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Karmakanix
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 20, 2011 - 02:04am PT
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Simul Rap or Simul Rappel.
We have been spotted and queried about simul rapping so many times that I thought I should post what I know. Here goes…………..
Most of the information one can find on simul rappelling is jaded. Most people are against the idea. What it comes down to is that just as one person cannot screw up while rappelling, neither climber can screw up on a simul rap. My partner and I have almost 4 years of simul rapping experience. We probably average a vertical mile per year of simul rapping. It cuts down rap time by about 45%. On multi pitch climbs, we deem it necessary. But you have to have a good partner who literally won’t let you down. It also gets both climbers looking for the next set of rap anchors, really important at night. Simul rapping is not for beginners, and even experts should know each other well, as trust is implicit. If you think the other guy might just freak out under pressure, solo rap. Don’t ever goad or chide someone into simul rapping. The most important thing about simul rapping is to know when NOT to do it.
Rules:
Use only bombproof anchors. Period. If you rap off a leaver sling, then leave TWO!! If the tat is already there, check it carefully, all of it, then back it up. Never trust bleached tat. Some wall rats have more than two legs. Remember that you can’t check that the ropes will pull down for sure until both of you are at the bottom. If you are rapping off slings on a knob, put 2 biners on the two slings if you think there is any chance that the rope might not pull after you are down. I buy $3 biners on sale just to leave them if necessary. I have only ever left one pair. When climbing long unfamiliar adventure routes, I always carry up to 6 lengths of 5/8” webbing as leaver slings, plus a pair or more of OmPac rap rings. If there is any chance an anchor could fail, like a chicken head or a thread, back it up big-time, have the fat guy rap first, jerk test it from the ground, then remove the backup piece, and the skinny guy raps. Know when NOT to simul rap. More about bail rings and leaver biners later.
Both climbers inspect their own AND each other’s gear and setup, as well as the rap anchor. I carry a short double box end wrench to tighten bolts. You would be surprised how many bolts are loose, like, most of them. Both climbers need to inspect the knot as well. Make sure the knot is well dressed with lots of tail. It is going to carry double the weight. This thread is not about knots, but never use a figure eight knot tied EDK style.
Use an autoblock knot with a locking biner on the brake hand side!! It will save both of you if one goes out of control. Put the autoblock on a leg loop, and use a double horsetail to extend the rap device above your harness about 6-10 inches. This keeps your autoblock from jamming into the rap device if you lift your leg, which would drop you. Some climbers hook the autoblock to the belay loop of the harness. I find that causes the autoblock to press against the horsetail, jamming my brake hand. Connecting the autoblock to the leg loop allows my hand to be in the normal brake position effortlessly. I normally rap larger ropes with my GriGri, which bypasses this problem. Always rap with an autoblock if using an ATC. I believe some fatal simul rap experiences may have occurred because one guy unweighted, dropped the other guy, who let go of the rope to grab some impossible hold, then just continued to drop out of control. I also believe many solo rap fatalities may have been caused by a lack of an autoblock, but there is never anyone to ask, it is usually just assumed that the climber simply rapped off the end of the rope. I have never read in any ANAM that the fallen rappeller had an autoblock. Each climber has to be safe for two people.
BOTH climbers ALWAYS remain tied into the anchor until you test your system by weighting it simultaneously. Make sure your autoblock works and does not slip, but will move when you need it to move. Make sure your Gri is not upside down. The time to check all this is BEFORE you unclip from the anchor. Each different diameter rope will be gripped differently by the autoblock. And a single rope will require more wraps than two ropes. We usually carry a 7.8mm Monster rope for rapping, tagging and hauling. Takes a bit of experience to get used to the spaghetti diameter, and a GriGri will NOT work on this. The BD ATC guide is rated for these small diameters and works fine, but the corresponding autoblock cord must be 5.5 or 5mm, 6mm will not grab!!!
Both climbers have to weight the rope simultaneously. Pick one guy to say “ready?”, then count to three, and on three, both climbers weight the rope. Same goes for the end of rap, if one climber arrives first, he MUST remain suspended until the other gets down. At the bottom, one guy says the “ready?” question, then counts to three, unweighting on three. It is important that the same guy who says “ready?” also does the countdown. You must have established communication patterns that never vary.
