Castle Rock Guides staking "claims" with a top rope

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Shitguy

Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, California
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 14, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
I just want to let the guides who were working at Castle Rock on Tuesday know that I dropped your top rope anchors. The locking carabiner hit really hard on the rocks and you might want to retire it.

It's not okay to get to the park super early so you can set up the TR for your clients who are lagging behind. I get up early to go climbing. If other climbers beat me to the crags, oh well, that's the way it goes. When I arrived to Goat Rock, TR's were set up, but no one was around. Everyone was back at the parking lot NOT CLIMBING. I could site safety reasons for dropping your unattended gear, but it was really passive aggressive behavior on my part. No apologies. Setting up gear so your clients can potentially use it later, is BS. If you're not climbing, dont leave your crap in the way of other climbers.

I dont care if you have paying clients or not. I encourage all climbers to drop gear that has been set up by guides as a means to stake a claim for their clients. It's BS and will not be tolerated.
T H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:57pm PT
Hear hear!
Kurt Ettinger

Trad climber
Martinez, CA
Jul 14, 2011 - 04:00pm PT
BOOTY?

Dang Two folks beat me!!
neversummer

Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Jul 14, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
Should have just kept em'.....then walked past them with the biners in plain sight.
Chinchen

climber
Way out there....
Jul 14, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
like
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 14, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
Not booty, just really bad form. They tend to 'claim' waterfall wall for a long time too but they're usually climbing on their rigs, not leaving them unattended. That's different. Just get there early (before 10am) and knock out the routes before they show.

The situation you descibe is just bad form. Especially on the more popular rock in the park. What route?

Were there ropes attached to the rig? If not, it's booty.

bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jul 14, 2011 - 04:18pm PT
No one on the ropes? No one even appearing to get ready to climb the ropes?
Agreed, drop that $hit.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 14, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
Bad form on their part.

Bad form on your part.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 14, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
If you really want to screw with them run some solo laps on goat rock.
I've pissed off quite a few of them doing that.

The REI group leaders have tended to be real as#@&%es out there lately and the seem to think they own the park. I have taken to being polite and doing what I want and just ignoring them.

I could tell you stories but it ain't worth my time.

Also just booty their sh#t if they leave it - that's total BS...

Or if you don't like that idea then pull their ropes and rub them in a bunch of poison oak ;)

kev
NotIt

Trad climber
SF, CA
Jul 14, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
+1 agreement
apogee

climber
Jul 14, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
What's the name of the guiding program? (Was it REI?)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 14, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
If you really want to screw with them run some solo laps on goat rock.
I've pissed off quite a few of them doing that.

The REI group leaders have tended to be real as#@&%es out there lately and the seem to think they own the park. I have taken to being polite and doing what I want and just ignoring them.

I could tell you stories but it ain't worth my time.

Also just booty their sh#t if they leave it - that's total BS...

Or if you don't like that idea then pull their ropes and rub them in a bunch of poison oak ;)

kev


Yeah, I've soloed that rig with you before and we get the "you're setting a bad example" crap from them.

WTF??? Who is setting the bad examples? POLICE YOUR GEAR! Use it or pull it! Have some f*#king consideration for the most popular crag in the park.

And when I CHOOSE to solo a route and I'm not on your route, don't lecture me with your contrived ethics.

They're a little snooty to put it lightly, but this is the Ghey Area so I take it with a grain of salt and just ignore them.

Arrogant as#@&%es....
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Jul 14, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
It is always bad form to set up TRs and hog a crag to the exclusion of others. It is unacceptable to set up TRs to "reserve" climbs and leave them unattended.

Under the circumstances you describe, dropping their anchors/ropes is justified -- but I guess I would say that the best course would have been to take the time to pull and coil their ropes and neatly gather their gear. Rude behavior doesn't always justify a rude response.
msiddens

Trad climber
Mountain View
Jul 14, 2011 - 05:20pm PT
man, sorry that's bad form. +++++1
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Jul 14, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
Very nice of yout to remove an attractive nuisance. SOmeone could jump on those ropes, misuse them as they are unsupervised, and the service would be liable for failure to secure their gear. They ought to thank you.

Most of the reputable guides I know would never be a high profile hog.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Jul 14, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
was it the case that they set it up and it's just one guy, and he goes back and let's his clients follow him back?

why not just use the ropes if you wanted to climb it. If you don't want to climb it with the ropes there, why not just leave it?

What time of the morning was this? When did the clients arrive? Did you stop to find out who it was?


There are more than just 'rei' guides up there, many would be willing to let you use the ropes if you wanted to climb it, or like Kev, just solo that rig.

Dropping gear doesn't change behaviors. Engaging people might.

Chango

Trad climber
norcal
Jul 14, 2011 - 09:48pm PT
I was up there Tuesday and didn't see any REI vans...but did see a local guide. I can't imagine a guide not taking down a TR setup if you asked to lead it....or let you borrow the setup to TR yourself. If the guide refuses to do either...I wouldn't hesitate to pull the rope. BTW, one heck of a nice day up there on Tuesday.
adatesman

climber
philadelphia, pa
Jul 14, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
Not sure if it is more or less passive aggressive, but simply throwing a clove up top (if it's set up as a TR) seems quicker and more satisfying to me.
Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Jul 14, 2011 - 10:09pm PT
I'm a guide and I've been on the other side of this. I've had five TRs set at Goat Rock at once (though not in recent years).

I'm sensitive about hogging the resource, so here's what I've always done: Greet parties that show up and offer them to share my ropes. Sometimes they set up a neighboring route and return the favor.

They get to check out my industrial-strength anchors. Sometimes we swap beta. I get to warn naive climbers about some sketchy bolts and how I back them up. Over many years I have not felt a grudge coming from any of the climbers I've met there.

You made a couple of assumptions:

1.) They were actually going to hog the resource and exclude you.
(You assumed that but didn't know. If it were me, you would have been wrong.)

2.) Their anchors would exclude you from setting your anchors in parallel.
(There's lots of room up there. I've seen 3, 4, 5 anchors overlapping but not interfering with each other. The main anchor points are that huge bulge and the tree. Both are capable of supporting countless anchors.)

I often set up climbs there that hardly anyone else knows. It spreads the use and shares the wealth.

