Disagreement with Totem Cams OutdoorGearlab review

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mapeze

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 22, 2011 - 12:17pm PT
I'm Mikel Apezetxea, the designer of the Totem Cams.
I have posted in our blog some info explaining my disagreement with some assessment made at OutdoorGearlab review.
I invite all you have tried the Totem Cams to give your opinion. It's essential to improve the product in favor of climbers community.
Thanks!
James Doty

Trad climber
Phoenix, Az.
Jul 22, 2011 - 12:36pm PT
where is the lnk to your blog?
mapeze

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
Here is,

http://www.totemcams.com/blog/archives/1529
James Doty

Trad climber
Phoenix, Az.
Jul 22, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
Seems to me you have a legitimate complaint. The cams look pretty interesting to me.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Jul 22, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
Here is some community discussion if you're interested.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1524882
http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/980358/1
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1261026
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1294256


edit: studly, check out this link:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1557658
James Doty

Trad climber
Phoenix, Az.
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
I just read through all of TKings' links and I would definitely like to try them. If I am reading right they seem to be a non-offset cam that will fit offset placements.

Edit: Among other seemingly good attributes.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
No Whining.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
HOw can the BD C4 score an 8 for tight placements?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 22, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
OutdoorGearLab is obviously a spin off of supertopo. Have you taken your concerns to Chris M directly?

It sounds like an honest review, but the ratings do seem like something is not right.

In their comparison of all cams Totem does well, scoring near the top of the pack with 75 out of 100 points.

However the other cams that scored the same 75/100 (aliens, C3s) get 4 out of 5 stars while Totems only get 3 stars.
jewedlaw

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 22, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
Please send me a full rack and I will submit a very comprehensive review of Totem Cams.

Thanks!
James Doty

Trad climber
Phoenix, Az.
Jul 22, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
The videos TKing posted show pretty clearly their performance when torqued side to side and with two lobes engaged. Worth checking out next time I am ready to buy.

edit: seems like they may have a few design issues to work out.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
I think the objections have merit. I can't say I've been greatly impressed with the SuperTopo gear reviews. A lot of times the objections raised seem idiosyncratic, the reviewer seems to miss features, and it isn't always clear what the standards were or whether the standards were uniformly applied. The review of climbing packs seemed to me to suffer from a number of these issues too.

I own one Totem Cam, a Purple, which is approximately the size of a Purple C4, perhaps slightly smaller, like the red Alien. The narrow head width enables it to fit where C4's can't begin to go, the individual loading of the cams means it works better than C4's in flares and uneven cracks, and the stem flexibility, which has to be experienced to be believed, makes it far better in horizontal and pinched-off placements and reduces walking more than any other cam I've used. I've had no problems with the stem flexing so much as to interfere with placements.

At $70 a piece postpaid, Totem Cams are pricey. The double stems are bulky for racking, no doubt. And it remains to be seen how durable they will be. But they are solid as hell and fit where C4's don't, and should be especially appealing in places that don't feature parallel-sided cracks shooting up to the sky. For those who carry doubles in their cam sizes, I think pairing C4's and Totems would be ideal.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
I take particular offense with this statement:
However, with some design flaws and recent recall issues it is hard for us to fully get behind these cams, especially at the price. Maybe in the future Totem will strike gold with their innovative engineering. But in the meantime, for the most versatile and durable cam go for Black Diamond Camalot C4.

What a load of bullsh#t and a disingenuous slam on Totems. Thanks for pointing this out to us Mikel. It took me a while to love your cams but I'll defend them.

First: THE EFFECTIVE GRIP RANGE AND THE HOLDING POWER OF TOTEMS ARE BOTH CLEARLY SUPERIOR TO THE CAMALOTS.

Totem volentarly recalled them as they say that the non-anodised cams gripped better. They did it to squeeze every ounce of grip performance on "polished limestone" and certain soft rock applications, as they had anodizing on the cam lobes. Yet Black Diamond, DMM and Wild Country don't seem to give a rats ass about that very thing as they all anodize their cam lobes, something they have always done and don't seem about to change. Why doesn't the author recommend avoiding them for that reason since he wants to avoid the Totems despite them being the only ones to have both noted and paid for the improvement. (BD only anodizes one side, but that is why Totem recalled their cams, the Totems were working great and already outperforming Black Diamond cams even with the anodized lobes) What other Mfg has gone that far above and beyond? Maybe Metolius (they don't anodize their lobes) but I don't have an example.

I have the anodized cam versions, will not send them back in, as they say, if I want to up the performance on in those rare applications that Totem wants their cams to be flawless on but the rest of the pack don't even give a rats ass about, I'll hit it with sandpaper myself. Meantime, they have the same "Flaw" as the Black Diamonds and DMMs -anodized lobes. Totem cams outperform Black Diamond cams PERIOD. Love my Camalots, but it's true.

