stuff. Normally, buildings that collapse don't pulverize the majority of the concrete in the building.

So you really think it is strange that a huge building that is collapsing is pulverizing the concrete? Do you have an example of a building with at least 50 floors collapsing without the use of explosives without pulverizing the concrete? What is supposed to happened with the concrete in that case?

Is is possibly that the firemen testing code (or whatever it was) was mainly concerned with smaller buildings when they talked about pulverized concrete and explosives?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 6, 2011 - 11:17am PT
Wow, a thorough debunking of Lawyer.

But Lo! it is such a hit piece, I am easily finding errors, slants, character assassination, and the omission of important points that Erik makes.

I will trot out my favorite:

at 3:00 he states "Even on a routine house fire, if we suspect even the slightest use of an accelerant, we test for it."

Yes, where you do not know the cause of the fire, and there is physical evidence of an accelerant. None was found. Well, except for the giant diesel fuel tanks that was contained in 7WTC. But, we know they were there.


BINGO! BUSTED!!! The NIST report specifically states that the diesel fuel tanks were NOT part of the cause for the failure of WTC7. Yet here, they are using them as part of their reasoning for why the building failed.

In other words, they themselves do not believe the NIST report! What a bunch of hypocrites.



Certainly the article points out EVERY small detail that it can, showing how wrong Erik is.

I could go line by line through that "debunking," and show how they take lines out of context (e.g., "At 1:00 he says " I have seen a lot of crime scenes, but I have never seen anything like it in my life." Here, he is talking about the destruction of evidence, but the debunking ignores the context here. Clever, no? No.), they blur the meaning of what Erik is saying, and totally ignore major points that Erik surfaces. Yes, I could go line-by-line, but who wants to read such drivel.


However, I will raise one thing: The point of the Erik's entire speech is that the NIST report is flawed and that there should be an investigation that can subpena people and hold people accountable.

Funny, even though they completely debunk Erik's speech, they completely leave out the most important point that he makes, and that is the reasons NIST gave for not testing for explosives.

At 6:15, Erik states one of the reasons NIST did not test for explosives was because "no blast sounds were heard on the audio tracks of the video recordings in the collapse of WTC7 or reported by witnesses."

Do you see the lie here? I made it bold in case you missed it.

The debunking article goes nowhere near Erik's remarks about the reasons NIST gave for not testing for explosives. Why? Because these are facts that they can't dispute.

The debunking spends several paragraphs explaining that NFPA is not a law (duh, nobody said it was), but they completely ignore the main point of the entire speech: That NIST did not do a thorough investigation!

So I ask again (because my question was completely side-stepped with the posting of the BS debunking article):


Why do you think it's OK that NIST did not test for explosives?


It is clear that NIST lied in their report when they gave the reasons why they did not test for explosives. Are you OK with them lying about this very important point, and if so why?




You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 6, 2011 - 11:41am PT
I promise, I will do my best to make this my last post here.

Take a look at Eric Lawyer's open letter, it is very telling
(I know it's long, I usually try to not post such long quotes because
they will likely not get read. But this is important, trust me):

Hello my Brothers – I am here to take some heat, respond to the questions, assumptions, and answer any questions anyone may have.

I am not here to name call, make it personal, or “convince” you.

I’m here to raise awareness, and challenge you to remove the emotion and really look at the evidence objectively.

If anybody is interested, you can read my Mayday letter to see how I went "cuckoo cuckoo." http://firefightersfor911truth.org/?p=300

For years I believed the "official story" and aggressively defended it. I read Popular Mechanics and watched all the specials that went over the cause of collapse. I refused to listen to my Lt., told him he was crazy, and should leave the country. I really didn't listen to any of what I thought were "whack jobs/liberals/9-11 twoofers" until a buddy of mine who is a West Point grad non-emotionally opened my eyes.

Trust me, I know how most of you feel. I was there myself just 1 year ago. I didn’t objectively look at the evidence until March of 2008. And, I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't think the survival of our Country and our Constitution depends on us "waking up" and standing up together. You should check out www.Patriotsquestion911.com to see how many high ranking military officers, intelligence officers, etc are saying the same thing. I personally know many of them now, and trust me when I say their Patriotism and loyalty to the U.S.A. is SOLID, as is mine. When we have that many brothers who have been on the inside saying we have “domestic enemies” I take it seriously because I took an oath years ago pledging I would defend the Constitution against “all enemies, foreign and domestic.” If you took that Oath, you too should, at the very least, objectively inform yourself.

As far as a "franchise"...no, that is not true. We came up with the name (because of Pilots and Architects for 911 truth). I, and a few other firefighters, built the site and funded it - we did not get ANY money from any political group-nor do I side with any political group now.

As far as "he promotes misinformation like, "Building #7 collapsed with no structural damage and miniscule fire damage. Why aren’t our fellow firefighters asking why?"" – This was a comment by a Battalion Chief in response to my letter– it is not in our posts. And – if you haven’t seen it yet, you should read the NIST final report on the cause of collapse of Tower 7 that came out in 2008. It contradicts what Popular Mechanics had claimed caused collapse. Then compare this to the Beijing Mandarin fire and the Windsor Building and honestly explain why they didn’t have the same complications from “thermal expansion.” And, look at WTC 3, 4, 5, and 6 that all stood with even greater fire and debris damage.

As far as "NFPA 921 is not an outline for investigating a terrorism incident" - Is there another National Standards Guideline for building fires due to Terrorism that we are unaware of? Tower 7 was not struck by an aircraft. Plus, if you haven’t read it yet, NFPA 921 does mention terrorism. And, honestly ask yourself why N.I.S.T. refused to test for explosives even though terrorists used explosives in ’93, there was molten steel and concrete, there were 118 first responders who heard explosions, Barry Jennings NYC Housing Authority Emergency Coordinator was blown down by an explosion in WTC 7, there are audio recordings of explosions. Think about it – we would test a house fire for accelerants if we had those types of indicators. Shouldn’t we be even more thorough on the first high rise collapses, that caused the death of so many? Can anybody legitimately explain why a simple test that could have put this all to bed was so aggressively avoided?

As far as “To me the continual conspiracy nonsense serves only to dishonor those that died heros AND innocent victims that day.” My intention is not to dishonor any of our Brothers or civilians who were murdered. I have the utmost respect for them. We have many surviving family members who have sent us letters of support and thanks. And, consider for a moment…what if all these military officers, insiders, and even FBI agents who have spoken out are right….isn’t it a much greater dishonor to allow this to be covered up?

If you’ve read this far – thank you.

Respectfully,
Erik Lawyer
erik@firefightersfor911truth.org
raymond phule

climber
Sep 6, 2011 - 11:48am PT

I promise, this will be my last post here.

Take a look at Eric Lawyer's open letter, it is very telling
(I know it's long, I usually try to not post such long quotes because
they will likely not get read. But this is important, trust me):

Telling?

Do you really believe people is going to look at the long youtube videos that you link to but is going to ignore a quote because it might take a couple of minutes to read?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 6, 2011 - 12:26pm PT
“I already knew the answer, we all do. But for your understanding I gave you a great resource that indeed shows you that concrete doesn't burn and can take extremely high temps. and behaves like a ceramic. It doesn't conduct heat very well, hence its insulation like properties. Concrete is an insulator vs. a conductor. It doesn't conduct heat or electricity well at all because concrete = insulator.”

“Stupid is as stupid does”

A3. It means that although you may be slow, stupidity is based more on your actions than on the speed at which you think.

You still have not told me the mechanical properties under those conditions. Simple answer: two words is all it takes. Did you ever pass a physics test?

WHAT happens and WHY? Do the test in front of your kids that you can not teach. Then get back to me stupid. Make sure you do the test as Group One so the kids learn about their stupid teacher.

Do you even know the unit weight of regular concrete that was used for the buildings or any building; was it a prescribed [prescription] or non-prescribed matrix or other? Give me the properties of the lightweight concrete and what happens to the lightweight under those conditions? Since you said you know the answers and everyone else does.

Gooooooooooooogle it.

Forrest Gump

You gave me a great resource? At least you are a comedian. Still say you and fattrad need to get an act together and do world tours.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 6, 2011 - 09:27pm PT
“Stupid is as stupid does”

A3. It means that although you may be slow, stupidity is based more on your actions than on the speed at which you think.

You still have not told me the mechanical properties under those conditions. Simple answer: two words is all it takes. Did you ever pass a physics test?

WHAT happens and WHY? Do the test in front of your kids that you can not teach. Then get back to me stupid. Make sure you do the test as Group One so the kids learn about their stupid teacher.

Do you even know the unit weight of regular concrete that was used for the buildings or any building; was it a prescribed [prescription] or non-prescribed matrix or other? Give me the properties of the lightweight concrete and what happens to the lightweight under those conditions? Since you said you know the answers and everyone else does.

Gooooooooooooogle it.

Forrest Gump

You gave me a great resource? At least you are a comedian. Still say you and fattrad need to get an act together and do world tours.






Lost,

Been busy today. Then I get back and find your poo-poo smeared all over ST here in this thread.



As your own choice of moniker suggests you are "lost" in ad hominem despotism.

Geeeee, how many times did you attempt to put me down in that bile stream of diatribe?

Why should I even have any discourse with you?





Lost, get some professional help. You really need it.



http://firefightersfor911truth.org/?p=300

' . . . most debunking sites I usually found name calling and smear tactics. In my own personal experience, as soon as someone needs to resort to name calling and smearing during a debate, they’re not very secure in their “facts” or the “truth.” I found that many of these debunking sites also failed to tackle some of the most compelling evidence.'
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 7, 2011 - 12:19am PT
Boys, boys...if a small fraction of your fantasy were true,there would have been hundreds of books written by participants ("I rigged the South Tower"), Oprah interviews, reality shows, action figures, etc.

Your 15 minutes is up.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2011 - 12:36am PT
Hey Poser Betelnut, and Port where's my my fuking plane ticket?

Huh? Huh?

You run your mouth get me my plane ticket.

By the way I got all the goods. The smokin gun sh'it.

The real stuff. Straight from the source.

But you're too stupid and waste all your time googling ......
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Sep 7, 2011 - 01:05am PT
Funniest post on this ridiculous thread... Klimmer telling someone they need to get professional help!!!
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2011 - 01:15am PT
The theists get's help for free.

The atheist has to pay the mental speculator professional.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 7, 2011 - 02:19am PT
Riley, I do hear you. And I respect your views.

I haven't been clear on this, but my mind is not made up on this stuff. That's why I keep pushing for an open and honest investigation.

It seems impossible to me that WTC7 could have fallen the way it did, by office fires. The many eye-witness reports of explosions can't go unexplained.

There is contradicting evidence, sure, and there is overwhelming evidence that the OTC happened close to how the 9-11 Commission described. But there is also obvious cover-ups. On a Huge scale.

Werner is right, searching the internet is not going to provide the answers. Somebody could make a realistic looking video of Bozo the Clown driving an ice cream cart into the Pentagon while serving Popsicles that looked like Marilyn Monroe, and nobody would be the wiser.

It's unimaginable what it would have taken to pull this off as an inside job. I admit that. But the amount of coincidences and oddities in the OCT is also off the chart on the implausible scale.

So I came back for this one post, Riley, because you directed your thoughts to me. Thanks for the reach out.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Sep 7, 2011 - 02:32am PT
steel at 800C loses 90% of its strength.

Not very hard to get that temperature either. Check these little
backyard ovens rated to attain 800C with a few lbs of wood.
http://www.lepanyol.com.au/models.html


A human can bend red hot steel by arm strength alone so imagine thousands of tons of red hot damaged building core you conspiracy theorists.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 7, 2011 - 02:36am PT
It's unimaginable what it would have taken to pull this off as an inside job.

Yeah, nearly every WTC cop, facilities manager, electrician, painter, carpenter, carpet guy, janitor, telcom and network admin, security guard, garbage man, floor polisher, sprinkler guy, window washer, elevator maintenance folk would have to have been in on it and all still be keeping the secret.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Sep 7, 2011 - 11:40am PT
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-09-07/

this is a link to eSkeptic online magazine article that debunks the WTC conspiracy theory... worth reading!! Trust me.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 7, 2011 - 12:29pm PT
that is a good article. but since it does not support the conspiracy theorists, there is no way they will acknowledge it. they are guilty of ignorance of the highest order. and willfully accuse innocent people of killing fellow americans with no motive other than to have the government start some wars and spend billions on top secret stuff.

these nutjobs do not like being called nutjobs even as they call some courageous americans killers. whacked out is what they are.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 7, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
A 14 million dollar NIST investigation, yet they didn't conduct a simple test for explosives, when over a hundred firemen and dozens of citizens reported explosions.

Why did they lie about why they did not do the test?

The Mineta testimony.

The Pentagon building and lack of evidence that a plane hit the facade (no wing/engine marks).

The obvious burying of pre-attack signals.

The hard questions always get glossed over, ignored.


You can try to put the cart before the donkey, and try to figure out who, why. But why not first do a real investigation where all the evidence is taken in and processed. Where every possible avenue is explored.

You simply cannot answer these questions. I've asked many times, and every one of you Believers ignore them.

I know why.

Can anybody legitimately explain why a simple [explosives] test that could have put this all to bed was so aggressively avoided?
-- Erik Lawyer
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
The skeptics are bigger nut cases and whack jobs than any of em .....
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 7, 2011 - 12:57pm PT
Oh! Did I hurt the poor babies’ feelings? So sorry I used STUPID should have used DUMB; as in dumb and dumber.

So concrete behaves like a ceramic? You’d be a great engineer Klimmer.

So you can’t find the answer, so you find another avenue just like your god loving buddy Pat Robertson when his critics say he is a mad man, Pat baby says the same thing he is mis-quoted or it’s the commies/liberals that are after me.

What happened to your Moon project, NASA, contrails, JFK, weather and every conspiracy you are following for the day or thinking of; guess you found this current one now that more people think like you. Ah! So now you have a cause.

I see you mentioned IHOP in one of your writings. Did you have prior knowledge of the Carson City shootings? Did you help him? That is where I see you Klimmer: school teacher typical religious nut [christian], hate for US government, conspiracy buff goes postal. The chemistry/compulsions is frying your brain.

Happy that you are on "a" list and be glad when they put you in isolation to keep from harming anyone.

Find the answer Klimmer. See you can’t.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 7, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
So if a missile hit the Pentagon where did it come from? Have any of you
ever seen the chain of command regarding the arming of missiles and their
launch? I know it was the Mother of all Conspiracies but, really, there are
just too many blabbermouths out there. I mean, like, they couldn't even
keep the lid on that Roswell thing, ya know?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 7, 2011 - 01:24pm PT

The Pentagon building and lack of evidence that a plane hit the facade (no wing/engine marks).

I have to admit that I don't know how how the marks on a building after a plane flying into it should look like? Do you know how it should look like?

A lot of thing could happen during the crash. The wings could for example detach from the plane and turn forward/inward when the noose of the plane hit a wall and de-accelerate fast. The complete opposite might also happen. I don't know but how it should look but I kind of doubt that the mark should look like an airplane shadow or something like that.

Another thing I don't understand is that we should believe the eyewitnesses that for example heard explosion but the eyewitnesses that saw a plane close to the pentagon seems to be mostly ignored.
monolith

climber
Sep 7, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
Really K-Man, a simple explosive test done by the government would put this all to rest?

I laugh robustly.

Still waiting for that audio of the bombs pulverizing all that concrete during the collapse.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 7, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
The skeptics are bigger nut cases and whack jobs than any of em .....

i totally agree....the skeptics who think conspiracy are whack jobs.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 7, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
Hey Poser Betelnut, and Port where's my my fuking plane ticket?

Huh? Huh?

You run your mouth get me my plane ticket.

So your own government murdering its citizens isn't enough to make you leave the country, but a $200 plain ticket is whats keeping you here?????
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Sep 7, 2011 - 04:07pm PT
That's funny Werner.... because that's what conspiracy people are... they are Skeptics in that they don't believe a particular version of things, and in this case the so called "official" version. Skeptics need proof!! Every one who has posted on this thread is a Skeptic!!! They are just skeptical about different things.

A Utube video is not proof an anything, because we all know how easily videos can be manipulated. If you propose the idea that a missle and not an airliner crashed into the pentagon then show us the evidence! I am a skeptic of the "conspiracy" people in this instance. That is not to say that some conspiracys don't exist in our world. But you have to prove they exist and not just ignore established facts that don't support your view.

Unfortunately, most conspiracy folks don't provide answers, just questions. They cannot be convinced no matter what facts, information, and rational explanations are offered. Sort of like people of faith... faith is all they need... they accept no rational explanations because those explanations are not needed, faith is enough for them. They lack critical thinking skills and are proud of it! Skepticism is a good thing if it leads to investigation and not just irrational acceptance of unproven ideas.

Personally I know very little of the facts in this particular case and I am very sure most of the people posting know as little as I do.. so what do we do? We ask people with knowledge in the subject area and evaluate what they have to say. Then we decide what we think is correct. Paraphrasing a Paul Simon lyric.. "People hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest". From what I have read and seen this particular conspiracy hypothesis appears much more unlikely than likely.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 7, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
but a $200 plain ticket is whats keeping you here?????

Naw.. I'm just hoping you will send me 200 dollars for a plane ticket. I want to spend the winter in the Caribbean and every dollar helps.

So its been decided???

Everyone who doesn't fully accept the official version is completely nuts and
everyone who fully accepts the official version is completely nuts.

Glad we got that decided.

Yes.. I'm completely nuts, I don't fully accept the official version. Just wanted to make that clear so perhaps someone will send me a plane ticket out of here.

raymond phule

climber
Sep 7, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
I have no clue what I expect to see in the first pics as they look pretty similar to the pics from pentagon.

Regarding the last one compared to the plane into WTC I guess I have to assume that no planes flow inte the WTC tower because the "planes" seemed to penetrate the building.

No ron, I doubt a difference in speed make a difference.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Sep 7, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
If you drop a phone book on the floor making a loud bang the conspiracy
theorist in the next cubical will swear it was an explosion and those
in management are now covering up the truth.

Pity the fools!

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 7, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
I doubt a difference in speed make a difference

Au contraire! It makes a huge difference as does the size of the plane and
the type of building that is hit. Ever see pictures of boards driven through
trees by tornados?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 7, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
Ok, so the plane was not even a jet but a turboprop. It was not 119 people in the plane. It seems like one wing hit the building.

I guess this was exact what happened in pentagon and is also proof that wtc was taken down with demolitions because the building didn't even fall.

I would say foolproof proof that it was a conspiracy!
raymond phule

climber
Sep 7, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
Do I really have to answer that?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 7, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
Just curious. Are you saying that a hercules and a 757 is similar airplanes or did you say that the building that the hercules hit where smaller than pentagon so we don't need the same sized plane?

Do you even know if it was a head on collision? My information say that it wasn't.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 7, 2011 - 04:49pm PT

Witness Iraj Moradin told The Associated Press the plane appeared to be circling the airport when its tail suddenly burst into flames, leaving a smoke trail as it plummeted. He said he fled when he thought the plane was going to crash into a gas station, but turned in time to see it hit the building.

The similarity with pentagon is almost scary.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 7, 2011 - 05:13pm PT
I have this strange idea that size might matter when an airplane hit a building, it is also possibly that the speed matters. I am not sure but the amount of fuel in the plane might also be a factor in the result.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 7, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
I would think that climbers would understand 1/2 MV squared.

Double the velocity = four times the energy.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 7, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
Simple balistics.

As I posted last month.

"I wanna know how this big ass plane could do what it did."


Real simple physics.

1/2 MV Squared. / the area of the impact.

The same reason a marble size piece of copper can squirt thru a foot of armor plate steel like it was butter.

200,000lb airplane at 500 mph with a 16 ft diameter nose?

That's about 21-1/2 MILLION foot pounds of energy per square foot.

Also why about everything that went thru the hole was for the most part vaporized.

BTW the tail of a 757 is for the most part carbon fiber. Not that that matters much. There was enough energy to vaporize aluminum.



raymond phule

climber
Sep 7, 2011 - 05:25pm PT

But rarely can you develope an experiemnt that deals with the exact same forces and materials, you build models and extrapalote from them. Its the way to do stuff that you can't duplicate. I mean, its THE way.

Yes, it is one way but it of course important to do the scale tests with models with properties in the correct relation to each other.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Sep 7, 2011 - 06:55pm PT
Rice met with CIA director George Tenet to personally convey the Bush administration's approval of the proposed waterboarding of alleged Al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah

On the plus side,(but not condoning it) it could'nt have happened to a better guy...
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Sep 7, 2011 - 07:38pm PT
popular mechanics debunks the conspiracy MYTHS

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-planes
monolith

climber
Sep 7, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
^^Werner gonna blow a gasket^^
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 7, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
All that I want to know is if I am getting my 200 bucks. I was promised 200 bucks if I would leave the country. So where is my 200 bucks?

Not that 200 bucks can really get you anywhere, but the partyline folks are all cheap asses.. heh heh.. who wont even spring for a simple explosives test, after spending 14 million on their theory.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
Why would I need to blow a gasket?

Everyone already knows the Popular Mechanics article is total bullsh'it.

Everyone in Washington knows its bullsh'it.

Everyone in Washington for years and years knows its an inside job ......
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 7, 2011 - 09:27pm PT
OK, Werner, admit it - this is all a false flag operation, isn't it? It was all directed from a secret bunker hidden in Yosemite Valley. Though possibly the aliens from the ark on the moon, operating from the grassy knoll in area 51, were also involved. Behind it all, bear #46. The master mind.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 7, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
Werner, you and your gang are freakin nuts!!! I hope you don't talk about this in public. You don't, right? I mean, around a campfire is ok, but not to people who dwell on Earth.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
Betelnut -- " ... but not to people who dwell on Earth."

You must dumber than any sh'it on earth.

Where the fuk do you dwell.

Outer space of course that's why you can't figure out anything on earth ......
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
All you have to is read the 911 commission report.

It's all in there.

Your mind will be blown .....
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 7, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
Code again, Werner. Let's hear your 9/11 Hypothesis.
We've heard science, experiment, whatever....
We've read your cryptic sentences.
Now try to write an entire paragraph.

I'm laying odds you can't do it.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2011 - 11:16pm PT
Hypothesis is for mental speculators.

One must know the truth, not theory, speculation, hypothesis.

Foolish rascal .....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 7, 2011 - 11:17pm PT
All will be revealed to initiates of Werner's Inner Circle, at the FaceLift. Please bring your decoder rings, and don't forget the secret password and handshake.
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 7, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
Werner, are you aware those are words strung together with no meaning?

I am finally getting the hoax. Jokes on all of us.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 8, 2011 - 01:32am PT

9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out, Trailer; AE911Truth.org, 9/11/11 Anniversary DVD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIOC1J44RYw&feature=related


Uploaded by ae911truth on Jul 31, 2011

This is the trailer for the expert-packed feature-length documentary by Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth. The documentary premieres around the world the week prior to the September 11, 2011 Anniversary.

Help us take advantage of the lead-up to the 10th anniversary to publicize the evidence about the destruction of the 3 WTC high-rises on 9/11. See the AE911Truth Action Alert, http://ae911truth.org/news-section/41-articles/544-eso-trailer.html, and share the trailer "Experts Speak Out" http://www.911ExpertsSpeakOut.org with family, friends, and associates. Don't forget your Facebook, Twitter, and other contacts. Order the DVD today at http://www.ae911truth.net/store while stock lasts in order to guarantee shipment by September 11, 2011.

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Join 23-year architect Richard Gage, AIA, in this feature length documentary with cutting-edge 9/11 evidence from more than 50 top experts in their fields -- high-rise architects, structural engineers, physicists, chemical engineers, firefighters, metallurgists, explosives experts, controlled demolition technicians, and more. Each is highly qualified in his/her respective fields. Several have Ph.D's -- including National Medal of Science awardee Lynn Margulis. She, along with the other experts, exposes the fraud of NIST and discusses how the scientific method should have been applied and acknowledges the "overwhelming" evidence of high temperature incendiaries in all dust samples of the WTC.

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Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 8, 2011 - 01:37am PT
Forget about imaginary bombs in basements - I bet some of you know lots about bats in belfries.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:07am PT
9/11 NIST FOIA WTC1 Explosive Footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twEwPo4j1ak&feature=related

9/11 NIST FOIA Release - Shockwave Ripples the Glass Up the Side of the World Trade Center
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChEdo3ZzGLY&feature=related

9/11 WTC Detonations Clearly Revealed In This Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep_wexek8lA&feature=related

9/11 North Tower Audible Explosions And Flashes That Leave Small White Smoke Puffs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mIw1Y-ouQs&feature=related

9/11 Eyewitnesses to Explosive WTC Demolition 1/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNLa93Q_rvM&feature=watch_response_rev

9/11 Eyewitnesses to Explosive WTC Demolition 2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbFL5OzQn3o&feature=related




Try to tell me the towers were not taken down by demolition.


Just try.


We have a plethora of visual evidence, audio evidence, eye witness evidence, and physical evidence.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:27am PT
Interesting post klimmer. Those youtube videos show that it is possibly for people to see what they want to see.

So it might have been a explosion at one place in the wtc towers. Is that supposed to mean anything?

I have to admit that I really can't hear the explosions in the other video and I am not that surprised that a crashing building make sounds.

The same about the puffs of white smoke. I have no idea what I am supposed to see.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:50am PT
Klimmer - those three videos show no such thing as claimed in each - that's about as weak as fairy tales come. Oh, and love the reflection as 'ripples'. All three are embarrassing.

Have you ever been around explosives or explosions? Ever been to a demo? If you're cutting curtain walls of exterior tubes you'd be seeing either simultaneous or sequences of explosures along the exterior walls of the building - there's no other way to cut them. The 'explosions' required to cut the WTC exterior walls would be more on the order of what's in this video at 7:10. In order to blow the core you'd see enormous pressure waves coming out of those floors which is entirely absent.

Overall, the basic stupidity of the assumption is that cone or linear shaped charges could be placed, wired, and detonated with even a remote semblance of 'secrecy' - anyone who has ever worked in an office building or on a house would know it's utter nonsense.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:55am PT

Try to tell me the towers were not taken down by demolition.


Just try.


We have a plethora of visual evidence, audio evidence, eye witness evidence, and physical evidence.

The towers were not taken down by demolition. It was not that hard to say.

I haven't seen any evidence at all. A youtube video where someone claim that you can hear explosions is not really evidence.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:24am PT
Have I asked for recordings of explosions?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:29am PT
You couldn't care less but you write a post about my reaction?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:34am PT
Can someone except klimmer and rokjox hear the explosions?

One (of course very very small) difference is that the sounds from the demolition footage comes before the building collapse but the sound from the WTC happens during the collapse. Is is possibly that the sound actually comes from the collapse of the building?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:51am PT
Have you seen the video you are talking about? The sounds that is supposed to be the explosives seems to happened when the building have already been falling down for more than a second.

Your argument seem to prove that the sounds is just sounds from the falling building because it seems to be a delay in time from the start of the collapse.
ntanygd760

Gym climber
roanoke, TX
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:04am PT
the government had help to hide the fact it was a controlled demolition. It is so obv who helped them I don't have a clue how you can't see it.............
































































































raymond phule

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 07:25am PT
Is it a single building in that movie that crash down in even the slightest way similar to WTC, i.e. from the top with a cloud of debris going down with the building?

I guess it is necessary to think outside the box. They couldn't pull the buildings in the usual way because it would be to obvious so they pulled the buildings in a novel way from the top instead from the bottom.
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 10:25am PT
Rox, still no audio of bombs pulverizing the building and turning it to dust during the collapse as K-Man and Klimmer (our Special K's) claim.

One of the most recorded events in history, and nada.

A standard demo is loud, very loud. That's on a prepped building using very little explosives. No pulverization. Think of the amount of explosives needed to pulverize an entire building and the sound it would produce.

Why would the NWO want to pulverize a building?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 11:16am PT
It's easy to fool the fools, especially when they willingly deny evidence. Eye witnesses, photographic evidence, physical evidence.

118 firefighters say they experienced explosions. Dozens of civilians claim the same. There is photographic and video evidence.

If you watch the videos posted, you will see one where all the windows in the WTC Tower's lobby were blown out by a blast. The video is taken from the inside, so it's before the building fell.

You cannot make that up, there is a video of it.

But, the Believers, all they want to do is deny it. "I don't see any explosions in that film, that booming sound could be a phone book hitting the floor."

Remember, you are spitting in the face of 118 firemen. What about the clip that shows the firemen pulling out of the buildings because they fear *another* bomb might go off.

Deny that one too, eh?


I don't find it odd that not a single Believer can give even a faint whisper as to why a $14 million investigation aggressively avoided doing a simple test for explosives with the WTC dust, and then lied about why they did not do the test!

I don't find it odd that not a single Believer can give even a faint whisper as to why a $14 million investigation aggressively avoided doing a simple test for explosives with the WTC dust, and then lied about why they did not do the test!

Until a Believer attempts to view that fact through an objective lens, each Believer must admit to themselves that they are denying the obvious.

The NIST report is a whitewash. Admit it.
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 11:27am PT
The FBI and BATF tested for explosives at Fresh Kills K-Man. They also had explosives detecting dogs there as well. Nothing, nada.

Gravity is a powerful force K-Man. That's what pulverized the buildings.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 11:28am PT
Mono, source?
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 11:32am PT
I always have to do the work for you K-Man. It will come. Some of us work for a living. I'll just leave you hanging for now.

Why are you so ignorant about these things?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 11:35am PT
Wow mono, you beg me to provide sources for the claims that I make. Ridicule me when I don't. And I show you where to look, provide videos, etc.

Now I get this from you?

You make the most blatant lying claim, and then run when I ask for a source.

Priceless.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 8, 2011 - 11:43am PT
k-man,
In the 60's the Chicago Convention Center, a steel and concrete structure,
burned and collapsed. The fire started from a short circuit in a lamp in
the Home Show which spread to the carpet, etc.

The WTC had a bit better of a 'starter' - about 36 TONS of Jet A.
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 11:50am PT
I never ask you for link's K-Man. It's you who ask them from me. Google is your friend.

No one's running K-Man. Keep alert for the rest of the day. But of course, you will deny them.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 11:54am PT

 The Village Fool calls me an Idiot

 Dingus posts a quick, meaningless quip

 monolith dreams up more bumbling blather

 Riley comes up with a non sequitur


Boy, this is a day to remember!



But still, nobody dares to address the points that I continue to make.

There is a reason--To do so would be to admit that the OCT is a whitewash of the events of 9-11.



You can make up your own beliefs, but you cannot make up your own facts.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
I never ask you for link's K-Man.
- monolith, Sep 8, 2011 - 08:50am PT


Really, K-Man, you won't give us a link?
- monolith, Sept 4, 2011 - 8:01pm PT


Still waiting for that audio of the bombs
- monolith, Sept 7, 2011 - 10:26am PT


You don't have to look far to find a lie coming from monolith.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
Right on Dingus! I hear ya. Keep it real...
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
Good one K-Man.

And I never got the link, cuz it doesn't exist.

And since you chose to cut off the end of my request, I'll repeat it below:

Still waiting for that audio of bombs pulverizing the building during collapse.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 8, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
Look guys, you wouldn't need audio or video processing to detect the presence of explosions resulting from shaped charges capable of cutting the WTC exterior curtain walls - they would be way, way more than obvious. The audio of those explosions would both crack and boom through the audio and the pressure wave and debris ejection of the charges going off on the exterior walls would be a radical linear visual event and grossly distinguishable.

Again, neither would require any form of audio processing or video close-ups to detect. And all of the WTC videos show what happened that day - top down collapses of the towers, talks of charges in the basements is debunked by simply watching any of the videos you've posted.

Fools are easily fooled...

...is right and, as Dingus points out, the most telling aspect of any 9/11 discussion is the employment of the word 'believers' as a [futile and pathetic] leveling device.
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
That's why we ask for audio everytime they say the building was 'pulverized' and 'turned to dust' by bombs during the collapse. As you say Healy, it would be heard for miles.