Let's share. Works for me.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 14, 2011 - 10:14pm PT
Munge,

The last REI incident I had out there was just before my surgery, so early march. Anyhow, I wanted to run a few solo laps on goat before heading off to climb some other stuff. Anyhow there was a large REI group there. I mentioned to him that I was gonna run a lap (not asking for permission but more of a heads up in case his clients freaked). Anyhow he said they were almost done and would I mind waiting a few minutes. This annoys me but I say ok. 25 minutes later he finally gets two people down from two separate ropes and proceeds to tie more in. So now I tell him rather assertively I'm running a lap or two while he gets his people tied in. He tells me not to. I say ok, smile at him, finish my beer, then start climbing. It was quite funny actually. He got his panties all in a bunch. That's when I realized I'm just going to do my thing up there and if someone has a problem with it tough.

Had a similar problem out their with some old fart with kids sometime this year too.

But recently this cub scout troop was quite happy to have some help from the soloist. This poor kid was so petrified he couldn't rappel but with a little help he was able to and he got his merit badge. I mention this because not all the groups out there are d-bags.

Interestingly enough many of the 'guides' out there aren't registered and actually acting illegally. Doubt the big operations are but...Anyhow there clearly seems to be an attitude of ownership of the rock by the REI folks but the fact is they don't own it so you should just go climb your way and ignore them. If they aren't there move their sh#t and set up your own rope. They only reason they maintain this sense of ownership is that we give it to them. So stop allowing them to be entitled!

Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 15, 2011 - 11:29am PT
Skip, once again you show your true color by hiding behind a computer and critizing other people on subjects that you yourself don't get out and do. Pretty fricking lame. Get a life.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 15, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
You admit harming their equipment.

Skipt, so you don't have any booty gear?

You retire all gear you dropped?

Seriously your post seems really...weird.

kev
Tfish

Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:09pm PT
I'm sure you've done that route a few times. Why didn't you just move on and go find a random line you've never tried or only done once? What would you have done if it was just packed with other normal climbers? I could see maybe if you drove like 3 hours to get a route you've been dreaming of but just an easy route that a people are learning on? I agree thats lame they left it, but you're a kook for ruining their gear with your hissy fit.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
Pull it. Don't drop the hardware.

Many areas have regs sbout commercial use and limits on group sizes. Check it.

Also express your displeasure to the operator. If it is REI, issue a complaint to their offices. Tell them climbers have noted and are taking their business elsewhere.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
"That is the definition of actionable where I come from."

Legal remedy? Hahaha, you are gonna take him to court for a $10 dropped biner? Thats silly...

martygarrison

Trad climber
Washington DC
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
+1 for Doug. I used to do this same thing at Jtree. Setup a number of top ropes for my clients (normally 5 or 6). Then offered them to any other climbers who wished to used them. If anyone wanted to lead a climb I would pull my ropes down. Never had a problem and had some really fun days meeting new folks. Now just setting up the rock with no clients around is bad form...IMHO.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
From the first post
TR's were set up, but no one was around. Everyone was back at the parking lot NOT CLIMBING.
Rather rude, inconsiderate and selfish behavior on the guide's part. If you didn't want to personally confront him (the best option) and you needed the anchor for yourself, you could have pulled the gear up to the top, dismantled his belay, set your own and gone on with your life. When he came back with his clients, he'd have gotten the message.
It's my understanding that paid guides at any State Park are required to have a concession. I've seen REI vans at CRSP and I've also spoken with a guide I've seen there a few times. He seems a heads up guy and is an employee of a well known east side guiding service. He said his service has a concession.
If you think you have a legitimate complaint you could certainly contact California State Parks.
Karl Tallman
Mountain Sector Superintendent
California State Parks - Santa Cruz District
101 Big Trees Park Rd., Felton, CA, 95018
(831) 335-6316
They could then remind all guide concessions that this was inappropriate behavior.

Goat Rock is a wide face with three widely spaced and easily accessed top rope anchors. How was it that the deserted gear was spoiling your day?

Edited to correct address and phone number
and to note that the OP never said it was REI.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
+ another 1 for Doug.

My fuse gets blown when I see guides (or even just regular groups) hogging all the lines on a small crag. But there's better ways to deal with the frustration in such a case.

For example, you could have simply used their gear if you were TR'ing. If you were leading, pull the rope out of the way and coil it or hang it off to the side. Then, if and when the folks come back to use their gear, you could tell them how inappropriate it is to leave stuff hanging around in a state park.

The devil on one side says "Give their rope a core shot." The angel says "teach them what's right."

You never know, maybe it was a group of co-eds who wanted to climb on a hot summer day.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
Somebody needs to get a little further from town.








Jus' sayin'.






sheesh!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
For those un-familiar with the Bay area:
CRSP has a very good mix of trad, toprope and high quality bouldering routes in over a dozen areas. It's 30 minutes from San Jose, 1 1/2 hours from Berkeley. It has beautiful and long hiking trails.
Goat Rock is a 20 - 30 minute hike from the nearest parking and is in a spectacular near-wilderness location. The next nearest significant climbing area is the Pinnacles, 2 hours south from San Jose and 3 from Berkeley. Usually too hot to climb there in the summer. Next major crags are in various places in the Sierra foothills, 2 - 3 hours from the Bay area.
So Castle Rock State Park is definitely a main attraction for hikers and climbers. In many ways it is an example of the stress between popular use and a semi-wilderness area. All users need to speak up responsibly and try to work with each other and park management.
Fred Glover
bogie

Gym climber
Mountain View, CA
Jul 15, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
I experienced the same situation at Cragmont in Berkeley back in May or June. The group who set up the TRs was "Living Social". More like "Living Sociopaths" HAHAHAHAHA


but seriously, I called the local police and told them someone has monopolized the park and is charging people to use it. I didn't stick around to see what happened.

kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 15, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
Fatty,

Mattress? I'm not on a rope.

kev
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 15, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
All,

Please do not go to the superintendent of the park (or anyone else
of authority associated with the park). Summit is already closed,
there are rumblings of other things becoming closed, etc. We don't
need that kinda publicity as climbers.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 15, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
kev
You and I are usually in disagreement on the best approach to preserve our climbing areas. In this case particularly. The "offending party", if there was indeed an offense, is, or should be, a park concessionaire. They are therefore quite rightly under the purview of the State Park management. When "we" raise our concern in a respectful way I believe we'll be treated respectfully.

I don't suggest that anyone except the OP complain to the park management since the rest of us are only offering hearsay opinions.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 15, 2011 - 03:15pm PT
HT,

If the current climate up there wasn't much more anticlimber than it's been in a long time I would totally agree with you. Just seems like right now we don't need any publicity with the man. I'm not sure how much you've been involved (or following) with the access fund and their/our attempt to get summit reopened but my 'avoid the man' wrt (with respect to) this issue is in light of what's been happening up there lately, not in general. In the past I have been involved in public input, etc in a number of areas - just think that this is the wrong time for this place....

kev
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Jul 15, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
Educate yourself on what the regs are - that doesn't involve talking to the man.