I don't always knot the end of the rope. If I am climbing on familiar single pitch rock and I know for sure the rope reaches the ground with plenty to spare, I rarely tie a knot. If I am out with beginners, I always tie a knot, but I usually will not simul rap with them. I often holster (stack) the rope if I feel there is any chance of it getting caught in trees, cracks or knob fields. Or if there is a crowd at the crags. I just butterfly it over a sling clipped between me and the anchor, then reclip the anchor end of the sling to myself. You just let the cord pay out as you descend. Do it right and it feeds out just fine. Simul rap and each guy carries one holster. I got the idea from an Argentinian guy who said they rap with the rope in their jackets cuz of the 50 mph crosswinds where they regularly climb. ALWAYS tie a knot when you holster the rope.
If rapping through loose choss, either stay close together so any dislodged rocks won’t gain much speed, or have one climber rap to a safe position before the other goes through. The reasons for helmets and autoblocks are obvious. If the rock condition is extremely loose, solo rap. Know when NOT to simul rap.
Use good judgment about rope pulling issues. There have been a number of times when I will stop at the first rap station, my partner will go on to the second, we tie in and then unweight simultaneously. Then I pull rope to be sure it will get past all the obstacles, and rap again. A certain rap pitch on the Arches comes to mind.
I have read about tying the two climbers together. But if either one looses it, you are both going to fall, unless you are double rope rapping through rings and the knot catches, which means the correct guy has to fall first. Being tied together presents more problems than it cures. Jerking each other around, the tie getting caught in a rap device, flipping your partner over, catching on knobs, etc…. We never tie together. But if I needed to simul rap with a beginner, I would rap through rings, use a backed up fattie double fisherman instead of my normal EDK, take the rope that was protected by the knot jammed in the rings for myself, and tie in to the other climber. That way if the beginner lost control, we would suddenly be spider rapping on a single rope. I would also back up my Gri with an autoblock. But if it was a total freaked out noob, I would double rope spider rap. Know when NOT to simul rap.
The best part:
There is the situation where both climbers reach the end of rope, and hopefully knots, but neither one is down. Oooopps. Always carry enough slings to jug back up, and an ATC with an autoblock, or a GriGri, is part of that system. But if you are rapping through rings or leaver biners, NOT SLINGS, there is an escape available that a solo rapper would not be able to do. One climber can climb up, lowering the other one down. If on a double rope rappel, obviously the guy on the knotted side must go down, and the top guy must clip to the lowered guy’s rope, cuz he has to have that rope to pull later. One goes up, the other goes down. Then the top guy can set an anchor or the bottom guy can top rope him up to an anchor, the top guy can then pull rope and rap again. If you see the situation coming, one guy can stop and tie in at an anchor, clip the other rope and lower the other climber. If free hanging, the top guy can jug the rope until he reaches an anchor point, tie in, and he is already set up to lower the bottom guy safely. Tie in short every 15-20 feet while jugging. All normal precautions about top roping apply: deal with any sharp edges, and NEVER lower with a rope through a sling. Beat that, Batman!~
Read Craig Leubben’s treatise on simil rapping:
http://books.google.com/books?id=MTICpwEmI98C&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=simul+rappel&source=bl&ots=hTt7yMpryD&sig=ayTIQQQIYpWpD7mYO9K5dfKQPus&hl=en&ei=Mv7TTaqOHaPZiAKixuWlBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&sqi=2&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=simul%20rappel&f=false
Thanx
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 20, 2011 - 05:22am PT
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Can you give me an example of when you have simulrapped at night and it was "really important" for finding the next anchor? I.e. you don't think the first person would have found it.
On what routes are you doing this 5000' of simulrapping per year? Royal Arches rappel route?
You state it cuts down time by about 45%. Can you share your data on times which you used to calculate this?
Can you state your time on the Royal Arches rappel route by simulrapping, and by "solo" (sequential) rapping?
(or supply another example if you don't have a time for this route)
Several of your comments on techniques not specific to simulrapping (such as stacking the rope in a sling to prevent hangup below you) were good.
I also liked you coverage of "know when NOT to simulrap".