Notice how K-Man cut off the end of my request above. It's a question they always dance around.
Homer

Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
Sep 8, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then maybe I should spend more time obsessing and arguing about it, instead of using the time to help my kids with their homework.

It makes me feel so bad to be such a sheeple.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
monolith, aren't you going to provide links to the outrageous claims you make? You know, about the FBI doing tests for explosives?

I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I never claimed to have an audio or video of bombs pulverizing the WTC buildings. So please stop asking me for things that I never claimed I have.

What I did claim was that MANY people witnessed, first-hand, explosions. And I can readily supply links to those videos *again*.


monolith, I've proven once that you fabricate lies. Unless you provide the source to the claim you made about the FBI explosion tests, I can make a solid conclusion that you are a habitual fabricator of lies.
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
And the tail chasing begins again.

Links to people hearing loud noises does not prove the building was 'pulvarized' and 'turned to dust' by bombs during the collapse when none of the many audio recordings show these massive explosions.

That's so funny you don't think the FBI did a criminal investigation of the steel at Fresh Kills.

Why would any link possibly convince you?
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Sep 8, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Sep 8, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/september-11-attacks/8750653/911-anniversary-114-audio-recordings-over-attacks-released.html

Newly released Audio tapes showing mass confusion among FAA and Air Defense.
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
Since you are in denial mode K-Man:

Watch this only if you still have room on your denial meter:

The Day The Illuminati Pushed Their Luck To Far..


I like the point where he says that if there is pulverized concrete present that you should not even bother looking at fire as a cause for the disaster. (By the way, that's from the National Standards Guide for investigating fires.)

Go back and look at the beginning of the failure of the WTC Towers. Do happen to see any pulverized concrete?



Take a look at the pictures of the WTC Towers as they begin to collapse. You see lots of pulverized concrete, even before there's any chance of it being created by floors smashing into themselves.

Another lie. The first signs of the collapse was the exterior collumns bowing inward.


Where's the audio of this concrete being pulverized?

And like I said, the concrete was in the floors. Do ya think the NWO put bombs in the floors?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
mono, I guess you see in this quote from me where I'm claiming to have audio of bombs pulverizing the concrete?

Please highlight the exact text.



Why would any link possibly convince you?


Now, who said this, and to what did it reference?
Oh, the irony.
GOclimb

Trad climber
Boston, MA
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
only on supertopo would a thread like this get 1200 posts.

GO
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
That's why I'm asking you for the audio, K-Man.

You are implying that bombs pulverized the concrete right?

Or are you one of those energy weapons guys?

Audio of the bombs pulverizing the concrete would convince just about everyone K-Man.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
The Wikipedia page RE Fresh Kills:

Post-9/11

After the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States, Fresh Kills was temporarily in use as a sorting ground for roughly one third of the rubble from Ground Zero. More than 1600 personal effects were retrieved during this time. About two million tons of material obtained from Ground Zero was taken to the landfill for sorting.[6] Thousands of detectives and forensic evidence specialists worked for over 1.7 million hours at Fresh Kills Landfill to try to recover remnants of the people killed in the attacks. A final count of 4,257 human remains were recovered, and from those, 300 people were identified. A memorial is being built to honor those that were not able to be identified in all of the debris from the attack.[7] The remaining debris was buried in a 40-acre (160,000 m2) portion of the landfill; it is highly likely that this debris still contains fragmentary human remains.[8]

Thanks for pointing that out monolith, certainly interesting and peregrinate.

Now about that FBI explosion tests, care to help me find a reference?

And Locker, I think your blue butt plug is restricting the blood flow to your brain--that's because your brain is apparently located in your a*#.
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
It's funny you are learning this now.

Really, you can't find what the FBI and BATF did at Fresh Kills beyond body recovery?

Did you know, that all the steel showing anything abnormal was sent to a hanger at JFK?

Don't ya think that steel with blast damage would be abnormal?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
Did you know, that all the steel showing anything abnormal was sent to a hanger at JFK?

All the steel showing anything abnormal, eh?

monolith, it seems you can't stop lying. Dude, you should really see somebody about that.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
I worked with the mentally ill for 7 years

it must've been good training for posting in this frickin place
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
That's hilarious K-Man. It's easily found.

Or are you saying the FBI and BATF was in on the conspiracy as well?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
I worked with the mentally ill for 7 years before I realized that a nut, is a nut, is a nut, no matter what counseling or medications were given...

Then I got frustrated and quit...

you forgot to add....
but i found that i missed it so i hang out here
......

:)
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
7-Year Itch needs a scratch!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
Fireman Eric Lawyer on his website has done a great job in pulling together the evidence in a logical manner and helping to summarize the findings . . .
http://firefightersfor911truth.org

Here is a great study he links too . . .


This work is dedicated to Chief of Department Peter J. Ganci Jr. and his 342 fellow F.D.N.Y. members killed in action while trying to save others Summary of Evidence of Controlled Demolition at the World Trade Center (Expansive citations below)
http://firefightersfor911truth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/revised2summary_of_evidence1.pdf


This is a 55 page study and has many sources and resources of evidence I have never seen before that are extremely eye-opening for any one that really is interested in knowing the truth of what happened on 9-11. A thorough job is done.


Once again we have the means, motive, and opportunity evidence.
We have the eye-witness evidence, the visual evidence, the audio evidence, and the physical evidence.

To dismiss any of this with ad hominem attacks and the wave of your hand, then you are a completely dishonest observer, and you have your head deeply buried in the sand of denial.

All of it together is an overwhelming body of evidence that invalidates the US government OCT. 9-11 did not happen the way we have been told it happened in the 9-11 Commission Report.


The truth is knowable if you want to know it.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:08pm PT

According to some, there are clearly explosions recorded a few fractions of a second before the building begins to collapse.

And according to some there weren't.

Regarding eyewitness. Why do you seem to ignore the eyewitness that saw the plane that crashed into pentagon? Some people saw a plane. Not a single person saw a missile.

Do someone except, klimmer, rokjox and probably k-man hear the explosions in the video klimmer posted? Rokjox, you seemed to just ignore my comment in regard to the timming of the supposed explosions. Why?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
I do not ignore the eye witnesses who saw a plane hit the Pentagon.

I am curious as to why the physical evidence does not match these eye-witness accounts, and that is why I would like for the Pentagon to release the videos that they have of the event.

There are surveillance cameras lining the side of the Pentagon that was hit. There are reports, and a subsequent FOIA request, of FBI agents confiscating tapes that might show what happened. Why are these secret?


In my Universe, a plane does not vaporize upon impact, yet still have enough inertia in the vaporized parts to carry on and make large, symmetric holes in thick concrete walls.

I guess I'm just a curious cat who doesn't swallow the explanation given to me.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
Locker! You mean to tell me you got sh#t for brains?



PS: Klimmer, a most excellent and civil post.

The only one who tries to equal your forthrightness on the Believer side is
Riley. Too bad his heavily slanted beliefs skew his ability to see objectively the things you have posted.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
From klimmers link

"Structural steel begins to melt at 1510 degrees Celsius (2750 degrees Fahrenheit)
and only if that temperature is maintained over a long period of time. Burning jet fuel
can only reach temperatures of 1120 degrees Celsius and decreases in temperature if
the fuel feeding it is being depleted (as was the case in the Twin Towers). Therefore,
the temperature from the burning jet fuel (commonly cited as the reason for
weakening the structure) could not possibly have melted the steel-reinforced
columns. "

Is it really that difficult to understand that steel don't need to melt to be weakend?


"‗The biggest and most obvious problem that I see is the
source of the enormous amount of very fine dust that we see
generated during the collapse... Where does the energy come
from to turn all this reinforced concrete into dust?‘‖ "

Is it possibly to even read this without starting to laugh? How stupid can a human be?

"Concrete and other building materials were literally reduced to
powder before hitting the ground, which is consistent only with
demolition. If a building collapses due to fire or other hazards,
concrete and other heavy materials are not reduced to powder."

Hahaha

Great comedy link Klimmer.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:25pm PT
Now Locker, you are making me laugh! Good thing, good buddy.


before you SWALLOW...

it's NOT your brain...

It's a piece of SH!T...



This is also kind of funny. The thing I'm referring to swallowing is the 9-11 Commission Report. And here, Locker's calling it a piece of sh#t.

Now that is funny...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
From klimmers link

"Structural steel begins to melt at 1510 degrees Celsius (2750 degrees Fahrenheit)
and only if that temperature is maintained over a long period of time. Burning jet fuel
can only reach temperatures of 1120 degrees Celsius and decreases in temperature if
the fuel feeding it is being depleted (as was the case in the Twin Towers). Therefore,
the temperature from the burning jet fuel (commonly cited as the reason for
weakening the structure) could not possibly have melted the steel-reinforced
columns. "

Is it really that difficult to understand that steel don't need to melt to be weakend?


"‗The biggest and most obvious problem that I see is the
source of the enormous amount of very fine dust that we see
generated during the collapse... Where does the energy come
from to turn all this reinforced concrete into dust?‘‖ "

Is it possibly to even read this without starting to laugh? How stupid can a human be?

"Concrete and other building materials were literally reduced to
powder before hitting the ground, which is consistent only with
demolition. If a building collapses due to fire or other hazards,
concrete and other heavy materials are not reduced to powder."

Hahaha

Great comedy link Klimmer.

the truly scary part is that klimmer teaches physics in high school....right klim?

i can see some of his 911 anniversary physics experiments now....on the plus side, his students probably have a gas learning BS from him.
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
Is it possibly to even read this without starting to laugh? How stupid can a human be?

They sure love their pulverized concrete don't they, Raymond?

They seem to forget about all the drywall too.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
who knows what he teaches....alien space craft physics, 911 conspiracy....yes, it would be fun....so long as impressionable students dont actually believe in all that stuff.

i am sure that he is a sincere guy, just terribly misguided.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:45pm PT

You are almost purely a political troll. Don't feel bad, I think of several here as mostly GOP B-team cheerleaders.

Do you remember and or understand anything you read? I am not sure that I have a single political post here on supertopo and you call me a political troll? GOP? I believe there are many "believers" that is definitely not republicans. Do you believe that believing in nutty theories is a question about politics?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
raymond,

for some reason RJ thinks if you believe (most of) the official version of 911 that you must also be a republican. i am sure that is out there in one of those truther web sites somewhere....
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
Mostly OT threads RockJox. Not that many political threads.

Nothing like all the political threads you are on RJ.

Sounds like you don't want to deal with the issues he brings up.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 04:02pm PT

I looked through your past posts, and almost all of them are on political/ot threads.

So what is my political views? Can you find them? All off topic threads is not about politics. I believe I have posted quite a lot about meteorology in the contrail thread. I also believe that I have posted quite a lot about global warming. No politics if I remember correctly.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
Why do building codes require structural steel girders to be fire-proofed?


Steel loses strength when heated sufficiently. The critical temperature of a steel member is the temperature at which it cannot safely support its load. Building codes and structural engineering standard practice defines different critical temperatures depending on the structural element type, configuration, orientation, and loading characteristics. The critical temperature is often considered the temperature at which its yield stress has been reduced to 60% of the room temperature yield stress.[6] In order to determine the fire resistance rating of a steel member, accepted calculations practice can be used,[7] or a fire test can be performed, the critical temperature of which is set by the standard accepted to the Authority Having Jurisdiction, such as a building code. In Japan, this is below 400°C. In China, Europe and North America (e.g., ASTM E-119), this is approximately 1000–1300F[8]. The time it takes for the steel element that is being tested to reach the temperature set by the test standard determines the duration of the fire-resistance rating. Heat transfer to the steel can be slowed by the use of fireproofing materials, thus limiting steel temperature. Common fireproofing methods for structural steel include intumescent, endothermic and plaster coatings as well as drywall, calcium silicate cladding, and mineral or high temperature insulation mineral wool blanket.
Concrete building structures often meet code required fire-resistance ratings, as the concrete thickness over the steel rebar provides sufficient fire resistance. However, concrete can be subject to spalling, particularly if it has an elevated moisture content. Although additional fireproofing is not often applied to concrete building structures, it is sometimes used in traffic tunnels and locations where a hydrocarbon fuel fire is more likely, as flammable liquid fires provides more heat to the structural element as compared to a fire involving ordinary combustibles during the same fire period. Structural steel fireproofing materials include intumescent, endothermic and plaster coatings as well as drywall, calcium silicate cladding, and mineral or high temperature insulation wool blankets. Attention is given to connections, as the thermal expansion of structural elements can compromise fire-resistance rated assemblies.


Seven-story John W. Bressmer Co. department store at 613 E. Adams in Springfield, Illinois. Burned on May 2, 1948.

Steel girders on the sixth floor of the Bressmer building lie in a heap, twisted by the intense heat of the fire.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
This page that Klimmer linked to is truly amazing:

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/revised2summary_of_evidence1.pdf

How can you folks deny the stuff that's in here, it's beyond me.


It brings tears to my eyes reading this. I simply don't understand how folks can honestly ignore these things. Do you read what the firemen were saying?? they died in the line of duty, and all you can do is throw f*#king names around.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 04:42pm PT

The two aircraft hit the towers at high speed and did considerable damage to principal structural components (core columns, floors, and perimeter columns) that were directly impacted by the aircraft or associated debris. However, the towers withstood the impacts and would have remained standing were it not for the dislodged insulation (fireproofing) and the subsequent multi-floor fires. The robustness of the perimeter frame-tube system and the large size of the buildings helped the towers withstand the impact. The structural system redistributed loads from places of aircraft impact, avoiding larger scale damage upon impact. The hat truss, a feature atop each tower which was intended to support a television antenna, prevented earlier collapse of the building core. In each tower, a different combination of impact damage and heat-weakened structural components contributed to the abrupt structural collapse.

In WTC 1, the fires weakened the core columns and caused the floors on the south side of the building to sag. The floors pulled the heated south perimeter columns inward, reducing their capacity to support the building above. Their neighboring columns quickly became overloaded as columns on the south wall buckled. The top section of the building tilted to the south and began its descent. The time from aircraft impact to collapse initiation was largely determined by how long it took for the fires to weaken the building core and to reach the south side of the building and weaken the perimeter columns and floors.

In WTC 2, the core was damaged severely at the southeast corner and was restrained by the east and south walls via the hat truss and the floors. The steady burning fires on the east side of the building caused the floors there to sag. The floors pulled the heated east perimeter columns inward, reducing their capacity to support the building above. Their neighboring columns quickly became overloaded as columns on the east wall buckled. The top section of the building tilted to the east and to the south and began its descent. The time from aircraft impact to collapse initiation was largely determined by the time for the fires to weaken the perimeter columns and floor assemblies on the east and the south sides of the building. WTC2 collapsed more quickly than WTC 1 because there was more aircraft damage to the building core, including one of the heavily loaded corner columns, and there were early and persistent fires on the east side of the building, where the aircraft had extensively dislodged insulation from the structural steel.

The WTC towers likely would not have collapsed under the combined effects of aircraft impact damage and the extensive, multi-floor fires that were encountered on September11, 2001, if the thermal insulation had not been widely dislodged or had been only minimally dislodged by aircraft impact.
In the absence of structural and insulation damage, a conventional fire substantially similar to or less intense than the fires encountered on September 11, 2001, likely would not have led to the collapse of a WTC tower.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
GC,

i particularly like this sentance.....

Asbestos contains fire, cannot burn and holds up after metal and glass have melted down, giving vital time for people to escape.

unfortunately, in the case of WTC, the steel members DID melt down and since that was the structure it fell. doesnt help much to have fireproof walls in a skyrise when your structure is suceptible to fire damage.

from wiki:
[edit] FireproofingIn April 1970, the New York City Department of Air Resources ordered contractors building the World Trade Center to stop the spraying of asbestos as an insulating material.[13]

Fireproofing was incorporated in the original construction and more was added after a fire in 1975 that spread to six floors before being extinguished. After the 1993 bombing, inspections found fireproofing to be deficient. The Port Authority was in the process of replacing it, but replacement had been completed on only 18 floors in 1 WTC, including all the floors affected by the aircraft impact and fires,[14] and on 13 floors in 2 WTC, although only three of these floors (77, 78, and 85) were directly affected by the aircraft impact.[15][note 2] and that the fireproofing was being replaced due to its asbestos content, in fact the builders had been informed of a proposed ban on using asbestos/vermiculite fireproofing during construction and had ceased using it.

nowadays, we use cementicious and intumescent firecoatings on large steel structures. We also tend to coat more of the members (in some instances ALL).
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 05:37pm PT
Debunked many times now Rox. Furlong mixed up 'record start time' with 'event time'. Now he's a debunker. You boyz sure cling to your bombs in the basement theory.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
rox is not on today. i think he was sad to have to evict some folks. he may come of as having no heart but inside he is probably a kind, sensitive human being. plus i thought we debuinked that siesmograph like two years ago?
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
We did. They keep chasing their tails.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 8, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
This page that Klimmer linked to is truly amazing:

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/revised2summary_of_evidence1.pdf

How can you folks deny the stuff that's in here, it's beyond me.


It brings tears to my eyes reading this. I simply don't understand how folks can honestly ignore these things. Do you read what the firemen were saying?? they died in the line of duty, and all you can do is throw f*#king names around.


Kman,

Bingo. You really can't ignore all the evidence if you're truly an honest observer and researcher.

Unfortunately, we have a platoon of dishonest observers and OCT believers and Truth debunkers here at ST. All they do all day every day is name call and support the full US gov OCT completely no matter what. No matter that it has been invalidated from all directions with overwhelming evidence. Like others have said, you truly have to be nuts to really believe Uncle Sam's OCT. I mean really nuts.

That pdf study is really good. I'm going to try to work my way through all the links. Hopefully, not too many have changed.

The personal eye-witness testimonies with their names, these are professionals, and with their professional observations on site, their testiomony is beyond dispute. Really. And there is more than enough visual, audio, and physical evidence to back them up. The evidence that 9-11 was LIHOP and MIHOP is overwhelming. Bold lies continiously. And the willful denial to continue to believe it, is just really unbelievable in addition.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 8, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
I don't believe anything,

Dingus,

Really? C'mon.

You don't even believe the truth?

You do believe in something, whatever it is.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
How do they keep the next glass box in the sky from collapsing... that is one of the great lingering questions of this whole thing, yes?


that is some stuff i dont know. but you are corrent in surmising with regards to inadequate fire protection design for WTC. I do not think that all the critical members were protected. also, keep in mind that todays computational tools for structures is so far beyond what was even available 25 years ago that structure analysis has taken on a whole new meaning and we can determine the impacts of fires/fire protections, etc. much better than we could BITD.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
klimmer,
you seem a decent guy, but those aliens have been talkin at you to much buddy....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
The B-25 that hit the Empire State Building weighed 1/10 of a 767 and carried less than 1/10 the amount of fuel and hit at about 1/4 the speed.
I bet the outcome would have been similar had a 767 hit it at Mach .82.
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:04pm PT
Dingus is talking about the new WTC. I saw the same show last night. Pretty amazing. A new type of concrete with just rebar, no large steel trusses in the core, to make a building 1776 feet high. There is a glass curtain around the base.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
Why do you guys, you "OCT believers/Truth Debunkers" always try to change the arguement? Do you all have adult ADD? Stay on topic.

Who in this thread cares about Aliens/UFOs? That isn't the arguement or topic at hand. Start another thread.

Just another ad hominem attack and distractive technique.

By the way, wouldn't it be better just to assign a number to each of your continual ad hominem/distractive attacks from your "Handbook for Idiots" just to save time?


Example:

#7 = Attack the opponent on their thoughts, beliefs, interest or whatever regarding aliens/ufos, regardless of the fact that it has no bearing on the current arguement. Slam them and change the subject all at the same time. You get a twoofer using this one. Swwweeeeeeeeeeetttttt. He-he-he-he.



See all you would have to type is . . .


"7"
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
^^5150^^

Why don't you assign a code to 'pulverized concrete' and 'bombs in the basement'?
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:16pm PT

Clearly ambiguous in this context.

Though the NWO believers seem to be more emotional, and more prone to employing emotional arguments, than the OCT believers, fwiw.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
This is why I call them idiots, no good brain.

Then the moron says leave the country.

The moron idiot doesn't even know what country he's in to begin with.

All mental speculator moron idiots googling themselves stupid because they can't read nor think.

To many SuperStupid sheep here like that moron cintune ....
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
This thread is level 5.

In order to solve problem one must go level 6 and transcend all other levels.

911 was level 666 ..................
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:34pm PT
Dingus is talking about the new WTC. I saw the same show last night. Pretty amazing. A new type of concrete with just rebar, no large steel trusses in the core, to make a building 1776 feet high. There is a glass curtain around the base.

yeah i saw part of that show too. larger staircases for emergency egress as well within that concrete structure. i thik that they said it should withstand the blast from a truck bomb too.

through the history of engineering it should be obvious (and a great understatement) to say that engineers are not infallible. and the design/construct of the WTC was a landmark acheivement for its time. but alas, it was not constructed to withstand the hit from a jet airliner and the subsequent conflageration.

WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
Just remember guys like monolith doesn't know sh'it.

He believes the official version and Googles to support that hypotheses.

In the end it's still only theory and hypothesis and not the actual truth.

Just the same for the other side of the fence.

There's guys around that know the real deal independent of those sides ......
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
You asked for numbers, Klimmer. Here you go. Please respond to each.

666, 3400 1385 8549 9024 6643 8766 9164 3941 4556 8004 5442 7709 1847 9430 3621 2919 7865 1189 1073 7054 5553 9478 6992 6962 9920 9827 1754 7807 8738 1872 2061 7414 8922 877 139 5620 5063 8425 3666 6454 6518 2961 9499 2709 7853 9788 3410 2870 8261 1408 521 3601 2766 9910 9512 6116 9311 8596 4007 9875 8418 9970 6544 5200 7148 5314 2614 8059 6397 3613 439 8694 6179 4233 9787 1881 4191 441 2353 3522 4827 3145 8540 5914 3897 1185 4732 3112 7462 795 1369 2209 6357 8006 9791 3753 2607 5127 8519 7289 5131 9109 6764 7786 8744 1860 2065 2792 1093 2573 5679 7716 5827 4203 9590 5459 398 2300 6063 373 3155 130 9725 8029 3485 4184 577 4140 6886 9082 6216 862 5792 6748 9248 9211 1648 26 6057 4731 6373 7377 8791 860 8270 6940 5770 9664 6084 1706 8773 4584 4319 3501 7475 1783 3915 4496 1068 201 8546 9895 4311 3164 5171 4729 2540 4911 8230 9995 1566 6880 3271 9182 9046 4948 3951 1921 4487 9687 8950 5748 4132 5188 4506 9734 8959 9877 5826 9781 2780 5447 916 7921 4673 6913 920 7979 6981 1245 2112 9879 6579 6943 3277 3576 3552 6798 9522 7950 5681 5878 2798 3244 2777 1503 1785 1315 2768 7594 7008 2566 811 5273 322 9890 9159 985 1039 8991 3946 8048 8430 5862 4605 2420 998 9801 3389 3135 2857 1695 799 6064 9014 1651 5299 4129 7755 4695 4767 8167 1454 2263 3327 9909 2905 1157 8019 3267 8799 79 5731 4257 9534 3439 5803 8715 743 7205 5619 2126 39 5814 6027 4151 3550 8148 9999 2545 960 2181 9460 6372 3122 1976 7352 8619 4696 3460 4612 7988 602 5773 8910 5592 268 9302 9912 378 198 8414 7845 2750 5637 5253 9712 5791 7894 244 3165 4929 9865 989 8104 1376 2741 4809 5782 6667 9501 6338 3915 9629 6321 2193 3766 371 5449 7250 1093 8164 6561 5976 6112 8856 3221 4400 5038 3892 4537 5413 8318 789 6211 30 5298 9368 6595 2039 6489 7394 9368 7777 9957 2337 6583 3714 3618 720 6382 3576 5303 4446 7237 2323 3510 451 9918 1539 2735 2337 5586 3996 6382 5424 6795 9552 511 248 7462 4820 1522 8065 4498 8024 4383 312 4516 4932 4729 6764 9674 6388 4268 417 3679 3988 6332 2087 4545 5164 7816 405 3117 6815 1071 9971 7528 8509 7618 7169 8216 9218 7476 3214 7212 6500 7748 5263 1928 5997 678 8237 8376 1612 2633 4175 4199 9427 9050 7394 3890 9456 9388 2273 7033 3410 1316 7531 6447 4852 1205 1681 5252 7993 5322 5142 7230 1946 2747 6925 6757 5785 8022 7417 9464 3428 892 1142 6628 7141 6633 1038 7049 9379 9377 4794 3628 7996 7226 736 8161 5334 6518 7970 9883 5268 6209 6146 6935 5341 8391 234 4215 3870 8689 6320 893 9183 7192 5253 2384 5723 9660 6827 2197 7641 4121 3179
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
GC,

not to be too critical or anything but didnt you forget a bunch of codes?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
There's guys around that know the real deal independent of those sides ......

Werner knows because him and his team of rogue operatives masterminded the 9/11 plot in the same tent cabin they used to fake the moon landings and plot the Kennedy assassination.



^^^^
This is a conspiracy theory.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
GC,

not to be too critical or anything but didnt you forget a bunch of codes?

I thought I should stop at 501. I didn't want to overwhelm Klimmer. He has high school students to teach.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
this is the same place that they all teamed up with the WOS boys to "fake" the sh#t stained ropes and grief right? it was all a plot to up the threadcount for a yet to be developed website called ST so taht advert $ would rise....those guys are sly....prove that this is not what happened werner...
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
Here's something to fuel the super nano-thermite fire, anyway:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Archive/Lucerne_yields_up_explosive_secrets.html

Residents of a quiet area of Lucerne were shocked recently to find that explosives had been buried beneath their streets.
They were planted there by the Swiss army because the road was judged strategically important; in the event of invasion it would have been blown up..... the Lucerne example is not unusual. There are in fact hundreds of strategic roads, tunnels and bridges in Switzerland which conceal permanent stores of explosives.

So, hey, sure, maybe, right? It would sure add a new facet to the big picture of the post-Cold War legacy.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
Watch this only if you still have room on your denial meter:

The Day The Illuminati Pushed Their Luck To Far..

You dissing the Illuminati, k-man?

You feel lucky, punk? Well, do you?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
we have motive (increased $), no named shitters, and a few old manky bolts down a slab that could have been placed on rappel in the middle of the nite. a book deal, villains, its got it all....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 8, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
Hawkeye, where's the sex?? You know, no good story goes on without it.


Now, did you count 5 shots, or 6.


Klimmer, the number 7 thing, Hey, I know that joke!


Says the newbie:

"Hahahahah, OK, I got one:

Number 15....

Hey, why isn't anybody laughing??"

"Because you blew the punchline."
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Sep 8, 2011 - 07:07pm PT
unlucky post 1300
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
It withstood the impact.

They didn't have computers to model fires in highrises in the 60's Rox.

Leslie Robertson, structural engineer designer of WTC, didn't have much confidence his building would survive the fire:

I can tell you I was just thinking about the people in the building. I mean I just hoped that the buildings would stand I had no way of knowing that they would or would not.
monolith

climber
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
Not to model fires in a highrise. Imagine how many cards and tapes that would take.

Simulations involve way more data and computation power then putting a few numbers into a trajectory equation.

I'll go with Leslie Robertson, Rox. He was not sure the building would stand when he watched them burn.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
What a PERFECT example of doublethink, the ability to totally ignore a fact and spew complete bullshit 10 seconds after a absolutely opposite fact has been presented.


Hawkeye, you are SO full of shit! you ain't never been close to my idea of a fine mind, but you are f*#king up even YOUR reputation.

"IT" was PRECISELY and EXACTLY "...constructed to withstand the hit from a jet airliner and the subsequent conflagration ..."

No it wasn't. Because it didn't. They TRIED To construct it to withstand that, but they failed. As Hawkeye said in the same post, engineers are not infallible.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:11pm PT

Is this movie about Klimmer?

What part does Cameron Diaz play?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
rox

...but alas, it was not constructed to withstand the hit from a jet airliner and the subsequent conflagration


sounds like a trying day for you. did you read the bold above? and my previous post below?

GC,

i particularly like this sentance.....


Asbestos contains fire, cannot burn and holds up after metal and glass have melted down, giving vital time for people to escape.

unfortunately, in the case of WTC, the steel members DID melt down and since that was the structure it fell. doesnt help much to have fireproof walls in a skyrise when your structure is suceptible to fire damage.

from wiki:

[edit] FireproofingIn April 1970, the New York City Department of Air Resources ordered contractors building the World Trade Center to stop the spraying of asbestos as an insulating material.[13]

Fireproofing was incorporated in the original construction and more was added after a fire in 1975 that spread to six floors before being extinguished. After the 1993 bombing, inspections found fireproofing to be deficient. The Port Authority was in the process of replacing it, but replacement had been completed on only 18 floors in 1 WTC, including all the floors affected by the aircraft impact and fires,[14] and on 13 floors in 2 WTC, although only three of these floors (77, 78, and 85) were directly affected by the aircraft impact.[15][note 2] and that the fireproofing was being replaced due to its asbestos content, in fact the builders had been informed of a proposed ban on using asbestos/vermiculite fireproofing during construction and had ceased using it.


nowadays, we use cementicious and intumescent firecoatings on large steel structures. We also tend to coat more of the members (in some instances ALL).

fact: steel strucure design for high rises has changed since 911 (at least if you want the building to stand). i have a strutural guy who works for me with the NIST reports on his desk as well as a whole bunch of other reports and lessons learned from 911 and WTC.

your comments about computers in the early 70's versus today are hilarious. the programs available today, for structures so far exceed what was available then it is not funny. but keep in mind that computers are just a tool and can be as misused as your mouth.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:13pm PT

No, that can't be Klimmer. Must be about some other bad teacher.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
but keep in mind that computers are just a tool and can be as misused as your mouth.

Or your keyboard.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
is klimmer blonde too?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:16pm PT
Forget about the Pentagon. We need more pictures of THIS "bad teacher."





graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:16pm PT
is klimmer blonde too?

Metaphorically maybe?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
And the software/performance to perform recursive iterations of tables that was required to model heat transfer and all the rest.

rox,
sadly, i have forgotten more heat transfer than you ever thought possible about learning.

while in grad school i did a calc on my PC that was very simple. i started it up in the morning, went skiing, had dinner, and it was still not done. that was early 80's vintage and was nowhere near complex enough to model anything resembling what would be required for WTC getting hit by an airliner filled with fuel.

do you have another rental property that you can evict someone from? seems to put you in rare form.

edit:

now this thread is headed in hte right direction.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
The structural modeling for the WTC was done on an IBM 1620



The IBM 1620 was announced by IBM on October 21, 1959, and marketed as an inexpensive "scientific computer". After a total production of about two thousand machines, it was withdrawn on November 19, 1970.



It came in two models, most obviously identified by the typewriter used as the console I/O device, in three memory sizes: 20,000, 40,000 or 60,000 decimal digits of core memory. Not "K", not bytes. This was a decimal machine, not binary. Memory was organized in 6 bit "positions", 4 bits for a decimal digit, a "check" bit, and a "flag" bit. Core memory of magnetized ferrite beads was inherently non-volatile! It did not have a fixed word length. It did not have addressable registers, all operands were in core memory. (Add two 100 digit numbers? Sure, one instruction.) The design was called "CADET" (can't add, doesn't even try). Arithmetic was done by table look-up. The Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code, BCD, used by external devices, the Model 026 keypunch for example, only defined one set of upper case letters, 10 digits, some punctuation, and a few special characters. (Oh, so THAT's why these old timers keep shouting in their e-Mail!) It's amazing how little you need to make a computer if you're ingenious enough.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
nice try rox,

graduate level heat transfer is all pretty much partial differential equations. and most of those are what we call steady-state.

throw time (unsteady) into the mix and they get rather complicated. and this is what you would be doing so as to determine how fast a steel member would reach a point at which the strength was unsatisfactory.

i am sure that there are multiple ways to set the equation up and or model the effects of heat on the steel members and the composite structure and frankly, i have forgotten most of that stuff.

note that any discussion about heat and members alongside the above pictures is purely coincidental...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Sep 8, 2011 - 09:19pm PT
could it happen again?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/08/terrorism.threat/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
I like how all these people here in this thread were in the towers watching the steel getting hot and starting to fail.

