Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
We know very well what physical ability is necessary to climb "hard" and that is the ratio of grip-strength (finger flexor) to bodyweight.
What about for cracks? I only have about 3 or 4 good fingers left and am fat as f*#k. Please tell me there is still hope if I only do handcracks.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
|
Elcap... post references please!
Russ, there's that long long hand crack into heaven, that's all that's left for us...
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
Russ, there's that long long hand crack into heaven, that's all that's left for us...
I thought it was "a 5.10 mantel into heaven, brother."
Edit to add: maybe the mantel comes at the end of that hand crack?
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
I only have about 3 or 4 good fingers left and am fat as f*#k.
there's always the wide.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
"We know very well what physical ability is necessary to climb "hard" and that is the ratio of grip-strength (finger flexor) to bodyweight."
I am putting this quote on the refrigerator door.
|
|
426
climber
☬
|
|
Elcap... post references please!
I think the one of the best term for EC's statement is relative strength;
http://www.gymjones.com/knowledge.php?id=6
there's a ton of other stuff on the web from kinesthiologists; gymnastics guys (and girls), etc.
The first time I saw this term was in a conditioning book; quite extensive, the RS of Russian polevaulters was teh subject and the author wrote out the formula.
RS=AS/BW
relative strength = absolute strength/bodyweight
There;s also a growing body of work on hypertrophy and other ways of getting stronger. I personally fall into the sarcoplasmic gainer, I can put on a lot of mass easily but it's not translatable into harder climbing. I often wonder if this was from lifting tons before I was climbing....
For my money, MacLeod's book far exceeds anything; I've done SCC glue hands for a decade, silent feet, blind climbing etc, but the movements Macleod discusses seem to be making me better. More than any body of work it's a process of weeding out the weaknesses, very hard to both find and correct jmo.
Interesting meditations; I feel that my limitations are nearly pure mental- ...getting older by the year tho...
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
|
|
"I am a climber. I still climb. And for me? That is enough."
Amen, brother!
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
|
my motive is to get the climbing specific data here...
for a long time we've said things "climbing is like xxx" fill in for "xxx" gymnastics, etc...
but actually climbing is a bunch of things...
finger flex strength is good for hand crack? offwidth? slab?
aerobic conditioning doesn't count for anything?
core strength?
I'm surprised at the dismissal of flexibility... and so it would be interesting to see how that got eliminated.
|
|
tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
|
|
As an on again, off again climber in various forms of shape, out of shape, and way out of shape, I have some opinions on training, climbing and injury.
As to training approaches and regimes, it really depends on what your goal is. If you're trying to climb the hardest possible climbs, you'll need a paticular regime of strength training, possibly weight loss, and you'll likley get injured from both the training and the climbing.
Now if you're looking to climb at more moderate grades, enjoy the climbing and not injure yourself, I've found that nothing is better than moderate bouldering and traversing. Stick with the big holds so you don't trash your tendons, and go on the overhangs to get a forearm burn. Climbing has way too many complex static and dynamic movements to simulate with a weight routine. Climbing those complex moves, and mastering your balance IMHO is much more important.
Sure there are climbs that require tremendous grip strength compared to body weight, but that really comes into it's own on the overhanging routes. With less than verticle routes, technique can get you much farther than a campus board.
So my advice is moderate bouldering a couple times a week and some cardio work, that should get one into the fairly solid 5.10 ground, and keep from tearing up the stuff that takes longer to heal, if it will heal at all, as we age.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
|
unfortunately, this paper is a mess...
http://www.johk.awf.katowice.pl/pdfy/nr%2018/07_magiera.pdf
Journal of Human Kinetics volume 18 2007, 87‐98
© Editorial Committee of Journal of Human Kinetics
Biometric Model and Classification Functions in Sport Climbing
by
Artur Magiera, Igor Ryguła
Conclusions
Results of versatile statistical analysis allow to formulate the following conclusions:
1. Based on the value of structural parameters of the regression model, built for the Contestant Development Index in OS style sport climbing, the: following variables have the highest diagnostic value: Technique, VO2AT [Oxygen consumption on anaerobic threshold], Fmax [Maximum finger strength], Contr, Psych., Endr.RR, Ape index, Comp.r.r. [Complex reaction rate], Flex. [Flexibility of hips in “froggies”]
2. Features such as: Fmax [Maximum finger strength], Ment.str. [Mental strength], End. RR, Age, Technique, VO2AT [Oxygen consumption on anaerobic threshold], Motr.ad. [Motor adaptation], FM%, Ape Index, Contr., best discriminate the tested contestants in sport climbing. The three classification functions designating the groups and studied contestants in a most effective way.
3. Variables which are an optimum combination of determinants of the CDI biometric model, explained 93% of this phenomenon. This shows that the determinants are good predictors of Contestant Development Performance in sport climbing.
|
|
Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
|
|
Biomechanics do not start with climbing- by a long shot.
Climbing movement is a subset of movement learned lifetime- early life examples, attitudes adopted growing up. habits adopted over time. The slumped shoulders that your parent learned from his/her parent, will likely show up in climbing movement.
That's a great value in climbing- paying attention to the minutiae of movement, body position, breath, (and the mental elements), provides an opportunity to release held energy= health. This is available regardless (irregardless to you fans) of age, experience, injuries.