Talk to the guide, the guiding service, the guiding service's headquarters (if applicable).

Talk to the AF Rep/RC whomever the access guru is.

Climbers should always avoid airing the dirty laundry in front of authorities. They don't distinguish between us, and we risk losing all because we are too much trouble, unmanageable, etc. That is what my 20+ years of negotiating access issues taught me. For some venues, guides are perceived to be a strong ally in managing the resource and keeping a lid on reckless climbers. For other venues, they are perceived as exploiters of a public resource, generating crowds.

Keep in mind - no one was there, and you did get to climb.

I'd be yapping at the guide service operator to be more respectful. I'd also appeal to their risk adverse nature. You have no idea what has happened to ropes left alone, and you've left an open invitation to climb using them. You don't know who or what will mess with them, tie into them, etc.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 15, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
All the guides posting here seem to be doing it right. I've seen Bob Gaines and Clark Jacobs pull ropes when someone wanted to get on a route. Just good business, really. As Kurt Vonnegut wrote, "Love may fail, but courtesy will always prevail."

Boy Scout leaders seem the worse as far as thinking they own the rock, in my experience.

At Atlantis Wall one day, a huge group of "at risk" youth was top roping a lot of routes. Their "guides" offered to let us climb on their ropes. Fortunately we'd already seen what they considered to be anchors. So I'm surprised you guys jump on anchors you don't know.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 15, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
RJ,

Hmmm now that might not be a bad idea...

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 15, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
Has anyone else noticed that the OP hasn't made another post?
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Jul 15, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
No. We like talking to ourselves.
neversummer

Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Jul 15, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
maybe he/she was the guide that actually got his/her gear yanked and was feeling it out with us.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 15, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
HT,

Yeah I noticed that too. I think the post was more of a rant...

kev

EDIT:

Wes,

Nice joke -LMAO...
apogee

climber
Jul 15, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
^^^ Yeah, I noticed that.

"My fuse gets blown when I see guides (or even just regular groups) hogging all the lines on a small crag."

To my eye, the majority of organized groups at any of the crags I frequent are lead by rock climbing instructors or facilitators.

True guides are much more professional, and rarely have such negative encounters with others at the crags. They tend to select crags that are lesser used, or if they are at a popular crag, they tend be guiding smaller groups, or are very accommodating about allowing others to climb through (i.e. Doug's strategy)

The problem, and the poor reputation comes from inexperienced amateur leaders (who often refer to themselves as 'guides') such as college outdoor programs, church groups, scout groups, climbing clubs, school programs, experiential education programs, and yes, REI's Outdoor Programs. I've had plenty of territorial reactions from such amateurs, and they make a bad name for the profession of guiding.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 15, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
apogee,

What you say is prolly a more accurate representation of what happens up there (Castle Rock.) A friend of mine works for YSMG and he is extremely professional.

kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 15, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
Did we all just get trolled?
apogee

climber
Jul 15, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
"Did we all just get trolled? "

The thought occurred to me, but if it resulted in an opportunity to address the knee-jerk reaction that many had towards the 'guides' in the first page of this thread, and clarify the difference, I'm good with it.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 15, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
If so it was very well executed.
Please don't encourage it. ;-)
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 15, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
To be clear, all the Exum guides I know in SLC are top notch folks.


Exum guides put a premium on professionalism, discretion and goodwill ....and in diluting elitism. Some world class climber's employment was not maintained because...well, they were judgement, congeniality or hygienically challenged.

A charm school for climbing guides?

...Exum or JHMG as teacher/trainers.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 15, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
Former guide here. Doug Answered it quite well. BTW, this is still my defacto policy on top ropes for me personally. If I set it up, feel free to join in. I want to share as much as possible. Leading, same gig, glad to move out of the way so you can pass on your free solo or what ever...although it's rare someone needs to ask. The few times it's occured, we were behind slower parties, and you won't be passing us (talking to YOU, bitch from Boulder, colo who walked up to us waiting for all these parties to move up so we could get on the climb still at the base, while you slept in and then got pissy about the folks and wanted to go in front of us despite the fact that you could see 3 parties stacked ahead of us person to person -and then you climbed slower than the whole f*#king pelaton anyway you f*#king whiny cunt)
I'm sensitive about hogging the resource, so here's what I've always done: Greet parties that show up and offer them to share my ropes.

Thanks for the wisdom Doug. If you have something to say to the guide service, they have telephones (hoping for clients) AND are always interested in maintaining good relations. Don't damage or sabotage folks stuff cause you are mad.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 16, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
If someone has a fixed rope on something, and they've walked away and left it for more then 15 minutes, then it seems to me that pulling their gear and dropping their ropes is totally acceptable. Maybe don't drop the biners, but leave them at the base. No way should someone tie something up without it being in use unless its private property IMO. Doesn't matter if its a guide service or private party. Now they can fix ropes and leave them with the hope that no one comes along, but if someone does, they need to understand that common courtesy rules.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 16, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
Now if we all just got over the idea that toproping had much to do with climbing...
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jul 16, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
The "authorities" at Castle Rock State Park have enacted a series of Byzantine rules for obtaining guiding permits there. Planet Granite used to conduct outdoor classes at Castle but abandoned the program because it was so hard to meet the State's requirements, like providing a list of clients two weeks in advance of the date of the guided climbing or instruction session. REI is the last group that I know of who've taken the trouble to go through the application process with State Parks and meet their stringent requirements.

My point is that it's not a good idea to bring up any problems with climbing at CRSP because State Parks would just love to enact an even more rigid set of guiding rules. If REI continues to guide there, other groups may get in the door too. My feeling is that the more people who guide at Castle, the more the authorities will have to accept rock climbing as a legitimate activity within the Park. Harder for them to ban it too.
apogee

climber
Jul 16, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
That's an interesting take on how the presence of an outdoor program at CRSP might actually enhance climbing access in the long run. (REI's Outdoor School is not a rock climbing guide service by any stretch of a professional's imagination, though.) If access became threatened, REI's 800 lb gorilla weight would be useful to have around.

In respect to REI's affect on outdoor education and guiding programs, though, the reality that they exist at all has a current, tangible negative effect for other programs. I'm skeptical the theoretic trade-off is worth it.
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Jul 17, 2011 - 03:28am PT
The Facts:
Many National and State Parks have written rules in regard to "fixed" ropes. For example, Yosemite National Park has written rules prohibiting fixed ropes beyond a 24 hour period and that rule applies to recreational climbers and commercial guiding/instruction within the Park.