Oh wait ... they weren't there.

They just modeled and simulated it on the computer.

Just see!

What rascals, .... and the sheep buy it from these rascals happily eating this grass getting fat for their slaughterhouse of their souls .....

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 8, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
yeah werner, but we werent there last time you took a sh#t either but my money is on the fact that i did not want to be there either.

thanks for your concern though.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:29am PT
What rascals, .... and the sheep buy it from these rascals happily eating this grass getting fat for their slaughterhouse of their souls .....

Don't get so upset.

Just repeat this a few times and you will feel better.


Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare

raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:32am PT
Rokjox, the most clueless person in the world? The computer stuff lately in the thread is just hilarious.

You need "quite a lot" of computer power to make and run a structural model of a skyscraper that is able to model the hit of an airplane.

Klimmer, cant you explain to me the full issue with the pulverized concrete that was find in your link?

Sorry for the political post.


Wasn't nothing wrong with writing in Assembler, it was bloody efficient. It just took trained programmers. Half of the computer power used today is just to run the overhead. And to coddle the programmers. And programs come out all slow and badly written and inefficient as a result. Heat is a second semester class as I recall, not all that deep into the math...

It is strange that the modeling I do get faster for every new computer I am using. Why did the use large super computers when for example forecasting the weather when all they had to do is to write a little assembly and run the code on a computer from the seventies?

I wounder how long time it would take to write a simulation program from scratch in assembly that would in detail simulate a plane crashing into the wtc towers.

cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:10am PT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:26am PT
This is part of the delusion of The Truthers. ...

[They] would have you believe German, Spanish, French and English terror cells around the world were also invented as part of the conspiring I guess.


It is the delusion of The Believers that The Truthers are putting forth any claims as to who did what on 9-11.

"The Truthers believe this ..."

"The Truthers believe that ..."


I have news for you, this is what The Truthers believe: The Official Conspiracy Theory is flawed, the 9-11 Commission Report is a whitewash of the actual events that occurred.

Truthers make no attempt to determine why, or to imply by whom.

However, The Truthers *do* know, via established empirical evidence, that a series of observable events took place, and these events can be analyzed.

So Riley and others, don't put words into The Truthers mouths, it just proves that you don't read what we have to say.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:45am PT
The gov't pulled this off but they couldn't manage to plant one measly little bit of WMD evidence in Iraq after they'd invaded with the super-secret black ops CIA guys? Just one little suspicious centrifuge part or a little vial of Anthrax would've done the trick!


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:47am PT
cleo, please back up and read, and try to comprehend, what I just wrote. Apparently it went way over your head.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:47am PT
Right, thanks for the insults!!!

But all of these groups are complicit: the FAA, CIA, NORAD, FBI, NIST, the 911 commission, the Pentagon, United Airlines, American Airlines, thousands of civil engineers, structural engineers, explosive engineers, fire engineers, building commissioners and inspectors in the 1970s... why, the payroll for keeping one's mouth shut over the mass murder must be *huge*!

but, hey, we have NO IDEA who they are working for. Could be the Circus!

Right. That's a new assertion. Nice.


WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2011 - 10:56am PT
Level 5 thread.

cleo posts insult then cries she's been insulted.

You people are screwed up ....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:58am PT
cleo, you think that what you wrote wasn't an insult? Please.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:07am PT

I have news for you, this is what The Truthers believe: The Official Conspiracy Theory is flawed, the 9-11 Commission Report is a whitewash of the actual events that occurred.

Truthers make no attempt to determine why, or to imply by whom.

I doubt that all truthers would agree with this and most in your post. To me it seems like there are a lot of different theories around about what happened and truthers also trying to disprove other truthers theories.

It is of course possibly that I don't know what you mean with a truther.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:08am PT
Wow, the lengths you folks will go to to avoid looking at the evidence!




How about this set of facts:

BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER: "Battalion Seven. Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor, numerous 10-45 Code Ones." (―10-45 Code Ones‖ is referential to dead bodies)

It is extremely noteworthy that the radio transmissions of Battalion 7 Chief Orio Palmer and the radio responses to it literally occurred only seconds prior to the total collapse in WTC 2. According to the official U.S. government explanation, at that moment there should have been massive structural failings at that section of the building at that time. Therefore, according to the official version, the firefighters should have been rushing, panic-struck, to evacuate anyone that they could and as rapidly as they could, including themselves. Yet they are not doing so. What they are doing at that moment, in reality, is calmly and professionally preparing to move up to floor 79 to rescue more people.

Below are their transmissions from moments before the collapse:

LADDER 15: "Chief, what stair you in?"

BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER: "South stairway Adam, South Tower."

LADDER 15: "Floor 78?"

BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER: "Ten-four. Numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here."

BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER: "Tower one. Battalion Seven to Ladder 15.

LADDER 15: "Fifteen."

BATTALION 7 CHIEF ORIO PALMER: "I‘m going to need two of your firefighters Adam stairway to knock down two fires. We have a house line stretched, we could use some water on it, knock it down, 'kay?'


Just some more facts for The Believers to ignore, deny, and lie about.
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:13am PT
Funny thing about fires K-Man. The edges of them are not as intense as the core.

Do ya think the firemen coming across the first floor on fire could tell what was happening in the rest of the building?
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:20am PT
Do ya think Palmer could see thru floors and smoke?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:23am PT
raymond, there are a lot of folks who don't believe the OCT and will say all sorts of things, including creating massive conspiracy theories that somehow explain the events of 9-11.

However, there are many "official" sites that seek the truth behind 9-11. These sites take an objective look at the evidence and, in doing so, prove that the 9-11 Commission Report and the subsequent NIST report are flawed and do not take all the evidence into account in their investigations.

The "official" Truther movement wants an open and honest investigation into the 9-11 events. An investigation that takes into accounts things such as:

- The testimony Mineta gave under oath
- The explosions in the WTC building that were reported by so many people, with many pictures showing photographic evidence, radio transmissions, and such
- The mysterious Pentagon event, where photos of the impact zone show no evidence of a plane hitting the building


Any person with the ability to objectively look at the evidence can easily conclude that the 9-11 Commission Report is a fraud. The people involved with Truth movement don't want to live with that fraud.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:26am PT
Oh, it's my lying buddy monolith again.

Here, read this s l o w l y, maybe you can understand the words if you take the time:

According to the official U.S. government explanation, at that moment there should have been massive structural failings at that section of the building at that time.

Do you think a professional fireman knows much about structural fires?
Like, maybe a bit more than you, mono?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:36am PT
And now comes Locker. Ready to insult, but unable to say a single thing of sustenance. Great for comedy relief. But cut the insults, bro, unless you actually have something to add.
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:40am PT
Relax K-Man. Locker is hilarious. I thought he was making fun of me and I stlll got a laugh.

According to the official U.S. government explanation, at that moment there should have been massive structural failings at that section of the building at that time.

Standard K-Man BS.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:44am PT
Maybe I shouldn't have taken it personally when Locker called me an idiot in bold letters.


And why is that BS monolith?
Do I now need to quote to you the 9-11 Commission Report?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:46am PT
Maybe I shouldn't have taken it personally when he called me an idiot in bold letters.

You say you want the truth? You can't handle the truth!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:51am PT
But all of these groups are complicit: the FAA, CIA, NORAD, FBI, NIST, the 911 commission, the Pentagon, United Airlines, American Airlines, thousands of civil engineers, structural engineers, explosive engineers, fire engineers, building commissioners and inspectors in the 1970s... why, the payroll for keeping one's mouth shut over the mass murder must be *huge*!

Don't forget all the janitors and groundsmen in the WTC, and all the passengers on the planes.

It's a HUUUUUGGGE Conspiracy!

Call it The Conspiracy of the Sane

All sane people are conspiring against crazy people everywhere.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 9, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
Know when to say when. Or is that wen?

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
I find it odd, Riley, that you admit above that the 9-11 Commission Report was a CYA whitewash of events, yet you still defend it to the core.

Can you explain to me your seemingly double standard on this.



In the report linked to below, we have page after page of firefighters giving accounts about their first-hand experience of hearing/seeing explosions in the WTC buildings. Yeah really, check out pages 13-19 of the following file, it's pretty incredible, it even gives the names of the firefighters quoted (this stuff had to be obtained through a FOIA request):


http://firefightersfor911truth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/revised2summary_of_evidence1.pdf


"Firefighter Louie Cacchioli stated: My story was never mentioned in the final report and I felt like I was being put on trial in a court room. I finally walked out. They were trying to twist my words and make the story fit only what they wanted to hear. All I wanted to do was tell the truth and when they wouldn't let me do that, I walked out.... It was a disgrace to everyone, the victims and the family members who lost loved ones. I don't agree with the 9/11 Commission. The whole experience was terrible."





Later in the report, accounts of people knowing that WTC 7 was going to be brought down.


Yet y'all will turn a blind eye to it so that you can believe the Gov't wouldn't actually lie to you. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.




And Locker, to me you're just the Village Fool. But when you start insulting folks, you should have something to back up the insults.

But I guess a fool doesn't need to be anything but a fool.



One more time, I'm gonna try to do more productive things. However, if anybody wants to discuss the facts and evidence, I'd be happy to.


[Que: Riley posting something that has noting to do with any of this.]
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
Dingus, you're the man who makes me LOVE umbrellas.

And yes, there's really nothing we can do about 9-11, except to let it be known we don't buy their crap. I suppose we'll have to live with it, because I don't expect there will ever be a real investigation. The damage has been done, move on and live with it.

However, hopefully if folks look at this stuff and see the extent of what happened on that day, maybe next time we'll be able to say, as you have, "Fooled me once..."


BTW, evidence of explosions in the WTC buildings is not conspiracy stuff. It's is factual evidence.

After reading about WTC 7, I have to wonder about Rox's musings regarding the EOL'ing of buildings...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
ok k-man,

lets try for a moment and question everything, all aspects.

why is it that there are no respected journalists writing books about this with unrefuted evidence (as many truthers on this thread claims exists)? why is it that there are no "insiders" speaking out about a potential inside job? what is the government hiding? did the government willingly take the lives of their citizens to promote more power for the military-industrial complex? what was the motivation for 911 if it were done by our own government?

you ever been in a traffic accident? two cars. frequently two different stories between drivers. what one is correct? now extrapolate that to the scale of 911. thousands of people, each with their own perspective. some with axes to grind. some wanting something out of it as there is no way to simply accept ones testimony without an understading of what is motivating that person. of course there will be discrepancies.

if all your questions were tidied up and wrapped up with a bow with no dissenting opinions on the official version then that is when you ought to worry...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
Power was down in SoCal last night as I'm sure you all have heard.




The OCT Believers/Truth Debunkers can't get out from under all the overwhelming weight of evidence that the US gov's OCT as documented by the 9-11 (Ommission) Commission Report is invalidated and is a complete white-wash designed and written to support the OCT completely and to find no one at fault, they just made mistakes. Ooooopppppssssiiiiieeeee. US gov version of "MyBad!!??" So OCT Believers just continue ad hominem attacks and constant distraction. They have nothing but ridicule. Sorry that doesn't pass in intellectual debate. You have nothing. The OCT is absolutely riddled with massive holes. It does not stand up considering all the evidence and you know it. So all you can do is attempt to poke fun, ridicule, change topic, and distract. That is all you have. You have nothing.

Sorry, but all of that doo-doo you constantly hurl is like water off a ducks back. It doesn't stick.




What we know:

* "Spies Knew" and had very specific for-knowledge of the 9-11 targets. The WH was warned literally nearly 70 times or so.

* Many US government agencies practiced a 9-11 like scenario using aircraft including The Pentagon.

* Condi Rice, "We never imagined they would use aircraft like missiles, blah-blah-blah . . ." That is 100% USDA Bull dung.

* NORAD stood down on 9-11-2001 and they were told to stand down.

* Regulations had been changed to take shoot-down orders out of the chain of command and authority of NORAD and into the hands of the White House just months before 9-11-2001.

* Within just a few days of 9-11-2001 the US gov had the OCT fully figured out with passports found of some of the Saudi Arabia Islamic hijackers from the crashed jets. Wow, very little aircraft remains, jets vaporized, passengers vaporized, yet those passports, a red bandanna and a few other pieces of evidence made it through those massive fire-balls of jet fuel fully intact without burns. And then they just so happened to find them. Man, talk about miracles. How convenient. How unbelievably convenient.

* Also, the 9-11 hijackers couldn't fly a small plane, how could they fly large commercial jets that are far more complex and then guide them into their targets like ace fighter pilots? And then do so also beyond the designed physical parameters of these jets? How could they do that?

* Mineta's 9-11 Commission under oath testimony of VP Dick Cheney reaffirming the stand down order that Mineta personally witnessed with a military personnel in the WH bunker as the jet (or craft or whatever it was) approached The Pentagon. 30 miles out, 20 miles out, 10 miles out . . . Do the orders still stand? etc. etc. Then this testimony was purposefully left out of the finished 9-11 Commission Report that was published.

* On 9-11-2001 our US military and other agencies were involved in 15 + simulated war games. Geeee, how did Osama Bin Laden get so lucky? How did he know?

* They used box-cutter knives!!! Who here wouldn't fight to get a dang box-cutter knife from some jerk who is brandishing it? C'mon. Do you think a box-cutter knife is going to make a commercial airline pilot give over his aircraft? I laugh.

* Impossible cell phone calls that never made contact . . . yet family members were contacted. How did that happen? More miracles.

* In the WTC towers all 3 that fell, all 3 had (WTC tower #1 and #2, and #7) explosives in the bottom basements as testified by eye-witnesses. Both WTC towers #1 and #2 had these explosives go off prior to the jets hitting them. Eye witness evidnce validate this. Seismic evidence validates this also.

* Prior to collapse all 3 towers had eye-witnesses testify to the fact that they saw, heard, and experienced explosives. Then at the initiation of the collapse and during the collapse of the towers again they saw, heard, and experienced explosives: boom-boom-boom-boom-boom etc. etc. etc. all the way to the ground. There are hundreds of professional first responder eye-witness testimonies taken officially of these experiences, not to mention thousands of lay people on the street who also experienced these explosions. The MSM at the very beginning did indeed report these explosions, but soon we wouldn't ever see them televised again. The only reason we know of these braodcasts are because of free video posting sites like youtube and others where people have posted them.

* WE have the visual, audio, physical experience of eye-witnesses, and the physical empirical evidence of explosives at all 3 WTC tower sites, yet NIST did not ever test for explosives and has refused to do so.

* Massive I-beams between 4 - 20 tonnes were thrown in classic "projectile motion" from the demolitioned towers 100s of meters from the buildings. You can see all the visual evidence of this in countless films of the actual demolitioned WTC towers as they fell. Sorry that just doesn't happen with buildings that just simply fall and collapse only under the force of gravity. Where is all the energy coming from to project these massive beams up-over-and out in classic projectile motion from the simple force of gravity? It can't happen. Once again to believe the OCT you have to violate laws of physics.

* Onto the Pentagon . . . (I'll come back to it)
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
klimmer,

you have so many things that are wrong in this post that it takes too long to point out.

as a side note however, and seriously, i feel very sorry for you buddy. i really do. you have my deepest sympathy as at must be difficult to live life in your shoes with your mental capacity. i wish you the best.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:28pm PT

Computer hardware and architecture has improved tremendously, mostly due to being able to etch smaller and smaller circuits using less power. But software is nowhere as advanced, and I think most of what is written is short term useful, bloated crap that depends on the faster and faster architecture to make them look decent. Programmers today can't write efficient code on a dare. Its all about the look, and damn little about the application.

I just get the impression that you have never used or seen for example a modern FEM solver or CFD program? Do you talk about the latest version of word or something like that?

The programmers might be bad today. I really don't know but I know that we can do much more complicated and much larger analysis today with the help of computers compared to what we could do in the sixties. The reasons is better computers, better knowledge and better numerical methods.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
C'mon HE, point it out. Where is it wrong specifically.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
I am still interested in the claims about the pulverized concrete. Why do every just ignore that?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
klimmer,

why the coverup? what was the motivation? what was to be gained? how to control the XXX Top Secret XXX plans on such a massive scale that required multiple government agencies involvement and probably hundreds of people.

who flew the jets into the WTC? i hope you are not disputing that happened?
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
Massive I-beams between 4 - 20 tonnes were thrown in classic "projectile motion" from the demolitioned towers 100s of meters from the buildings

Klimmer, where's the audio of explosives so powerful they can throw 20 ton I-beams hundreds of meters. Not even standard demo does that and they are loud.

It's one of the most recorded events in history, yet nada.

I'll start your tail chasing below, Klimmer:

But we have reports of explosions...

And what happened to all this 'they collapsed into their footprints' bullsh#t? How can I-Beams be thrown hundreds of meters, yet still land in the building footprint?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
dont worry mono,

those explosion tapes will be edited into existing film clips then distributed on truther web sites and surface here in a few days....it will sound like a large fart.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
I notice you folks conveniently ignore the firefighter accounts that I pointed to. Even gave the page numbers in the report.

Why is that?? Why not address these facts and evidence, instead of making up your own, that you then debunk.
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:41pm PT
^^Too much Truther bullsh#t, too little time.^^

And I already addressed your Palmer quote. No man can see thru floors.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
I am still interested in the claims about the pulverized concrete. Why do every just ignore that?





Nearly 55 mins. of CBS footage that has been released. This is intense footage to watch.

If you want pulverized concrete dust a plenty here you go . . . ankle thick even . . .


NIST FOIA: Raw CBS 9/11 WTC Footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp2SC_aduTA&feature=related
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
Yippee, Pulverized concrete again.

Do ya think all that drywall would help make billowy dust Klimmer?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
and pulverized concrete proves what???

you are really grasping at dust particles klimmer if you think that supports explosions....if your scientific method that you use is indicative of these threads then i respectfully must inform you that you are full of $hit and don't know what you are talking about. i dont mean that as an insult, i really fricking mean that.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
It isn't just concrete. No one ever said it is only concrete. A great deal of it is.

The concrete within the dust is indeed pulverized. Are you disagreeing with that?




Edit:

Once again ladies and gentleman you have to look at all the evidence, you can't cherry pick and ignore any of it. There is only one explaintion that fits all the evidence and that is explosives/controlled demolition . . .

* Eye-witness testimony of explosives prior to the impact of the jets, after the jets collided with the towers but before the towers collapse, and then immediately just before collapse and then during the entire collapse.

* Visual video evidence, audio evidence, and physical empirical evidence of explosives within 9-11-2001 dust.

* The entire physics of the witnessed collapse of all 3 towers does indeed point to explosives/controlled demolition. It could not happen only due to aviation fuel and office furniture fires, and the force of gravity alone.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
mono, I am talking about the 6 pages of quotes from firefighters reporting explosions. How come everybody ignores these, but then makes up their own BS, which they then debunk (it's called a strawman).

And your Palmer debunking is about 2nd-grade level.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:52pm PT

Nearly 55 mins. of CBS footage that has been released. This is intense footage to watch.

If you want pulverized concrete dust a plenty here you go . . . ankle thick even . . .

Do you know that your own link says that the pulverized concrete proves that there where explosives planted in the building? Do you agree with that claim?
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
I didn't debunk Palmer, K-Man. I debunked your interpretation of Palmers radio messages.

No man can see thru floors K-Man. Fires are not uniformly dense.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 01:54pm PT

mono, I am talking about the 6 pages of quotes from firefighters reporting explosions. How come everybody ignores these, but then makes up their own BS, which they then debunk (it's called a strawman).

And your Palmer debunking is about 2nd-grade level.

Why should someone start answering your questions when you ignore their questions?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
So I post 16 hours per day now?
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
Klimmer, Greening answers your 'pulverization' issues.

Greening 'pulverization' study
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:03pm PT

Do you know that your own link says that the pulverized concrete proves that there where explosives planted in the building? Do you agree with that claim?



Raymond,

The link is to raw footage. The CBS videographer makes no claims, he is just filming.

If you want dust from 9-11-2001 well there you go. Ankle deep dust at times.

And yes a great deal of that is concrete. Not all of it but a great deal of it is.

Q: What pulverizes concrete to dust?

A: Explosives. Collapse due to the force of gravity does not convert concrete to dust like what was seen on 9-11-2001. Explosives do this.
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
Do explosives make sound that can be recorded by the many recording devices there, Klimmer?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
I believe I have posted 3 days in a row here on supertopo. I mostly do it at night in front of the tv.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
Until 2007, the California Penal Code Section 26 stated that "Idiots" were one of six types of people who are not capable of committing crimes.
-- Wikipedia


So there you have it! Neither Bush nor Locker committed the 9-11 crimes!!

Now, if by chance it was 9-11-2008, maybe we'd have a gud winner!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
raymond, I am not asking that you answer my questions. In fact, I'm not asking questions. Instead, I'm saying to read the factual accounts of what was going on and discuss those facts, instead of trying to make up questions about stuff that nobody knows about, nor claims to know anything about.

So, do you want to talk about the stuff that we know to be true, or do you want to continue to throw up straw-men that you then bash down?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:10pm PT

Raymond,

The link is to raw footage. The CBS videographer makes no claims, he is just filming.

I talked about the pdf you posted yesterday.


Q: What pulverizes concrete to dust?

A: Explosives. Collapse due to the force of gravity does not convert concrete to dust like what was seen on 9-11-2001. Explosives do this

Why is that the case? Can you back up that with science?

What would happened with the concrete if a very high building collapse without the use of explosives?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:13pm PT

raymond, I am not asking that you answer my questions. In fact, I'm not asking questions. Instead, I'm saying to read the factual accounts of what was going on and discuss those facts, instead of trying to make up questions about stuff that nobody knows about, nor claims to know anything about.

So, do you want to talk about the stuff that we know to be true, or do you want to continue to throw up straw-men that you then bash down?

I want to discuss one of your claims, fact, truth or what you want to call them. The claim about pulverized concrete that the fireman talked about.
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
Greening 'pulverization' study
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
Do explosives make sound that can be recorded by the many recording devices there, Klimmer?
    monolith


mono, I have recordings of explosions. But why should I post them? I know you will deny that they are sounds of explosions. This is easy to predict.


Now stop asking for stupid things and post up the source for the FBI explosives tests, like you said you would. Or, were you just lying again when you said you'd post them.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
School got cancelled today because of the SoCal black-out.



Too funny. No joke . . .

Someone right now is driving down the blvd. near where I live with a mega-phone saying "9-11 was an inside job."

Truth is bubbling to the consciousness of the American public.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
Damn Locker, I thought I sent those to my girlfriend! I must have...

Now wait a minute, don't tell me that you're the "girl" I've been talking to on that 900 number!
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
K-man, you don't have audio of explosions throwing I-beams hundreds of meters or pulverizing the building to dust.

Those would be way louder and longer than standard demo.

The Naudet brothers were only a few hundred meters away, and their pro sound equipment picked up nothing.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
man rox,

receiving your insults on here is a compliment. i would be worried about myself if you actually agreed with me.

an unemployed a-hole on ST, who was a never was with nothing better to do than to bitch about wolves and californians and conspiracies who (mistakenly) think someone cares....

edit:
Hell, I thought I was completely unknown, and several guys recognised ME from behind my avatar withing hours of my first post. They even remembered my full name and how I spell it...

lol, how could anyone forget???
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:25pm PT
Not "web site data" Dingus.

Transcripts from tapes of the firefighters first-hand accounts, received through a Freedom of Information Act request.


Let me ask you, upthread you said "Fooled me once..."

How is that you came to the conclusion you were fooled [by the Truthers]?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
rox,

nobody on here knows who i am. i choose to reamain anonymous as a poster on ST because of whackjobs like you. and crowley. and others.

there are too many whackjobs out there.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
Once again. That some people hear something that they think is explosions is supposed to prove that the towers where demolished (in a novel way) by explosives but eyewitness reports of a low flying airplane flying against the pentagon do not prove that an airplane flow into pentagon?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:46pm PT
oh now come on dmt?!?!

the truthers would NEVER do that! that would mean that they are doing the same THING that they are accusing the government of doing!

nah, they would never do that....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
"How do you know what you read on the internet is the real transcription???"...

Because many of the transcripts can be verified by accompanying video.

And the video is posted.


Sure, you can fudge all of this, I guess. Fake rubble in the streets, fake fireman's cloths, covered in fake dust. The fake NY streets.

Whatever.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
Raymond,

The link is to raw footage. The CBS videographer makes no claims, he is just filming.


"I talked about the pdf you posted yesterday."



Q: What pulverizes concrete to dust?

A: Explosives. Collapse due to the force of gravity does not convert concrete to dust like what was seen on 9-11-2001. Explosives do this


"Why is that the case? Can you back up that with science?

What would happened with the concrete if a very high building collapse without the use of explosives?"




From the 1st page of Eric Lawyer's website . . .
http://firefightersfor911truth.org/



“HIGH-ORDER DAMAGE”

NFPA 921

18.3.2 - “High-Order Damage. High-order damage is characterized by shattering of the structure, producing small, pulverized debris. Walls, roofs, and structural members are splintered or shattered, with the building completely demolished. Debris is thrown great distances, possibly hundreds of feet. High-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.”

We see all signs of “high-order damage” in all three building collapses. There is no arguing this. And, it’s very clearly stated “high-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.”

Now if we look at NFPA 921 14.3 “Preservation of the Fire Scene and Physical Evidence” we find the following “the cause of a fire or explosion is not known until near the end of the investigation. Therefore, the evidentiary or interpretative value of various pieces of physical evidence observed at the scene may not be known until, at, or near the end of the fire scene examination, or until the end of the complete investigation. As a result, the entire fire scene should be considered physical evidence and should be protected and preserved.”

It doesn’t get much clearer than this. This is Investigation-101! For, all those debunkers and detractors who say “it’s obvious” why the buildings came down, I beg to differ, and so does the NFPA -”the cause of a fire or explosion is not known until near the end of the investigation.” We are professionals, we are not supposed to jump to conclusions, and we are not supposed to let political and public factors determine what we do and don’t investigate. We definitely are not supposed to destroy the very evidence that will provide the answers. And, when every indicator in “the book” is screaming “high-order” explosive damage, we have a history of prior explosives use by terrorists in those exact buildings, we have over 100 first responders reporting hearing “secondary” explosions, the fact that evidence was destroyed and this wasn’t investigated thoroughly is nothing short of criminal! It’s time to get real loud about this. Our Brothers were murdered. My fellow firefighters, we can’t afford to brush this off to politics or ignore this anymore. Stand up with Firefighters for 9/11 Truth, demand answers, and justice.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

“HIGH EXPLOSIVES”

NFPA 921 “18.12.2 High Exlosives…The effects produced by diffuse phase (i.e., fuel-air) explosions and solid explosives are very different. In a diffuse phase explosion (usually deflagration), structural damage will tend to be uniform and omnidirectional, and there will be relatively widespread evidence of burning, scorching, and blistering. In contrast, the rate of combustion of a solid explosive is extremely fast in comparison to the speed of sound. Therefore, pressure does not equalize through the explosion volume and extremely high pressures are generated near the explosion. At the location of the explosion, there should be evidence of crushing, splintering, and shattering effects produced by the higher pressures. Away from the source of the explosion, there is usually very little evidence of intense burning or scorching, except where hot shrapnel or firebrands have landed on combustible materials.”

18.12.2 is very clear. Fuel-air explosions (i.e.- JET FUEL) will be relatively widespread and there will be evidence of burning, scorching, and blistering. If the lobby truly “blew out” from the jet fuel explosion we would see extensive burning, scorching, and blistering. And, think about it, the elevator shafts do not stop in the lobby, they went below the lobby, so why did this apparent “fireball” pick the lobby to exit? Now, carefully look at this video, and you be the judge.

Do you see any signs of burning, scorching, or blistering? On your size-up pay close attention to the plants and the ceiling…do you see ANY soot? is this what you would expect to see after a “jet-fueled fireball” blew out the lobby?

Does this match the damage we would expect to see with solid explosives? (i.e. crushing, splintering, and shattering effects produced by higher pressures).



All the physical evidence form 9-11-2001 at the site of the WTC towers shows the tell-tale signs/physical evidence of High-Order Damage. “high-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.”

High-Oder Damage = Rapid Rates of Pressure Rise = High Explosives
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
How do you fudge explosions?

Who is claiming US involvement? Not I.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
K-man,


You can't let VP Dick Cheney and the Neocons off the hook. All the evidence so far really points to their clear involvement.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
Dingus, I pointed to a PDF file.

Not one source has denied the veracity of these fireman's transcripts. Don't you think The Believers would, if they could?


I guess it comes down to "how do you believe *anything* that is told to you?"

The 9-11 Commission Report. It's on a web site. How do you believe they even had a 9-11 Commission? Did you read about it in print, on a web site, or were you there in person?

If you were there in person, how do you know the Universe you experienced was indeed the same one others experience? (This is not a stupid question, it's the forefront of quantum mechanics research, which I guess is all just BS because you can't believe you even have a nose.)
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
How do we know 9-11 happened? I mean, it was a video that you saw, right? Why do you believe that?

Because lots of people said they SAW it happen. Just like lots of fireman and civilians said they SAW explosions. There is tape of it. There are eye-witness accounts.

Man-o-mighty, what are we dealing with here??
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
So Lawyer is supposed to be an expert about pulverizing of concrete? What about something from a scientist? O that was already posted above. I think two times. Did you just ignore that link?

What he said in the youtube video regarding the code has also already been debunked earlier in the thread.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
Klimmer, I make no claims as to who or why the events happened. Evidence might point one way, however I do not believe that either Bush or Cheney, in their capacity as POTUS and VPOTUS, planned these events. It's my belief, however, that the events took many years to plan and carry out.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
Man-o-mighty, what are we dealing with here??

We're dealing with an event that killed thousands of people for which the exact causes and timeline are still not entirely known. People then fill that ambiguity with their own bias, bullsh#t, and political agenda.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
raymond, I proved that the most important part of Erik Laywer's video speech was NOT debunked. And that is that NIST lied about why the did not test for explosives.

The said they didn't test because "Nobody reported explosions." [paraphrase]

But I can prove to you that MANY people reported explosions.

Even monolith said he saw them. The were coming our of Lockers ass.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
Port, upthread I posted a very interesting compilation of the timeline of the 9-11 events. It is really interesting:

http://www.911timeline.net/
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
Why should I care about what you now think was the most important point in his speech? You first wrote that the pulverized concrete part where very interesting.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
Us climbers form an open society. We are know one to another. Where did you enter it?

Rox,
and that has bearing on this conversation? or killing wolves? or dissing all of california?

just curious.

FWIW i have climbed in about 20 states and two different countries for nearly 40 years. did FA's in about 5 states. and i dont need anyone's confirmation from this web site either on my engineering and project management abiliites or my climbing background.

fact: you are an angry unemployed POS that needs respect here on this site. you said that remember?

fact: if 5 years ago when you were bitchin about losin your job you would have gone back to school you might have actually been a valuable member of society instead of an unemployed useless internet f&ktard. but you gave up. it was too hard, you whined. and whats more, you pretend to know something about being an engineer when you have'nt a f*king clue!

fact: you can GFYS and the horse you rode in on.

i was tryin not to hurt your feelings by calling you on your $hit, but i have nno problem with pointing out the truth of your situation as you seem to want to argue with others.

now i have done it....wasted another 3 minutes typing a response to some loser who has given up in life and who gets his rocks off by howling at the moon (just like the wolves that he loves so dearly).
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
raymond, it's not what I 'now' think. it's what I said was most important when i posted the two links together, Lawyer's speech and the video of all the folks talking about the explosions.