Isn't it it much more personal than research on exercise physiology? How you breath while sitting in a chair informs your climbing, including injuries and health, and vise versa.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
|
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1756253/pdf/v034p00359.pdf
Br J Sports Med 2000;34:359–366
Physiological and anthropometric determinants of sport climbing performance
Christine M Mermier, Jeffrey M Janot, Daryl L Parker, Jacob G Swan
Results—The principal components analysis procedure extracted three components. These were labelled training, anthropometric, and flexibility on the basis of the measured variables that were the most influential in forming each component. The results of the multiple regression procedure indicated that the training component uniquely explained 58.9% of the total variance in climbing performance. The anthropometric and flexibility components explained 0.3% and 1.8% of the total variance in climbing performance respectively.
Conclusions—The variance in climbing performance can be explained by a component consisting of trainable variables. More importantly, the findings do not support the belief that a climber must necessarily possess specific anthropometric characteristics to excel in sport rock climbing.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
Blood lactate accumulates during ascent and remains elevated for over 20 min post-climbing.
Some 40 years ago I remember hearing that jstan recommended 20 minutes of rest between attempts on hard climbs.
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
discouraged yet, ed?
heh
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2011 - 12:39am PT
|
this one looks good, though I can't get the full text...
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640414.2011.565362
Journal of Sports Sciences Volume 29, Issue 8, 2011
DOI:10.1080/02640414.2011.565362
Self-reported ability assessment in rock climbing
Nick Drapera, Tabitha Dicksona, Gavin Blackwella, Simon Fryera, Sefton Priestleya, David Wintera & Greg Ellisa
pages 851-858
Abstract
Level of ability within rock climbing is generally expressed in terms of a “best ascent”, rated using various grading systems within the sport. The most common method of obtaining this information is via self-report. The aim of this study was to examine the validity of self-reported climbing grades. Twenty-nine competitive rock climbers (17 males, 12 females) were first asked to report their current (defined as within the last 12 months) best on-sight lead ascent grade (Aus/NZ). The participants then climbed a specifically designed indoor route, under on-sight conditions (one attempt, no route practice or preview), to obtain an assessed grade. The route increased in difficulty, and was such that the distance achieved by the climber corresponded to a particular grade. The mean (±standard deviation) self-reported and assessed grade was 22.6 ± 3.4 and 22.0 ± 3.0 (Aus/NZ) respectively. Despite slight over- and underestimations in males and females respectively, there was no statistically significant difference between self-reported and assessed on-sight climbing grades. The results of this study suggest that self-reported climbing grades provide a valid and accurate reflection of climbing ability.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2011 - 12:45am PT
|
http://www.wemjournal.org/article/PIIS1080603210003765/abstract
Wilderness & Environmental Medicine Volume 22, Issue 2 , Pages 140-143, June 2011
Athletic Profile of Highly Accomplished Boulderers
Jamie H. Macdonald, Nigel Callender
Objective
Bouldering is a discipline of rock climbing completed at low height. Despite its popularity, scientific description of this sport remains sparse. This study aims to characterize the athletic profile of highly accomplished boulderers.
Methods
Twelve male highly accomplished boulderers (age 25.3 ± 4.9) were matched for age (± 5 yr), height (± 5 cm), and body mass (± 5 kg) to 12 nonclimbing aerobically trained controls. Body composition was determined by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry. Handgrip and climbing specific finger strength were assessed by dynamometry. Shoulder girdle and abdominal muscle endurance were assessed by isometric tests. Data were mostly analyzed by t-tests with an adjusted alpha level for multiple comparisons. Ethical approval was received from the School of Sport, Health and Exercise Sciences, Bangor University, Bangor, UK.
Results
Body composition was similar between the groups, apart from increased bone mineral density in climbers' forearms (1.1 ± 0.1 vs. 1.0 ± 0.1 g ·cm^2, t(22) = 2.798, p = 0.010). Hand grip strength and climbing specific finger strength were greater in climbers (eg, finger strength: 494 ± 64 vs. 383 ± 79 N, t(22) = 3.740, p = 0.001), but handgrip and abdominal endurance were similar between the groups. In contrast, endurance of the shoulder girdle was substantially greater in boulderers (58 ± 13 vs. 39 ± 9 s, t(22) = 4.044, p = 0.001).
Conclusion
Highly accomplished boulderers were characterized by handgrip and finger strength better than that of nonclimbing controls and superior to that of previously investigated elite climbers. In contrast, boulderers' body composition and core endurance were similar to that of controls (who were aerobically trained). These characteristics provide an athletic profile of highly accomplished boulderers, and hence identify possible targets that with further investigation may aid athlete selection and training program design.
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
check yr email
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
"Some 40 years ago I remember hearing that jstan recommended 20 minutes of rest between attempts on hard climbs."
That approach involved severe danger however. During that 20 minutes the person climbing with me generally did the route. I never did get the hang of properly structuring the team.
|
|
murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
|
|
All sports science is a mess; underfunded, small, unrepresentative studies with fuzzy methodology, over-interpreted and regurgitated as solid wisdom 30 years after refuted by other inadequate studies, by coaches, trainers, and how-to authors. Climbing training "science" doesn't even meet that bar, because most of it is a dubious guess at how "results" from the bad studies of college runners or bench-pressing translate to the really wacky physiology of the fingers and forearms. Maybe that's overgeneralizing. But I roll my eyes when I see chapters on muscle biology in climbing training books. The best ones admit that there is no clearly helpful science here, and so we're going with what seems to have worked in practice (a recent example: http://www.powercompanyclimbing.com/2011/08/hypertrophy-for-climbing-pt-2-forearms.html);.
The injury in an aging athlete is always fraught with "could this be it?" I've had mercifully few serious injuries (and just now I seem to have recovered quickly from what at first seemed to be one), but it's a big worry and I really appreciate your thoughtful explorations, Ed (and others).
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Develop general aerobic power (increase and maintain VO2max at 50-60 ml/kg/min).
Let us know!