My company holds a commercial use permit in Castle Rock State Park and on many other public lands. There are no stated rules on fixed ropes (only a stated prohibition on new bolting) in Castle Rock State Park. This forum topic has encouraged me to re-read our Castle Rock State Park commercial use permit as recently as a few minutes ago, so I know for a fact no such rules in regard to leaving ropes attached to anchors are stated in the Castle Rock State Park commercial use permit. Nor are any rules in regard to fixed ropes stated on the information board @ the Castle Rock State Park entrance or on information posted on the ranger kiosk, both of which I have read each time I have visited Castle Rock State Park and did so as recently as 2 weeks ago.

The aforementioned all being true (no difference what any given climber thinks the ethics involved in leaving ropes up may or may not be) anyone leaving a top rope set up unattended on a route for a few hours @ Castle Rock State Park would not being doing anything in violation of the specific written rules of the Castle Rock State Park recreational or commerical rock climbing policies. Contrary to this, anyone who chooses to remove someone's personal gear from any given anchor (a guides or recreational climbers) and causes damage to that gear by purposely dropping it to the ground (as super topo forum member "Shitguy" says he did) or any other purposefully harmful action to anyones gear is with out a doubt violating California State Law, which clearly prohibits people from purposefully causing damage to another persons (or entities) personal property.

My Opinion: First of all, I highly doubt any permitted guides/instructors intentions were "staking claims" (as stated by super topo forum member "Shitguy") by setting up a top rope and leaving it for a little while. Allegations by (super topo member name "Shitguy") of "Castle Rock Guides staking claims" by leaving a top rope up while unattended are preposterous at best. I am confident that most guides/instructors aim to seek less traveled crags, but if for some reason they are in a popular area and other climbers show up, most guides/instructors will typically approach the other climbers and see if they can find ways to share the rocks. I am also positive that if any climber simply talked to/approached any legitimate permitted guide/instructor who is using any top rope anchor/anchors on any public lands, the guide/instructor would gladly discuss/help figure out some type of agreeable solution for sharing the rock/routes. Calling the police and/or rangers or removing and/or damaging gear, seems far from a reasonable first course of action on any climbers part in these situations, especially without even talking to the guide/instructor first and discussing some type of solution.

More over, if any climber comes across a rope attached to any given anchor @ Castle Rock State Park or anywhere else, and it appears to be a top rope set up , and nobody is around to ask about it, it would seem more reasonable for that climber to simply build another anchor for the same route, which for example @ Castle Rock State Park is typically very easily done by using the same bolts, or if traditional gear and/or tying off trees/rocks, etc is required, just find a slightly different spot for your gear/anchor that will work for the same route and just go climbing!

If all climbers (guides and recreational climbers alike) do not communicate with each other and try to find reasonable solutions amongst themselves to any given issue at the crags and instead choose to damage other climbers gear, remove other climbers gear, file complaints, call the police, rangers, etc, it is only a matter of time before the land management agencies/departments further restrict and/or ban all commercial and recreational climbing activities.

Sincerely,
Zeke Federman (my real name, I sign all my super topo posts, my company & contact info easily found on the internet)
President
Sierra Rock Climbing School, Inc

Mangy Peasant

Social climber
Riverside, CA
Jul 17, 2011 - 10:23am PT
Zeke,

The OP's point (trolling or not) still stands:

Setting up a bunch of unattended top ropes in a popular area with a limited number of routes is just not cool.

Your post sounds like you are trying to use lawyer-talk to argue otherwise. It's not a legal issue - it's basic courtesy.

(Tossing someone's biners off the rock would be uncool as well, but I question whether the OP really did that - possibly he was just creating some dramatic effect for the post.)

Your proposed solution - that climbers should simply "communicate with each other" - is bogus in this case, as there was no one around to communicate with! It was the guide service that failed to communicate when they left the scene.

Any profession who chooses to use public resources to make a profit should adapt to accommodate the public who owns that resource - not the other way around.

In other words: non-professional, recreational climbers should get first dibs.






jstan

climber
Jul 17, 2011 - 10:45am PT
From reading the Sierra Rock Climbing School's post above it seems evident that school has spelled out the manner in which it intends to operate going into the future. A position has been "staked out." If I had a group of paying customers coming at 8AM and I needed to have six climbs ready for top roping, I would be rigging them by 7AM at the latest and I would not hire five additional people so that they all might be "attended."

Public areas are being staked out for commercial operations.

The managers of public lands need to be aware of the conflict that is developing.

Sooner being better than later.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Jul 17, 2011 - 10:45am PT
I am confident that most guides/instructors aim to seek less traveled crags

At CRSP, this statement is definitely NOT true! *Every single time* I've been there, usually with some newer climbers (in a small group), we've had our (easier) route choices severely limited by large, crag-hogging guided groups at the *most popular crags*!

Granted, there aren't that many crags tall enough to be worth climbing at CRSP, but let's not pretend the guided groups are bushwhacking to some 12' obscure cliff to avoid interfering with everyone else. Good on you, Zeke, if you're actually doing that, but that hasn't been my experience.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 17, 2011 - 12:17pm PT
The aforementioned all being true (no difference what any given climber thinks the ethics involved in leaving ropes up may or may not be) anyone leaving a top rope set up unattended on a route for a few hours @ Castle Rock State Park would not being doing anything in violation of the specific written rules of the Castle Rock State Park recreational or commerical rock climbing policies.

The fact that the "aforementioned" may not be technically in violation of posted Park policy doesn't keep it from being an asshat maneuver. Moreover, given the current liability cluster in US courts, if I were a guide service, I would be really worried about leaving my ropes installed but unattended at a public cliff frequented by great packs of roaming and often unattended children and drunks.

I'm not an expert on "attractive hazard" findings in recent years, but I'd probably try to become one quickly.

I had some sympathy for the OP's frustration with the situation, but had felt pretty critical of his solution. But after reading Zeke's proclamation, I'm reconsidering.

John's right: Zeke, your post is not likely to win friends and influence people.
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Jul 17, 2011 - 12:26pm PT
Zeke - So your response to allegations of discourteous climber behavior is to claim that Government regulations do not forbid it? You are weak, man!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 17, 2011 - 12:32pm PT
so I know for a fact no such rules in regard to leaving ropes attached to anchors are stated in the Castle Rock State Park commercial use permit. Nor are any rules in regard to fixed ropes stated on the information board @ the Castle Rock State Park entrance or on information posted on the ranger kiosk, both of which I have read each time I have visited Castle Rock State Park and did so as recently as 2 weeks ago.