I went through the debunking piece and found it to me mostly a hit piece that was put together to discredit Laywer, and not the claims he was making. Shoot the messenger and all.

raymond, are you satisfied with the fact that NIST lied about why they did not do an explosives test? With all the evidence (physical, in pictures, eye-witness accounts), don't you think that a thorough investigation would have at least wanted to look into it? I mean, they did spend $14 Million of your tax-payer dollars.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:25pm PT

Thread is moving too fast, the heat is overwhelming, must jump...

yeah, thats what happens when the most stressful part of your day is changing your underwear and posting on ST....
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
K-man why don't you just say that Lawyer is wrong about the claim that you first found interesting?

Yes, some one tried to discredit Lawyer and he did a pretty good job with exactly that. It is possibly that Lawyer where also correct about something. I don't know and I don't know enough about the issue with bombs to really have an opinion.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
Hawkspit and the Random Phool don't even have an AVATAR, how lame is that?

oh, ouch. a deathblow! what an insult!


edit-

so you have changed your response what, three times now? feeling better there rokjox?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 03:48pm PT

Hawkspit and the Random Phool don't even have an AVATAR, how lame is that?

Why do you care if people have an avatar or not?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
Yeah, I gotta admit, I find the levels of concrete dust to be weak, to my mind. Apparently they used shitloads of drywall for fire retardant in the shafts, and other places like interior walls. The thin pans of floor concrete may have been usually brittle as being so thin and made with lighteners, they weren't structural in the way some building use them. AS the pans bent and vibrated they could have shattered a lot of concrete and mixed with all that gypsum powder the actual amount of concrete would be difficult to describe. The exterior had some coating on it too.

Hard to imagine what an ordinary amount of concrete pulverizing and breakup might be expected, the construction was rather different than typical.





Just to keep hope alive, occasionally admitting an opposition score is realistic. Having learned that its possible what I had previously learned about the "cores" is not true, I have modified some of my stance on the way the Towers fell. I now believe they fell as designed. That it would have been hard for them to fall any other way.

I had been misinformed on the design of the core members.


some of these points are brilliantly assinine....

Apparently they used shitloads of drywall for fire retardant in the shafts, and other places like interior walls.

drywall is a standard building material found in almost all commercial structures from malls to hospitals. to increase the typical fire rating (per CODE) you install a fire rated rock and sometimes double layer it to get the desired fire rating. - of course they fricking used shitloads of drywall. all emergency egress stairwells are probably double 5/8" and sometimes special 1 1/8" rock. Rox, you are a moron.


I now believe they fell as designed.

buildings are not designed to fall but rather to withstand various forces from seismic to wind. duh! rox you are a moron.

try to imagine any concrete slab dropped 500 feet and imagine how it might disentegrate. 1000' now imagine tons of steel landing on top of it. yes you guessed it. like klimwit posted...."high order damage"....

at least try to avoid sounding like such an idiot. you may have to change your avatar again. try einstein this time and maybe it will remind you to try and think.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
I think that a guy who has been such a force in the climbing world for 40 years

pull your head out. i never said i was a force in the climbing community. and like others on this site, have chosen not to use my name because there are mentally unstable jerkoffs who can't handle being called on their $hit. like you.



40 years and you are afraid of the climbers on this site. Too many of them like ME.

i am afraid of nobody face to face but you can think that way if it increases your own delusional self worth.



Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
Maybe your Avatar could be a Big Plastic Prick?

i would not want to get you all excited.

Having spent a couple decades drawing the plans that let workers build walls (and buildings and all manner of other things), having worked inside the construction industry as labor and tradesman, I well know how much drywall is used, that was my point.

well its a good thing you are retired cuz you dont know shit!
Slablizard2

Sport climber
Bay Area
Sep 9, 2011 - 05:41pm PT


Check the truck at 9:20?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnaESs34G4w&feature=related
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
Slablizard2 -- "Check the truck at 9:20?"

WOW that's it ... the Smokin Gun !!!!!!!

UhHoly .....!!!!!!!!
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
The guy who was fooled by a photoshopped cruise missile painted in American Airllines colors gives his approval.

You remember your own video that started this thread right?
Slablizard2

Sport climber
Bay Area
Sep 9, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
Says the guy who was fooled by his government again...and again..and again...
Takes a lot of faith and lube...How do you do that? You still trust the "official version" of anything?

But again why am I surprised..http://www.gallup.com/poll/145286/Four-Americans-Believe-Strict-Creationism.aspx

that should be proof enough.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
There are several demolition companies in Manhatton . . .

http://maps.google.com/maps/place?rlz=1T4GPEA_enUS301US303&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=manhattan+demolition+co&fb=1&gl=us&hq=demolition+co&hnear=0x89c2588f046ee661:0xa0b3281fcecc08c,Manhattan,+New+York,+NY&cid=10126071809082422427


This really doesn't mean anything. I doubt the ones who demo-ed the TWC towers went around advertising the fact with logos on their trucks. There are indeed demolition companies out there, perhaps many.



That was a very hard video to watch. He captures about 5 jumpers from the WTC tower real time. Very, very sad.
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
^^Klimmer^^ is a creationist, slablizard2. LOL!
Slablizard2

Sport climber
Bay Area
Sep 9, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
absolutely..still pretty odd sight "Manhattan Demolition company"
the real ones worked during the previous weekend..during the "power down"
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 9, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
Hey Dimmer, do you have your tickets yet?

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/politics/Bay-Area-to-Host-911-Conspiracy-Movie-Festival-129494038.html
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
TGT, that is an interesting article:

While [the view that the Federal Gov't was somehow involved in the 9/11 events] has never gained traction in the mainstream, a recent BBC News poll found that 15 percent of those polled in the U.S. believe that there was a conspiracy behind 9/11 that involved the federal government.

Brouillet believes that the people raising the questions, who she said are often highly educated, have been unfairly labeled as conspiracy theorists. She acknowledged that the general public finds the topic uncomfortable.

15%! Wow.

And the schedule of 9/11 Reclaiming the Truth, Reclaiming Our Future is impressive, to say the least. With sister rallies in Seattle and Toronto. I am particularly interested in the Toronto conference.

Check out the site:

http://www.communitycurrency.org/filmfestival2011.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 9, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
And about the exact same percentage believe that BHO was born in Kenya, and that we have been visited by space aliens.

your point is?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
This video of live news coverage on the morning of 9-11 is pretty intense:

Michael Hess, WTC7 explosion witness

NYC Official trapped in 7 WTC due to explosions before the collapse of the Towers.

The amount of evidence is piling higher and higher.


While Hess later retracted his explosion story, the person he was with, Jennings, did not. Jennings met and untimely and sad fate:

On August 19, 2008, just two days before the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) was due to release the draft of its Final Report on WTC-7, Jennings died after spending several days in a hospital. Filmmaker Dylan Avery, who was among the last to interview Jennings, hired a well-regarded private investigator to look into Jennings’s death. Within 24 hours, Avery received a terse message back: “Due to some of the information I have uncovered, I have determined that this is a job for the police. I have refunded your credit card. Please do not contact me again about this individual” (Griffin Mysterious Collapse pp. 98-99).

Certainly you are free to believe what you want to believe.
That is until the Thought Police arrive.
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
Bejeebus K-Man, how much crap can you spew today?

Michael Hess was not trapped before any of the buildings collapsed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2008/10/caught_up_in_a_conspiracy_theo.html

But as our interview with him shows, he is now certain that he did not hear an explosion. He just assumed on the day it could have been an explosion because he had witnessed the lights going out, the staircase filling with smoke and the building shaking vigorously.

Wtc 7 was struck partially by the first wtc collapse, then damaged even more by the second wtc collapse.

Do ya see now how reports of explosions need to be critically analyzed, not just slopped up into Trutherdom?

They weren't very effective explosions now were they K-Man?
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Sep 9, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
The amount of evidence is piling higher and higher.

Well, something is, anyway.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 09:42pm PT
Well, it's momolith, the liar, again.

Try this on for size:

Despite the evacuation order and the police presence that must have accompanied it, the mayor’s staffers did enter the WTC-7 just after 9:00. Michael Hess, corporation counsel for the city and a close friend of Giuliani; and Barry Jennings, the Director of Emergency Services for the City Housing Authority, made it up to the OEM (Independent [UK] 9/13/01). Expecting to find Giuliani at the command center, they were amazed to find “everybody was gone.” Since evacuations take time, these reports imply an evacuation order was given before 9:03.

Puzzled, Jennings called other staffers, one of whom told him “to leave and leave right away.” A superior also commanded him to “get out of there now.” But the elevators didn’t work because the power had gone out (BBC 9/6/08). Do these warnings suggest foreknowledge that “seven is coming down,” or do they convey caution about a possible third hit on a building that housed many government offices, including the SEC, DoD, and CIA?

...

Mayor’s Staffers Report Explosions and Smoke

After receiving orders to leave the building, Hess and Jennings reportedly headed down the stairs until they got to the sixth floor. There, according to Jennings, “the landing that we were standing on gave way” because of a “big explosion” from below. They retreated to the eighth floor, broke a window, and called to firefighters for help: “They came twice. Why? I was trapped in there when both buildings [Towers] came down. All this time I was hearing explosions”. Hess largely corroborated Jennings’s story, adding “we were trapped on the eighth floor with smoke, thick smoke, all around us, for about an hour and a half.


And, so you can be up on your facts, here's Hess' explanation of what they went through, including his explosion retraction that I mentioned above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy5lpp6yADw&NR=1
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
Yep, he says he only heard wind and sirens, and the building shaking, no explosions. He immediately thought bomb in the basement. Not unsurprising. Later, he realized it was part of WTC1 crashing into part of WTC 7.

Classic K-Man. You take someone's first impression moments after a horrific event and you turn them into massive explosions.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
Later, he realized it was part of WTC1 crashing into part of WTC 7.


Make it up as you go along!

It's funny, that's doesn't fit with the timeline Hess himself gave.

The power went out and another gentleman and I walked down the stairs until we got to the sixth floor...
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 09:57pm PT
That's what he said, in the same video, idiot!

It's funny how your video cuts out right before he says he knows it was WTC 1 crashing into WTC 7.

At 3:40 he says it was WTC 1 crashing into WTC 7.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2008/10/caught_up_in_a_conspiracy_theo.html
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:07pm PT
Hey K-Man, why does your video suddenly stop when Hess is about to say it was WTC 1 crashing into WTC 7?

Dang you are a gullible fool.

Typical Truther cherry picking.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
mono, I watched the version of the video you watched and true, that is what he said (the version I had cut before he talked about 7WTC being hit by the Towers).

However, the timeline that I have above clearly contradicts Hess' later version of events when he goes back on saying he heard an explosion.

So who is right here? Tons of info and mis-info, hard to know. Neither of us were there.

And one of the folks, who did not recant his explosion story, is dead.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
Good question Dr. F.
Get back to us when you find the answer.
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:13pm PT
Timeline fits perfectly. He entered the building after the first impact of plane into WTC 1, went up to the 23rd floor. Stayed for a while, then walked down the stairs with Jennings. Perfect matchup.

Why do your Truther sites cut out vital information?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:15pm PT
Yesterday it was over 100 at work


Everyone thought there was an explosion.

the windows rattled,there was a shockwave. We ran back to the shop to see if there had been an accident and if our service guy was hurt.












































A semi drove by the shop and blew a tire form the heat.

So much for eyewitness accounts.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
TGT,
did you see the tire blow?
did you see the semi?
did you talk to the driver?
do you have a timeline of events?
video?
chemical analysis?

then how do you really know???

my guess it was an underground explosion due to illegals tunnelling below your work place and you dont have the proof to deny that....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:22pm PT
Not too sure guys, seems like pretty effective explosions to me.

These are both very short. Hard to deny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhGcBxONSvc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3uFvOiTNz4&feature=related

Pay special attention to the last couple of seconds in the 2nd video.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
you dont think that original videos could have been manipulated now do you?

edit:
or that there could have been pressure excursions due to combustibles in the building?

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:30pm PT
Well I do know one thing. The 9-11 Commission manipulated their report.
That's on record.

And talk about conspiracy theories. Manipulating live broadcasts the day of the event? Boy, those are some clever Truthers!

And you know Hawkeye, you give a darn good reason why the should test for explosives! Great idea.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:30pm PT
Why are all the damage clips from the first WTC bombing?

BTW do you know what the key piece of evidence in solving that one was and who found it?









It was the serial number on the differential of the van. One of the few identifiable pieces that survived the car bomb. It left a three story deep hole.

Run down by the Auto Insurance Institute.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:31pm PT
Good point TGT!

And, um, what is your point?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
Your vids are frauds
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
A serial number from a van in '93 proves that the live feeds from 9-11 are frauds? Mind if I call you an idiot?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
Loose Change 9/11: An American Coup

http://www.hulu.com/watch/272974/loose-change-911-an-american-coup

They do a very good job. The 3rd version just sticks to hard hitting facts without much speculation.

The 9-11 commission Report is invalidated.

LlHOP and MIHOP


Investigate 9-11.

Ask questions and demand answers.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:43pm PT
Timeline fits perfectly. He entered the building after the first impact of plane into WTC 1, went up to the 23rd floor. Stayed for a while, then walked down the stairs with Jennings. Perfect matchup.

monolith, I will differ with you on this point. They did not linger in 7 WTC once they realized the command center was evacuated. The electricity was out, so they went down the stairs, got to floor 6, and all hell broke loose.

I don't care how slowly they walked, it did not take them an hour to go down the stairs.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:49pm PT
Klimmer, there is going to be a lot of new things exposed this weekend, and the firm evidence keeps piling up.

Stubborn minds will fight this tooth and nail, along with the powerful folks who planned the attacks. They don't play softball, as you can see, and they will fight hard to suppress the truth.

It's amazing. Even when respected people, folks who were in the 9-11 Commission itself!, claim that the whole OCT is a scam, folks refuse to listen.

The arrogant stupidity of the American People will never cease to amaze.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:49pm PT
The Avery film above covers WTC tower 7 really well . . .

Then they probably killed Barry, the WTC 7 tower witness, 2 days before the NIST report came out. A private investigator looking into his death got to certain point and refused to go further. Said that his death is for the police to continue to work on from this point onward. He wasn't going to go any further and he did not want to be contacted again to look any further into his death.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:11pm PT
http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/09/09/090911-news-911-truthers-1-4/

Two young filmmakers are distancing themselves from a 9/11 conspiracy movement that they helped foster with a movie that asserts a U.S. hand in the terrorist attacks — even as they prepare to cash-in on profits from a re-edit and rerelease of the film....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:11pm PT
Architects & Engineers - Solving the Mystery of WTC 7 - AE911Truth.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw&feature=player_embedded#!


They do a good job in this film.

Good job Ed Asner.




Cintune,


Yes, they made 3 different versions of Loose Change. Each one got better and sifted out and concentrated the indisputable evidence.

Many have taken up where they have left off.
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:12pm PT
http://www.fark.com/vidplayer/6550297
monolith

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:19pm PT
Many have taken up where they have left off.

Klimmer, you mean you are still caught up in their backwash while they are moving on.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:27pm PT
Klimmer, you mean you are still caught up in their backwash while they are moving on.

No.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
Monolith

You some kind of klimmer leg humper?

You seem to have a real hard on for this debunk sh'it .......
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
Werner, why do hare krishna's have a hard on for calling people fools and rascals? It's always you "fool" this or you "rascal" this, or if you really want to use your ultimate insult you "foolish rascal."
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
Klimmer, look at this through your stereoscope.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 10, 2011 - 12:47am PT
That did it.

I'm just hypnotized and lost for words.

Gee whiz. Life's over. Can't get anything done anymore.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 10, 2011 - 12:58am PT
The new Loose Change flick is really good. Thanks for pointing that out Klimmer. Their Flight 93 coverage is impressive and the ending is creepy.

Ho man, is the sh#t hitting the fan, or what.

mono, watch the Barry interview regarding 7 WTC, that will set you straight on the timeline we were talking about.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 10, 2011 - 01:24am PT
kook-man wrote:


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 10, 2011 - 02:02am PT
Hey Granite, didja notice that if you watch that last one for about 10 minutes, it starts turning colors?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 11, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
Look into my eyes Klimmer!!!!!

ROX you are not listening!!!!!!!


Mimi

climber
Sep 11, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
Sprayed me ale on that one, TGT!!!!!!!!!1111111
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 11, 2011 - 11:37pm PT
So how long will we go on solemnly “remembering” 9/11, without actually discussing it at all?

As of 2006, some 42% of the American people did not buy the official narrative of 9/11—which is to say, the US government’s conspiracy theory. And recent polls in France and the UK reveal that the majorities in those two nations now don’t buy that theory, either.

And why should they? It’s obviously indefensible, since those who swear by it will not debate it publicly, but just keep jeering anyone who dares to question it.



Anybody want to debate the facts of the NIST report?

Nope!

Not a single taker to talk about how NIST lied about why they didn't test for explosives.


But boy will they call Truth Seekers fruitcakes!






Some interesting reading:

Air Force Colonel and key Pentagon official Karen Kwiatkowski – who blew the whistle on the Bush administration’s efforts to concoct false intelligence about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction – wrote:

I have been told by reporters that they will not report their own insights or contrary evaluations of the official 9/11 story, because to question the government story about 9/11 is to question the very foundations of our entire modern belief system regarding our government, our country, and our way of life. To be charged with questioning these foundations is far more serious than being labeled a disgruntled conspiracy nut or anti-government traitor, or even being sidelined or marginalized within an academic, government service, or literary career. To question the official 9/11 story is simply and fundamentally revolutionary. In this way, of course, questioning the official story is also simply and fundamentally American.

From: Pentagon Papers Whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg Says that the Government Has ORDERED the Media Not to Cover 9/11
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 12, 2011 - 01:20am PT
but then votes Obama or some other idiocy into office with the sole intent of making a bigger and bigger government.

yep.. thats the reason I voted for Obama. oh yes.. uh huh.. tell it to them brother. Preach it.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2011 - 01:24am PT

I looked at this thing all weekend.

If you look closely you'll see Dick Cheney pushing some buttons somewhere.

If you look closely on the right side you'll see Bush doing something really weird.

How come this isn't on CNN ..... ????
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2011 - 01:33am PT
Skippy don't know.

He'll invent some idea in his fertile brain that will align with his mental speculations.

Ultimately he's guessing like all the rest ......
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2011 - 01:40am PT
Just see how Skippys above reply is full of question marks.

This proves he's guessing, has no clue and invented his ideas and planted them here .....
apogee

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:18am PT
raymond phule

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 04:14am PT

So a colonel in the services of the US Government is just lying when she says what she says? And that's why they put court-gag orders on her testimony?

Interesting logic. So you obviously believe there are a lot of people that have lied about what happened on 9/11 but you directly believe a person that agrees with your view.

I also missed what this colonel is supposed to have said.

K-man, do you remember the issue about the pulverized concrete?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 04:29am PT
So a translator and not a colonel?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:36am PT
K-man, do you remember the issue about the pulverized concrete?

Yes I do raymond. Why is the concrete pulverized at the very top of the buildings in the pictures showing the beginning of the collapse? At this point in the collapse, there should be huge pieces of concrete.

BTW, remember the issue of the red hot fires, for days, no MONTHS, after the collapse? The melted steel? The fires at Ground Zero were officially put out on Dec 16th!

What about the lies in the NIST report? Gonna avoid that, aren't you?

How about this: The NIST report says that in one second, WTC 7 fell 8 stories--in one second! The entire structure, at the onset of the collapse. That is, the entire building fell at free-fall speeds, actually accelerating, for over 100 feet. In your mind, does that coexist with several small office fires? Well, maybe in yours. Because that's what somebody told you. But folks that do the actual math--no, it is not possible without simultaneously removing all the 47 steel supports.

How'd that happen?? Well, poor Barry Jennings knows. And so does Hess, but he knew when to change his story. Barry's dead, Hess isn't.



Here's the interviews with Barry Jennings. Why don't you address these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRaKHq2dfCI

http://blip.tv/i-am-dylan-avery/barry-jennings-uncut-1071126



Get back to me when you want to talk about the real issues.
monolith

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:48am PT
At this point in the collapse, there should be huge pieces of concrete.

roflmao, the floor slab was only a few inches thick.

And still no audio of the concrete being pulverized. It would be very obvious since you say it's the very first thing happening.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:50am PT
"Only"?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:50am PT
Come on mono, the real stuff. Not this armchair BS. Address the facts bozo.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:53am PT
monolith, you lying sack, you are really annoying. I have provided you audio of explosions, but you deny they are explosions.

When are you, you lying sack, going to provide the links to the FBI explosion tests, like you said you would?

Come on bozo, you're telling me to provide stuff I've already provided, yet you can't come through to back up your own claims. What a loser.

Address the Berry Jennings issue?

No, you never will, asshat.

And still no audio of the concrete being pulverized. It would be very obvious since you say it's the very first thing happening.

Sez who?? I know who, some dipshit liar.

PS: Sorry, I blew my cool here. I didn't deal well with the arrogance directed at me. I promise to try harder to keep my cool.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:54am PT
And Locker, people who don't look at the evidence believe what they are told.
monolith

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 11:10am PT
K-Man:
Sez who?? I know who, some dipshit liar.

K-Man:
Take a look at the pictures of the WTC Towers as they begin to collapse. You see lots of pulverized concrete, even before there's any chance of it being created by floors smashing into themselves.

The very first thing happening, even before the first floor hits. Yet No audio of explosions pulverizing an acre of concrete.

Just one floor crashing into another is going to start breaking up the concrete and drywall.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
Christ, what a waste of time...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
That's right Ron. That's why I listed a set of facts, backed by the NIST report and videos. None of which anybody wants to touch.

Why is that?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
People GENERALLY believe what the WANT to believe regardless of the evidence...

You for instance...

Well Locker, that's what I am asking for. Official evidence that shows that explosives were not used to bring the buildings down.

We have a LOT of unofficial evidence that shows that explosives WERE used. Photographic evidence, eye witness reports, video evidence, tests of the dust, and more. We also have a lie by NIST for their reason they did not test for explosives.

In fact, all of this shows that I do NOT just believe what I am told. I have looked hard at the hard evidence. How about you?

What evidence do you have that explosives were not used?

None, zero. You don't have that evidence, so WTF are you talking about "regardless of evidence"?

But let me guess: Some chick in a mini-skirt told you the OCT. Yeah, you'd believe that "evidence."


I've shown why I question the OCT, now I expect you to tell me how YOU came up with your belief. I can't wait to hear it.

Until then, I must conclude that YOU DON"T HAVE ANY EVIDENCE that shows explosives were not used to bring down the buildings.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 12, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
Some interesting reading:


Air Force Colonel and key Pentagon official Karen Kwiatkowski – who blew the whistle on the Bush administration’s efforts to concoct false intelligence about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction – wrote:

I have been told by reporters that they will not report their own insights or contrary evaluations of the official 9/11 story, because to question the government story about 9/11 is to question the very foundations of our entire modern belief system regarding our government, our country, and our way of life. To be charged with questioning these foundations is far more serious than being labeled a disgruntled conspiracy nut or anti-government traitor, or even being sidelined or marginalized within an academic, government service, or literary career. To question the official 9/11 story is simply and fundamentally revolutionary. In this way, of course, questioning the official story is also simply and fundamentally American.
http://www.laweekly.com/2004-02-19/news/soldier-for-the-truth/


From: Pentagon Papers Whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg Says that the Government Has ORDERED the Media Not to Cover 9/11
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/06/pentagon-papers-whistleblower-daniel-ellsberg-says-that-the-government-has-ordered-the-media-not-to-cover-911.html


K-man,

That is very interesting reading.

Ellsberg nails it. M$M will not talk about it. They have been told to keep their mouths shut as much as possible and not to discuss it. And journalists fear for their jobs and careers and will not make waves. M$M is Coporate owned. Truth went out the window with the fairness doctrine.

Independent journalism is the only truth we have.

They will ignore 9-11 truth. They will belittle 9-11 Truth. They will fight against 9-11 Truth. But in the end we win, as the saying goes.

(It may take till judgement day, but all lies, all crimes, all in-side jobs, all false-flags throughout man's history will be revealed in full glory to their shame in front of everyone. And I mean everyone. We will all know. Then GOD's justice will be dealt. I know it is hard to wait. Many of us would like that justice to be dealt now against the real perpetrators in this life.

But, its gonna take a while till we get there. We still have this life to live. All we can do is get as many people as we can to wake-up to the truth, and those who refuse to listen no matter what, no more can be done for them. Their minds are seared. However, we do have hope justice can prevail here on Earth as well. We have to demand it. NGU. It's what the Good Lord expects of us, and what he wants us to do.)



Rox,

I think it was Sibel Edmonds who indeed said that Osama Bin Laden was still a CIA asset up to 9-11-2001. I've read it too. It came from a very credible source. Will have to Google and find it again. I've even mentioned it here on ST in the past. Maybe there is a link there in the archives. Will have to look.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 01:40pm PT

Yes I do raymond. Why is the concrete pulverized at the very top of the buildings in the pictures showing the beginning of the collapse? At this point in the collapse, there should be huge pieces of concrete.

So you are ignoring the analysis previously linked to in this thread. Where are your analysis that show you claim above?


What about the lies in the NIST report? Gonna avoid that, aren't you?

I am just more interested in concrete.


How about this: The NIST report says that in one second, WTC 7 fell 8 stories--in one second! The entire structure, at the onset of the collapse. That is, the entire building fell at free-fall speeds, actually accelerating, for over 100 feet. In your mind, does that coexist with several small office fires? Well, maybe in yours. Because that's what somebody told you. But folks that do the actual math--no, it is not possible without simultaneously removing all the 47 steel supports.
So where can I find that math? NIST have shown their math and simulations but I can't find the math and simulations that you are talking about.

"That is, the entire building fell at free-fall speeds, actually accelerating, for over 100 feet."

When I read this I wounder if you have even a basic knowledge about physics.


How'd that happen?? Well, poor Barry Jennings knows. And so does Hess, but he knew when to change his story. Barry's dead, Hess isn't.

Here's the interviews with Barry Jennings. Why don't you address these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRaKHq2dfCI

http://blip.tv/i-am-dylan-avery/barry-jennings-uncut-1071126

I read a transcript of that interview a couple of days ago. A couple of questions. How did he know that the towers where standing when he couldn't see them? I also believe that he later understood that the towers where falling because the rescuer run away. Not because he hard large noises or debris flying around or something.

My explanation of barry Jennings account is that the timeline is mixed up in some way. He arrived later than it seems or what they did took longer times than it might seem.

One large problem I have with the explosions he is talking about is that I really cant find any reason for someone except the terrorist to detonate bombs in a building before it has been hit.


Get back to me when you want to talk about the real issues.

I am interested in why you still cant admit that the pulverized concrete is not a good argument for your side. You are not looking at all evidence in an unbiased way and you also ignore questions that you rather want to ignore.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 12, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
Raymond,

Eric Lawyer answered you loud and clear and you ignored all the forensic fire science and the proper procedures to follow for the evidence of accelerants.

9-11 had all the signs of accelerants (still does, much of the evidence hasn't gone away): the physical evidence, the physical damage, the eye-witness testimonies, the visual evidence, the video evidence, the audio evidence, the nano-thermite explosive evidence in the dust of 9-11-2001. All of the evidence goes on and on. Yet you ignore all of it and say it doesn't exist. Apparently black is white in your world.

You just ignore it with the wave of your hand. You are being very dishonest.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
Klimmer, Eric lawyer has already been debunked and his claims in regard to pulverized concrete was ridiculous.

It is nice to see that you also ignore the article that analyzed that issue and instead believe a fireman that can't even read to code he talked about.

I feel very sorry for you students.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
raymond, thanks for addressing my questions. You're the first.

Sorry, I missed the analysis of the pulverized concrete earlier in the thread. Can you point me to it (sorry, I'm not trying to be evasive).

Also, you ask for an analysis to back up my claim. However, because no official analysis was ever done, I can only show unofficial claims and analyses. That is why I am asking for a real investigation into the events of 9-11, the official one did not take all evidence into account.

So where can I find that math? NIST have shown their math and simulations but I can't find the math and simulations that you are talking about.

The analysis of the 8-story fall in 1 second is in the NIST report. Can't look up the exact page right now, I'm at work. But it is in there.

"That is, the entire building fell at free-fall speeds, actually accelerating, for over 100 feet."

When I read this I wounder if you have even a basic knowledge about physics.


When things begin to free-fall, they accelerate. Do you know basic physics? There's even a formula for it, maybe you've heard of it.

As for Barry Jennings, to deny his account is the only thing The Believers will ever do.


I am interested in why you still cant admit that the pulverized concrete is not a good argument for your side.

Well, I don't see any way, other than explosives, to account for the fact that the cement in three modern steel structures was reduced to fine dust. This is a by-product of controlled demolition, and has not been witnessed in other buildings collapsing from their own weight. I don't understand why I need to explain that.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
I just watched an interesting show on 9/11 last night. A couple of french filmmakers were making a documentary on a young firefighter just starting out. They just happened to be filming during the plane crashes. One filmmaker was in building 1 when building 2 came down. They never once claimed that they heard explosions. In the extensive video that they have during the collapse you hear no explosions. None of the firefighters claimed there was explosions. They were right there, but hey what do they know.

Edit: You do hear the bodies of the jumpers exploding when they hit the ground. Gruesome.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
Klimmer, Eric lawyer has already been debunked and his claims in regard to pulverized concrete was ridiculous.

FASLE. I showed that the article "debunking" Laywer was a hit piece aimed to discredit Laywer, and not the arguments he was making.

Get this, the entire Erik Laywer speech was aimed at showing that NIST did not fully investigate the collapse of the buildings. In fact, NIST lied about why they did not do explosive tests.

Now how about debunking the points that Lawyer was making, and not murder the messenger.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
None of the firefighters claimed there was explosions.

This is a lie.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
K-man I'm talking about the firefighters in the documentary. They never once say anything about explosions in the film during the collapses or after the fact.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
"When things begin to free-fall, they accelerate. Do you know basic physics? There's even a formula for it, maybe you've heard of it."

Yes, I know those formulas and I have also used them many times. I just didn't think what you wrote made much sense.

"As for Barry Jennings, to deny his account is the only thing The Believers will ever do."

Do you have an exact time line? Do someone have an exact time line?

Do you realize that you do the exact same thing that you accuse "the believers" for when you ignore the eyewitnesses at pentagon?

Isn't it strange that it is only one person that have heard explosions in wtc 7 before the first tower fell? Why should we believe what you think his experience implies when he doesn't even seem to know the time line himself?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
"Klimmer, Eric lawyer has already been debunked and his claims in regard to pulverized concrete was ridiculous.

FASLE. I showed that the article "debunking" Laywer was a hit piece aimed to discredit Laywer, and not the arguments he was making.

Get this, the entire Erik Laywer speech was aimed at showing that NIST did not fully investigate the collapse of the buildings. In fact, NIST lied about why they did not do explosive tests.

Now how about debunking the points that Lawyer was making, and not murder the messenger."

This starts to be boring. You have used and Klimmer is still using arguments from that video. Arguments that has been clearly debunked before in this thread. What else he said in the video is not important in this case.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
Do you realize that you do the exact same thing that you accuse "the believers" for when you ignore the eyewitnesses at pentagon?

I don't ignore them. I wonder why their eye witness reports and the photographic diverge so much. That's why I want the Pentagon to release the video they have of the attack. There are surveillance cameras lining the wall of the Pentagon that was hit. Why no fire damage to the building, when the official report claims that the fire was so hot it vaporized the plane?

Isn't it strange that it is only one person that have heard explosions in wtc 7 before the first tower fell? Why should we believe what you think his experience implies when he doesn't even seem to know the time line himself?

It would be strange, but of course it's a lie that only one person heard the explosions. Firemen were told to get out of the building due to secondary explosions.

You can see this in the latest Loose Change video. They have a very thorough analysis of WTC 7, it is impressive. Watch that and then remove the claim that "only one report of explosions" BS.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
ignore the mountains of hard data in opposition to your view point ...
- coz


coz, I find it amazing that you yourself claimed that everybody knew that WTC 7 was brought down by explosives.

You deny your own first-hand report.