Finally, here is a puzzle for you. Say you have a team of 3 rapping a route with rings/chains. Would you:
1. send one person down "solo" first, then 2 people simul.
2. send two people down simul first, then one person "solo".
3. bring a 3rd rope, so that all 3 could rap "simul".
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 20, 2011 - 08:25am PT
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Sorry but I don't buy it.One person can rap a pitch in the time it takes to add that extra sling or tighten some bolts.You are carrying three dollar biners and extra webbing to do this?
Both people arranging autoblocks takes time,when one would suffice with a firemen's for normal raps.What happens at an anchor where someone is already at the stance?
I've seen so many people playing at fast climbing these last ten years,who don't even begin to have their sh#t dialed.People who are saving seven grams on slings you can't knot,and wear out faster,I presume so they can lug five locking biners and two belay devices,'cause that's what I see. Not saying this applies to the OP, just an observation.
Just stopping for some reason,at a ledge, maybe to sort some snarl,or pick the line out of a bush is complicated greatly by simuling.No one can unweight the lines.Twice the load on the anchors.No test pull as the OP mentions.
Better to have regular rappels dialed,and a sense of teamwork.Thread the pull line,get a clip in ready for #2.
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Karmakanix
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2011 - 08:40am PT
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Clint,
Happy to: We have simuled off that glorious chosspile of the Valley, Washington Column. Been up there twice trying to find the Great Chimney on the Direct Route. Bivied on Helper Monkey Ledge the first time, ignorantly believing some other ST wall rats who declared it "OK bivy for two", then left their cheesy wine bottle and empty can of food. Mucci left his Parducci. The second time up we were rapping skipping anchors cuz we had two ropes and mo' o less knew the layout. The last rap pitch goes through a lotta filth and we spread out a bit, buddy found the last anchor on one of the few patches of bald rock, I had missed it in the dark. This thread now becomes a forlorn plea for beta about how to get from Lunch Ledge to the Great Chimney. WTF Fat Man Chimney? Roper sez: go left. Mucci sez: go up. WTF?? Whadever, it was lotsa fun.
As to the 5000 ft, I said "we probably average a vertical mile per year." That is a total guesstimate based on the ideal that we get out about 35-45 days worth on a good year, climb 600-1600 feet per day, and rap about half of the climbs we do. So 30 days in a bad year times 600 feet on a shitty day is 18,000 feet. Divided by 3 is still over a mile. I was being Cherokee conservative at a mile.
The 45% thing is just to incorporate the butt scratching time. I figured that if I said 50%, someone would tweet out something to slow us down. My partner carries a watch and records everything, but I live off Indian Time and always carry a headlamp. I am never trying to set records, I just try to be efficient and always come back with my ass above my ankles. Epic, schmepic, I don't feel like I got a good day unless my headlamp is on when I get back.
We climb at Shuteye Ridge a lot. Afternoon Nap on the Big Sleep is 1000 ft. Done Walk on the Wild Side and Right On on Saddle Rock at J Tree. Gotta be 1000 feet between them, a solid day. Found one anchor bolt at the summit lifted out of the rock 1/2" until I stomped on it and tightened it with my weinie wrench. Had to do the stop half way thing while partner finished in order to avoid a rope snag. Simul rapped off pitch 7 of the Arches in a surprise southern sh#t storm. Jeez, we just like to rap, saves bringing approach shoes and generally takes less time than a walk off. Can't tell you how many times we have rapped Discovery Wall at Pinnacles. Easy way to set up a Tr. I love Bye Bye Fly By, but I don't want to roll up my gonads and lead that 5.9RRRRRRRRRRRRR. We just rap a lot and think nothing about simul rapping, cuz we have it dialed.
As to the puzzle: Usually when we have a group of three, one is a beginner. Safety is more important than time. Usually one pro goes solo, fireman's the noob, then the other pro slides down. The one weekend I can think of when we did multi pitch with three pros is when a local rope rocket lead Serenity Crack for us. He soloed down first cuz he had the rap stations dialed. We simuled after him. Guess we did the Grack the same way. And Y Crack. Options 1 and 2 are kinda like counting eggs in a carton. But if the two guys simuled first, you have the four eyes looking for an anchor and they would have the seesaw option if the pitch turned out to be more than a rope length. If the pair had to seesaw, the third could bring the ropes back to halfway, then rap to where the top guy stopped. Then simul the last pitch with him.