The aforementioned all being true (no difference what any given climber thinks the ethics involved in leaving ropes up may or may not be) anyone leaving a top rope set up unattended on a route for a few hours @ Castle Rock State Park would not being doing anything in violation of the specific written rules of the Castle Rock State Park recreational or commerical rock climbing policies.

I don't think there is any rule saying I cannot take your rig down and maybe chop the rope either! Afterall it's unattended property. It's f*#king booty!

Most climbers have respect in such scenarios, but if guides keep this crap up, it's gonna get nasty. If you cannot see that you're a fool, or just clueless and insensitive to other climbers around you.

Lame.
apogee

climber
Jul 17, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
It's worth keeping in mind that this thread has troll-like characteristics to it. If not driven by a simple jdf-like goal to simply inflame, one has to wonder what the OP's motivations were.

Zeke, you know what your CRSP SUP says better than I do, but as a longtime holder and manager of SUP's & CUA's on various public lands, I also know that for all of the details included in some of them, there are usually wide gray areas that leave management strategies up to the judgement of the program. My point is, while CRSP may not be explicit in whether fixed ropes are acceptable, most experienced, professional guiding programs (yourself included, of course) and the climbing public know that leaving ropes fixed on a bunch of climbs, leaving them unattended for long periods of time, or even excluding/preventing access to them by other users, are just not reasonable or professional practices. I know that we are in agreement on that point.

Legal implications aside, purposely dropping the gear of someone who pissed you off is a dick-move, even if they really were jerks- most of us would agree on this point, too.

I have commonly encountered organized groups at various crags who dominate the area, and oftentimes attempt to exclude access to any others while they are present. This is a common occurrence, and the comments and experiences of many in this thread attest to it- and again, it tends to occur with non-professional instructional programs- the public is unable to make the distinction, however, and the truly professional guiding programs get the negative blowback.

As you suggested, a friendly discussion with large groups like this is the best strategy for resolution- both in the short term, and more importantly, in the long term- regular instances of conflicts are sure to invite increased regulation.

Avoiding these conflicts in the first place is obviously the goal- strategies such as choosing obscure, lesser-known crags are quite effective, as are just being flexible to other users. Of course, there are areas where this is tough to do- sounds like CRSP is one of them, with a very small number of usable sites. I have to say, though, that a program has a choice of areas in which to operate- my own program has specifically chosen to not operate in some select, popular sites in So Cal because they have limited sites where it's tough to have groups &/or they create too many conflicts with the public or other groups. (Stoney Point has become one such location.)

And lastly...I will float the undoubtedly unpopular view that there is no distinction in access rights to public vs. guided groups. They are all citizens of this country, with a right to access the same lands, even if they paid someone to take them there. The bottom line is that the climbing resource really is limited, and we all have a responsibility to use it reasonably, and to respect others rights to have the experience they seek.

cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Jul 17, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
Jim - that's true. Having been part of large groups like that on occasion, I always try and make a point to share ropes with other arriving climbers (or offer to move them if they are into leading, although, not always immediately - waiting 20 minutes for a couple of people to climb is not unreasonable).

Some really fun days have ensued by sharing ropes with other groups (including the occasional guided group). At a crag like CRSP, which (imho) only has a small handful of easier, worthwhile roped routes, and is super close to an urban area, one has to expect to be sharing with a lot of other people. Hogging = definitely uncool, and expecting priority to lead easier routes without waiting a bit for a TR to clear is also unrealistic!
Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Jul 17, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
Castle Rock State Park is crowded. There are many ways to ease the situation besides sharing. I developed an alternative beginner site and used it about half the time. Talked it up with other guides. We rarely saw anyone there except guided groups.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 17, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
Setting top ropes in popular areas is common (see definition for popular area) but not cool. Someone who wants to lead a climb should always get preference over a top rope- that's what its all about, leading.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 17, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
the problem isn't the gangroping (well, it sort of is, but that's a different issue).

there are two problems in the csrp scenario, the first is the issue of setting TRs early to claim the area and then leaving them unattended. i just don't see that as a viable longterm practice at CRSP, where there is a really limited quantity of quality rock. JT is different, probably for the foreseeable future.

Zeke's position is that as long as he stays within the letter of posted policy, everything is peachy. That means he and his underpaid serfs could guide until dark, take the ropes down for fifteen minutes while the clients are stumbling back to the cars, then re-install them and stake their turf for the next day-- over and over, since it wouldn't violate the 24hr abandonment policy.

i idon't see much of a future for zeke's preferred practice.

lots of areas in the alps, many services do as DR did at CRSP, i.e., develop semi-proprietary areas. at other popular locations ive seen, it's first come-first served.

politeness and management issues aside, i think it's insanely dicey for a guide service (or other organization like the BSA or whatever) to hang-- and then leave unattended --ropes on a cliff in a state park in a major metropolitan area that is frickin crawling with kids and families and randoms. just a matter of time before you have something bad happen that doesn't involve other climbers at all.

first six yr old to yard up and then pitch from on of those unattended ropes is gonna create major problems for everyone.
apogee

climber
Jul 17, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
coz, skip is agreeing with you. Might want to take note of that.
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Jul 17, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
I was not @ castle rock last tuesday, and more importantly, some folks here stated I'm a "weak man" for stating the simple truth/law. REALLY! My point in general was its not cool to purposely damage someone's gear for ANY reason and climbers should communicate and work issues out, not resort to such things as damaging gear, calling cops/rangers, etc which rarely results in any action to anyones advantage anyway. As usual only a few people actually post real names on this forum and in the end its only a handful of folks like Doug R, John/Apogee, Coz/Scott cozgrove and a few other folks who have any intelligent statements to make. Calling people names, and being rude, etc is uncalled for here.

If I ever have any issues @ the crag with any of you or you have issues with me for any reason, commercially related or otherwise, lets just talk, its not that hard, you all seem to have alot to say on a forum, why not say this stuff in person? I'm sure we can work it out.

After all, we are all climbers
Zeke Federman - My real name, contact me via email me if you have any issues with me or wish to have a real conversation - info@sierrarockclimbingschool.com
Jake M.