Besides, view ALL of the evidence. Including the stuff that you don't want to believe.

If there is something fishy about the attacks, then you must also know that The Truther movement is filled with shills who put up false theories in order to discredit the movement. It's not easy to sift through all the different tales. But, look at the photos, the eye-witness accounts. The videos and news reels of the day.

This is the evidence that you cannot deny.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:24pm PT

K-man I'm talking about the firefighters in the documentary. They never once say anything about explosions in the film during the collapses or after the fact.

I also saw this documentary yesterday. You are both right and wrong but mostly right. One firefighter actually thought and said just after the south tower fell down that he had experienced a explosion. The fire chiefs in the north tower didn't seem to know that the south tower had collapsed before the north tower collapsed and they had a free view south.

Yes, the falling bodies was scary.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
"It would be strange, but of course it's a lie that only one person heard the explosions. Firemen were told to get out of the building due to secondary explosions."

Before the first tower collapsed? I talked about the time period before wtc 7 where supposed to have been hit by debris. The time period where Jennings is supposed to have experienced explosions.

One reason that I don't care that much people hearing explosions is that I don't find it strange if some explosions happens in a fire and that non explosions probably can sound like explosions.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
Of course YOU are CORRECT about ALL of this...


Say Locker. What am I correct about?? All I've said is that I don't believe the OCT and I've pointed out why I don't buy it.

I have not put forth any theory about why or who.

I have asked for a formal investigation that does not bury evidence.

The only thing I can be correct about is revealing why the 9-11 Commission Report and the NIST report are crocks. So, thanks for the endorsement.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
coz, would love to get together with you and The Warbler! What a gas that would be. I'm doing situps as I type ...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
The time period where Jennings is supposed to have experienced explosions.

OK, I gotta get to work. But how about this:

Can you show that the stairs where Jennings and Hess experienced their "explosion" was in fact an area that was effected by the falling Tower?
They were on the opposite side of the building from the Towers.

OK, how about this timeline:

The second plane hit at 9:03, an the electricity in WTC 7 was shut off. The two began their descent, from floor 23. They got to floor 6, and all hell broke loose.

The first tower fell just before 10.

How long would it take you to go down 16 flights of stairs when you know the building was evacuated and your boss told you to get the hell out of there? 45 minutes? 3 minutes/flight of stairs, when you know you have to leave fast? Let's say 20 steps / story. 20 steps in three minutes, that's 9 seconds / step.

Hess changed his story, Jennings didn't.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
What if they got to floor 23 later than you seem to think?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 12, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
Sep 12, 2011 - 11:11am PT
What scares me so much, Klimmer, is you can't figure out... why no one appreciates all this evidence, like you do.

IT'S NOT CREDIBLE. PEROID.

You of all people, ignore the mountains of hard data in opposition to your view point, by very credible sources, and take as the gospel the word, of an off duty cop or firefighter fleeting in panic.

The fact that you are a science teacher leads me to believe our children are in trouble.

YOU ARE EITHER LAUGHING AS A TROLL, (I HOPE) OR PROOF HUMANS ARE DOOMED...

Coz,

You scared? Really?

No teacher in their right mind talks about the Truth of 9-11 or about the evidence that "ET/UFOs" or some other phenomenon are visiting Earth or anything else really controversial. We stick to the curriculum, the standards, the empirical science.

But why are you so scared of looking into controversial topics and looking at all the evidence on your own time? You have your mind already made up on everything? Don't bring in my job. They don't mix. Isn't it the same pressure journalists face?

(Edit: never shall we speak of the "forbidden secret knowledge" at our jobs, in the M$M, or anywhere else where they can pressure you to line-up and shut-up.)

Many appreciate all the evidence that has been found regarding the Truth of 9-11-2001: Veterans, Government, Intelligence, Scientists, Architects, Pilots, the people really in the inside and/or who are very knowledgeable, and the list goes on and on.

You have to consider all the evidence not "Cherry Pick" as the 9-11 Commission Report, NIST and other Federal Agencies have done to prop up the OCT.

When all the evidence that can be collaborated is brought forth it overwhelmingly invalidates the US Gov OCT. That is how science works. The scientific method invalidates hypotheses or perhaps theories that are more developed. Once the theory or hypothesis is invalidated, then it must be rejected, and the process begins again until hopefully at some point in time you have a hypothesis or theory that is not invalid. That is how the scientific method works.

That is what we are asking for. Investigate 9-11-2001 openly and honestly looking at all the evidence that has been discovered from 9-11-2001.

Even those on the 9-11 Commission, some have admitted publicly the Report was a sham, a whitewash. It was political. It was designed to support the OCT and not find blame. They knew the outcome of the Report before they ever began the Commission.

But Coz you believe every word of it, except for WTC#7, since everyone knows it was felled by demolitions. Well, you just invalidated the 9-11 Commission Report and the US Gov's OCT, because Uncle Sam says WTC#7 fell due to fire only.

What do you have to say about that and how are you going to celebrate?


Let me guess. You're going to Disneyland.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 12, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
Maybe the one thing that you can learn from this, the Warren commission, and on and on. That is, that government commissions investigating and reporting on important public events, be given strong and apolitical mandates, independent and capable members, and sufficient resources to do a definitive job.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 12, 2011 - 06:27pm PT
...would have been unconscionable to NOT mine the building just in case it had to be demolished...

That is possibly the stupidest thing I've read since 9/11...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 12, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
How bout a longish, moderate free route where we can spend belay time together in pairs slandering the hapless leader, alternating between hushed tones and with overt harassment, for his particular delusional ideas about Sept 11th?

Do we go in costume?

Penalty slack for every myth busted, a tug on the lead line for every mention of dubious governments.

What a hoot! I'm in...

Would Space Babble be long enough.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 12, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
I think you're all going to need to go to Baffin to find something long enough.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
This is the most informative thread on StupidTopo ever.

The most credible posters dig deep and reveal all.

The truth is being revealed.

The mysteries are coming to the light bulb ......
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 12, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
9-11 started in Afghanistan on 9-9 with the suicide bombing assassination of Masood Mansur. leader of the anti Taliban alliance.

How do you explain that one?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
What happened here?

On Thursday, September 8, 2011, the CIA issued legal threats against producers Ray Nowosielski and John Duffy on their discovery of the identities of the two key CIA analysts who executed the Tenet-Black-Blee cover-up in the case of two key 9/11 hijackers.

The producers' website was taken down yesterday.
OR

Trad climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 09:23pm PT
Oh, and maybe kill a bunch more people. Knowing that the twin towers was a continued target of the most successful "Terror" organisation in the world would have been unconscionable to NOT mine the building just in case it had to be demolished to save Lehman Bro, Citibank, Bear Stearns and about thirty other world headquarters of the richest men in the world and ALL their money?

Lehman bros= Midtown
Bears Stearns= Midtown
Citi= Midtown(mgmnt), Citi= Tribeca ( cap markets)

None within miles of WTC
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 12, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
This is the most informative thread on StupidTopo ever.

The most credible posters dig deep and reveal all.

The truth is being revealed.

The mysteries are coming to the light bulb ......

yeah like moths to flame or flies to, well, you know......

you will all win huge contracts with security firms for solving a huge mystery......but dont quit your day jobs just yet.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 12, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
I don't know what happened really on 9-11 but this 5 minute video is a good run-down of the official story. Hearing it all laid out makes it an equally unlikely story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98&sns=fb

Peace

Karl
go-B

climber
Sozo
Sep 12, 2011 - 09:43pm PT
OR

Trad climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:05pm PT
I agree, facts are always irrelevent when a good conspiracy is in order.
OR

Trad climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
I'm with DrF. because I'm not delusional.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
All the demolition and missile talk is a distraction and just undermines the credibility of those seeking truth.

Look at the stuff that the 9-11 commission deliberately ignored. The Money trail is a no brainer but it's been ignored. The $100,000 supposedly wired to Atta by the Pakistani ISI chief is highly relevant particularly since we found Bin Laden in the lap of the Saudis. In fact, the money of 9-11 points right to our allies, the Saudis and Pakistanis and yet we invade Afghanistan and Iraq.

The war games allegedly held on 9-11 are very significant. How did the terrorist know to strike then. How come we have zero discussion or info about that?

and then there's "Able Danger" if you don't know about that, it's just another sign of the coverup. These terrorists were ignored and enabled.

peace

Karl
monolith

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:49pm PT
Yep, every item a distortion or lie or omission.

Easy to tell when you hear talk of caves and boxcutters.
monolith

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:07am PT
I liked the part where he says a few of the Seal commandos on the Bin Laden mission, who were kia later, were actually assassinated because they knew too much.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:08am PT
Werner OWNS you all. BWA-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha!!!!!6!!!!
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:38am PT
The plane to Krazinutistan is leaving soon and you conspiracy wackos better head to the security line.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 13, 2011 - 01:14am PT
9/11: A Conspiracy Theory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98&sns=fb



Karl,

Thanks for posting that. Brilliant.


Sometimes humor cuts right through the poop like nothing else can.

That's a keeper.


And they want to make those who question 9-11 out to be bat poop crazy?

You definitely have to be snorting bat poop to believe the 9-11 Commission Report OCT. You really, really have to be out to lunch crazy and insane to fall for that . . . It isn't even physically possible and yet people still believe it.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 13, 2011 - 01:57am PT
You definitely have to be snorting bat poop to believe the 9-11 Commission Report OCT. You really, really have to be out to lunch crazy and insane to fall for that


Thing is, even the 9-11 commission leaders admit they were lied to by the CIA and others and that their investigation was politically restricted and influenced.

And yet, as soon as even the guys giving the official bullshit discredit it, people still insist on believing it. Bush counter-terrorism Clarke comes out with damning accusations and all of a sudden he must be a pinko too!

Thats how all this sh#t comes off. People refuse to believe what they don't want to see so we get pawned by the government all the time.

SO much mathematical evidence that's irrefutable that electronic voting machines are either screwing up or cheating us but no outrage!???? I mean, Over 100% turnout in a percent is impossible right?

We're on our own I"m afraid. Heal your head and heart and the world changes around you, but try to spread the seeds of awakening so people can wake up and smell the crap when they're able

peace

karl
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 13, 2011 - 02:37am PT
Damn! Karl steps in, and in one post trumps everything I've been working so hard to accomplish.


If I had a Guinness, I'd say "Brilliant!"



PS. Take the election fraud stuff over to the Election Fraud thread. It needs some good lovin':

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1598197
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:38am PT
For those who think the government allowing, even passively through neglect, 9-11 to happen is unthinkable because it's so horrible and treasonably violent to our own citizens:

Think about this. It's virtually proved that Bush went into Iraq knowing it was no threat, knowing they had nothing to do with 9-11, and if you study it, you realize they totally knew there was no WMD threat. They just wanted to invade the place as stated in the project for a new american century, written during the Clinton administration.

and so, by fraud, more Americans died in the Iraq war than on 9-11, and many, many more severely injured and at greater cost. They knew that would happen and started the damn war anyway.

So even if you completely disregard 9-11 conspiracy theory, the powers that be are guilty of the worst violent treason against us.

Fie on Obama for letting them all get away with it too. Guess he just didn't feel like he had the power to buck the real power to get us justice.

Peace

Karl
raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:57am PT

Funny, I didn't get that at all. So I went back and listened AGAIN to Karl's links, and NOTHING like that is said at ALL about the Seal teams...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98&sns=fb

You hearing things that don't exist? AGAIN?

So what is your interpretation of the part that starts at 4.03 in the video? Just a random fact?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:04am PT

Think about this. It's virtually proved that Bush went into Iraq knowing it was no threat, knowing they had nothing to do with 9-11, and if you study it, you realize they totally knew there was no WMD threat. They just wanted to invade the place as stated in the project for a new american century, written during the Clinton administration.

This is interesting. I would say that most of the people outside the US knew that Irak had nothing to do with 9/11. There really where no information suggesting that Irak where involved. I am not sure if Bush even claimed this.

Most people outside the US neither believed that Irak had WMDs or at least thought that the UN investigation should have time to finish their investigation.

It was quite clear that US wanted to go to war and that all the official reasons where not true.

The American people got really easy fooled if you actually believed any of that propaganda.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 07:27am PT

I don't have to "interpret it". I got English wired. The shortest segment in the entire vid.

"... then a couple dozen of that teams members died in a helicopter crash in Afganistan."


Not a damn WORD about anthing else, thats IT!

Rokjox, the whole video was based on that the viewer is supposed to connect the dots and draw some "obvious conclusions". Do you really don't understand that?


Ramdom Phoole, I absolutely don't hold with imaginary voices saying imaginary things. That is a BIG problem for you.

Why do you always seem to try to insult people?


Riley, Karls linked video is not full of half truths. Its a brief and clear statement of just a FEW of the problems with the official conspiracy theory.

What? I don't think that the video mentioned any problems at all with the official theory? It was just a series of facts. Was not that you point above?

Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 13, 2011 - 09:05am PT
"Paging Truther's at Gate C. Flight 911 to Krazynutistan has been delayed. Please return to the Medical Holding Facility with your nurse escorts".
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 13, 2011 - 10:23am PT
Sometimes the important awakening is just to realize the world is not as you see it and to learn to exist in the truth of not really knowing. No belief required, just a shaking off of the complacency of the illusion of security in knowing

I don't know the real 9-11 story, I really don't. I have trouble believing ANY of the complete theories of it, by the government or the "truthers" But watch that video, The official story is full of omissions and lies, THIS IS EVEN ADMITTED BY THE 9-11 COMMISION LEADERS, so this is not in dispute by anyone except fools who want to hang on to the security of thinking our country is simply what we're told it is.

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 13, 2011 - 10:45am PT
Ron advocates letting the government involve us in phony wars costing trillions and thousands of American lives cause that's what we need to trust them to do for our own good.

But beware the brown people!!!

Millions of Muslims in this country. Anyone here could easily kill bunches of people if they didn't mind dying in the process, any day in fact. Funny that Right wingers (Tim McViegh and their Ilk) seem to do it more frequently than the Muslims.

Immigrants...BOO!!! They have a remarkable record of not fighting us

Peace

Karl
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 13, 2011 - 11:07am PT
There really where no information suggesting that Irak where involved. I am not sure if Bush even claimed this.

...

The American people got really easy fooled if you actually believed any of that propaganda.

Whoa boy raymond, you are still buying it. The irony.

The truth is, many people STILL believe the Iraq war is to avenge the 9-11 attacks.


Riley, so Barry Jennings, just a ghost?

You say Karl's video is full of half truths, does that mean they are lies, or that the other part of the truth is even more unbelievable.

Would love to hear where that video tells lies. Anybody?



And Riley, what amazes me is that you, through all of your research, believe that you still have an objective view of the whole thing. Yet you can still post a long-winded segment from a Fire Battalion Chief that starts out with a big fat lie, one that you didn't even notice. That's not objectivity, my friend.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 01:30pm PT
[quote]
Whoa boy raymond, you are still buying it. The irony.

The truth is, many people STILL believe the Iraq war is to avenge the 9-11 attacks.
[/quite]

I have no idea what you are trying to say. What did I buy? The point of my posts where that not many people outside USA bought into any of the claimed reason for USA to invade Iraq.

Your last sentence just seems to indicate that there are a lot a stupid Americans.

edit: Ok I get it. I still believe that there where muslim terrorists without any connection to Iraq that did what happened on 9/11. I just talked about the connection with Iraq.

I just found the whole thing fascinating. The government pull off the biggest scam in history so they could attack Afganistan and Irak but they couldn't even manage to come up with a connection between the terrorist and Iraq. The also decided to use explosives in wtc 7 before it had even been damaged by something else. Planting wmd's in Iraq was also way to difficult for them.

So the plan is both extremely good and extremely stupid at the same time.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 13, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
Look into my eyes Locker!!!!

You are not listening!!!!!!!


dirtbag

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 02:23pm PT

Yep I see a boeing. And whaddyaknow, there's a tail!

BTW, this was posted on a conspiracy site.

Carry on...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 13, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
Oh, Dirtbag, ya loon, you're gonna believe that? Better to believe all those
goofballs on the freeway who hallucinated the 757 almost hitting their cars!
dirtbag

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
Yeah, I know, it's not as much fun as cooking up conspiracies.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
I think you have really bad imagination to be a conspiracy theorist.

It is impossible for the US government to plant WMD's but they have no problem with rigging 3 large buildings with explosives or fly a missile into pentagon.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:02pm PT
LIHOP Truth . . .

Drip, drip, drip . . .



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4992347

Ex-FBI Interrogator 'Gagged' Over 9/11 Backstory
Edited on Mon Sep-12-11 07:46 PM by Hissyspit
Source: BBC News

12 September 2011 Last updated at 17:27 ET

Ex-FBI interrogator 'gagged' over 9/11 backstory
By Gordon Corera & Steve Swann
BBC News

A former FBI agent who worked at the heart of America's battle against al-Qaeda has told the BBC he is being prevented from telling the truth as he challenges the back story of 9/11 and what has happened since.

 snip -

"It was a combination of frustration, anger, sadness, betrayal. The only thing I recall is I left the office, went across the hall to the bathroom and I just threw up."

He believes the material would have made a difference.

"We were looking for them overseas. They were here. People in our government knew that they were here. We were not told," he says.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14891439






"Spies Knew"
monolith

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
Hey Dirtbag, this modeling also matches up the nose and tail in the security video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
How the hell do you PLANT a WMD?

I planted one just a while ago. It was easy peasy! Thank you Mission figs!
dirtbag

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
Good one monolith...around 2:25 it addresses the tail.


The rest of the video is good too.
monolith

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
Put some wmd's in one of those mobile labs and lead the UN inspectors right to them.

There's so many ways Rox.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:25pm PT
So wmd=anthrax ok. I still don't see a problem. The could just plant the anthrax and lets the people analyze it to also be involved in the planting.

It really isn't like the cover up for the 9/11 conspiracy is that small either. My guess is that that cover up even includes more people that would have been necessary for the planting of anthrax.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:28pm PT

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
What is the name of this mountain?







raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:40pm PT

And it was unnecessary once the war began. Just false alarms from the field testing was enough to convince the troops they were at risk, even when they weren't. Once the war began, who gave a f*#k? Saddamn was already defeated.

I actually believe that a lot of people care. It would probably been much better for bush and america if it looked like the the reason to get to war where actually true.

How many people and how long time did it take to rig the wtc towers with explosives?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
Hey, Granite climber, you left your back site data all over that image. Anybody with thirty seconds can tell you what the mountain name is.

Maybe the data is "planted?"

Here is another view of the same mountain.


raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
You obviously know a lot about wmds... I still don't understand that it would be that hard. The US government could just hire a couple of thousand people for a long time doing a lot of wmds from scratch. It can't be that hard. 9/11 show that people never talk. They could also just fake the investigation of the wmds.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
What does the Pentagon, a Pentagram and the Mountain have in common?



graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:58pm PT
What does this mean?





Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
Ex-FBI interrogator 'gagged' over 9/11 backstory
By Gordon Corera & Steve
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14891439


Ali Soufan was interviewed on 60 Minutes last night by Lara Logan - link to video...

Edited on Mon Sep-12-11 08:19 PM by Bozita
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7380678n&tag=contentMain
;cbsCarousel

It's MUST SEE video, imho.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
"IF you believe the airplanes' impacts and ensuing fires were able to drop the towers alone, without explosive assistance, then how much (or little) time did it take to rig the towers with enough explosives to guarantee, hasten, and/or control their collapse?"

This sounds very circular to me because people seem to see a lot of evidence for large scale demolitions.

The answer to your question is also zero to a lot but of course it could have been planted some explosives to help with the collapse. It would be hard though to happen to have them at the correct floor or otherwise is it necessary to rig many floors.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:18pm PT
28.3 miles away from Heart Butte.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
"... certainly the Pentagon flight/impact was 5.14.

And the guy who was said to have done it couldn't climb 4th class with a belay after months of personal training."

Why should that flying be more difficult than a ordinary landing?
monolith

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
Warbler seems to be making good progress. He seems to be understanding that a building, once the collapse has started, doesn't need any more explosives for the collapse to continue.

No need for explosives to 'pulverize' the concrete or 'bombs in the basement'.

Now he needs to figure out how these explosives were planted at just the right points and how they survived the impact and fires, and why the heck the building just had to collapse.
monolith

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
No it didn't Rox. The last six miles or so were fairly straight and descending.

This corkscrew idea is hilarious. The plane crosses its path once, so it gets called a corkscrew. Not even 360 degrees. LOL!

Just bank the wing, hold it for, OMG, a minute. Only a military trained pilot got hold a bank for that long. INSIDE JOB, INSIDE JOB!!!!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
And the guy who was said to have done it couldn't climb 4th class with a belay after months of personal training."

Anyone who'd fooled around with a flight simulator will see that flying the airplane is the easy part. The hard part is the take off and landing.

The flight teachers and the other students must have thought the hijackers were real idiots and spent a lot of time laughing at them. They had trouble taking off and landing, and didn't show any interest in flying straight and level like you are expected to when flying an airliner full of passenger--and didn't care that they weren't learning this.

The hijackers had the last laugh. All they needed to learn was enough to dive bomb the planes. They could go without learning to take off, land or dealing with most of what is needed to be a safe pilot.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
Rox, how is your eviction going?

Stop procrastinating.

Every minute you spend here, your tenant is getting free board from you.

You know this and that's why you're so bitchy.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
That did hurt. Rokjox saying that I didn't pay attention.

I have a question for you. You said that a pilot with a FAA commercial pilot certificate cant fly an airplane (the 4 class comment). That sounds strange to me can you clarify?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
You ever play around with MS Flight Simulator and crash your plane into buildings?

I've heard that MS Flight Simulator simulates the flight characteristics of planes pretty well. Doing the same thing in a real plane is just as easy, only you need to learn to use the real controls instead of the computer keyboard/mouse/joystick.

raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
"The Pentagon flight (77) made a 270 spral corkscrew dive from about 8,000 feet to end up PERFECTLY at ground level, aligned with the very short Pentagon. If he was suh an idiot at the controls, why didn't he make a low approach from a long ways off? What he managed WAS fantastic if you believe the OCT. Remember he had never ever flown a jet airliner before, much less that giant 757.

He was flying whay over the breakup limits for that plane, at almost sealevel. That speed at ground level would have incredble ground effect trying to push him back up into the sky. Yet, he managed to stay at 20' to 6" AGL in perfect control..."

Something says that you have never flown any kind of aircraft.

Ground effekt trying to push him back into the sky?

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
I'm sure Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, or WHOEVER, had access to the best engineers in the world, the plans for the Trade Towers, unlimited funding, and the highest demolition technology available.

Hundreds of millions of dollars can buy a lot.

The conspiracy theory like to paint the terrorists as being half-witted apes who couldn't tie their own shoes without help.

For example in Karl's 9/11 conspiracy video they make a big point of saying that Bin Laden was on dialysis and operating out of a cave. The truth is that it was always just an unsubstantiated rumour that Bin Laden was on dialysis. There was probably no truth to it, and even if there was, his being on dialysis wouldn't prevent him from planning an attack. Dialysis affects the kidneys, not the brain.

Also, he had extensive facilities on more than one continent, and wasn't operating out of a cave. AFTER the attacks and after his bases were wiped out, he may have spent some time hiding in an underground bunker in Tora Bora.
monolith

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
Warbler, why the heck would Bin Laden go to the enormous risk of planting bombs when he already was killing 500 people by just ramming planes into buildings?
monolith

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
Yep, Rox, I know the flight path.

Just a 270 degree turn, then 6 miles fairly straight in. Hardly a corkscrew.

More like 330 degrees if you count the gentle start.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
http://www.911myths.com/html/flight_path.html

Yes, it really seems like a very complicated flight path...
raymond phule

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
Rokjox, it was proved a couple of days ago that you know nothing about computers but do you know that it exist very good flight simulators that have the same cockpits as the real planes? Do you know that the hijackers trained in that kind of simulators?
monolith

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
The buildings were impacted in much different points Warbler. One much lower than the other. Hardly well planned. And that's why the second impacted tower collapsed first.

4 suicide hijackings, 500 dead and 3 smoking icons would be guaranteed to allow us to do what ever we wanted in the ME. There would still be the same economic impact on the travel industry as well as an enormous financial cost to rebuild the area.

Didn't you see all the horror on peoples faces before the collapse?

So now why go to the trouble and risk of making sure the buildings collapse when the goal is already achieved?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
Rox said, and I quote





Rokjox, it was proved a couple of days ago that you know nothing about computers but do you know that it exist very good flight simulators that have the same cockpits as the real planes? Do you know that the hijackers trained in that kind of simulators?

Rox doesn't know any of this.


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 13, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
I guess bringing them down with airplanes alone is like what, 5.14?

Actually, 5.14 has been done. ;-)
monolith

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
Warbler, glad you don't buy into the idea that the 'neocons did it so they could have their new american century'.

That's who I meant by 'we'.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 13, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
Wow, the LIHOP evidence is really overwhelming and stacking up.

They knew specifics. They knew the targets. They knew it was imminent. They knew these guys were here planning the strike. They really knew it all, and then purposefully hid it and did not share the intelligence with other Federal agencies and withheld this information from The Congressional probe.

The dam of info seems to be breaking. So many leaks now it is really overwhelming . . .


EXCLUSIVE: New Documents Claim Intelligence on Bin Laden, al-Qaeda Targets Withheld From Congress' 9/11 Probe
Monday 13 June 2011
by: Jeffrey Kaye and Jason Leopold, Truthout | Report
http://www.truth-out.org/new-documents-claim-intelligence-bin-laden-al-qaeda-targets-withheld-congress-911-probe/1307986777

"I kept the original classifications on the slides, as historical documents, although the fact that al-Qa'ida was likely to attack the World Trade Center and the Pentagon was clearly no longer classified." (Emphasis added.)

Iron Man further elaborated on this point by stating that high-level DoD officials held discussions about DO5's intelligence activities between the summer of 2000 and June 2001 revolving around al-Qaeda's interest in striking the Pentagon, the World Trade Center (WTC), and other targets.

In other words, the Bush administration was fully aware the terrorist organization had set its sights on those structures prior to 9/11 and, apparently, government officials failed to act on those warnings.

For example, Iron Man states in his letter that in the summer of 2000, DO5 briefed USJFCOM senior intelligence officials and staffers, including the deputy commander in chief, on the "WMD Threat to the U.S."

Iron Man describes a "sensitive," "oral briefing" that took place that summer "indicating that the World Trade Centers #1 and #2 were the most likely buildings to be attacked [by al-Qaeda], followed closely by the Pentagon. The briefer indicated that the worst case scenario would be one tower collapsed onto another."

Furthermore, as he states in his letter, Iron Man was certain that such a scenario was part of a "red cell analysis" discussion that took place prior to the intelligence briefing and included a finding that the buildings "could be struck by a jetliner." He wrote that there was a suggestion about alerting WTC security and engineering or architectural staff, "but the idea was not further explored because of a command climate discouraging contact with the civilian community."


------------------------



Intelligence Withheld From Congress

Even worse, according to Iron Man's letter, the information DO5 had collected about Bin Laden, al-Qaeda and the lead up to 9/11 was withheld from Congress after the House and Senate Intelligence Committees launched an investigation into the attacks.

"When the Justice Department requested all documents relating to 9/11 from DoD in May 2002, I notified [redacted] in the DIA Congressional Affairs office that I retained these documents," Iron Man's letter states. "I spoke to [redacted] JFIC DI1 [an individual who works in the command administrative staff], who informed me that JFIC had already submitted a response without any documents. I was surprised and disappointed when my successor at DO5 [redacted] notified me of the full JFIC non-response. I notified [redacted] in the Congressional Affairs office, and was told to submit the documents as DIA documents, with an explanatory e-mail. I did so on 29 May 2002, presuming (probably correctly) that the documents might be overlooked, since they originated at JFIC. I forwarded copies to [redacted] (who was departing JFIC that week), (his subordinate), and [redacted] (who was also departing JFIC that week)."

A DoD spokesperson did not respond to requests for comment. Spokespeople for the House and Senate Intelligence Committees also did not respond to calls for comment.

After raising his concerns, Iron Man, who from late 2000 to June 2001 was acting head of DO5, was told by his former boss that JFIC's formal response to Congress' inquiries was that "al-Qaida and the 9/11 attacks had been outside JFIC's purview and that JFIC consequently held no material on those issues," which was a lie.

Iron Man's boss said, "He insisted [to officials who responded to the Congressional inquiries] that such was not the case, but was told this was JFIC's response."

Iron Man wrote that "many people" working at government agencies were knowledgeable about JFIC's "role in preparing original analysis" on al-Qaeda, including officials at the CIA, NCIS, USJFCOM, DIA and NSA, whose names were redacted in the letter he sent to DoD's inspector general.

However, after conducting at least 300 interviews and reviewing hundreds of thousands of pages of documents, the final report issued by the House and Senate Intelligence Committees in December 2002, into "Intelligence Community Activities Before And After The Terrorist Attacks Of September 11, 2001" did not cite any of DO5's work on al-Qaeda or Bin Laden or the fact that the intelligence unit was able to identify the terrorist group's top two targets in the US. The later 2004 9/11 Commission Report did not mention DO5 or JFIC.


"Spies Knew" . . .

and apparently they knew a lot and also purposefully and deceitfully withheld it.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 13, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
Man, this is getting depressing.

I mean, we provide videos of firemen telling of their eye-witness experiences with explosions in the WTC towers, coz even telling us that those in NY that day knew WTC 7 was brought down with explosions, all sorts of physical and photographic evidence of explosives. We have those on the 9-11 Commission telling us that the thing was a shame, accounts of folks on the inside, telling us how things were buried and leads left to die. On and on. Tons and tons of hard evidence.

And yet, not one of these bozos can admit to even one of these things as being valid.


So stuck in their belief that the OCT is true and correct, they will do anything, anything I tell you, to put blinders on to anything that would shake their rock-solid boat.




Myself, I need to put blinders on when Locker posts.





I'm at WORK, dammit.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 13, 2011 - 06:32pm PT
Ron wrote

Yes karl,, like the 911 hijackers werent TRAINED in our country... Just like the mexican natl DIDNT just shoot the hell out of Carson city.

wrong Ron. Some of them WERE demonstrably trained in the US, that's one way we know the pilot who hit the pentagon was a horribly bad pilot, cause of this record with US flight schools

peace

karl

monolith

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
Hey K-Man, did you see the Naudet brothers documentary a couple nights ago?

The firefighters in WTC1, after WTC2 collapsed into it, were on the radio saying 'we took a hit on that last explosion', 'did you hear that explosion'?, 'What was that explosion'?

They did not know what happened till after they left WTC1 and it still took them a while to realize it was WTC2 collapsing.

So there were lots of reports of explosions that day. Pretty much any loud noise was referred to as an explosion.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 13, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
Personally, I'm not sure I believe the towers had any demolition, but will say this, I did personally talk to an architect who claimed he worked with Japanese guys on the design of the towers and he said they planned on demolition installation in advance because the real estate market suggested that making it easy to knock something down and rebuild it was smart business. People were making a lot of money tearing down buildings and building new ones. Take it for what it's worth, I don't know myself

Peace

Karl
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
Sorry, I did not read all posts. I am interested, was video released of a plane hitting the pentagon, and if so, link please? Thank you,
coondogger

Trad climber
NH
Sep 13, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
I have a question regarding the planes the terrorists were trained in vs. commercial jet aircraft they flew without remote assistance, by visual reference to their intended targets.
I looked up photos of the cockpits and they are drastically different. Anyone here know how or if it is difficult to fly a commercial jet once it is airborne and running with limited flight education?
Thanks
monolith

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
coondogger, they put the target coordinates into the navigation system, just like they were trained to do on the big simulators.

atchafalaya, look at dirtbags's posts today.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 13, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
FWIW,

no doubt that RokJox knows more about computers than i do. what i inferred a couple days ago was that he knew nothing about the programming them to solve an extraordinary engineering problem on said computers. there is a huge difference between knowing computers and being able to set up the model to solve a twin tower structural analysis and failure. that was the discussion of a couple days ago.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2011 - 09:41pm PT
Naudet brothers documentary

So that explains monolith.