Totems only issue is that they go to BD red, so if you want larger, you HAVE to use someone elses cam, and the Gold Camalot is a contender as Totam doesn't make that size. Totems use the BD green and red colors for those sizes.

As far as addressing the inference the review has that they are short lived or that Camalots will last longer. No one can say how long they hold up, but I did see Plaidmans after he and Studly came down off the Leaning Tower (and Plaidman ain't no lightweight if you know what I mean heh heh) and his cams looked great. Shockingly - closer to new than beat up like an Alien you'd carried up a wall. These do not seem to overcam and get easily stuck in cracks either. I love the Metolius Supercam, but as anyone who has climbed with me knows, I come real close to getting them stuck on a regular basis. Not these Totems.

So lets recap the Totem advantage:

A) better range than Camalots.

B) better holding power (call it stickiness or less likely to rip when you are aiding, something like that).

C} less chance of fixing one and having to leave it.

D) Not made in China like the Camalots.

..hmmm, only 3 stars and a diss in the review - what is the real deal here. I'll concede the expensive point is all. Takes up more rack real estate would be a valid criticism, but one not noted in the real world and that the reviewer didn't note either. Probably stronger too. Harumph.

Truthfully, I didn't like them when I first got them. Compared them to Hybrid Aliens and didn't see a clear improvement like I thought had been advertized. Yet i started to get some high mileage on them at Red Rocks and in Yosemite, and the more I used them, the more I like them. The interesting phenomena was except for one buddy, who insisted on not ever taking them out, anyone I climbed with took the same trip as I did. That is, started out tending to disliking them just from the way they looked, and then wound up liking them.

ps, as a side note: I may own (certainly have used) about every brand of current cam out there: except for the new Wild Country Helium, which I will have soon enough.

Regards all
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 22, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
I use the Totem cams and really like them. Seems like if you use a set of Totem cams and BD/Metolius cams side by side for 10 pitches of trad or gear climbing, its a sure thing you start reaching for the Totem cams by the end, even if you're a diehard BD cam afficianado. OR unless you're sponsored by Black Diamond or Metolius! In my experience they are more bomber in most placements, don't walk, clean quick.
Plaidman

Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
Jul 26, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
Wow! Thanks couchmaster for throwing me under the bus. I plan on being half the man I use to be soon.
My Totems are my favorite cam on my rack. I don't have any problem placing them. In fact I think I have to mess with them less to get them to stick. With a C4 Camalot I have to adjust the placement to get it to stick where I want it. Not with the Totem. Sticks the first time and cleans like a dream.
Long live Totem Cams.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:43pm PT
I meant no offense Plaid. Same as when Benny wanted to borrow my Hybrid Aliens to rock the South Seas. Ben's a big guy and easily over 200 lbs, I think he said 220, aid puts so much wear onto a cam...and them some, especially Aliens which get torn up quick. I'd do almost anything for Ben, great guy and I figure I owe him too, but I couldn't do it knowing that the Aliens wouldn't look anywhere near the same after a single El Cap route, and no matter how hard he tried to baby them, (and he would try to take care of them) they'd be trashed anyway. Soft metal and lot of weight.

I love aid climbing with Ivan and I'll note that despite the fact that he's huge, if it's his pitch and the rack is mixed he'll pull his cams off the rack till he runs out of his and has to use yours. As he is 6' 6 " and weighs 250 lbs, aid with Ivan puts big stresses on them, he knows it and trys to take care of your stuff.

My point only was how well your Totems held up under aid. If it was a guy like Dale Bard in his prime when he weighed 120 soaking wet or whatever, that statement about the Totems holding up would mean nothing, so I was just fleshing out the statement is all. I apologize if that came out wrong and will still tie in with you as long as you do not drop me in retaliation:-)
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:46am PT
Mike,

I've heard great things about your cams. Most people who buy cams do so because friends recommend them, not because of an online review. But I understand your concern. You also provided a great review of the strengths and weaknesses of your own product, pretty cool to provided such an honest assessment. Good luck! I can't wait to try Totems.
mwatsonphoto

Trad climber
los angeles, ca
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:51am PT
If the price was a little lower I'd be more likely to give em a try. Bought two full sets of metolius master cams and a couple of the offsets (that I also got a discount on). I may still try a Totem cam in the future.
mapeze

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
Port,

Thanks! You could have a chance to try them at Yosemite in September...
Josh Higgins

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 2, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
The Supertopo (now outdoorgearlab?) reviews have been terrible. They favor quantity over quality, and just pump them out. I gave my 2 cents on a few of the reviews, like the Metolius TCU review, which was subsequently changed. I've also seen quite a few reviews that just reported specs that could be taken off a website with no actual information about field performance. I doubt they're even testing this stuff properly, if at all in some cases.

My two cents on the Totem Cam: 5 stars and worth the $!

Josh
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