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Jul 17, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
I taught climbing at Castle rock for over 10 years and every service I ran into, including us, got up early and set up TR's at Goat rock when we had larger groups. Never once did I think I was taking a route away from a "unguided" climber, since Goat rock is a beginner area with routes in to 5.4-5.6 range, ideal for first timers. Climbers with any experience go elsewhere.

The early TR set up was done both to save time once the clients arrived, and stake our claim in terms of other guide services. I knew, and had friendships with, many of the regular guides at Goat rock. We all understood the unwritten protocol, and actually worked together (by moving our own ropes to accommodate the other instructor's clients) in an effort to make sure everyone got the climbing time they paid for. We even coordinated with each other on occasion to avoid overcrowding.

I remember having positive interactions with other instructors and climbers, and believe this is a non-issue.

In my opinion, this thread may have been started by a unfamiliar Goat Rock guide who got "beat" out to the rocks. My advice, talk to the people in the parking lot, set up ropes next to theirs, be firm about your clients' needs, and work it out. They are in the same boat as you and will understand.
apogee

climber
Jul 17, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
"...this thread may have been started by a unfamiliar Goat Rock guide who got "beat" out to the rocks..."

Very good possibility. Such sour grapes incidents like that are well-known to generate rants like this.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jul 17, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
I know that Goat Rock is super convenient for guiding and teaching beginners. But I never understand why guide services operating at Castle don't set up TR on Underworld Rock, the Waterfall Cliff, Shady Rock or Last Temptation Cliff? This would spread out the crowds and stake out other areas for guiding and teaching. True, Goat Rock does have a bunch of easy routes that beginners are sure to get up and enjoy, but that doesn't mean there aren't scads of easy routes in other areas too. Too bad, Summit Rock is closed down all year for raptor nesting or that area would take some of the pressure off of Goat. But that's my current obsession!
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Jul 17, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
Coz and John,
I'm certainly not on supertopo playing the game of trying to win any friends.I do consider Coz a friend and consider John to be a business associate that I have always been on good terms with.
apogee

climber
Jul 17, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
"How would you feel if a group of unguided beginners got to Goat Rock and "staked out" turf before you arrived??????"

I don't really see a difference, fattrad. Doesn't matter if it's a guided group or a 'unguided' group of friends/family/etc. The same tactic of respect for others and efforts to share the site are appropriate.

That said, I personally try to avoid popular areas with medium-large size groups altogether, and have several backup plans in mind if Plan A just isn't feasible.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 17, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
I'm certainly not on supertopo playing the game of trying to win any friends















(just kiddin' - love ya babes!)
jstan

climber
Jul 17, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
From the above it seems we now have commercial groups vying with each other to stake out desirable public resources entirely ignoring members of the general public.

Apparently we are already on a path leading to parties feeling they are being injured. It is the job of area managers to deal with this.

Let them do their job.
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Jul 17, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
Zeker - Sorry I called you weak. Since I've never met you, obviously that opinion carries no weight. However, you seemed to be taking refuge in what is legal when the issue is what is ethical. The idea that government has any say in this, a question of consideration and respect between climbers, is repugnant to me.
Chris Hill
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Jul 17, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
Chris,
I was not taking a side on the ethics. I was just stating the fact that leaving a rope up there is not illegal but damaging someone's gear is illegal you are of course free to find my writing offensive. I am not here on super topo to please you I'm just exercising my freedom of speech on a topic of some interest to me.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 17, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
The ones about playing nice, and sharing - you know, the things we were all supposed to have learnt in kinder/klettergarten - seem to apply.

For any of us to behave as though we own the places where we climb, and can do as we please, is short sighted at best, foolish and a source of conflict and regulation at worst. Regardless of what the letter of the law or permits may say. Commercial climbers seem proner to this folly than others, given that their motives are as much economic as recreational.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 17, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
Well, then we soon get into economics, the tragedy of the commons, and all that. And then FatTrad will tell us that greed is good, and John E will remind us that money may not be the ideal rationing mechanism, but it's better than many known alternatives.

Assuming that there aren't enough public 'goods' - that is climbs of the desired quality, grade, accessibility, whatever - then it is necessary either to create more of what is needed, or somehow ration usage. The known rationing mechanisms - use fees, permits, commercial licences, voluntary, toprope showdowns at dawn, monopolies - all have their flaws, although usually it works out. (Not necessarily in some places in Europe, with far higher population density, better access, and more usage.) Creating more sometimes works, although it sometimes also leads to climbs and areas being dumbed down so that they're (supposedly) more accessible and can accommodate greater volume - almost always through addition of bolts. As DR and others have mentioned, it's sometimes possible for commercial users to find and create suitable alternatives.

Of course, the interests of commercial climbers (the spectrum goes from friends helping friends to volunteer youth group instructors through semi-professionals to professionals to riggers, the movie crowd, and so on - IIRC climbing guides aren't a legally recognized self-governing profession in Canada or the US, although they have a monopoly in some parks) sometimes are not the same as those of the climbing public. Nor are climbers always wise in their use of of the places that we're so lucky (and wealthy) to play in. The days of unrestricted freedom are mostly over, and often that seems desirable - imagine Yosemite if it was a free for all, without NPS guardianship, however imperfect it may sometimes be. There are places we can go and have more freedom, if we want.

(Disclosure: I am, or was, a certified climbing instructor in Norway, and worked several summers there for pay, teaching climbing. But I mostly do so now in BC on a volunteer basis - other experienced and skilled climbers helped me get started, for no compensation, and I feel that's what we should all do for others.)
apogee

climber
Jul 17, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
"Commercial climbers seem proner to this folly than others, given that their motives are as much economic as recreational."

I suppose that would largely depend on how one defines 'commercial' climber. Well-respected, professional guiding programs tend to have far fewer run-ins like the OP's- it's the more amateur-led groups (church/school/climbing clubs/REI/scouts/etc) that tend to have more of these issues.

These run-ins happen from time to time- when they happen, it would interesting to hear exactly who the group was (except for fact it would be followed by endless irrational flaming).
reddirt

climber
PNW
Jul 17, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
Jul 17, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
The Smith Rock accident is a perfect example of hogging resources as well.

link please?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jul 17, 2011 - 09:52pm PT
I', a little late getting in on this "Thrash-The-Guide" thread, but I have to say this is just stupid form on the part of the guide.

It'd be one thing if the guide, or his flunkies, hung out and climbed in the mean time while the lazy fat-asses paying for their service to showed up. But if they were not present, f*#k them, drop the gear, un-attended gear should be dropped. Provided its not on a new, unclimbed route that has an FA in progress (which Castle Rock has not seen in some time, so f*#k off).


