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tinker b

the commonwealth
Jun 27, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
it take balls to admit to your mistakes. thanks for doing it publicly and taking action.
I hope great escape won't be affected. I was thankful for all of the bolts there.
+1 for telling us what routes you have done here.
be well out there, I am stuck in the east for a few more months at least.

Jun 27, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
Meh, personally it's something I don't do- bolting near cracks- but I respect the FA. BTW, Weschrist has a good point in general in the ethical FA-has-bolt-authority-discussion. After someone has something wired or knows where hidden holds are, they could see a bolt as unnecessary and remove it, which would be unfair for those onsighting. So it's not really the FA person who should decide these matters, but the FA itself.

Anyway, I do not think that's pertinent here. I've climbed some of the routes in question, I'm fine with carrying gear. I assume the .10 crack near Fly Girls has been restored? I would ask you to not put them on the internet.Let quiet areas be quiet, but it's your choice.

Hey, I'm not sure if you answered your thread title. How did you become a bolt chopper?

Thanks for all the great routes!

Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jun 27, 2011 - 03:15pm PT

How many routes do you think this effort will affect?

Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Jun 27, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
Wheat Thin on the list?

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Jun 27, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
Not sure who did the FAs, but I was up at Knob Hill for the first time this weekend with my lady. The Supertopo book shows two bolts atop routes A and B (first things you see when you hit the crag). There are no bolts up top (topo shows 2 for anchors), but a good crack for cams (which I used, luckily I had plenty o' gear after leading the crack). I saw some n00bs who didn't top-rope these because the bolts were missing.

I only mention this to be devil's advocate... bolt removal might create some minor epics for folks who didn't get the memo! But we all climb at our own risk :)
Captain...or Skully

or some such
Jun 27, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
Good on ya, Dan.
Mighty Hiker

Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 27, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
nutjob has a good point - whether adding bolts to or removing them from existing routes, it's very important to ensure that climbers are informed as to what you're doing, and why, and can offer feedback.

Roger Brown and associates specialize in restoring existing routes, mainly by replacing anchors. Another angle of these sorts of activities, which requires research into the history of each route, what anchors were originally placed, and what (if any) have become necessary due to environmental change, or accepted by community consensus. A nice, minimalist approach.

Trad climber
Jun 28, 2011 - 12:45am PT
. . . .cookie monster
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 28, 2011 - 02:17am PT
I'm not sure how much difference it makes either way but since their Dan's routes, I defer to his judgment.

Personally sanitation wall and chapel wall have basically been established just sport climb walls, and having know which particular cams are required for a sport climb is a mixed blessing. Then you really have to know some beta, instead of just jumping on some hard 11 or easy 12 clip up.

It seems though the community likes the idea so rock 'n roll Dan!


Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Jun 28, 2011 - 03:18am PT
What is your business here.....let me see your passport.........hmmmmmm.....your papers are not in order.......what is your name in lie.......

Social climber
superslacker city
Jun 28, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
nutjob, i think the anchor you are talking about at knob hill i may have put in years ago. however i will not be removing any anchors, only changing them out to stainless. for example recently the afterburner anchor at sanitation (which was total chos was redone. karl all of the affected routes are 5.10s that are now mixed routes, any weird pro areas of these routes still have bolts, but any obvious cam placements have had the bolts removed. a single rack of cams and a few nits protects these climbs easily) all affected routes are steep and you can see anchor, all remaining bolts and what size the crack is from the base. my priorities are still to work on anchors for all my routes and any nearby that may need repair, so everywhere i climb i have the kit and breaker bar. however i will not be removing bolts that others have placed. i will not be removing bolts from routes that are multi pitch, like the great escape, i have my hands full just doing the short routes.
why did i become a bolt chopper?
something weird happens when you have a kid. your thinking process changes and you try to set a better example to others (especially the youth)
and it is more fun doing mixed routes with gear!
also i should add that these routes are now more protectable than ever and actually less sporty as you dont have to run it out to a bolt, but you can place a couple pieces in that distance if you like.
if you get up to a spot where there is a bolt and your wondering why i didnt pull it, since its next to a crack, check the solidity of the location by tapping on the rock with one of your carabiners to see if the rock is hollow, i will be leaving bolts where there is any question of saftey, that has always been my first priority!
if i decide to remove something like the last bolt of poker face, which was added after my brother inlaw took a 40' meatgrinderslider i will post this type of info as i dont want put anyone in that type of surprise situation on the sharp end
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 28, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
I respect your decisions Dan, because you've always put up routes with good experiences for your fellow climbers in mind as you've done so.

thank you

Karl for
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jun 28, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
your logic is sound and your methods spot on. I would do SS glue in anchors for ultimate long term beef..
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 28, 2011 - 03:58pm PT
Rox wrote

Continue undoing the damage you have done. Its a good way to show contrition. But don't think it absolves you of the original guilt of what you have done. Perhaps you can go and give anti bolting lectures as community service.

Refuse to have your name associated with them routes, burn your notes to your latest attempt at a "guide book", renounce your pride and admit you are nobody special.

Then I think you may eventually learn humility and your proper place in the world.

You ain't all that.

Rox, if you don't have detailed knowledge of Dan's routes, you should consider backing off the keyboard. I don't think he deserves anything you've written and I've known him for decades.

I believe his routes have been positive contributions, both in their original form, and however he might choose to improve them.

and I've enjoyed his routes for decades


Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Jun 28, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
Reminds me of a story about a certain chicken;...everyone wants to CLIMB the routes, but nobody wants to install/maintain the bolts, pay for the bolts, find the routes, name the routes, and figure out where the fixed stuff goes;...oftentimes on the lead............but everyone is still an expert on where and how this stuff is to be done.......very interesting. Dan;...thanks for all the hard work you do putting up these new routes for all to enjoy; the way you feel is best......thank you..........Everyone else;....feel free to put your own routes up in the way you wish........we still have these freedoms at many of our crags.....amen....

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jun 28, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
My view is minority on this one, but once bolts have been placed, leave 'em in. Suppose a low income climber who can't afford expensive camming devices wants to do the route? So let him protect it with the bolts, and let those who have the pro gear pass the bolts up.

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 28, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
Suppose a low income climber who can't afford expensive camming devices wants to do the route? So let him protect it with the bolts, and let those who have the pro gear pass the bolts up.

Hard to express the so many ways this sentiment is diametrically opposed to everything I think about regarding climbing.
The Alpine

Big Wall climber
Jun 28, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
What got the chop on the Tioga Cliff?
the Fet

Jun 28, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
Good work.

As you can see there are some very miserable people who post here. As we know misery loves company; so just ignore them.

My twin brother's laundry room
Jun 28, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
Good for you Dan. It's cool to see you out at the crag all the time.
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