I don't understand the third option, bringing a third rope. If it takes two rope for two guys, wouldn't it take two more ropes for the third? Else how would you pull the third rope?
Stzzo: Horsetail is also called a cow's tail, and is an extension. Use two single slings doubled. Or use a double, but tie an overhand for redundancy. Yeah, clipping the belay loop with an autoblock is ugly.
Yup, you are both gonna fall if either looses it on a single rope. Know when NOT to simul rap. On a double rope through rap rings, the experienced guy takes the side that is protected by the knot jamming the rings and ties to the noob, then nobody dies if the noob screws up. But there is going to be a lot of panic and racket followed by bruises and swearing. I normally use an EDK, well dressed and with 1 foot tails, but I wrote that one would use a fat double fisherman with a backup for such an occasion. None of this applies if you are rapping off of natural pro.
You're still going to fall rapping solo if you loose it. I don't think anybody can stop a screaming rope on body weight without burning railroad tracks in their brake hand. Wish someone made a Gri type device for two ropes. I tried for a while, then gave up.
I was taught to rap when Mickey and Minnie were kids. We used a Goofy prussic above the Daffy figure eight as a backup. Many things became obvious: If you locked up the prussic, you had to unweight it to unlock it, which could be a project. If the rope slipped through the rap device, there was no way the prussic had time to lock up before the rope went through it too. An autoblock on the brake side required far less rope grab to stop you than a prussic above you. Always use an autoblock. Remember what Papa Murphy taught you: Sh#t Happens.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 20, 2011 - 11:28am PT
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Problem for me is, ahem, folks forget.
Had a friend forget that another friend was simul rapping. He got off the rope prior to her really setting her weight on it. Ramp start to steep pourover. He didn't feel her weight and forgot they'd talked about simul rappelling. Unclipped and walked away. She was chatting with someone at the anchor. Leaned back...whoosh. The guy at the anchor managed to jam his hand onto the rope as it was whizzing through the anchor, slowing her rate of descent down but burning his hands fairly badly. Saved her arse.
So, fast forward to recently. I'm on an anchor, rappelling against a knot block on a Gri Gri. My partner wants to rap down, and, rigs his rope to do so. I suggest he just go off the other side of the rope since I outweigh him by a fair amount. Well...guess who forgets? I decide, since I'm on a Gri Gri, to climb up a bit...he drops a couple feet and launches a draw he's re-clipping to his harness into space. We're up a fair ways. I kinda laughed it off...but...yikes.
Makes me think I don't need to simul rappel much.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 20, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
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An excellent description of all the procedures and precautions. Even so, note that the Craig Luebben reference characterizes simul rapping as "super dangerous."
I do think it is faster. A few years ago I was rapping in the conventional way just after a party that was simul-rapping. We were totally efficient in what we did, but after a few raps, the simul party was out of sight below (and no, they hadn't rapped off the ends of their lines).
The extra speed has to be balanced against the extra danger. Rapping, as we all know, is already one of the more dangerous things climbers do, since there is very little tolerance for mistakes. Simul-rapping adds additional ways to mess up and on those grounds alone deserves careful consideration before being chosen. The additional complexities and opportunities for error means that simul-rapping unavoidably ups the odds of an accident, and one has to decide that the increased risk, which requires all kinds of increased vigilance, is worth the time savings.
Sometimes the answer is yes, but for me simul-rapping is a special technique for unusual situations rather than an everyday thing. For a few rappels on a relatively small crag? Never. It makes no sense to add any risk when time isn't critical. With beginners? Never. Too many complexities.
On long routes with daylight fading and a fatigued party, one has to try to be clear-headed about whether slowing everything down isn't actually the best idea, once you know you're coming home by headlamp light anyway. If weather is moving in, if the possibility of avoiding a descent in the dark has real advantages, or if there is some other pressing reason to hurry, then simul-rapping might well be the best option.