Good job, and honest, there is no reason to post up for confirmation of your correctness of actions.

What's better for everyone:
1. You climb on top of the unattended gear possibly causing wear, possibly leading to the death of a guide or a client.
2. You show up, see the gear, cop everything in half, and play like it was all just there when you showed up, possibly ending a day begun so badly.
3. You drop the gear and have to defend yourself in front of strangers paying to be there (so they're gonna wanna get their money's worth.

In my book, you either climb, or you don't, and if you're there to guide, you show what it takes to set up a TR so that your client gets a better understanding/respect for the sport.

jstan

climber
Jul 18, 2011 - 01:47am PT
No I actually go climbing prepared to find ropes that have been fixed for months. So it is I carry a portable generator, a large screen TV, a two month supply of food, three large tents so I can put up weekend visitors, and a WiFi system so the market won't go south on me while I wait to get on the rock.

No biggie.
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Jul 18, 2011 - 04:23am PT
Yeah Dave I would because your one of those bastard guides and after I took your gear down, I would stuff it right up my rear end, saving you the trouble of getting your hands so stinky.
Degaine

climber
Jul 18, 2011 - 04:45am PT
bluering wrote:

Afterall it's unattended property. It's f*#king booty!

So does that mean that your unattended car in the parking is booty as well? How about the unattended stuff in your house when your away on vacation, or simply just away shopping, or at work (if you don't work at home)?

In other words, you're okay with stealing other people's stuff, did I get that right?
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Jul 18, 2011 - 09:57pm PT
Degaine, Well said and should be the end statement for this thread and for "Shitguy""
labrat

Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
Jul 18, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
Link.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1360959/Smith-Rock-Theif
labrat

Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
Jul 18, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
Smith Rock accident link.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1549461/Smith-Rock-Accident
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 18, 2011 - 10:46pm PT
So does that mean that your unattended car in the parking is booty as well? How about the unattended stuff in your house when your away on vacation, or simply just away shopping, or at work (if you don't work at home)?

In other words, you're okay with stealing other people's stuff, did I get that right?


Do you have any idea of the 'booty rules'??? Really?
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Jul 18, 2011 - 10:51pm PT
I know booty rules...










especially when it's attatched to J Lo or Beyonce!!!!
Shitguy

Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, California
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2011 - 01:07pm PT
Thanks for the response folks. I think alot of you feel my frustration. Skip, you're such a dork. Call the cops if you must, but you're the coward. Who would you have me direct my ire at? The unattended rope left at the crag? There was no one there. If you think I'm going to stop climbing to go find the stupid guides and lecture them on common courtesy, you must be some kind of uber troll.

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 01:44pm PT
So does that mean that your unattended car in the parking is booty as well? How about the unattended stuff in your house when your away on vacation, or simply just away shopping, or at work (if you don't work at home)?

In other words, you're okay with stealing other people's stuff, did I get that right?
Sure, if you're too thick to tell apples from oranges.

Seriously though, there is a limit to how long something is left up before it might rightfully be considered booty. If you leave something up all day in the naive belief that you've somehow staked a rightful claim to something, I don't see how you can feel justifiably ripped off if you return to find it gone. Sure the person who took them is likely a jerk, but you made the theft possible, if not likely, by leaving your stuff there all day, unattended, so you share a good part of the blame.

Personally I think the better approach is just to pull the lines, not steal them. The latter is just bad karma. The real problem is where you draw the line. Just because you intend to come back later doesn't mean you've got the right to leave it there all day, overnight, etc.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
Fat Dad, I didn't reply to that point because I thought it was obviously ridiculous.

Apples and oranges indeed!
apogee

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
apogee

climber
Jul 31, 2011 - 03:26pm PT
"Anyway, no disrespect to guides intended here. This is the first real
problem I've encountered with one."

So this incident occurred with a Scout Group?

That leader ('Scoutmaster Skip') is not a guide.

There's a difference.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Jul 31, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
shitguy wrote
Why Skip gets up so early in the morning to hang the rope is a bit disturbing when you think about it. Here, a grown man is being WAY too enthusiastic about spending his day staring at the butts of 14 to 16 year-old boys.Any parents out there really need consider these things before you send your kids out. Let's face it, pedophile's dont take paid jobs at retirement homes. They volunteer to work with kids. When Skip is driving his van up to the crags at 5 am, all bells and whistles should be going off at this point if you're a parent. Remember, Skip isnt going climbing. The only thing that should get a person out of bed this
early is the fact they are going climbing. What is the thrill in getting up super early so you can set up to belay all day?

If you have facts, you need to go the cops. Do you know this person? I thought you didn't see the person that day, that you didn't have time to go track him down. Now you know his abusive proclivities? If you are just speculating, that's an abusive ad hominem attack and seems to show your immaturity. It makes you suspect and an internet ranter, not serious about resolving the ropes issue. child abuse isn't a joking matter and not something to be tossed about to garner people to your side of the argument and justify your rope dropping.

I bet with the permitting process we could find out whose ropes those were and have the cops catch this alleged pedo. Otherwise, you sound like just so much puffery.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Jul 31, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
"The client is trying to kill you, the client is trying to kill himself and the client is trying to kill the rest of the clients." The 3 rules of mountain guiding.



klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 31, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
um, you do know that rr works with scouts?

i think zeke, the op, and skip have a bright future together.

willm

Social climber
Oakland, CA
Aug 1, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
Climbed a few climbs at Castle Rock on Saturday and sure enough, 3 climbs were camped on right of the waterfall. I showed up with a friend "15" minutes before the group was going to arrive and the guide that was hanging out by their ropes was pretty nice about letting us lead the climb before her group showed up. Nice guides but they definitely dominated 3 routes for most of the afternoon.

On another note, we did see someone else take a 15 ft ground fall while clipping his first draw on a really moderate sport climb just right of the falls. Interesting day all together...
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Aug 7, 2011 - 10:15pm PT
Shitguy,
First of all, big props go out to you "shitguy" for choosing the perfect name for your self! Nobody could say it better than you shitguy!

You drop peoples gear off of the top of Cliffs! I don't care what the circumstance is or was, nobody should drop anyones gear from a cliff, unless they are 110% sure its abandoned, and TR's are extremely unlikely to be abandoned. If a rope was really abandoned, it would most likely be a fixed line, and you know that, since you have been climbing for a while. If you think a hanging TR was "abadonded" then again, your name "shitguy" serves you well. You don't think @ a place like castle or goat, someone (guide or not) could have (like Dave Lane posted) ran to go take a dump, forgot some gear back at the car, or had some type of emergency so they needed to leave the TR rope up for a little while, only to come back and find you damaged the gear by dropping it to the ground. I guess this recent rope dropping behavior of yours is better than say leaving a young child tied up to a tree while you go bouldering, so they wont bother you, but your rope dropping and gear damaging thing is still high on your list of lame hurtful acts!