He's a total tool.

Naudet brothers documentary is total lies and bullsh#t.

Anyone that falls for them is a tool and sheep.

Naudet brothers documentary has been totally debunked as insider disinfo.

Momolith is "The TOOL"

Monolith needs to be sent to gitmo and tortured .....

monolith

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
Yep, Werner's right, in a reflection off a window, you could actually see the firefighters reading off of giant cue cards.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 14, 2011 - 12:00am PT
LIHOP . . .


Olbermann: FBI Interrogator Soufan - Cheney's Torture Did Not Work & 9/11 Could Have Been Prevented
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x616501
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uja3ZT8CIk
http://current.com/shows/countdown/videos/ali-soufan-intelligence-failures-911-us-reputation-torture

Ex-FBI Interrogator 'Gagged' Over 9/11 Backstory
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4992347

The Black Banners: The Inside Story of 9/11 and the War Against al-Qaeda [Hardcover]
Ali H. Soufan (Author)
(Author), Daniel Freedman (Contributor)
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Banners-Inside-Against-al-Qaeda/dp/0393079422/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315972464&sr=8-1

An Interrogator Writes 'The Inside Story Of 9/11'
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/13/140401483/an-interrogator-writes-the-inside-story-of-9-11
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 14, 2011 - 12:24am PT
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x321595



Source: Dylan Ratigan Show / Raw Story

Former Sen. Bob Graham calls for new 9/11 investigation
Posted on 09.12.11
By Eric W. Dolan

Former Democratic Senator Bob Graham on Monday called on the U.S. government to reopen its investigation into 9/11 after a report found that links between Saudi Arabia and the hijackers were never disclosed by the FBI to the 2002 joint Congressional intelligence committee investigating the attacks.

“In the final report of the congressional inquiry, there was a chapter related primarily to the Saudi role in 9/11 that was totally censured, every word of the chapter has been withheld from the public,” Graham said on MSNBC’s The Dylan Ratigan Show.

“Some of the other questions we ought to be asking are if we know that the Saudis who lived in San Diego and now apparently in Sarasota received substantial assistance, what about the Saudis who lived in Phoenix, Arizona? Or Arlington, Virginia? … What was happening in those places?”

“I believe these are questions for which there are definitive answers, but the American people and largely their elected representatives have been denied that information.”

Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/09/former-sen-bob-graham-calls-for-new-911-investigation
Reeotch

Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
Sep 14, 2011 - 01:14am PT
No sh#t Riley, and repubs try to accuse BO of kissing ass to foreign leaders.

Not this repub . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NJLzfscMrg

Go Ron, Go Ron . . . !
raymond phule

climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 01:58am PT

What is this sh#t about me not knowing anything about computers?

It seems like I hit a nerve. I might instead have written know nothing about modern computers and what we can do today with computers that we couldn't do 1970. The discussion a couple of days ago clearly showed that.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 14, 2011 - 02:22am PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 14, 2011 - 09:35am PT
BBC: FBI's former alQaeda expert says CIA withheld intel on two 9/11 hijackers; Cheney lied about torture
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x616559
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLO0lZvwr4E
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 14, 2011 - 10:49am PT
"When a simple explanation has been scientifically proven to be true
It was only 3 jets, they did all the damage, nothing more was needed"...


Why some feel it needs to be more than that is beyond me...


First, this statement is a lie: "a simple explanation has been scientifically proven to be true."

The Scientific Method means the models can be analyzed and recreated.

They fudged the numbers and rigged the result. Nobody can duplicate the model because they hid the variables that they used to "prove" the three buildings fell because of the two planes.


Locker, it's not that we "feel" it needs to be more than that, it's that there is so much hard evidence that points to lies, deceit, and cover-ups in the Official Story. And why is that?

Witness all that has taken place as a result of the 9-11 attacks. Does it not bother you that all this was put into motion based on an Official Story that is founded on lies and cover-ups?

It's the facts that all you believers keep ignoring, or making up lunatic scenarios to justify the fact that you can't imagine anything but the OCT.

Karl posts an amazing short detailing some of the more outrageous stories contained in the Official Story. The Believers yell "It's full of half-truths!" Like, OBL might not have been on dialysis and that he wasn't in a cave!

Wow, really taking that thing apart, no?

No.

Why not deal with the real hard stories revealed in that short and not just the comic relief? Because you have nowhere to go when trying to explain the more fantastic truths told in the video.


Hey Dr. F., how about you find that "scientific proof" that shows how the each of the three buildings fell. You obviously seem to know where it is.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 14, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
The most officials guys, the 9-11 commission leaders, state that the most official guys, the CIA lied to them.

This is in dispute by absoutely no-one, however official, that knows anything.

Isn't that enough to prompt even the biggest sheep to question "why are these guys lying"

I mean Bush and Cheney INSISTED on testifying OFF-THE-RECORD, TOGETHER, NOT UNDER OATH, NOT RECORDED.. WHY?

Really, what law enforcement accepts that shit!?

Why not question stuff that stinks so so so badly

Peace

Karl
raymond phule

climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
K-man, I have a question for you. The transcript for the video you like his here http://www.corbettreport.com/911-a-conspiracy-theory/

"... 4 commercial aircraft before flying those planes wildly off course for over an hour without being molested by a single fighter interceptor."

What is he talking about? What is this if not wrong or at best a half truth?

Not a single of those planes flew wildly of course for an hour.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Sep 14, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
I'm not surprised that there was poor communication between all areas of govt. It probably could have been prevented. The govt screws up this sort of stuff all the time. For an example, see the ATF's botched weapons to Mexico sting operation. However, rather than proving some giant conspiracy, this does the opposite for me. I can't believe our govt could pull off something this complicated and keep it a secret.

Similarly, I have no doubt that the neo-cons used this to their advantage to push their foreign policy goals. But Cheney would have tried to use anything to his advantage, so I don't see that as proving anything.


As for those of you that think this was a big conspiracy, what do you have to say about this story:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/f-16-pilot-was-ready-to-give-her-life-on-sept-11/2011/09/06/gIQAMpcODK_story.html?fb_ref=NetworkNews

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 14, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
Good sleuthing raymond.

OK, so now we have a video FULL of lies!

Osama was NOT living in a cave at the time of the attacks, and the planes did not fly for over an hour each before turning around.

I guess this totally invalidates any of the hard points the video makes, eh?

But why not address something of merit, like this:

NIST Denies Access to WTC7 Data

Now why would they do that?? I mean, don't they want everybody to see how they came to the conclusion that small office fires brought down the massive 47-story building.


Now, as W.C. Fields famously said: Run along kid, ya bother me.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
I'm not sure who started all this conspiracy stuff, but I betcha it was a couple of boobs.

WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
Do I have to solve this sh'it all by myself?

Tossers all a ya.

Ya can't "SEE".

But if some boobs show up yer all drooling.

America ... ruled by boobs .....
dirtbag

climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
and a girl-girl hand holding as a bonus!
dirtbag

climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 06:59pm PT
raymond phule

climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 01:16am PT

BTW? Wildly off course seems appropriate verbiage when they wander in circles for hundreds of miles with transponders off. Were any of these planes on course to their announced destinations by the end of the day??

How stupid is it allowed to be? I said flying wildly of course for an hour.

You also proved that you don't have any knowledge about moderns computers and computer programs before. Why should I apologize.

K-man, I was sure that I would get that response from you. It is never the correct point someone shred to pieces.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 02:29am PT
"If you want every detail of how long each flight went off course (yes, about an hour for flight 93, close enough for casual chatting... and they WERE wildly off course as I recall) add them together, and you get SEVERAL hours off course... but that was somebodies else's points, not mine."

Cool 35 minutes is about an hour in rokjox's world.

edit: Sorry, your own link say only 30 minutes but I guess that is close enough to a week for you.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 02:39am PT
"56 minutes for flight 93."

And your source is?

From your own link:
89) 9:35 a.m.: United Airlines Flight 93 goes off course near Cleveland, Ohio where it makes a 135 degree turn, and is now headed to the southeast. United Airlines Flight 93 is 375 miles from Newark, New Jersey and 280 miles from where it was now headed, Washington D.C.

117) 10:06:05 a.m.: According to seismic data, United Airlines Flight 93 crashes near Shanksville, Pennsylvania,

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 15, 2011 - 02:44am PT
FAKT: The F-15's launched from Cape Cod were on AB at Mach 1.8 or so and
got 50 miles from Mahattan only to see the second impact.

FAKT: The F-16's launched from Edwards had no missiles loaded and only
116 rounds of hard points. The pilots were going to simultaneously
ram the tail and the cockpit but again were too late.

If you're calling those pilots liars and conspirators then you are a pathetic POS.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 15, 2011 - 02:53am PT
If you're calling those pilots liars and conspirators then you are a pathetic POS.

If you're calling the firemen who stormed the burning Twin Towers liars for reporting explosions, then YOU are a pathetic POS.


And Reily, while you're at it, explain to us why the fighters were scrambled OUT TO SEA.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 03:19am PT
From rokjox other link
"My conclusion is, the manever looks possible, for guys like me and you. But for Hani? unlikely. He either got REALLY lucky, or someone/something else was flying that plane. "

Didn't a lot of people say that the turn was considered more or less as acro flying and very close to what is even possibly to do in a 757? Here we have a pilot that don't see any problem with the maneuver for a good pilot. Can't you guys have your facts right?

I also found another thing kind of strange. The 757 is supposed to have flown very close to the ground and flown into the low wall of pentagon. People seems to think this show that the pilot did a very good job controlling the airplane. I see no reason that the pilot goal was to perform that maneuver. A crash into any part of pentagon also from above would probably make similar or even more damage. So one possibility is that the pilot actually was about to miss his target but was lucky.

Rokjox, I don't know what to say. I just made a comment in regard to a video that you and other people really liked. The claim in the video was easy to understand and wrong. I have been clear all the time about talking about the time when the airplanes left its defined course and to impact. You are the person that mix about everything and don't seem to be able to understand anything at all.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 05:04am PT
Rokjox, you are clearly not able to understand much if anything. You mix posters, links, theories etc etc. Just one point


I just earlier agreed with some guy that the planes were wildly off course, and flying around for a long time. I really, honestly think that was the guys point, and his only point. I am sorry if the flights were not "off course" for exactly one hour. The times from the liftoff and from the hijackings were considerable to the crashes.

His only point was to suggest that the planes flow wildly of course for such a long time that it is impossibly to believe that real action with fighter jets to not be able to interact with the hijacked airplanes in time.

He tried to do this with using claims that where not true. He used over on hour when not a single of the planes flow wildly of course for over an hour. What he claims is of course important.

But I doubt that that you are going to understand any of this. I am not even sure that you still understand what video I am talking about and you have shown before that you don't seem to understand the purpose of that video.


Where is the pilot that says that?

From your link, pilotsfortruth or something like that.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:01am PT
K-man, What did I say in relation to any firefighters?
So answer my question. You calling the Air Force pilots liars?

How is the fixation with the planes being "off course" relevant to anything?
The two fighters from Cape Cod arrived about 5 minutes late. Even if they
had arrived a little earlier it would have been extremely difficult to
acquire their targets in a still crowded airspace especially with the highjacked
planes' transponders being turned off.

As to the highjackers' piloting skills once a jetliner is at cruise it doesn't
take a Chuck Yaeger to make it go where you want it to go if you have the
nav skills. It is a good thing they weren't good or smart because if they
had been they would have crashed into the WTC buildings down low and
prevented most people from escaping.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:54am PT
Reily,
You posted a long quote from a Fire Battalion Chief that started out saying "Most of these 'explosive' sounds, heard during the collapses were heard after the collapses began."

This is calling the many, many firefighters who reported explosions before the collapse liars. A retired Battalion Chief, ignoring his own. So, it was my belief, that since you posted that article, that you went along with what he said, and that you believe the firemen who reported explosions before the initiation of the building collapse were liars. I don't think that's a leap to make that judgement.

According to Lawyer, 118 firefighters reported explosions. Many were in the buildings when they heard or saw them. So what is it, do you believe them, or do you think they are lying?

Upthread, I posted the transcripts of many of the reports. It goes on for pages. Yet you say that you KNOW 1 million percent, that the building did not fall due to explosives.

So again, I gather again that you think the reports of explosions were lies.

I didn't say a word about the fighter pilots, nor am I weighing in on any of this "planes off course" stuff.

The truth is, there should have been plenty of time for the airplanes to be intercepted--look at the Mineta testimony--and in fact, the fighters were scrambled out over the ocean.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 15, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
Whoa there, K-man, we need to have a reading comprehension discussion.
While I am flattered with the association I think you confuse me with the
esteemed 'Riley', as in Wyna. He'a good egg but for his choice of domicile.

And the planes bit was for Rok's benefit. :-)
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 15, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
Reily!
Whoa, I need to take my medicine. You are right, I'm addressing two different folks as one.

So sorry.

(And to think that I promised to ditch this crazy thread...)


EDIT:

Let me add... For the OCT to be believed, you have to ignore and disregard the reports from many people, and the hard facts in photos and such. Even in the 9-11 Commission Report you can read where things were pushed aside.

It is my desire to look at ALL the evidence and take ALL the reports into account. This includes the fighter pilots statements, as well as Mineta's, the firefighters, yadda yadda.

You cannot cherry-pick what you want in order to come up with the explanation that you want. And this is what the Official Story does.

If that sits OK with you, fine. But for me, way too much sh#t has hit the fan because of 9-11 (loss or rights, militarization of the police, Homeland Security department spending ungodly amounts of cash), and I think we should all know exactly how that was let to happen.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 15, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
I've nevered heard anything about "over the ocean" except that if you are
flying from Cape Cod to NYC at Mach 1.8 in the busiest airspace on the planet
you might well consider a slightly less direct route which would
take you "over the ocean". I seriously doubt that routing would add more
than 2 minutes to the trip at Mach 1.8.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 17, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
Very good resources. Well worth the watch, listen, and detailed look . . .

May Barry Jennings rest in peace. We need to find out the truth and spread his testimony far and wide. May his family be safe.




9/11: A Conspiracy Theory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98
Transcript and sources:
http://www.corbettreport.com/911-a-conspiracy-theory/

http://www.corbettreport.com/

http://www.corbettreport.com/episode-199-35-reasons-to-question-911/





New Information on the Death of 911 Eyewitness Barry Jennings
http://911blogger.com/node/19855

JACK BLOOD AND DYLAN AVERY
43:16 - 2 years ago
TALKING ABOUT BARRY JENNINGS DEATH?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-619417559760176767&hl=en#
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2011 - 04:05pm PT
The official explanation for the collapse of WTC7 by the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST) is false and has been thoroughly debunked.

The "REAL" truthers are the dumbshit idiots who completely believe the "OFFICIAL" version.
Gene

climber
Sep 17, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
It was me. Sorry.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 17, 2011 - 04:18pm PT
Conspiracy folks on the bottom:



WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
Yes they are on the bottom.

The "OFFICIAL" version fools are the real conspiracy truthers who have had what's left of any brain they carry raped and violated ......
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 17, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
The Truth of 9-11-2001 shows up in the most interesting places.

People are waking up.

You OCTers, hope you're not the last to wake-up.

(Edit: but you probably will be.)






Rescue Me 9/11 flashback
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkSm42NHwMc&feature=related

Rescue Me: Franco discusses 9/11 being an inside job Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn1WuA_29dU

Rescue Me: Franco and 9/11 at Protest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X38R32Qj1p0&feature=related

911 Truth Rescue Me- Daniel Sunjata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1jFl2FO6jA&feature=player_embedded
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 17, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
Khrist, another giant crater where a dead horse used to be.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 17, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
Very, very important read and watch . . .

Barry Jennings Uncut
http://911blogger.com/node/16573
Watch the full uncut (20+min.) video with Barry Jennings. He goes through his entire time-line. The explosions in WTC 7 occurred before both towers came down. He goes into great detail on the entire experience.

GOD rest his soul. He told us the truth of what really happened in WTC 7 on 9-11-2001.


Jason Bermas and Alex Jones Discussing BBC Hit Piece
http://www.radiodujour.com/people/bermas_jason
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
Real men read all the links.

The Official version fools never even looked at the 911 commission, FEMA or NIST reports.

They all just sat there and got spoon fed the drool gruel from those reports by some spook posers dressed as authority.

Ya all been owned and are still drooling .....
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2011 - 10:58pm PT
They spent 100 million dollars investigating Clinton's blow job.

They reluctantly spent 3 million dollars investigating the murder of 3000 some folks.

The official version people are way HOMO .....
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 17, 2011 - 11:26pm PT
Hey, Werner, isn't it time to move on to the "Is Sarah Palin Trig's Mother Conspiracy"?
dirtbag

climber
Sep 17, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
The official version people are way HOMO .....




Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 17, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
http://911blogger.com/
Submitted by Orangutan. on Fri, 09/16/2011 - 11:49pm


9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out, Full-length, Pre-Release-v1.3; Low-Res:
Documentary, Experts Speak Out, Richard Gage AIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw-jzCfa4eQ&feature=player_embedded






Wow, awesome job ae911truth.org !!!


Excellent and thorough documentary. It's a must see.


Investigate 9-11-2001.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2011 - 12:50am PT
Word on street says Skipt did it with a suitcase nuke in a halliburton briefcase .......
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Sep 18, 2011 - 02:39am PT
Have we determined if it was Werner that fired the "missle" yet?
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 18, 2011 - 03:45am PT
Colonel Mustard in the Dining Room with a Candlestick.....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 18, 2011 - 11:26am PT
Sep 17, 2011 - 08:58pm PT

http://911blogger.com/
Submitted by Orangutan. on Fri, 09/16/2011 - 11:49pm


9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out, Full-length, Pre-Release-v1.3; Low-Res:
Documentary, Experts Speak Out, Richard Gage AIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw-jzCfa4eQ&feature=player_embedded






Wow, awesome job ae911truth.org !!!


Excellent and thorough documentary. It's a must see.


Investigate 9-11-2001.



If you children can remove yourselves just for a moment from your immature and childish ad hominem attacks and ways, and grow some courage you just might learn something. Facing the truth is part of the healing process. Until you do that you will forever be lost, feel completely disconnected, and live in fear and lash-out in hate.

Check-out the full length video above. It completely goes through WTC 7 and the evidence. Also near the end they talk to many psychologists regarding peoples' inability to face 9-11 reality no matter how dark it maybe.

We definitely have that going on to a great degree here on ST. One of the tale-tell signs are continual immature and meaningless attacks against those who tell you these truths that inflame cognitive dissonance within you. You strike-out, bully, be-little, throw ad hominem attacks against those who will tell you something contrary to your make-belief lives and paradigms.


Grow-up and grow some testicles.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 18, 2011 - 02:50pm PT

The Pentagon would be able to stop the BS with one simple release of a video of the plane.

LOL and you and the rest of the truthers are going to trust the validity of that video? LOL


The reality is that there is no proof of a plane hitting it. Nothing relating to that even even makes sense.

So eyewitness reports, dna evidence, plane parts, the video that i released etc is not evidence? I believe that I just proved my point above...
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Sep 18, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
I am curious how those who believe a missile hit the Pentagon deal with the many many eyewitnesses who saw the plane. I was there, and while I did not see it, I know people who saw it. There are many records of people who saw it. Do you believe a plane and a missile hit it?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html

A genuine question.

edit: Also, as someone who was there in the awful midst of it all, why does no one wonder about all the explosions from the Pentagon? I heard them with my own ears. Word on the street as we were fleeing was that they were car bombs. That turned out not to be true - but the explosions were real. Why don't these explosions draw questions?
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Sep 18, 2011 - 03:28pm PT
dirtbag

climber
Sep 18, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
Yep, I am telling you that if the Gov't had a video of the plane hitting the Pentagon they would show it.




There's a boeing tail recorded on a govt video.

You've watched too many episodes of the X-files.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 18, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
I am curious how those who believe a missile hit the Pentagon deal with the many many eyewitnesses who saw the plane. I was there, and while I did not see it, I know people who saw it. There are many records of people who saw it. Do you believe a plane and a missile hit it?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html

A genuine question.

edit: Also, as someone who was there in the awful midst of it all, why does no one wonder about all the explosions from the Pentagon? I heard them with my own ears. Word on the street as we were fleeing was that they were car bombs. That turned out not to be true - but the explosions were real. Why don't these explosions draw questions?




"Do you believe a plane and a missile hit it?"


The evidence that we now know is that a large commercial like aircraft approached the Pentagon North of the Citgo Gas Station and flew just over the Pentagon without striking the Pentagon. Then simultaneously something else smaller, at ground level and fast perhaps with explosives on-board, slammed into the Pentagon along the OCT path South of the Citgo Gas Station blowing up that portion of the Pentagon. Was it a missile? We don't know.

All of the evidence does indeed point to this massive sleight of hand occuring.



















The video that they released showed us only this, something much smaller than a 757 . . .










What we sould have seen at full scale but didn't. This is CGI and not real footage, but you get the point. We didn't see this because a 757 did not approach the Pentagon South of the Citgo Gas Station. Something else did and much smaller:








dirtbag

climber
Sep 18, 2011 - 05:05pm PT
Klimmer, is this the same slight of hand that used swine flu vaccines and chem trails to kill us all?

monolith

climber
Sep 18, 2011 - 05:13pm PT
No, Klimmer, you forget the security camera is only about one frame per second.

Have your physics students explain to you on your blackboard why your recreated version is impossible.

And I like the way you make up a story that the plane had bombs to account for the explosions Crimpie heard. After all, loud noises always means bombs, in Trutherland.

Now why would the NWO allow a video of a much smaller plane be released, Klimmer?

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Sep 18, 2011 - 05:37pm PT
Klimmer - thanks for addressing my sincere question.

How do others explain this type of stuff? Would a missile leave this type of debris? Would an AA jet leave this type of debris?

WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2011 - 07:46pm PT
Internet pictures are NOT evidence.

You have ever been involved in an actual crime scene?

These Google armchair crime scene investigators here like monolith, etc are whacked.





Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Sep 18, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
I was there Werner. I was in DC and saw some of the things (no, not that actual piece of debris in the foreground). And I saw and heard things that never made the media.

But honestly, that doesn't matter a bit because I am not trying to change anyone's beliefs about this event with the photo or my thoughts. In fact, I've not shared by own personal thoughts about it.

I really am just interested in how people reach their conclusions.
monolith

climber
Sep 18, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
It's partially behind the utility box, silly boy. The rest is in the dark horizon part. The tail is clearly visible because it sticks into the blue horizon.

I debunked Klimmer on the frames per second. You are not going to get more then one frame of the plane, from a one or two fps security camera.

The Truther CGI obviously enlarged the plane as well.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Sep 18, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
I lost some friends that day, how dare you say that America was behind it. Try seeing the world, then give your theories on why America is such an evil and manipulating place. I think you will come back home, and thank god for the home we have. Go America!!! Ol' number one is what I think when the plane wheels hit the tarmac. "Good to be home".
monolith

climber
Sep 18, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
All you have to do is place a paper along the path of the top of the tail in the CGI version. You get two frames, thus a straight line.

The pentagon is 77 feet high, the top of the tail is 44 feet off the ground with the landing gear down.

Yet, the straight line intersects the top of the pentagon at the crash point. LOL!

Just the tail section alone is 44ft

Classic Truther BS. The top of the tail is 44 feet off the ground with the landing gear down, as in the height required for hanger entry clearance.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2011 - 11:12pm PT
I'm gonna email Cheney.

He's gonna gimme the goods.

I'll get that smoking gun now fer sure.

You just wait'n see fellas .....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 19, 2011 - 01:19am PT
All you have to do is place a paper along the path of the top of the tail in the CGI version. You get two frames, thus a straight line.

The pentagon is 77 feet high, the top of the tail is 44 feet off the ground with the landing gear down.

Yet, the straight line intersects the top of the pentagon at the crash point. LOL!


Just the tail section alone is 44ft

Classic Truther BS. The top of the tail is 44 feet off the ground with the landing gear down, as in the height required for hanger entry clearance.



I can agree with you that the CGI is not perfect, but it is far more accurate than the very small craft or whatever it is racing just above the ground in the Pentagon security camera. That can not be a 757 caught in the footage of the Pentagon security camera. Not even close to the size of a 757.

Also your arguement that the 44 ft. is hangar height for the 757 with landing gears down is really, really lame.

The engines of the 757 hang below the wings. Since there were no marks left in "The Pentalawn" by either massive engines hanging far below the wings of the fairly massive 757, we can assume it had to be flying above the ground without the engines coming into contact with the lawns of the Pentagon. How much higher? 1 foot? 2 feet? 3 feet? You're back up to 44 ft and probably more than likely even higher than that.

The unbelievable miracles and violations of the laws of physics that occurred that day on 9-11. And then to top it off the fighter jet flying abilities of the Terrorist pilot who couldn't even fly a Cessna, yet he manages somehow to fly a commercial 757 into the Pentagon square into the only reinforced portion of the Pentagon, while flying impossible ground effect and skimming just above the ground for a great distance so that there isn't even a scratch on the Pentalawn.

It's easier to believe in the Tooth-fairy than the OCT as published by the 9-11 Commission Report.


From this report:




These illustrations:

raymond phule

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:18am PT

The evidence that we now know is that a large commercial like aircraft approached the Pentagon North of the Citgo Gas Station and flew just over the Pentagon without striking the Pentagon.

So a lot of people see a low flying plane flying close to the ground in the direction of pentagon but no one sees a low flying airplane flying away from pentagon after something crashed into pentagon?

I guess that no one in Washington looked in the direction of pentagon when they heard a loud noise from pentagon.

Once again. You have someone doing a lot of works with this operation. Planting explosives, flying missiles etc. They also obvious do things that could very easily clearly prove that something fishy was going on. Have a low flying plane over washington, detonating bombs in wtc 7 before anything hit wtc 7 etc. Yes, that make much sense.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 19, 2011 - 08:59am PT


Raymond,


You're being dishonest. We have posted the above video evidence many times. The complete story is very well known now with very reliable eye-witness testimony. And separate eyewitnesses who didn't know one another gave the same exact testimony from different vantage points.

Eyewitnesses did see a jet overfly the Pentagon. There are jets near the Pentagon all the time. What is that International Airport right near the Pentagon called again? It wouldn't be too out of the ordinary to see a massive jet near the Pentagon.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 09:23am PT

Eyewitnesses did see a jet overfly the Pentagon. There are jets near the Pentagon all the time. What is that International Airport right near the Pentagon called again? It wouldn't be too out of the ordinary to see a massive jet near the Pentagon.

What can I say? In regard to your pic I have to say to you that Pentagon is not equal to a citgo gas station. Do you understand that?

Do you have an eyewitness account of someone seeing an airplane flying low over pentagon (note not citgo gas station).
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 09:46am PT
Hilarious Klimmer, the two pentagon sec cameras and the hotel security cameras did not record the 'flyover'.

And none of the Citgo witnesses report a flyover. A few just disagree with the path, while other Citgo witnesses agree with the accepted path. Perfectly understandable for people recounting a chaotic event years before.

None of the commuters on the heavy morning commute only a few hundred yards from the building report a flyover, or two low flying aircraft.

Flyover debunked by Truthers
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:01am PT
National Airport is nearby.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 19, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
Mono's article discusses a "theory" about a flyover--fair enough.

Since Mono would agree that a Boeing hit the Pentagon, then surely his logic would tell him that LOCAL (meaning very familiar with directions from their regular gas station) accounts of where the Boeing flew over the Citgo were obviously CORRECT.



See Mono, sometimes even you can follow your own logic...


...did you get what I said above?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 19, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
Very clearly the evidence shows that a large aircraft flew low and slow North of the Citgo gas station and could not have made the damage relating to the OCT to the Pentagon and then flew over the Pentagon. The evidence also shows that something did come very low and fast along the OCT path that was much smaller in size that did make the much smaller damage to the Pentagon and much less damage than a 757 would have done. Both events happened simultaneously or mere moments apart.

The black-box data released by FOIA confirms that the flight path was much higher than the OCT can account for, but fits very well with the over-flight path of the craft North of the Citgo Gas station.

Witnesses saw an aircraft over fly the Pentagon.

We know no calls made from flight 77 made contact with anyone = 0 minutes. They lied about the phone calls. This came out in the evidence in court and the FBI has had to admit this.

Survivors came out of the Pentagon hole right after the impact and were witnessed to the fact that there was nothing there that indicates a jet slammed into the Pentagon. She came through that hole with her baby. They tried to get her to change her story by telling her what to say. They have threatened her.

The investigation was a sham. They did not follow NTSB rules and regulations for aviation crashes and investigations. No hard evidence of wreckage at the Pentagon has been linked to AA Flight 77 via serial numbers on any parts. They will not release this data.

Many security videos of the Pentagon impact were confiscated. There have been numerous FOIA requests to release them. They will not release them. Why? What are they covering up? What are they hiding?

The cover up goes on and on . . . What a load of USDA 100% Bovine Dung.

See Jesse Ventura’s great show on 9-11: The Pentagon. He goes into and goes over most of this information.




http://thepentacon.com/

http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/

http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/nsa.html

http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/getnsa.html



http://pilotsfor911truth.org/

The following 3 films you can watch right there on their homepage:

Flight Of American 77

American 77 Flight Path version2 - In 3D

Interview with LtCol. Jeff Latas
Former USAF Accident Investigation President

dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
Lookey there...a Boeing tail...

monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
Mojede,most of the 'local's at the Citgo agree with the common accepted flight path.

Chaotic events recalled years later will always reveal 'anomalies'. Exploit them as much as you can, cuz that's all you have left.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 02:35pm PT

Witnesses saw an aircraft over fly the Pentagon.

So I have your word klimmer? Lol. I guess that you are not going to show me any details about these witnesses.
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 02:44pm PT

we have never claimed that we have a witness that claims they saw 'the' plane fly over

from http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/2007/11/cit-craig-ranke-aldo-marquis-and.html

raymond phule

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
Klimmer you are a teacher. Is is ok for your students to answer questions in the following ways.

The answer can be found in the book xxx.
The answer can be found on the internet.
The answer can be found in the following 2 hours of youtube videos.

I am just curious because it seems that you are using that tactic most of the time. You rarely answer questions or make an argument your self. Instead you just link to many long youtube videos and sometimes general large internet sites without even showing where the information is located.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
Mono--you are trying to explain why an observation from a trained officer is bunk, this doesn't follow.

What you said that follows is that most of the locals there were either confused or mistaken.



You trust the confused, I trust the calm and trained--pretty simple, really.
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
The trained police officer also points in the wrong direction when asked to point to the knocked down poles. haha!

Most of the locals agree with the standard accepted route. CIT only got a few to point north and won't release their raw footage of the others.

You are very gullible, Mojede.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:36pm PT
Klimmer would like us to believe that he is modest high school science teacher by the name of Glenn Simpson.

But who is "Glenn Simpson" really?

What is his real agenda?
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
Well sh#t, if Mr. Illuminati is asking "Who is Klimmer?" then we have a genuine mystery on our hands.

BTW, you're swine flu vaccine didn't work so hot.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:44pm PT
So, to sum it up, the US government:

1 - hijacked an American Airlines Jet

2 - killed off the crew and passengers

3 - used voice-morphing technology that exactly mimics the voices of those passengers and made some phone calls to their families saying they were on a hijacked jet

3b - bribed the seatphone operators to say they had received these calls

4 - flew the jet over the pentagon

5 - launched a missile that hit at the same time as the jet flew over and the same location (one of those jet-avoiding missiles)

6 - bribed the local air traffic controllers to say that the jet disappeared

7 - hurried down the the pentagon after the impact to spread DNA from the missing passengers and airplane parts around

8 - bribed all the witnesses who saw the missile to say they saw a jet explode.

9 - scurried around collecting all video and photos

10 - bribed first responders to who saw the FBI spreading airplane and body parts around

11 - bribed a few hundred structural engineers, explosive engineers, civil engineers to write reports supporting the government's version

12 - and had this perfectly timed with 3 other elaborate but very different and successful inside plots, all of which are still fooling most of America. Damn fools, those believers.


