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tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
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Jun 27, 2011 - 01:24am PT
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thanks!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jun 27, 2011 - 01:25am PT
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Dan,
can you give an idea of one affected climb?
In today's day and age of sportboltitall.com, that's a strong statement. I think you're right that bolting next to cracks is unwarranted and that bolts next to cracks set a bad precedent, unless the gear is highly questionable or likely to break the flake.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 27, 2011 - 01:25am PT
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YAY!!!!!!
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Jun 27, 2011 - 01:50am PT
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Sheesh.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 27, 2011 - 01:54am PT
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You'll need a name change to 'untwisted'.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jun 27, 2011 - 01:55am PT
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Now, that's some ethical juju, good karma stuff coming your way, for sure.
Upgrading those routes, so the wee ones see how it's done these days.
Thanx.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jun 27, 2011 - 02:38am PT
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You're setting a great example of how things should and are getting done these days. It makes for a more asthetic and enjoyable line without all that unnatural steel marking the way.
Now, if we could only get these WANKERS around Tahoe to follow suit.
They'll come around eventually.
Thank You!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 27, 2011 - 02:46am PT
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Thanks, Dan. Should bump up the quality. We are lucky to have so many good cracks (or even just a few) - they make the game more interesting!
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adventurous one
Trad climber
Truckee Ca.
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Jun 27, 2011 - 02:47am PT
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NICE!!!!! Hope it sets an example for others to reconsider some of the un-needed bolts they have placed. Figuring out the pro is half the fun sometimes. A commendable thing to do!
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dfinnecy
Social climber
'stralia
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Jun 27, 2011 - 05:07am PT
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+1
I dig it.
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Degaine
climber
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Jun 27, 2011 - 05:11am PT
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i will be sure to list the changes for the upcoming guidebook.
Could you please list the routes and changes here (and why not on mountainproject)?
That way the information will be out immediately, instead of waiting for the guidebook. Thanks.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jun 27, 2011 - 08:59am PT
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Why did you place them the first time if you are just going to turn around and change your mind? Around here for new routes, it's more de-regiuer to leave something unbolted, get others feedback, and only then put it in. No offense, but shouldn't you have thought it out better? Along those lines, do you feel you are more sure of what needs to be done in the way of "doing the right thing" (others views saying WTF? afte they climb your route) on the removal front?
Good luck on either case.
in the last month and a half ive removed over 25 bolts from sport routes in and around yosemite. sanitation wall, chapel wall, pat and jack cliff, tioga crags.
these were bolts placed where crack gear could be used, and i wanted to let people know to bring some extra gear for these crags. i should be done with this work in a few months, i have over a hundred routes to think about, and get to, at the appropriate time of year.
i am only removing bolts that i have placed!
its more fun placing a few cams and nuts! what was i thinking???
i will be sure to list the changes for the upcoming guidebook.
dan mcdevitt
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jun 27, 2011 - 09:30am PT
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What in the world makes you think he put the routes up in the first place?
Edit: my bad. too early in the morning for reading comprehension.
Go Dan! Yosemite ain't no sport gym.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jun 27, 2011 - 10:01am PT
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Good for you, Dan......if that is your choice, and you placed them;....then that should be respected. You are a wise person, establish many first ascents for all to enjoy, and are a major creative force. Unfortunately, not all Bolt Choppers are like you. Many chop bolts for other reasons than to make the routes the way they should be. Some chop routes to piss someone off, get back at someone, teach someone a "lesson", make routes dangerous, pump up their low self-esteem,...or some other twisted personal vendetta that gets people hurt or killed, or messes with friendships and fun. Good luck with your quest, and keep you vision clear and true. You are an example of doing things right for the right reasons;....I hope others take note..................................(and now you got some extra hangers for your new projects;.....yeeehooooo!)