When you've been climbing as long as I have (54 years), one of the things you learn is that sooner or later, all your experience notwithstanding, you can still make the kind of basic mistakes one thinks of as noob errors. Sadly, climbing accident reports are full of examples of this. Of course experienced climbers are not supposed to make basic errors, climbing well is all about controlling the risks. But it can happen anyway, and your best hope is that either you are lucky, which we often are, or else you have enough redundancy in your practices to make single errors less critical.
From this perspective, making a regular practice of something with increased screw-up potential just doesn't seem like a good bet to me, but everyone makes their own choices in this business and then lives with the consequences.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 20, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
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Finally, here is a puzzle for you. Say you have a team of 3 rapping a route with rings/chains. Would you:
1. send one person down "solo" first, then 2 people simul.
2. send two people down simul first, then one person "solo".
3. bring a 3rd rope, so that all 3 could rap "simul".
4. Simulrap, but two people are on one of the lines, just like rapping with a pig (OK I've rapped with a pig, but I think there is some way to do it).
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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May 20, 2011 - 12:24pm PT
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I ain't gonna do it unless it is a dire need situation.
To make that sort of thing standard practice? Not on my watch.
I have a good friend who was a guide for many years and swears by the EDK, but with me he respectfully avoids it, because of my own sense of what's right and my mental comfort.
But what do I know, I've only been climbing 36 years, and only have a hundred or so walls under my belt.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 20, 2011 - 12:33pm PT
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i have only done it in the needles of south dakota where there werenot too many other viable options. tricouni nail..
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 20, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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On descents off formations with no fixed anchors or any anchors at the top, I've rappelled off against a partner's weight before, but, I don't like the simul thing. I want them on the ground with me locked off, then I go.
Have done that a number of times. Works great. As long as the rope doesn't roll off... Yikes!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 20, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
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Often when you're in a hurry while rappelling, it's time to slow down.
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Danholio
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 20, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
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hey karma - did i meet you at sugarloaf a couple of weeks ago? you and your climbing partner simul rapped dominion in awesome form and i asked you about it. at any rate, thanks for the tips. i've always wanted to simul rapping and now i have some tips to work with.
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Karmakanix
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2011 - 11:31pm PT
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Addressing option 4: Not be a good option to rap with two people on one cord and one on the other. If you HAD to, then be sure it is a double rope rap and the duo is protected by the fatty knot through the rap rings. But it would seem very sketchy to have double the weight on one side. Triple the load on the anchor too. Recipe for a final ride.
Understand that this was not posted in an effort to convince others to simul rap. In fact I stress multiple times about knowing when NOT to simul rap. Very little info exists on this topic, and the point was to give pointers for anyone who had already decided to try so some measure of safety could be gleaned from my experience. I have been asked about our technique at least a dozen times.
I appreciate the constructive comments.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Back in the Gunks for the winter
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May 21, 2011 - 12:52am PT
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I have done a bit of counterbalance rappelling (Needles SD) instead of having to simul, since going of some of the towers means that you are going off opposite sides of the tower and are unable to see/communicate ideally. I like having my partner on the ground so I can confirm that they are set and ready before I employ them as my anchor.
In a simul rap scenario, one thought I had, in regard to making sure that one person does not go zinging up (and the other subsequently down) is that after unclipping from the anchor, (the lighter person would unclip first if there is a weight disparity) your daisy/PAS, etc would get clipped into your partner, ensuring that you would stay relatively close to eachother.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 21, 2011 - 01:25am PT
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Some good info.
Mucci left his Parducci
Retrieved that bottle that my partner left unkown to me in spring of 09, 3rd time up the route.
The fact that you were unable to summit after multiple tries on that route, with a topo, leads me to believe you have no business offering advice on how to speed up rappels.
Many people have used my topo to aid them in a general direction up on the direct route. You are obviously not capable of finishing a moderate route with moderate routefinding.
Take your spew about "Afternoon Nap" and WOTWS and shove it.
Sounds like you just broke into the 5.7's, good luck with that simul rapping.
Mucci
Edited a few choice words...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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May 21, 2011 - 02:48am PT
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I am always amazed at people who want to take a simple idea and make it complex. One of the tricks to staying alive in the sport of climbing is to make thing as simple as possible so you have less chance of screwing up.
One only has to look at the example last year of the death descending Sons/Serenity by two people trying to use two different and complex descending techniques. Keep it simple; stay alive.