What did I miss? Do I get a prize?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
You Believers think you are so clever, "debunking" everything the Truthers throw at you.

But you lie to yourselves because you never actually address any of the real hard questions.

All the photo evidence and such at the Pentagon, they can be argued until everybody is blue in the face--nothing will ever be settled there because of the stonewalling by the Pentagon to release tapes.

But Believers, try some of these arguments on for size, you cannot debate your way from these facts, any one of which will unravel your idea that the Official Story is true and correct:

35 Reasons to Question 9/11

Thanks Klimmer for the original posting of this link.



Call us Truthers anything you want, but it y'all Believers who bury your heads in the sand.

Go on, read the 35 reasons, and ask yourself how stupid you really are to believe the crap that you took as if it were delivered on a silver spoon.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
cleo, you missed the very basis for The Truth Movement:

Investigate 9-11.


You're an idiot if you try to summarize what happened on that day without first investigating. Geeze, what a bozo.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
So, to sum it up, the US government:

1 - hijacked an American Airlines Jet

2 - killed off the crew and passengers

3 - used voice-morphing technology that exactly mimics the voices of those passengers and made some phone calls to their families saying they were on a hijacked jet

3b - bribed the seatphone operators to say they had received these calls

4 - flew the jet over the pentagon

5 - launched a missile that hit at the same time as the jet flew over and the same location (one of those jet-avoiding missiles)

6 - bribed the local air traffic controllers to say that the jet disappeared

7 - hurried down the the pentagon after the impact to spread DNA from the missing passengers and airplane parts around

8 - bribed all the witnesses who saw the missile to say they saw a jet explode.

9 - scurried around collecting all video and photos

10 - bribed first responders to who saw the FBI spreading airplane and body parts around

11 - bribed a few hundred structural engineers, explosive engineers, civil engineers to write reports supporting the government's version

12 - and had this perfectly timed with 3 other elaborate but very different and successful inside plots, all of which are still fooling most of America. Damn fools, those believers.


What did I miss? Do I get a prize?

Yep, that about sums it up.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
Cleo,
I'll buy you a beer for laying it out so clearly and logically.
Now I get it.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
Cleo, you have just won a new Rube Goldberg Pencil Sharpener.


Open window (A) and fly kite (B). String (C) lifts small door (D) allowing moths (E) to escape and eat red flannel shirt (F). As weight of shirt becomes less, shoe (G) steps on switch (H) which heats electric iron (I) and burns hole in pants (J). Smoke (K) enters hole in tree (L), smoking out opossum (M) which jumps into basket (N), pulling rope (O) and lifting cage (P), allowing woodpecker (Q) to chew wood from pencil (R), exposing lead.

Emergency knife (S) is always handy to sharpen the pencil in case opossum or the woodpecker gets sick and can't work.

Pretty simple, right?
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
You are very anonymous, Monolith--and since you buy the official version of the events 100%, your Government controlled mind will serve you well...
raymond phule

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:05pm PT

But Believers, try some of these arguments on for size, you cannot debate your way from these facts, any one of which will unravel your idea that the Official Story is true and correct:

35 Reasons to Question 9/11

Nothing about missiles hitting pentagon in those 35 reasons (unless I missed it).

So what do the answers to all those 35 reasons prove? That the government lies, don't always work that weel or that a huge conspiracy was going on flying missiles into pentagon and demolished a couple of buildings?

I am more and more fascinated how the words of Barry Jennings is taken as some kind of gospel that is definitely true.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
How about this:
This dumb-assed chick named cleo insults hundreds of thousands folks who don't buy the crap that the US Gov't spoon fed them. Even though the folks who wrote the Official report admit it's a crock. Yet cleo gets a bunch of idiot retards to go "yeah cleo, that's be most concise thing I've read on this." Even though it's horseshit through and through.

Perfect.


Can somebody with a brain address the real things the Truthers surface?


Like, how come cleo didn't mention Barry, or Mineta?


[Actually, I know why.]
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:07pm PT
skipt, easy eh?

Try any one of the 35 reasons...should be a snap for an Einstein like you.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
Can somebody with a brain address the real things the Truthers surface?

That conspiracy folks like to go down the rabbit hole of kookiness?
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
4 - flew the jet over the pentagon


Nobody says really what your strawman says.

Pay attention RokJox.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
dirtbag, and all this time, I thought you had a brain. So sad to learn otherwise.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:16pm PT
Sorry K-man, but the 9/11 fairy tales you promote are utter nonsense.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
I'm just trying to understand what it is, exactly, that you believe. Summarizing up all the stuff you guys tell me, and nothing more.


Instead of answering my question, you:

a) resort to insults (again)
b) change the subject (again)



But hey, why the whole plane flyover thing? Why didn't they use holograms like they did at the Twin Towers?
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
You guys don't want an honest opinion then don't keep pushing it on a public forum.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
dirtbag, you're clueless. I have not promoted a single fairy tale.

That's why cloe's list is so laughable/dishonest.

Guess you flunked the reading test.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
cleo, you start off throwing insults. Like this one:

So, to sum it up, the US government:

1 - hijacked an American Airlines Jet



Please point to a single post that states the US Gov't hijacked a plane.


So don't go acting all innocent like, you started with the insults.
Again.

dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
Oh, so now you admit yours is just an opinion?



Because some of these other guys had some evidense you seem to be ignoring ....

... ot they thought they did.

But yours is just internet opinion, thank you for clarifying that.


LOL!

Says the King Opinionator here...



dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
Ruh-roh, better duck Skip...here it comes...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
Why would Obama agree to Osama dead rather than a very public trial?

very simple. alive, he would have been a royal PITA. all terrorists would have wanted to capture americans and barter for his life. hell, we couldnt even try some second rate guys from gitmo in NYC without getting everyone in an uproar.

it was the smartest thing to do.....but since you are inferring a coverup, why would obama cover up something that bush started???? why would he implicate himself in something that he never had anything to do with???
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
We are of the New American Revolution and we are extraditing you to Labia

seems to me wes has been wanting to be extradited to some labia....
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
seems to me wes has been wanting to be extradited to some labia....


Shhhh...that's supposed to be a secret extradition program.

Loose lips sink ships.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
Loose lips sink ships.

i think i will let wes post a picture of loose lips, but for a small digression on security....




k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
I don't think ...


And therein lies the problem.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
What is the problem? Selective quoting of others?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:38pm PT
so that means I like them.

you just like to hang the flag on your pole....

cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
Revised summary list of all the arguments the truthers are making, thanks for the corrections, changes from k-man's concerns are now included in italics.

So, to sum it up, some unknown entity (with a lot money for bribes and access to the FBI, FAA, Pentagon Security, Air Traffic Controller Lists,ETC (incorrect before: US Gov't)

1 - kidnapped passengers and crew of folks who left home to board American Airlines Jet (incorrect before: hijacked AA Jet)

2 - killed off the crew and passengers

2b - bribed American Airlines to say they were missing a jet

3 - used voice-morphing technology that exactly mimics the voices of those passengers and made some phone calls to their families saying they were on a hijacked jet

3b - bribed the seatphone operators to say they had received these calls

4 - flew the jet over the pentagon

5 - launched a missile that hit at the same time as the jet flew over and the same location (one of those jet-avoiding missiles)

6 - bribed the local air traffic controllers to say that the jet disappeared

7 - hurried down the the pentagon after the impact to spread DNA from the missing passengers and airplane parts around

8 - bribed all the witnesses who saw the missile to say they saw a jet explode.

9 - scurried around collecting all video and photos

10 - bribed first responders to who saw the fake FBI spreading airplane and body parts around

11 - bribed a few hundred structural engineers, explosive engineers, civil engineers to write reports supporting the government's version

12 - and had this perfectly timed with 3 other elaborate but very different and successful inside plots, all of which are still fooling most of America.

until... (I forgot about this)

An 18 year old kid named Dylan Avery uncovered it all and made a movie about it?



Ok, what did I get wrong this time? Which part of that, specifically, do you NOT believe. After all, from what I've read here, that list summarizes *why* you think 9-11 should be investigated (again). And I'm just an idiot, bozo, and dumb-ass (k-man outed me), so help me out!


I'm also too dumb to understand this -> Why, if all the previous reports are so faulty, would you think a new investigation would be different? Isn't the unknown entity that did all the bribing before still around?




dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
Cleo = Illuminati
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
cleo, where does any Truther mention "bribes"?

To me, your list attempts to put the cart before the horse. That is, you attempt to figure out what happened before uncovering all the facts surrounding the events. In other words, doing a real investigating of the events, where the people involved in the supposed cover-ups are questioned to find out why they did the things that seem, on a casual look, to be a cover up. (Get it??)

Your list of make-believe events is meant to make the Truthers seem like idiots, and therefor you list is a list of insults.

But I suppose insulting others comes so easily to you that you don't even recognize that you are being insulting. How foolish does that make you look? To me, pretty darn foolish.

Over and over, the Truthers on this thread have stated what we've seen in eye witness reports, photographic evidence, written by scholars, and even what those in the 9-11 Commission and NIST have written. All you Believers can do is call us Kooks--shooting the messengers if you will.

Wes says he "doesn't think." Yes, that's the problem. Because people don't think the Gov't can organize and/or carry out a plot as extensive as the 9-11 attacks, they brush of any evidence that points to the Gov't doing just that. (Get that dirtbag?)

"I don't think the Gov't can do that," so you Truther guys are idiots for thinking they can.

Well I'm here to tell you, we are not idiots. But you Believers have your heads in the sand, and even admit it. "I don't think..." Geeze, what more proof do you need that you are not objectively looking at what is in front of you?

And cleo, piss off with your insults.


PS. Wes, that is not a selective quote, it's a misquote. What an ass.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:57pm PT

Wes says he "doesn't think." Yes, that's the problem. Because people don't think the Gov't can organize and/or carry out a plot as extensive as the 9-11 attacks, they brush of any evidence that points to the Gov't doing just that. (Get that dirtbag?)

Pot calling Kettle-Man...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
dirtbag Sir, where have I ignored what folks have given reports of what they saw [or ignored evidence, photographic or other]?

If you can't come up with that, GFY.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:03pm PT
dirtbag Sir, where have I ignored what folks have given reports of what they saw?

If you can't come up with that, GFY.

Only the umpteen number of photos, videos, and eyewitness accounts folks have posted showing that it was a plane crash. Which you choose to ignore in favor of a fanciful scenario that resembles a poorly written X-Files script.

But thanks for telling me to go F-myself, which actually doesn't sound half bad. As Woody Allen once said, "I was the best I ever had."
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
Sorry pal, I haven't ignored those reports.

Looks like you're not as good of a lay as you imagined.


EDIT: And while you're at it, can you tell my what "fanciful scenario" I've imagined or purported to be true? Love to hear what you thought you read.
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
Good one Wes. Just asking questions right?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
The most important thing is that you cannot disprove any of this.


No, the most important thing is the 9-11 Commission could "prove" that Wes' poodle story was true, if that was what they wanted to do.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
...weeee the people have no choice but to assume they were in on it.


Not thinking and then making assumptions. Brilliant.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
Wes has hit the nail on the head. Yet the conspiracy theorists will continue with their march of stupidity.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
I don't see how I'm insulting you if I'm just summarizing everything.

Hang on, since there were no bribes, I need to some up with a new theory as to why all those people kept their mouths shut. I'll try to be more general...
OR

Trad climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
Ceo love your post and Wes I like your deductive reasoning.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
EDIT: And while you're at it, can you tell my what "fanciful scenario" I've imagined or purported to be true? Love to hear what you thought you read.

Start with "Video of Missile Hitting the Pentagon?" and go from there.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
Verison 3! Thanks k-man for the feedback! Main complaint was the postulation of bribery to get everyone to cooperate, so we'll go with *convinced* instead. Ver 3 changes now underlined:

So, to sum it up, some unknown entity (very convincing entity (wrong: money for bribes) and access to the FBI, FAA, Pentagon Security, Air Traffic Controller Lists,ETC (incorrect before: US Gov't)

1 - kidnapped passengers and crew of folks who left home to board American Airlines Jet (incorrect before: hijacked AA Jet)

2 - killed off the crew and passengers

2b - convinced American Airlines to say they were missing a jet

3 - used voice-morphing technology that exactly mimics the voices of those passengers and made some phone calls to their families saying they were on a hijacked jet

3b - convinced the seatphone operators to say they had received these calls

4 - flew the jet over the pentagon

5 - launched a missile that hit at the same time as the jet flew over and the same location (one of those jet-avoiding missiles)

6 - convinced the local air traffic controllers to say that the jet disappeared

7 - hurried down the the pentagon after the impact to spread DNA from the missing passengers and airplane parts around

8 - convinced all the witnesses who saw the missile to say they saw a jet explode.

9 - scurried around collecting all video and photos

10 - convinced first responders to who saw the fake FBI spreading airplane and body parts around

11 - convinced a few hundred structural engineers, explosive engineers, civil engineers to write reports supporting the unknown entity's version

12 - and had this perfectly timed with 3 other elaborate but very different and successful inside plots, all of which are still fooling most of America.

until... (I forgot about this)

An 18 year old kid named Dylan Avery uncovered it all and made a movie about it?


Does this match your understanding? Just trying to resolve all the evidence here.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
The whole thing is a big joke.
Gene

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
Cleo,

Thanks for making this inane thread fun again.

g

EDIT: I'll be the guy in YV tomorrow with the tin foil hat. Please be gentle with me.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
Oh, I get it...

Your list of make-believe events is meant to make the Truthers seem like idiots, and therefor you list is a list of insults.

It's the make-believe events. But wait, if they're make-believe, then why are you guys running around trying to prove them? I'm just summing them up. Heck, the title of the whole thread is "Video of Missile Hitting the Pentagon", and one of the things on my list is the missile hitting the pentagon. I didn't make THAT one up!


So... there you have it... make-believe events!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:48pm PT
OK, I admit, I didn't read much of the BS that cleo posted in her revised list, because, well I could tell it was BS. But I reread it and I now think it's best to respond to her questions:

She states:

After all, from what I've read here, that list summarizes *why* you think 9-11 should be investigated (again).

This proves that what she wrote was complete BS because nothing in her list summarizes why the Truthres believe 9-11 should be investigated. Not again, but for the first time.

Here's her BS, and my replies:


1 - kidnapped passengers and crew of folks who left home to board American Airlines Jet (incorrect before: hijacked AA Jet)

I'm not sure many folks think that the planes were not taken in some way. Certainly no reputable Truther site denies this. What's the point here?

2 - killed off the crew and passengers

Um, what? You read this where?

2b - bribed American Airlines to say they were missing a jet

Um, what? You read this *where*?

3 - used voice-morphing technology that exactly mimics the voices of those passengers and made some phone calls to their families saying they were on a hijacked jet

Um, what? You read this where?


3b - bribed the seatphone operators to say they had received these calls

OK, this is getting old. Where on Earth did you read this. More made up BS is my conclusion. Come on cloe, what is your point here, making all this stuff up?

4 - flew the jet over the pentagon

Well, there were eye witnesses who claimed they saw this. Why not look into it? I know why, because you want to believe only the folks you want to believe.

5 - launched a missile that hit at the same time as the jet flew over and the same location (one of those jet-avoiding missiles)

Show me where this was stated. Otherwise, more made up BS from the [small] mind of cloe.

6 - bribed the local air traffic controllers to say that the jet disappeared


Let's see, you stated "from what I've read here, that list summarizes *why* you think 9-11 should be investigated." This implies that the list you give us is somehow supported by things you're read.

Come on, how about one small reference to any post that claims anything like this. OR are you still BS'ing?

7 - hurried down the the pentagon after the impact to spread DNA from the missing passengers and airplane parts around

Ho boy ...

8 - bribed all the witnesses who saw the missile to say they saw a jet explode.

Are you beginning to see a pattern of lies?

9 - scurried around collecting all video and photos

I don't know about photos, but videos were collected. Or are you denying this fact?

10 - bribed first responders to who saw the fake FBI spreading airplane and body parts around

If cloe was a 4-year old, we'd say "what a cute imagination." But for an adult, we call them Liars.

11 - bribed a few hundred structural engineers, explosive engineers, civil engineers to write reports supporting the government's version

Really, you read this? Or are you just still lying. How many is that now?

12 - and had this perfectly timed with 3 other elaborate but very different and successful inside plots, all of which are still fooling most of America.

Ummm, do I need a response for this? Let me know.


Ok, what did I get wrong this time?

Did I answer your question to your satisfaction?
Now, how about answering one of mine: Why do you make up so much BS?
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
2 - killed off the crew and passengers

Um, what? You read this where?

Dude, the claim is the dna was planted in the Pentagon. Yep, we'll just take their dna, and let them go as long as they promise not to tell anyone they are still alive.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
cloe (and others),


Here is a hint:

35 Reasons to Question 9/11


This is not a list of made up events, a la cloe.

This is a list of 35 facts--many point to obvious cover-ups.

Take a few of these and see if that sits well with you. Or are you going to brush it off or just think it's odd, and move on?

Here's a few of my favorites:


19 – The Bush administration tried desperately to prevent any type of investigation into the attacks, but when it finally caved under immense public pressure Bush attempted to appoint Henry Kissinger to head the commission, causing even the mainstream media to ask whether this was an attempt at a cover-up.


#20 – The Bush administration actually wrote a memo to the 9/11 commission co-chairmen telling them that it would be “crossing the line” for the commission to even attempt to talk to the terrorist detainees upon whose testimony the commission relied.


#21 – Even the 9/11 Commission co-chairmen have admitted that the commission was set up to fail.


#22 – There are numerous facts demonstrating how the 9/11 Commission was obstructed in its investigation into the attacks by its own members.



Do you want to deal in a make-believe world, like cloe, or do you want to deal with facts. Your choice.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
OMG, you have opened my eyes. All this time I thought my dog couldn't fly, he was doing air shows disguised as a 74 year old real estate agent.

Look at the facts:

My dog Willie was nowhere to be seen during the time of the crash.

The plane crashed into the VIP section.

The pilot was Jimmy Leeward, 74 years old.

Willie is 74 in doggy years and a hunting dog, who instinctively prefers the "leeward" side of his prey.

Willie Jimmy Tapangararua, often just referred to as Willie Jimmy, is a Vanuatu politician with the National United Party and the country's first ambassador to China.

My office mate from China is terrified of Willie... I thought it was weird at first, but it all makes sense now.

Vanuatu was a tax haven and a "flag of convenience" country, until about the time Willie Jimmy became ambassador.

There is no question that a full investigation into the tragic Reno air show crash will reveal that Willie, currently hiding in a cave under my porch, deliberately crashed that plane and faked his own death in order to take out a Vanua'aku Party member.

Judging by the reaction from Nevada politicians, there is no doubt they were in on it.

Not a single spectator claims to have seen Willie Jimmy in the plane at the time of the crash.

Even with all the video cameras, photos, etc... not a single image of Willie in the cockpit... empty!



The most important thing is that you cannot disprove any of this.




Just like no one can disprove that k-man is a reptilian.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
Dude, the claim is the dna was planted in the Pentagon. Yep, we'll just take their dna, and let them go as long as they promise not to tell anyone they are still alive.

Really? Who claimed that? Got a reference?



PS. There is a lot of fuzzy "facts" floating around in relation to this. Many things are known, many things are claimed. It's difficult, almost impossible, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Stick to the facts, otherwise this whole thread might as well be sci-fi.

And, there ARE facts that point to Gov't cover-ups. If that doesn't bother you, I can't help.
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
^^hilarious denier^^
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:16pm PT
^^^ Obvious no reference. ^^^


monolith can never back up his claims, so this is no new surprise that he can't back up this claim.
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
just google "dna planted at pentagon" silly boy.

You are in denial K-man.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
And it will point to a supertopo post?

Thanks for that clue, mono.

The second hit was this:

DNA evidence can be fabricated and planted at crime scenes, scientists warn
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:19pm PT
Yep, supertopo is the beginning and end of 9/11 info.
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
So K-Man, you are saying the dna could have been planted/fabricated, and the passengers are still alive?

Need I remind you?

2 - killed off the crew and passengers

Um, what? You read this where?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
Quit muckin up the experiment and investigation.

Yer all amateurs not pros like us with many years in the business.

Cheney is gonna spill the beans soon.

Then all these Supertopo mental overlord speculators will be put to sleep.

You'll be toast when the the missile of truth is laser guided up yer asses ......

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
cloe (and others),


Here is a hint:

35 Reasons to Question 9/11


This is not a list of made up events, a la cloe.

This is a list of 35 facts--many point to obvious cover-ups.


k-man....are you serious??? i just read that list. you seriously are not hanging your hat on that BS are you? for real?

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
Werner, Hahahahahahahaha.....



Yes, I am in denial.


How about you:

#21 – Even the 9/11 Commission co-chairmen have admitted that the commission was set up to fail.


#22 – There are numerous facts demonstrating how the 9/11 Commission was obstructed in its investigation into the attacks by its own members.
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
K-Man doesn't want to talk about the passengers whose dna could have been planted/fabricated at the pentagon. Perfectly understandable.

2 - killed off the crew and passengers

Um, what? You read this where?

You should connect the dots for us K-Man.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:38pm PT
Hawkeye, can be be more specific? Like, what part of the story (or 35 things) do you have a problem with?

I posted some of my favorite, do you deny that Bush resisted setting up an investigation, underfunded it, then tried to put Henry Kissinger in charge?

So many Believers with hot air...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:39pm PT
mono, don't put words into my mouth. I never stated that that was the case, and I asked cloe for a reference to where somebody stated that in a SuperTopo post.

Keep hounding the false leads, that's all you can do.

You should connect the dots for us K-Man.


WTF are you talking about?

I'm asking for an investigation to connect the dots. I've only said that about a 100 times.
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
Got it. It's all about supertopo now. Man up K-man, instead of weaseling out.

Yes K-Man, please connect the dots for us. You would actually have to make a claim.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:46pm PT
Until k-man proves that he's not a reptilian, we have to assume the worst.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
OK, now we're getting somewhere!

Wes admits he doesn't care that the Gov't covered up what happened. But the fact remains, I do care.




And Granite, if you saw me climb, you'd wish you were a reptilian too.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
I spent a couple hours today playing with this new machine my hospital... It is pretty much the sickest thing I have ever seen.

A sick machine in the hospital. What will they think of next?



Riley, that does sound insane! And to think you [probably] used to get a kick out of playing with wooden trains...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 19, 2011 - 08:22pm PT
start on the claws skipt...pull them out one at a time. it ought to be good for some ARRRREEEEEEERRRs instead of plain meows.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
I think I know why Werner started this thread.

He knows. He knows all about molten thermo-nanite-darpa steel. Where do you think they tested all that stuff?



































It IS on-topic afterall!!!!!!
Slablizard2

Sport climber
Bay Area
Sep 19, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
Funny (sort of) In the rest of the world, most of the people that pays attention to what happens, consider the official version..the conspiracy theory.
They find it a bad "B" movie. Atta's passport intact after an explosion that was (allegedly) able to melt steel? Not even in Austin Power's movies.

Most defended building on the planet is missing an AA system? A radar system? A camera monitoring system for sure, since we're still stuck with those doctored low rez images 10 years later. There's no jetliner in those frames. Ergo they don't have frames with a jet liner..otherwise they would have love to use them to shut the whole conspiracy.



graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 19, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
Who is crazier?

A person who is obviously a nutcase?

Or a an apparently "sane" person who repeatedly tries and fails to reason with an obvious nutcase?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 19, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
I think I know why Werner started this thread.

He knows. He knows all about molten thermo-nanite-darpa steel. Where do you think they tested all that stuff?

Yes, Cleo, the new conspiracy theory that is in vogue is that it was a conspiracy controlled by Werner.

Read about it here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1591738&msg=1591810#msg1591810

Werner has not been able to deny or disprove anything.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 19, 2011 - 09:00pm PT
Atta's passport intact after an explosion that was (allegedly) able to melt steel? Not even in Austin Power's movies.


Source please?

It is known that some debris from the aircraft travelled completely through the structure. For example, life jackets and portions of seats from the aircraft were found on the roof of the Bankers Trust building, located to the south of WTC2. Part of the landing gear from this aircraft was found at the corner of West and Rector streets, some five blocks south of the WTC complex.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Personal_Effects_and_the_Crash-Proof_Passport
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
It wasn't Attas but it belonged to another hijacker and was found a couple blocks away, in the same direction as the plane debris that exited the building after the crash.

Not unsurprising, lots of paper and office debris, went out with the crash.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Sep 19, 2011 - 09:23pm PT
From the recent Reno air disaster.

From his bed Sunday at Northern Nevada Medical Center, where nine stitches were put in his head, Joraanstad said that when he looked back at the wreck, the plane was just gone.

"The biggest pieces I could see, it looked like just someone sprinkled Legos in every direction," said the 25-year-old, a commercial pilot from Alaska.


Clearly another missle fired by Werner. Why, Werner, why?

Oh the humanity.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 19, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
"It is known that some debris from the aircraft travelled completely through the structure. For example, life jackets and portions of seats from the aircraft were found on the roof of the Bankers Trust building, located to the south of WTC2. Part of the landing gear from this aircraft was found at the corner of West and Rector streets, some five blocks south of the WTC complex."--port



...since this is true, we must then conclude logically that the indestructible "black boxes" were found, removed, and never to be mentioned.


No cover-up there...
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
Did the entire plane exit the building Mojede?

A passport is a lot easier to pick up before the buildings collapsed then some heavy metal boxes.

And two black boxes were found from the other crashes. Why did the NWO let those be found and not the WTC's?

Why wouldn't the NWO fake the recovery of the wtc black boxes if they allowed/faked the other two?

Just asking questions.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2011 - 10:04pm PT
The plane that ejected the purported passport.

How many identification drivers licenses etc. of the passengers were actually recovered from those two Trade center crashes?
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:13pm PT
Good question. There were a fair amount of personal, burnable, items that were recovered from the passengers. It's out there.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
Where?

Oh, it's out there!

C'mon man we need real evidence instead you give "It's out there"

Huh huh huh

WTF ..... ?????
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
"Fair" --as in ; more than one and less than a thousand?



Your data/source on this please Monolith , surely the Gov. must have released a number for you to digest and believe.

I bet less than a dozen...
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
Some items listed here:

http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html

Do I really have to do your bidding Werner?

You could not have found this?
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
Even Port's source, which I agree with and believe has only FOUR

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Personal_Effects_and_the_Crash-Proof_Passport




edit: MY MISTAKE--there is no Passport photographed in the source; only 2 credit cards, and 2 ID's...
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:20pm PT
You want everything found listed for you in one convenient spot, don't you Mojede.

The point is, personal, burnable, stuff was found. It was not impossible.

Why wouldn't the NWO fake finding passports in luggage that did not make it onto the planes, like the other passport found.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
Mono--it's a friggin' crime scene of over 3000 people committed by 19 foreign derelicts given some money to do a terrible thing to the United States !!!!1111



YES--I do expect MORE from our Government regarding the "Investigation"


Like treat it like the crime scene that it was







edit: Possible does not PROBABLE make, eh?
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:25pm PT
You better get out on the street, or talk to your representative about this conclusive proof you found. Whining about it here is not gonna get you your investigation.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
A passerby in a suit picked it up and gave it to a NYPD detective Yuk H. Chin shortly before the World Trade Center towers collapsed. WTC 2 collapsed only shortly thereafter. Mr. Chin gave the passport further to the FBI on 9/11.

A passerby in a suit

Heh heh heh.

Just see .......
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:46pm PT
I love the "passerby in a suit" remark.

Yep Werner, suits are unheard of in the worlds largest financial center.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
Wes?

He was summoned back to NWO HQ by his master.


WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
According to that wiki site the passport was miraculously and conveniently found by the mysterious A passerby in a suit.

The only other 2 identification objects (Waleed Iskandar's bank card) and (Lisa Anne Frost's mileage card) of the two flights into the towers took a month or so and the other a year to be found.

The passport miraculously and conveniently was found by the mysterious passerby in a suit as the event was still continually unfolding on 9.11.01

Heh heh heh .......
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
Suits in the financial district? OMG!
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2011 - 11:07pm PT
Playing with words won't help you monolith except to continually reconfirm that you really are a tool.

And fool ....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:07pm PT
In September, in New York no less!!
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2011 - 11:27pm PT
Yep ... those are the guys that found the passport.

Just see .....
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
There are still some unanswered questions about this...








mmm-hmm, Werner?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
Anybody got a clue why WTC 7 was evacuated at 9:30, before either of the towers fell?

Especially odd is that at 9:00am, Giuliani wasn't in his fancy, new, multimillion dollar command center, which was in WTC 7. You know, this was before the 2nd plane hit. Yeah, he had moved his command center someplace else, before the 2nd plane hit!

Naw, nothing fishy there.

Man, that Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth movie is sure telling. It's long though, so none of the Believers will be watching that one. Whew, they might not be able to argue their feeble straw men arguments if they actually had to talk about facts.

But here's an interesting fact for ya:

NIST won't release the variables that they used in the computer models they made to show how the buildings fell, even though many folks have filed FOIA requests for the data. In other words, nobody can recreate or examine the way the buildings failed as told to us by NIST.

Can you believe it? Well, I guess you do.
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
Cleo's on a roll today.

Two nearby towers had been hit in about 15 minutes, K-Man. Do you really need a better answer?
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
You know what else? They started evacuating the South Tower BEFORE it was hit by the 2nd airplane.



You know how I know that? My cousin was inside, and called his wife to tell her what had happened and that they were evacuating.

That was the last time they spoke.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:50pm PT
WTC 7 was not one of the Twin Towers. The multimillion dollar command center was in it, unused, after the single plane hit.

I admit, this is just circumstantial stuff, fluff if you will. Who knows how many buildings in the area were evacuated, I sure don't. But I do think it's odd that WTC 7 was evacuated.

Anyway, watch the flick, let's talk about the hard facts, none of this circumstantial blather that you can talk your way around.


WTC 7, first second of global collapse at free-fall speeds. Yep, it was actually accelerating for the first 100+ feet (or 8 stories). NIST had to admit that in their report because it is easily calculated from the many videos of the failure.

Yeah, one beam gave way on the 12th floor, and that started the global collapse, or so NIST claims. Funny, nobody can check their work.

Simultaneous failure of all the beams. You folks will believe anything.
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:52pm PT
Dang K-Man, it was right next door to one of the towers that was hit.

Yeah, lets send a lot of civilian and command personnel who have nothing to do with direct rescue to the building next door.

It was opened after the first plane hit, then closed soon after.

Don't you recall your very own Hess and Jennings posts?

Having a senior moment K-Man?


Again K-man, the east penthouse of WTC 7 collapsed first. Hardly freefall.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
monolith, it was the command center, where those folks were supposed to go in case of an emergency. The could command all the different departments from there, fire, police. Cameras, phones, everything. It was build for that very reason, and you would expect that they knew the Towers could be a target when they built it, so I would imagine they had that scenario in the bag.

But like I said, I admit it's purely circumstantial. Watch the movie, those folks got hard FACTS. You don't. You know why you don't? Because the Gov't is keeping them from you, idiot. You can't recreate how the buildings fell. Does that mean *anything* to you?
monolith

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:59pm PT
Giuliani was highly criticized for the command center placement. Rightly so. Should not have been near targets and not high up in a tower.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 20, 2011 - 12:00am PT
Yeah, Hess and Jennings. Went in at 9, the command center was empty.

And funny, your very own NIST report says the WTC 7 collapsed at free-fall speeds. Now are you saying they are lying? Wow, progress.
monolith

climber
Sep 20, 2011 - 12:03am PT
It only says part of the collapse was at free-fall speed. Only about 2 or 3 seconds. And well after the east penthouse had crashed thru the building.

Is that really shocking to you?
monolith

climber
Sep 20, 2011 - 12:15am PT
From the NIST summary.