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Lurking Fear
Boulder climber
Bishop, California
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Jun 27, 2011 - 10:01am PT
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Dan,
Good work. There is nothing wrong with fixing your mistakes. I agree that people will get more out of the leads if they think about gear placements and the routes will look aesthetic. Thanks, Andrew.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 27, 2011 - 10:35am PT
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You're letting your conscience be your guide, which is a good thing.
Are any of these routes considered classics?
Are they on walls surrounded by other sport routes?
And what is your criteria for removal?
I mean, I don't think you placed bolts right next to super bomber placements... and as with sport climbs everywhere, you COULD stop and dink in an rp...but...
Just wondering.
And btw, I like those mixed, connect (ambiguously)protectable features kind of climbs. It USED to be the ethic here at Mt Lemmon.
I also like straight up sport routes, even ones with bolts next to "protectable" features.
Do your thing!
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Jun 27, 2011 - 10:42am PT
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Forget the bolts
I want to hear about the new BOOK
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M. Volland
Trad climber
Grand Canyon
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Jun 27, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
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Dan,
I was climbing in the shade at Lower Cathedral Rock a while ago, and climbed a crack called End of the Line .10c. Great crack, but it has one bolt protecting a mantle and reach move. Small cams could be placed right next to the bolt. I was told that you have bolted in this area. Did you put this pitch up? If so, you should consider it for your removal project.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 27, 2011 - 12:24pm PT
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Dan- Thanks for being the clean-up guy!
There is a lot of stupid and unnecessary bolting going on out there these days.
Thanks for giving a damn about keeping it clean!
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George R
climber
The Gray Area
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Jun 27, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
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Good work Dan !
G
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Jun 27, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
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it take balls to admit to your mistakes. thanks for doing it publicly and taking action.
I hope great escape won't be affected. I was thankful for all of the bolts there.
+1 for telling us what routes you have done here.
be well out there, I am stuck in the east for a few more months at least.
jolynne
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Jun 27, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
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Meh, personally it's something I don't do- bolting near cracks- but I respect the FA. BTW, Weschrist has a good point in general in the ethical FA-has-bolt-authority-discussion. After someone has something wired or knows where hidden holds are, they could see a bolt as unnecessary and remove it, which would be unfair for those onsighting. So it's not really the FA person who should decide these matters, but the FA itself.
Anyway, I do not think that's pertinent here. I've climbed some of the routes in question, I'm fine with carrying gear. I assume the .10 crack near Fly Girls has been restored? I would ask you to not put them on the internet.Let quiet areas be quiet, but it's your choice.
Hey, I'm not sure if you answered your thread title. How did you become a bolt chopper?
Thanks for all the great routes!
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jun 27, 2011 - 03:15pm PT
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How many routes do you think this effort will affect?
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jun 27, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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Wheat Thin on the list?
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jun 27, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
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Not sure who did the FAs, but I was up at Knob Hill for the first time this weekend with my lady. The Supertopo book shows two bolts atop routes A and B (first things you see when you hit the crag). There are no bolts up top (topo shows 2 for anchors), but a good crack for cams (which I used, luckily I had plenty o' gear after leading the crack). I saw some n00bs who didn't top-rope these because the bolts were missing.
I only mention this to be devil's advocate... bolt removal might create some minor epics for folks who didn't get the memo! But we all climb at our own risk :)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 27, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
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nutjob has a good point - whether adding bolts to or removing them from existing routes, it's very important to ensure that climbers are informed as to what you're doing, and why, and can offer feedback.
Roger Brown and associates specialize in restoring existing routes, mainly by replacing anchors. Another angle of these sorts of activities, which requires research into the history of each route, what anchors were originally placed, and what (if any) have become necessary due to environmental change, or accepted by community consensus. A nice, minimalist approach.
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Jun 28, 2011 - 12:45am PT
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. . . .cookie monster
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 28, 2011 - 02:17am PT
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I'm not sure how much difference it makes either way but since their Dan's routes, I defer to his judgment.
Personally sanitation wall and chapel wall have basically been established just sport climb walls, and having know which particular cams are required for a sport climb is a mixed blessing. Then you really have to know some beta, instead of just jumping on some hard 11 or easy 12 clip up.