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View
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May 21, 2011 - 10:52am PT
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Well said Bruce. Ive climbed long enough to know that while their may
be faster ways to do things, they are often at a compromise. When it comes
to that, I never compromise.
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sibylle
Trad climber
On the road again!
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May 21, 2011 - 11:08am PT
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In 2006, we (Dave Goldstein and I) simul-rapped Time Wave Zero in Portrero Chico, which is a 23-pitch sport climb with bolted anchors spaced at 100-foot intervals. The anchors were fairly new, and good - we inspected them on the way up. We previously practiced simul-rapping together on other multi-pitch climbs at Portrero chico.
However, I did not repeat the climb and rappel it again by a different method to compare times! :-) Nor do I know the time it took, as both Dave's and my watches ironically broke and neither of us had a working watch on the route.
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Johnny K.
climber
Southern,California
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May 21, 2011 - 11:57am PT
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As stated above,why try to make things complicated?
Simul rap is strictly based on the trust of the knowledge/technique of your partner.The method is quite simple actually,you trust your partner belaying you?
Climbers weight both strands before the rappel,and they keep the rope weighted on each strand until both are on the ground/ledge.The rope has to be weighted the whole time while rappeling.There is nothing more to it.
It is about trusting your partner and being efficient.Autoblock,back up hitches,personal anchors etc etc will do nothing to help someone who doesnt know how to simul rap,and in the end make things more complicated and longer to setup the rappel,this negates the whole reason why you simul rap in the first place.There is no race to the ground.Be safe.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 21, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
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I think I made it clear that I'm not a fan of simul rapping as any kind of regular procedure. But the fact that the OP gave a very detailed description of the relevant processes and concerns does not mean that he has added massive amounts of extra complication.
He simply makes explicit the kinds of checks almost any experienced party would do, and many if not most of these checks are the same ones folks typically do for ordinary rappels. Really, the rap backups and the end knots are the only thing that one might argue about, and those topics are the subject of analogous debates for ordinary raps.
Whatever one thinks of those back-up practices in general, neither of them takes more than a few seconds and so neither can be viewed as a time drain. Personally, I rarely use a rap backup prussik or bottom stopper knots for ordinary rappels, but would use both for simul raps if I felt obliged to do them, because the screw-up potential is much higher.
As for Sybille's comment, based on what I've seen, I'd guess that simul rapping probably makes a significant time difference on something like TWZ.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 21, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
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Here, Karmakanix: info on the Direct route. From Lunch Ledge, you have the option---not mentioned by Roper--- of doing his Fat Man Chimney on the left or going right and up to the much cleaner and somewhat harder 5.8 Charlie Brown Chimney (named after Charley "Brown" Artman. I recommend this alternate. Also in Fat Man Chimney you will these days find a bolt or two, apparently placed in the eighties or early nineties. The "friction step" pitch just below the Great Chimney takes off from a very huge pine or fir and would go very inobviously right and up with iffy protection for a move or two. The alternate here is to do the obvious open book more or less straight up from you and left of this "step". This alternate is probably still only 5.7 although it looks harder. When in the Great Chimney first pitch, make sure and feel free to traverse back and forth in there and not get all tunnel-visioned out and force your way straight up---considerably dumber and harder than to follow the weakness of the feature in a less direct manner. At the very top of the climb, there are several ways of exiting. There is a trick way though that involves using the rightmost "gulley" and exiting it off left only part way up. It is nebulous here.
Washington Column-Lunch Ledge pI. 10
II, 5.6. This nondescript climb, the first technical
route done in the Valley, was done in September
1933 by Hervey Voge, Richard Leonard, Jules
Eichorn and Bestor Robinson. Although it was once
the most frequented route in the Valley, its popularity
has waned in recent years owing to the discovery
of more enjoyable routes. Most climbers now regard
the Ledge as simply a belay spot on the Direct Route.
From the vicinity of Camp 9 walk up to the base
of slabs several hundred feet left of the demarcation
line between the Arches and the Column. Ascend
diagonally (class 3) to sloping ledges in the demarcation
line, perhaps 200 feet above the ground. Rope
up and descend class 4 rock about 20 feet, then traverse
upward and right to a broad ledge. Climb straight
up for 60 feet, then work up and right to a forked
tree. About 25 feet higher, step right around a bulge
and wander up step-like ledges to a large pine and a
cairn overlooking an 800-foot dropoff.