The analyses of the video (both the estimation of the instant the roofline began to descend and the calculated velocity and acceleration of a point on the roofline) revealed three distinct stages characterizing the 5.4 seconds of collapse:

Stage 1 (0 to 1.75 seconds): acceleration less than that of gravity (i.e., slower than free fall).
Stage 2 (1.75 to 4.0 seconds): gravitational acceleration (free fall)
Stage 3 (4.0 to 5.4 seconds): decreased acceleration, again less than that of gravity

K-Man, you don't even know what the NIST report actually says.

The 5.4 seconds is the time that the roofline is visible in the video analyzed.

Starting with the first movement of the east penthouse, the total collapse time was 14+ seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G86yuunRBIw
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 20, 2011 - 12:34am PT
Once again . . .


Sep 5, 2011 - 12:56pm PT

Gentlemen, stay focused.

Stop the personal insults, it's childish.

Once again . . .


What do we know:


Absolute fore knowledge that an attack was going to be done and on the WTC towers. We knew they were going to use aircraft to do so.


From before . . .



They "TPTB" knew what was going to happen and they used it to their advantage to accomplish what they wanted: LIHOP

Also they "TPTB" knew what they had to do to make it happen: MIHOP


**Eric Rockefeller revealed to Aaron Russo what the NWO wants and that something big was going to happen to be the pretext to go war and invade Afghanistan and Iraq before 9-11-2001.


**Lt. Mike Vreeland from the Pentagon revealed while jailed in Canada that 9-11-2001 would occur and what the events would be. He wrote this down and sealed it in an envelope and gave it to the Canadian authorities. They opened it after 9-11-2001 occurred. This has been verified in Canadian court.


**Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer reveals that US intelligence knew very specifically that the WTC towers would be attacked by aircraft before 9-11-2001 and she shares all the specific details and more. She was held in prison for 5 years by our US government on a Texas military base in attempts to silence her.



All of this verifies LIHOP and MIHOP.




Eric Rockefeller Reveals 9/11 FRAUD to Aaron Russo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA&feature=related



A White Knight Talking Backwards
SPY CASE IN CANADIAN COURTS SUGGESTS US NAVAL OFFICER HAD FOREKNOWLEDGE OF 9-11
by Michael C. Ruppert, Author of Crossing The Rubicon
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_25_02_revised_012802_vreeland.html
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_28_02_vreeland.jpg



Ex CIA Asset Susan Lindauer blows the whistle on 911 myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1OW7b-oug

Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq [Paperback]
Susan Lindauer (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Prejudice-Terrifying-Story-Patriot/dp/1453642757



Extreme Prejudice / Clear Evidence Of 9/11 Cover Up
By Allen L Roland (about the author)
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Extreme-Prejudice--Clear-by-Allen-L-Roland-110105-991.html


http://extremeprejudiceusa.wordpress.com/


"Spies Knew"




Cont. on what we know:


Richard Clarke admits that the CIA purposefully withheld information from other intelligence agencies concerning all involved in the 9-11-2001 plot involving "terrorists." They had a great amount of information/intelligence that they purposefully did not share with other agencies.


Considerable means, motive, and opportunity evidence exists that 9-11-2001 was planned and used as a pretext for endless war on "Terror," war-profiteering, and to radically weaken or eradicate our Constitution and our Civil Rights. Remember, PNAC needed "A New Pearl Harbor" to do and to achieve what they have been able to do since 9-11-2001.


If you can't believe that our government can do this, look at the history of false-flags that the US government has carried out. Read and know the details of "Operation Northwoods" to know this truth. In that plan they discussed in detail using false-flag hijackings, using remote aircraft, and killing of our own citizens/soldiers/people, and much more immoral and heinous crimes to take the US into war against Cuba.


Many federal agencies practiced emergency procedures and scenarios for just such a large scale terrorist attack such as 9-11.


Even the Pentagon practiced wargames with aircraft attacking the Pentagon prior to 9-11-2001.


We have Condi et al. saying "we couldn't imagine they would use aircraft as missiles." That is 100% USDA Bull Dung.


We also know that there where many wargames on 9-11-2001, 15+ or more.


Evidence that NORAD was given a stand down order after the attacks on 9-11-2001 began.


Many physical evidences show that the laws of Physics were suspended on 9-11-2001 if the OCT is held-up as true as told in the 9-11 Commission Report, for all 3 WTC towers to fall as they did due only to the 2 aircrafts slamming into them.


An incredible amount of physical evidence and eye-witness reports are ignored concerning demolition of all 3 WTC towers.


The absolute physical evidence of nano-superthermite found in the dust of all 3 WTC towers.


The physical evidence fits the fact that something other than a 757 slams into the Pentagon. The evidence that explosives were used is considerable.




The means, motive, and opportunity, and the physical evidence for LIHOP and MIHOP is fairly overwhelming. The OCT has been invalidated time and time again.

A new thorough and complete investigation of 9-11-2001 by an open and honest international community or commission must be done.

Re-investigate 9-11 now.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 20, 2011 - 12:50am PT
I suggest voting for a real President next time.

Like W? BWA HA Hhahaaaa

As soon as one shows up, we will.

raymond phule

climber
Sep 20, 2011 - 02:08am PT
k-man wrote

4 - flew the jet over the pentagon

Well, there were eye witnesses who claimed they saw this. Why not look into it? I know why, because you want to believe only the folks you want to believe.

Can you show me those eye witness accounts? I really hope that your only source for that claim is not klimmer...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 20, 2011 - 02:27am PT
and raymond, why is klimmer not a good source? He's come up with way better data and sources than you have. For example, have you gotten around to watching the A&E for Truth video yet?

You should take a look, there's lots of smart folks with lots of amazing things to say. Maybe you're old enough to understand some of it.

Here, I'll repost the link so you don't have to work to find it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw-jzCfa4eQ&feature=player_embedded

But oh, that's right. If it's something that doesn't go along with your predetermined beliefs, you discount it. Like Barry Jennings. You came pretty close to calling him a liar. Now why would that be? Hey, I've got an idea: Because what he said didn't fit into your world of the Official Story.

Am I right?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 20, 2011 - 02:41am PT

and raymond, why is klimmer not a good source? He's come up with way better data and sources than you have. For example, have you gotten around to watching the A&E for Truth video yet?

You just proved that you are an idiot. Believing what Klimmers says without checking any sources...

Why do you link a youtube video that is not even about an airplane flying over pentagon? Is it really that hard to understand that people wants to discuss some specific claims of yours and not just your favorite claims?

What you wrote about eyewitness reports about a plane overflying pentagon seems to be incorrect and neither you or your mentor Klimmer have been able to backup that claim. Why don't you just admit that you where wrong about that claim?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 20, 2011 - 02:45am PT

But oh, that's right. If it's something that doesn't go along with your predetermined beliefs, you discount it. Like Barry Jennings. You came pretty close to calling him a liar. Now why would that be? Hey, I've got an idea: Because what he said didn't fit into your world of the Official Story.

Am I right?

Barry Jennings couldn't even came up with a time line. He also said in an interview that the towers where standing even though he couldn't see them. How could he know?

I am skeptical to eyewitness accounts that cant be backed up in any way. I have also said before that I believe that the time lines have been mixed up in the Barry Jennings case.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 20, 2011 - 02:57am PT

Ray-
Kman ain't an idiot.
Anymore than Werner is.

Both of them are smart and you couldn't meet nicer people.

So smart people believe what Klimmer claims without needing to see any sources?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 20, 2011 - 03:05am PT
Werner, why did you target the crowd at the Reno Air Race with a missile disguised as a Mustang P-51 airplane?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 20, 2011 - 04:06am PT
Riley, was in Yosemite this last weekend. Boy it was HOT!
Yes, will be there for facelift! Hope to meet up with ya, it's be nice to see you again.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 20, 2011 - 04:39am PT
raymond, let me put this in the nicest way that I can.

You are a jerk.

My claim was that there were folks who said they saw something. That's all. I also said that there's a lot of BS out there and that there's a lot of folks who want to discredit the Truther movement. These are called "false flags."

Ask yourself this: Why are you so stuck on debunking this stupid thing or that stupid thing when you ignore the real hard questions. There are lots of very valid claims, just open your eyes. You can't cherry pick the ones that you think you can disprove, you have to disprove them ALL. So might as well start with the real hard facts.

Take a look at the A&E flick. It's long, but each person who speaks lists their credentials up front. We are talking people with scores of years in the trade of building steel structures, fireproofing, chemists in metallurgy, on and on. All the stuff is laid out in the open--the pulverized concrete, the melted steel, explosions, the cover-up of facts by NIST, the impossibility of the collapses by fire. On and on. Also very interesting, if you get to the end of the 2+ hour movie, is a group of psychologists explaining why people have such a hard time looking at the facts. Their shaken world view and cognitive dissonance.

So grow up a little bit here and act like an adolescent. Take a look at the real hard facts and stop picking on this nonsense that's easy to talk around or debunk. You cannot debunk the fact that the NIST report was non-scientific, the fact that they disregarded hundreds of reports of explosions, the disregard of Appendix C from the FEMA report which addresses the melted steel found at Ground Zero, their inability to explain the total destruction of the towers, their hiding of the methods they used to reach their conclusions. This is the real stuff, the stuff that even cloe can't touch with her passive aggressive digs.

It ain't religious. It's fact. You can deny it, but try to be aware that that is what you're doing--denying it because the truth is too much for you look at honestly.

I'll end with this: It is inserting/curious that NIST will not provide the details of how they came to their conclusion, even though certified architects and engineers have filed FOIA requests to get the information. I say this is interesting because it is these architects who are building the new sky scrapers that must be resistant to the thing(s) that brought down the WTC buildings (which by the NIST account are office fires).

NIST claims that it would be a security threat to release the details of how they reached their conclusion. OK fine, a threat. So, it's better to let the engineers of new building not know how to make their buildings safer because to do so would be a security threat. Right, office fires bring down steel-structured buildings, and to explain how that happened would be a security threat.

Do you see a problem here?
raymond phule

climber
Sep 20, 2011 - 04:56am PT

My claim was that there were folks who said they saw something. That's all.

Why is it so damn hard for same people to just admit that they where wrong?

You didn't say that. You said

4 - flew the jet over the pentagon

Well, there were eye witnesses who claimed they saw this. Why not look into it? I know why, because you want to believe only the folks you want to believe.

and this is not true because there where no eyewitnesses that saw that.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 20, 2011 - 05:12am PT

Ask yourself this: Why are you so stuck on debunking this stupid thing or that stupid thing when you ignore the real hard questions. There are lots of very valid claims, just open your eyes. You can't cherry pick the ones that you think you can disprove, you have to disprove them ALL. So might as well start with the real hard facts.

So I need to disprove all your guys claims at once to be allowed to say something? There are probably thousands of claims about this and I think that I have the right to point out the once I found ridiculous wrong without someone like starting to insult me. Why don't you just admit that some of the truthers theories don't add up instead of acting like a child?

I am not an expert in all these and I have not used thousand of hours to try to understand every single one of all claims but I still think that I can pick holes in quite a lot of yours and your friends theories.

You acting like a child whenever someone disprove something in one of your sources is quite telling to me. What about having an actual discussion where both parts admit errors?

Here is some of your claims that has been disproved but that you cant admit.

The planes didn't fly wildly of course for over an hour like one of your sources claimed.
Pulverized concrete is not evidence for explosions in this case.
There are no eyewitness reports of an airplane flying low over pentagon just after something hit pentagon.

Why should someone take you seriously when you over and over show that you can't admit that your sources and knowledge is not always correct?

I am also curious about if you see a connection to videos like the "great global warming swindle" that a lot of people seems to believe is showing the truth about global warming and a lot of your videos with many experts.

My view on this is that supposed experts are not always correct and that it is really difficult for laymen to determine for themselves what is true or not. Especially when the maker of the video wants that you should believe something.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 20, 2011 - 10:15am PT
Monolith-do you, or do you NOT believe 100% of what the 9/11 Commission wrote and reported?



Simple question...one word answer


Betcha won't answer, coward






































EDIT: NO BELIEVER WILL EVER ANSWER THIS QUESTION WITH A "YES" or a "NO"



Won't happen, ever--AND, that should tell you something about character and will....



Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 20, 2011 - 10:22am PT
A late response to the following cry baby rant . . .

Sep 19, 2011 - 11:47am PT
Klimmer you are a teacher. Is is ok for your students to answer questions in the following ways.

The answer can be found in the book xxx.
The answer can be found on the internet.
The answer can be found in the following 2 hours of youtube videos.

I am just curious because it seems that you are using that tactic most of the time. You rarely answer questions or make an argument your self. Instead you just link to many long youtube videos and sometimes general large internet sites without even showing where the information is located.



Raymond et al.,

Now I could hold your hand and give you the precise link, quote, video clip etc. but who has that kind of time?

I do give you the sources where to find it. Where I found it. All you have to do is think just a little and have just enough motivation and look into it and read or watch.


Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. Chinese Proverb.
monolith

climber
Sep 20, 2011 - 10:24am PT
Mojede, nope, don't trust the political commissions.

Do you believe everything your fellow Truthers say?

And aren't you the one that takes unconditionally the word of a policeman? Trained observer right?
Betelnut

Mountain climber
So. California
Sep 20, 2011 - 10:29am PT
Girls, girls, girls, quit the squabbling. They're going to take away your internet privileges at the asylum.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 20, 2011 - 10:34am PT
My view is most of the so called evidence presented by the conspiracy aficionados is blatantly manufactured to exploit their willingness to believe.

I also believe some of the so called conspiracy aficionados participating in this thread are trolls too.

I think its mostly a game to see who can float and sustain the most ridiculous theory.

DMT


Werd. The Alex Jones' of the world are making a fortune off Conspireligion.
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2011 - 11:08am PT
By the way there's no religion in this.

Maybe klimmer?


WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2011 - 11:16am PT
Talk about "blind faith"

These fools here take complete blind faith in the "some guy in a suit" handed over the purported passport.

No name, no ID, no nothing of the reporting party.

Just a suit with a guy in it ......
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 20, 2011 - 11:25am PT
My view is most of the so called evidence presented by the conspiracy aficionados is blatantly manufactured to exploit their willingness to believe.

OK, what about Appendix C in the original FEMA report on 9-11 of why the buildings at Ground Zero collapsed. You know, the Appendix that goes into detail about the melted steel found at Ground Zero? I'm talking about the Gov't report with pictures of melted steel, eye witness accounts of uncovering melted steel weeks after the building fell at GZ, the whole ball of wax. Manufactured by conspiracy aficionados in FEMA?

Or how about the NASA fly-overs weeks after 9-11 that reported surface temps at GZ in excess of 700F. "Manufactured" evidence?

Later, NIST totally ignored Appendix C in the FEMA report, the NASA fly-overs, the fact that melted steel steel was found at GZ.

And I'll bet good money you'll ignore it too, DMT.

raymond, cleo, TGT, monolith, anybody gonna address that, you know, by trying to debunk it? Come on, debunk the FEMA report, you can do it.

As of yet, nobody, including Popular Mechanics, has gone close to these things.
It's Deny & Ignore, the order of the day.





And raymond, if it makes you happy, I'll admit that I never even looked into the report of a plane flying over the Pentagon. So yeah, there could be no witness, what do I know. In fact, I've moved past the Pentagon because there's nothing anybody can prove there without the Pentagon releasing clear evidence of a plane impacting, or doing Werner's experiment. I still believe that the photographic evidence and damage to the building does not support the eye witness accounts of a jet liner hitting the building. And no, I cannot explain it.

However, one thing I do know, no Believer is willing to take on the hard questions remaining at Ground Zero. Every Believer has to totally deny the fact that there is profound evidence that explosives were used to bring down all three buildings, and that the Official Story completely covered up or ignored all of the facts that show this.

Hundreds of eye-witness reports of explosions from firemen, police, news people, civilians inside and outside the buildings. Photographic evidence of melted steel. Melted steel itself, from the site. The fly-overs I mentioned above. There is so much evidence it's astounding.

And if that's not enough, the report that fires caused the collapses has been totally and thoroughly debunked. This is especially easy for WTC 7, but you can also easily conclude that it's true for the Towers as well. Simply, there is no other way to explain the physics, the melted steel, etc, etc.

NIST knows this, and that is why their explanation of the events at GZ is still under lock and key. You cannot know how NIST came to their conclusion of how the buildings at GZ fell.

Do you see the evidence, or don't you. It's really your choice, because if you actually look, it is there for you to see.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 20, 2011 - 11:36am PT
As expected, Dingus. And that's OK. As long as you realize that your view that the evidence is "blatantly manufactured by conspiracy aficionados" is a view with blinders.

Cheers! too :-)
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 20, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
No name, no ID, no nothing of the reporting party.

Just a suit with a guy in it ......

Just a suit with a guy in it.

Let's see.


Nope, wrong Werner.


Maybe this one? A nomex suit is still a suit.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 20, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
Ray-
Kman ain't an idiot.
Anymore than Werner is.

Both of them are smart and you couldn't meet nicer people.
Been fortunate enough to spend time with both.

You met Kookman? Did he wear a tinfoil helmet?
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 20, 2011 - 01:41pm PT
OMG, no wonder Werner knows all about space age nano-thermite!!! He used to be a rocket scientist!!



Is this what happens when rocket scientists make friends with aliens and bathe in the cocoon - they learn to defy gravity too?

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 20, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
Once again . . .


Sep 17, 2011 - 08:58pm PT

http://911blogger.com/
Submitted by Orangutan. on Fri, 09/16/2011 - 11:49pm


9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out, Full-length, Pre-Release-v1.3; Low-Res:
Documentary, Experts Speak Out, Richard Gage AIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw-jzCfa4eQ&feature=player_embedded






Wow, awesome job ae911truth.org !!!


Excellent and thorough documentary. It's a must see.


Investigate 9-11-2001.



If you children can remove yourselves just for a moment from your immature and childish ad hominem attacks and ways, and grow some courage you just might learn something. Facing the truth is part of the healing process. Until you do that you will forever be lost, feel completely disconnected, and live in fear and lash-out in hate.

Check-out the full length video above. It completely goes through WTC 7 and the evidence. Also near the end they talk to many psychologists regarding peoples' inability to face 9-11 reality no matter how dark it maybe.

We definitely have that going on to a great degree here on ST. One of the tale-tell signs are continual immature and meaningless attacks against those who tell you these truths that inflame cognitive dissonance within you. You strike-out, bully, be-little, throw ad hominem attacks against those who will tell you something contrary to your make-belief lives and paradigms.


Grow-up and grow some testicles.


or ovaries as it may apply to you . . .
dirtbag

climber
Sep 20, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
Klimmer, how'd that NWO ordered swine flu vaccine work?

And the chemtrails?

Has the earth been depopulated yet?

What does Alex Jones think about all this?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 20, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
dirtbag,

I was pretty clear. Perhaps you didn't read it once again. One more time . . .

If you children can remove yourselves just for a moment from your immature and childish ad hominem attacks and ways, and grow some courage you just might learn something. Facing the truth is part of the healing process. Until you do that you will forever be lost, feel completely disconnected, and live in fear and lash-out in hate.

Check-out the full length video above. It completely goes through WTC 7 and the evidence. Also near the end they talk to many psychologists regarding peoples' inability to face 9-11 reality no matter how dark it maybe.

We definitely have that going on to a great degree here on ST. One of the tale-tell signs are continual immature and meaningless attacks against those who tell you these truths that inflame cognitive dissonance within you. You strike-out, bully, be-little, throw ad hominem attacks against those who will tell you something contrary to your make-belief lives and paradigms.


Grow-up and grow some testicles.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 20, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
Nice dodge.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 20, 2011 - 03:28pm PT
Holy cow, this is big news:

Lloyd's insurer sues Saudi Arabia for 'funding 9/11 attacks'

The 9-11 Commission did not want to follow the money trail. Looks like Lloyd's is pressing the issue.

Its complaint, which quotes heavily from US diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks
detailing investigations by the US authorities into al-Qa'ida, attempts to establish funding
links between some Saudi charities, and the terror group, and implicate the Saudi government
in that funding through its support of the charities.

The case singles out the activities of a charity, the Saudi Joint Relief Committee for
Kosovo and Chechnya (SJRC), which was alleged by UN officials to have been used as a
cover by several al-Qa'ida operatives, including two men who acted as directors
of the charity. It is alleged that at the time the SJRC was under the control of
Prince Naif bin Abdul Aziz al-Saud, half-brother of King Abdullah and the long-standing
Saudi Interior minister. The claim states: "Between 1998 and 2000, the Kingdom of
Saudi Arabia, through the SJRC, diverted more than $74m to al-Qa'ida members and
loyalists affiliated with SJRC bureaus. Throughout this time, the Committee was
under the supervision and control of Saudi Interior Minister Prince Naif bin Abdul Aziz."

This could get ugly.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 20, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
What did you do with the passengers, Werner?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 20, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
Indeed Dingus. This thing hits so many different levels. Hard to believe it's true, but there ya go!

International intrigue. Money, spies, sex! Somebody should make a movie.
Even if just for the sex.





Oh wait, Michael Moore already did! [OK, that's a total joke--lol]
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 20, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
K-man,

Good find. That's very interesting news.

Yes, it could get very ugly. It's what is needed, massive lawsuits. The World knows 9-11 was LIHOP and MIHOP. Time to get to the truth and go after the real thugs.

Michael Moore was way ahead of his time. This reminds me of . . .


Fahrenheit 9-11




Powerful eye-opening movie. It still is.




(Need a classic image of GWB holding the Saudi Prince's hand and/or kissing right here)

WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2011 - 07:19pm PT
Incompetence means they didn't really know.

Nope ... there's a real coverup as they really knew what was going down and let it happen.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 21, 2011 - 02:01am PT
Worth another watch, its been some time for me . . .


Fahrenheit 911 - The full length movie - Bush cheated in the 2000 election!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chj5R0Izt9s





We were screwed royally in 2000 AD. And then all this doo-doo happened that has taken our country in a direction we should never have gone over the next 8 years. Two 9/11s happened on GWB's watch: one physically near the beginning of his administration and the other economically right at the very end. Unbelievable.

Remember 9-11-2001 happened on GWB's watch, and then on purpose.


LIHOP and MIHOP.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 21, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
Klimmer, how'd that NWO ordered swine flu vaccine work?

And the chemtrails?

Has the earth been depopulated yet?

It's good that the evil conspirators are so incompetent and ineffective.
Slablizard2

Sport climber
Bay Area
Sep 21, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
Atta's passports and more "lucky findings" Enlighten yourself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/mar/19/september11.iraq
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 21, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
It's good that the evil conspirators are so incompetent and ineffective.

ahhh, you only think that because the chemtrails carry psychodelics to make you not care....its worse at altitude too...they dont call it Rocky Mountain High for nothing.
Slablizard2

Sport climber
Bay Area
Sep 21, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
Chem trails are fake. You go shopping now. Don't think. Shop. And keep moving. No loitering here. Stop discussing or thinking. Trust your government. Thinking is unpatriotic. Shop instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-afMDA4iwYA&feature=related
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 21, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
^^^ fake is the wrong word. Retarded is more appropriate.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 21, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
Got any videos of Bush and chain saw safety videos..?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 24, 2011 - 06:54pm PT
New evidence links Saudi royal family to Saudis in FL-who reportedly had contact with 9/11 hijackers

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1992304
http://www.browardbulldog.org/2011/09/fbi-found-direct-ties-between-911-hijackers-and-saudis-living-in-florida-congress-kept-in-dark
http://www.alternet.org/story/152505/is_the_saudi_royal_family_connected_to_9_11_hijackers_/







Can't forget this famous read:

House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties [Hardcover]
Craig Unger (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/House-Bush-Saud-Relationship-Dynasties/dp/074325337X


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5141Q992AQL._SS500_.jpg
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 25, 2011 - 01:00am PT
FBI found direct ties between 9/11 hijackers and Saudis living in Florida; Congress kept in dark
By Anthony Summers and Dan Christensen, BrowardBulldog.org

http://www.browardbulldog.org/2011/09/fbi-found-direct-ties-between-911-hijackers-and-saudis-living-in-florida-congress-kept-in-dark/


Just two weeks before the 9/11 hijackers slammed into the Pentagon and World Trade Center, members of a Saudi family abruptly left their luxury home near Sarasota, leaving a brand new car in the driveway, a refrigerator full of food, fruit on the counter — and an open safe in the master bedroom.

In the weeks to follow, law enforcement agents not only discovered the home was visited by vehicles used by the hijackers, but phone calls were linked between the home and those who carried out the death flights — including leader Mohamed Atta — in discoveries never before revealed to the public.



GRAHAM HAS QUESTIONS

For Graham, who served as Florida’s governor from 1979 to 1987, the connections between the hijackers and residents raise questions about whether other Saudi nationals in Florida knew of the impending attacks, which killed nearly 3,000 people.

The FBI investigation began the month after 9/11 when Larry Berberich, senior administrator and security officer of the gated community known as Prestancia, reported a bizarre event that took place two weeks before the hijackings of four passenger jets that originated in Boston, Newark and Washington.

The couple, living with their small children at the three-bedroom home at 4224 Escondito Circle, had left in a hurry in a white van, probably on Aug. 30.

They abandoned three recently registered vehicles, including a brand-new Chrysler PT Cruiser, in the garage and driveway.

After 9/11, Berberich said he had “a gut feeling” the people at the home may have had something to do with the attacks, prompting the FBI’s probe that would eventually link the hijackers to the house.



CONGRESSIONAL INQUIRY KEPT IN DARK


Former Florida U.S. Senator Bob Graham

During an interview on Sunday, Graham said he was surprised he wasn’t told about the probe when he was co-chair of Congress’ Joint Inquiry into 9/11 — even though he was especially alert to terrorist information relating to Florida.

“At the beginning of the investigation,” he said, “each of the intelligence agencies, including the FBI, was asked to provide all information that agency possessed in relation to 9/11.”

The fact that the FBI did not tell the Inquiry about the Florida discoveries, Graham says, is similar to the agency’s failure to provide information linking members of the 9/11 terrorist team to other Saudis in California until congressional investigators discovered it themselves.

The Inquiry did nevertheless accumulate a “very large” file on the hijackers in the United States, and later turned it over to the 9/11 Commission. “They did very little with it,” Graham said, “and their reference to Saudi Arabia is almost cryptic sometimes. … I never got a good answer as to why they did not pursue that.”

The final 28-page section of the Inquiry’s report, which deals with “sources of foreign support for some of the Sept. 11 hijackers,” was entirely blanked out. It was kept secret from the public on the orders of former President George W. Bush and is still withheld to this day, Graham said.

This in spite of the fact that Graham and his Republican counterpart, U.S. Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama, both concluded the release of the pages would not endanger national security.

The grounds for suppressing the material, Graham believes, were “protection of the Saudis from embarrassment, protection of the administration from political embarrassment … some of the unknowns, some of the secrets of 9/11.”

Anthony Summers is co-author of The Eleventh Day: The Full Story of 9/11 and Osama bin Laden, published last month by Ballantine Books, an imprint of Random House. Dan Christensen is the editor of the Broward Bulldog.



We do not know the entire truth of 9-11-2001. Not even close. The evidence that TPTB are hiding a great deal of information and truth regarding 9-11 from the American Public and the World is overwhelming.

Investigate 9-11-2001





Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Sep 25, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
Michael Moore defends Tony Bennett on 9/11
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x619108
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdJs3K2zyX8



Amen. Speak truth and speak truth to power brother!
dirtbag

climber
Sep 26, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
Watch out for that swine flu vaccine! LOL.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Sep 26, 2011 - 11:19pm PT
It's the fluoridated water. Depriving us of our precious bodily fluids.
Just ask Gen.Jack D. Ripper!
TY
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 27, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
Nothing personal, Dr. F but that article is about as scientific as "he said, she said"...


Which part of the article is the science, good doc?




k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 27, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
Dr. F. sez: "Here is the Official Scientific Explanation for 911 ...

If you think that's "scientific," then you know nothing of science.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 27, 2011 - 06:56pm PT
Just found out I have or am in regression from reading all of Klimmer's info and this thread so now sleeping with this under my pillow at night.

Wake up with stiff neck, anyone have natural cure to solve the problem?

Hell! it took 1/2 hour just to find where to put the clip in.

WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
Americans are the most entertained and least informed people in the world." As a result, they know little or nothing about what they most need to know."

I'm right .... heh heh

Americans are stupid including the idiots here and believe everything they were told about 911 by their officials, the NIST, the 911 commission.

Drooling fools .....
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 16, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
Way to bump your own retarded thread with more drivel

WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
Tough sh'it isn't it.

Keep on drooling fool .....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 16, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
Wouldn't you guys just love to know what's underneath YOSAR. The command and control centre for... Well, anyway, the YOSAR thing is just for appearances. Right, Werner?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 11, 2011 - 10:22pm PT
Topic Drift....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LDdRVthqQU&feature=player_embedded


What about this point of view?
WBraun

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2011 - 01:26am PT
"There are hills west of the Pentagon.

FBI interviewed hundreds of apartment dwellers west and south of the Pentagon who watched American Airlines flight 77 circle and crash into the Pentagon.

They all saw a helicopter following the plane."
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 5, 2011 - 11:33am PT
What plane...

It was a missile damnit!!

FBI LI3z!!!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 5, 2011 - 01:02pm PT




Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 23, 2012 - 01:30am PT
They all saw a helicopter following the plane."

They got helos now that can do 500 Kts?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 23, 2012 - 01:48am PT
They got helos now that can do 500 Kts?

Reilly, what part of "this is a conspiracy thread" don't you understand? If it's important to have a helo following that jet all the way in, then by god, we'll have a helo. Pointing out that the general public doesn't know about supersonic helos just shows that you're a big doo-doo head who wants to spoil the other kids' fun.

SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Sep 23, 2012 - 02:26am PT
Welll, I was in the Pentagon a week after the attack, and I kind of know what jet fuel smells like...and it was pervasive...as were the aircraft parts on the west lawn.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 23, 2012 - 02:30am PT
Welll, I was in the Pentagon a week after the attack, and I kind of know what jet fuel smells like...and it was pervasive...as were the aircraft parts on the west lawn.

You're just a big doo-doo head, like Reilly. Why don't you go and post in some fact-based thread instead of spoiling people's fun here?
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Sep 23, 2012 - 02:57am PT
That (most recent) link sucks so hard. Maybe we need more body recoveries etc to keep the OP busy, and off the internet.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Sep 23, 2012 - 10:32am PT
So, are someof you saying it all went down the way the911 commission said it did?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 21, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
Hmmm...

Aaaahhh...

Ohhhhh...!!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 21, 2015 - 12:27pm PT
Welll, I was in the Pentagon a week after the attack, and I kind of know what jet fuel smells like...and it was pervasive...as were the aircraft parts on the west lawn.


HEY!!! There's no room for personal experience and facts in here, doo doo head, GET LOST!
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Jul 21, 2015 - 01:50pm PT
So, are someof you saying it all went down the way the911 commission said it did?

That is what we call a poorly-framed question.
looks easy from here

climber
Ben Lomond, CA
Jul 21, 2015 - 02:00pm PT
Am on a watchlist now for clicking on the link in Werner's op?
couchmaster

climber
Jul 21, 2015 - 05:30pm PT
Just because the Pentagon planned and all the joint chiefs signed off on killing US citizens and blowing up a civilian plane in the 60's just to blame it on the Cubans to be able to justify a Cuban war, why would anyone believe they would ever do such a thing ?

.....again I mean. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/northwoods.html

When you wiki Operation Northwoods, remember that the Pentagon hires over 28,000 Full time employee/publicists who's only job it is to make the .GOV look better by fixing mean spirited things said about the government.



Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 21, 2015 - 05:41pm PT
remember that the Pentagon hires over 28,000 Full time employee/publicists who's only job it is to make the .GOV look better by fixing mean spirited things said about the government.

So there are 5000 mystery civilian personnel at the Pentagon on a hidden
budget? Wow! And all of them, including the acknowledged civie workforce,
work on "fixing mean spirited things"? I thought they had maintenance men
who did that?
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