And FYI, that gear was not mine, as someone on this forum suggested, I was not working in that Park, except for 2 weeks prior to that Tuesday. However, I do know for fact who's gear it was. He contacted me recently via a Super Topo private message, and said he was surprised when he returned to see it on the ground. And then to see your post, he was disgusted. After communicating with this reasonable kind individual, I know for a fact that he had NO bad intentions, or intentions of staking any claims, he may not have used his best judgement to leave the rope up for according to him what was "about 20 minutes", but it was not done out of malice, unlike dropping and damaging gear, which you clearly did with mal intent. Shitguy, you could have just moved his rope over for gods sake and built your own anchor if you know what you are doing, or even un-clipped his TR line and clipped it out of the way until he returned or before you left, you could have just clipped it back in properly.

How freaking hard would that have been shitguy!

You should do the right thing now and apologize to that person and buy him some new carabiners. As I am sure he would have apologized if you told him your concerns and maybe you could have educated him a bit, and i'm betting he still would apologize now to you, if only you would have voiced your concerns to him in a decent manor, but instead you have chosen to just spill bad blood.

Oh wait, I'm sorry, asking for compassion, forgiveness and reasonable actions, that's way to much to ask of a "shitguy"

You have proclaimed it yourself, congrats you are no doubt the "shitguy"

HOPE TO SEE YOU IN THE PARK SOMEDAY SOON shitguy. I know who you are now, and I know you know who I am, I sign all my posts and have linked my web site below, for you to see a picture of me. Come over and chat with me next time you see me @ Castle Rock SP. I will be compassionate(to a point)and glad to talk climbing ethics and legalities with a shitguy like yourself.


Good luck to ya shitguy!


Cheers,
Zeke Federman
President Sierra Rock Climbing School ,Inc
http://www.sierrarockclimbingschool.com/guides.html
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Aug 7, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
Hey, hey, hey. Would it be okay if we all just take a moment to grease up and lunge at each other?
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Aug 8, 2011 - 01:23pm PT

This thread reminds me of a day with Cosmic out at Calico Basin in Red Rock.
There was a school group of at least a dozen students headed up to monopolize the Gnat Man crag. Cosmic followed in hot pursuit bellowing:
"Lead trumps top rope, LEAD TRUMPS TOP ROPE!"
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Sep 10, 2011 - 12:18am PT
Shitguy is accusing Boy Scouts of America members of child molestation in his last post. What the F---? Most of the BSA guys are just good dads trying to help a sons troop (they may not be the best climbers or "instructors") but I am 100% confident most have the best of intentions. Now shitguys intentions are just another subject altogether. How about the last time Shiitguy tied up a child to a tree at Castle Rock State Park so the kid would not bug him and shitguy could go bouldering? Who's the real criminal here?
ruppell

climber
Sep 10, 2011 - 12:48am PT
How about the last time Shiitguy tied up a child to a tree at Castle Rock State Park so the kid would not bug him and shitguy could go bouldering? Who's the real criminal here?

First off I realy hope that's a joke. Seems like you have a lot of sh#t to say about what shitguy did. He dropped some biners attached to a rope. I hardly think those actions are criminal. Stupid, maybe. You were accused of being the person(or in charge of the persons) who left the rig set up. I can see how you would want to defend yourself against that. As the president of a guiding service it would be your right to do so. It would also be your right to let things lie. Yet you saw the great idea to resurect a post from over a month ago? Sounds like this might be a personal issue at this point? If you know who shitguy is just send him an email. Or find his number and call him. I'm sure you two will be able to work it out. And for what it's worth I would've just climbed on those lines(after making sure the anchor was good).
mikebarter387

Social climber
Banff, Alberta
Sep 10, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
I have been a guide for 20+ years and I agree with what you did. Guides or guide companies sometimes forget that the area is to be shared, the public are the real owners and users.
The one poster is right about confronting the guides with the series of questions. The are not obligated to answer of course but most are trying to stay on the good side of land managers and the public.
Clients would be put in a awkward situation if you point out that their course is taking away from somebody else's experience. If the company in question is owner operator of they are just employees changes little. I would expect owner to know better but not always. Guides can be a arragant bunch I should know I am guilty of all these crimes at some point

http://youtube.com/mikebarter387
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Sep 10, 2011 - 11:41pm PT
I don't check super topo everyday or week like many of you do, so it was a about a month ago, last time I went to the forum, so I'm just responding to sh#t guys post in my time. I did send him a message, he wont respond because he is a "shitguy" and no I'm not kidding about the kid to tree thing. Shitguy is just as his self proclaimed name proclaims.
apogee

climber
Sep 10, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
Zeke, 'shitguy' was unquestionably a troll with some other agenda in mind. Apparently, he seems to have succeeded.
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Sep 10, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
mikebarter,
not my ropes, was not in that park on that day, I live 7 hours away from there and rarely personally climb @ or work in castle rock. As I mentioned clearly in prior post, I know the guy who got his rig dropped, he's a nice guy, reasonable and respectable guy. Did not deserve that treatment. And yes, I agree with you, just climb on the rig or move it over, again shitguy is shitguy, my last post on the matter. Unless Shitguy wants to get back on here, might take me another month to respond, forgive me for not checking ST every 24 hours!
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Sep 10, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
John/Apogee,
Shitguy was no troll, hes for real, I talked to the guy whos stuff he dropped. Shitguy from santa cruz has been hanging around castle rock for years acting like a shitguy
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Sep 10, 2011 - 11:51pm PT
Zeker, dropping gear is uncool, but so is tying up a crag while someone is shitting or is lame.


I woulda just clipped bolts and told ya we were sharing anchors.
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Sep 10, 2011 - 11:53pm PT
Bluering,
Agreed on all points/comments you just made
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Sep 10, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
Goodnight guys, chat with ya in a month or so. FYI I only get on this forum when somebody I know calls or emails me about a post they think I might like or have interest in.
zeker

Trad climber
bishop
Sep 10, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
and Mike, I love your you tube page/site, super cool, glad you are such a success! Congrats!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Sep 11, 2011 - 12:06am PT
See ya at the crag, zeker!!!!

Although, I rarely do Goat...too many people...hehe!
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