It seems though the community likes the idea so rock 'n roll Dan!
Peace
Karl
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jun 28, 2011 - 03:18am PT
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What is your business here.....let me see your passport.........hmmmmmm.....your papers are not in order.......what is your name in Germany...........you lie.......
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mctwisted
Social climber
superslacker city
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Jun 28, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
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nutjob, i think the anchor you are talking about at knob hill i may have put in years ago. however i will not be removing any anchors, only changing them out to stainless. for example recently the afterburner anchor at sanitation (which was total chos was redone. karl all of the affected routes are 5.10s that are now mixed routes, any weird pro areas of these routes still have bolts, but any obvious cam placements have had the bolts removed. a single rack of cams and a few nits protects these climbs easily) all affected routes are steep and you can see anchor, all remaining bolts and what size the crack is from the base. my priorities are still to work on anchors for all my routes and any nearby that may need repair, so everywhere i climb i have the kit and breaker bar. however i will not be removing bolts that others have placed. i will not be removing bolts from routes that are multi pitch, like the great escape, i have my hands full just doing the short routes.
why did i become a bolt chopper?
something weird happens when you have a kid. your thinking process changes and you try to set a better example to others (especially the youth)
and it is more fun doing mixed routes with gear!
also i should add that these routes are now more protectable than ever and actually less sporty as you dont have to run it out to a bolt, but you can place a couple pieces in that distance if you like.
if you get up to a spot where there is a bolt and your wondering why i didnt pull it, since its next to a crack, check the solidity of the location by tapping on the rock with one of your carabiners to see if the rock is hollow, i will be leaving bolts where there is any question of saftey, that has always been my first priority!
if i decide to remove something like the last bolt of poker face, which was added after my brother inlaw took a 40' meatgrinderslider i will post this type of info as i dont want put anyone in that type of surprise situation on the sharp end
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 28, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
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I respect your decisions Dan, because you've always put up routes with good experiences for your fellow climbers in mind as you've done so.
thank you
Karl for
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Jun 28, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
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Dan,
your logic is sound and your methods spot on. I would do SS glue in anchors for ultimate long term beef..
kurt
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 28, 2011 - 03:58pm PT
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Rox wrote
Continue undoing the damage you have done. Its a good way to show contrition. But don't think it absolves you of the original guilt of what you have done. Perhaps you can go and give anti bolting lectures as community service.
Refuse to have your name associated with them routes, burn your notes to your latest attempt at a "guide book", renounce your pride and admit you are nobody special.
Then I think you may eventually learn humility and your proper place in the world.
You ain't all that.
Rox, if you don't have detailed knowledge of Dan's routes, you should consider backing off the keyboard. I don't think he deserves anything you've written and I've known him for decades.
I believe his routes have been positive contributions, both in their original form, and however he might choose to improve them.
and I've enjoyed his routes for decades
peace
Karl
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jun 28, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
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Reminds me of a story about a certain chicken;...everyone wants to CLIMB the routes, but nobody wants to install/maintain the bolts, pay for the bolts, find the routes, name the routes, and figure out where the fixed stuff goes;...oftentimes on the lead............but everyone is still an expert on where and how this stuff is to be done.......very interesting. Dan;...thanks for all the hard work you do putting up these new routes for all to enjoy;...in the way you feel is best......thank you..........Everyone else;....feel free to put your own routes up in the way you wish........we still have these freedoms at many of our crags.....amen....
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 28, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
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My view is minority on this one, but once bolts have been placed, leave 'em in. Suppose a low income climber who can't afford expensive camming devices wants to do the route? So let him protect it with the bolts, and let those who have the pro gear pass the bolts up.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 28, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
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Suppose a low income climber who can't afford expensive camming devices wants to do the route? So let him protect it with the bolts, and let those who have the pro gear pass the bolts up.
Hard to express the so many ways this sentiment is diametrically opposed to everything I think about regarding climbing.
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
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Jun 28, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
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What got the chop on the Tioga Cliff?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 28, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
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Good work.
As you can see there are some very miserable people who post here. As we know misery loves company; so just ignore them.
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James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
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Jun 28, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
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Good for you Dan. It's cool to see you out at the crag all the time.
James
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lucho
Trad climber
California
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Jun 28, 2011 - 07:16pm PT
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All I can say is Dan is the Man! Im thankful there are still some of the oldschoolers around to hang and be an inspiration to the youth. Thanks Dan!
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 28, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
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Hi Ron,
Thank you for your sincere reply. I agree that standards are needed, but my point was, once a stray bolt is in here and there on a route, better to leave 'em in, even if the bolt didn't belong there in the first place.
If it is vital to a person's values to do it as a traditional climb, do it but if a person wants to do it as a bolted sport climb, let 'em and leave 'em alone!! There was a time where I couldn't afford gear, and I was grateful for bolts.
The route belongs to the 1st acensionist, but the rock doesn't.
I am a political libertarian and it extends to climbing for me.
I remember when Royal Robbins went up to chop on Wall of Early Morning, then he decided he had better ways to spend his time, I respect him so much for being honest about it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 28, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
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If it is vital to a person's values to do it as a traditional climb, do it but if a person wants to do it as a bolted sport climb, let 'em and leave 'em alone!!
Again, couldn't disagree more - the "just don't clip'em" meme is so weak as to be bankrupt.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Jun 28, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
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Rox- pretty sure most of us posting here have never published a guide book. in fact if this post bugs you so much, i suggest you turn off your computer and go climb.
Coz is right - putting up FA is fun, that is why i do it..
Todd is right as well.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jun 28, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
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Thanks for the heads up McD. Might be nice to put the info on the Mtn Proj descriptions for the routes, since we've been waiting for a new/updated Valley guide for many, many, many, many years and it would suck to show up with a rack of draws and find the bolts gone.
As for the other blah blah blah on here, who cares what a bunch of armchair wankers think. 98% of you don't even climb off the sofa.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jun 28, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
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Dan,
Any chance you can post some names of the affected routes here?
Thanks!
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 28, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
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rox
"Abuses to the priveledge of climbing"
Hogwash!
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Pass the Chongo, Chongo
Social climber
love, trust, and T*Rs nuts!
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Jun 28, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
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HEY ROXJOX:
GO F*#K YOUR SELF,,, YOU ARE NOTHING BUT AN EGO DRIVEN F*#K HEAD,,, YOU F*#KING DIP SH#T,,, F*#K YOU AND YOURE WOLVES YOU F*#KING CUNT<<<!!!!!
MCDIVETT:
KEEP IT UP,,, EVERYONE LOVES YOUR ROUTES,,, BOLTS OR NOT,,, THEY ARE FINE, WELL THOUGHT OUT ROUTES, THAT ARE A GREAT ADDITION TO THE VALLEY,,,
THANKS!!!!!!!!!
-PTCc
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 28, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
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You're just off-base on this thread Rox
Dan has climbed many new notable walls, not to mention countless crag routes in Yosemite without publishing or announcing squat about it!
Your sounding like a guy about the carnivorous excesses of white-tailed deer
Dan is giving the community a heads up on his plans. Great! I'm not a particular advocate of these new steps but I think he's doing it the right way. Kudos
Peace
Karl
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jun 28, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
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FACT: Roxy found a job as one of those paid agitators for the GOP.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jun 29, 2011 - 01:15am PT
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I didn't see this unwarranted sh#t storm coming, but wanted to thank Dan for everything, including doing the right thing as he sees it.
BTW, still looking for one of your hammers....I've got cash:-)
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:16am PT
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BTW, still looking for one of your hammers....I've got cash:-)
Ditto! I will add a $twenty$ to any of Couchmasters offers....:O
Dude has all the good Hammers!
Maybe we call upon T Moses to whip up a batch?
Thanks for the word Dan, good on you.
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