Work up class 4 cracks and chimneys for 175 feet
to a belay ledge, then traverse left on a three-footwide
ledge for 25 feet to a vertical crack-the
Reigelhuth Chimney. In reality the "chimney" is a
jamcrack, awkward (5.6) at the bottom and easier
higher. The 90-foot pitch ends on the disappointing
Lunch Ledge. Rappel from here or continue via one
of the following two routes. Hardware: 6 pitons, up
Washington Column-
Direct Route pI. 10, pg. 144
III, 5.7. First ascent in August 1940 by John Dyer,
Robin Hansen and DeWitt Allen. Although not
terribly enjoyable or aesthetic, this route is probably
done by most climbers who stay in the Valley for any
length of time. The route begins from Lunch Ledge;
many parties have gotten lost on the first pitch.
Above Lunch Ledge don't climb the large left-facing
open book (easy at the start), but climb an inconspicuous
crack system 25 feet to the left. This system
soon turns into a decomposed, tricky 5.7 slot-the
notorious Fat Man Chimney. About 140 feet above
Lunch Ledge, traverse down and right to a good belay
ledge by a tree. Next, move up and right over a
difficult friction step to a sandy slope below the
forbidding Great Chimney. A strenuous pitch in this
chimney (5.6) leads to a belay on chockstones.
Another pitch leads to the top of the chimney, where
it is possible to traverse up and left into a narrow,
rotten chimney. A short distance higher pass through
a tunnel which leads into a class 2 forest. Routefinding
becomes complicated beyond here-there are
several routes of similar difficulty. A 5.7 route can be
worked out near the left side of the last 300-foot
wall. Above this, exit onto brush slopes and the
summit. Hardware: 10 pitons, up to 1V2".
An early variation was made to this route in 1934
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
Arkansas, I suppose
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May 21, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
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I've simul-rapped the hell out of some routes, and can state that empirical evidence shows it to be pretty freaking fast.
Way faster than standard wait-til-the-first-guy-is down stuff.
edited for grammar
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Karmakanix
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2011 - 03:38am PT
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Peter: I really appreciate the post of post Lunch Ledge beta. And the chimney advice. FYI, I am good friends with Les, who taught me lead climbing last century in his own humble way. I know of you as the co-inventor of the famous crack jacks that you two used to protect the Hourglass Flake west of El Cap. I have Steve's book, but your post gives me the printout on my phone, which could be very useful. I climb with Steve and Allen at BIW and have been meaning to pick some brains on this one. I am also the one who went sailing in Greece with AS, LW and GB. Thanks for being on my side.
Mucci: Please excuse me if it seems I have accused you falsely. I just know that the Parducci was there when we bivvied on Helper Monkey, and when we rapped, we did not go past to retrieve it. The next time up, we saw that it was gone. I commend and respect you for going back up and removing it. Said partner was the culprit, and Mother Nature was the victim.
As to my climbing abilities, it is no secret that I cannot yard as hard as I used to, and I am not here posting to spout or tout. You are likely a more burly climber than I ever was. And judging from your pictures on your posting, I have surely been climbing much longer than you have been alive. I climb for the joy of it. And I post to both share and learn. Peace.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 22, 2011 - 10:14am PT
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I suppose simul rapping is o.k. for experienced climbers out with trusted partners. I still don't see the point. If things are going sideways doing something different while rapping is the last thing one should do. If things are not going south, why the need for the incremental increase in speed? It more than doubles the load on the anchor and adds at least one more way to have a fatal failure.
I say rap however you want. But, we've had a few threads saying simul rapping should be the norm and is no big deal, which is just incorrect and is a disservice for newer climbers getting their mentoring on the intardnet.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 22, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
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Karma-
I apologize for my comments directed toward your OP. I thought it odd my name was dropped so many times in a thread entitled sumulrapping. I was a little fired up and should have held my virtual tongue.
That bottle left behind really bothered me, and provided a reason to revisit that great route.
Cheers,
Mucci
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Al_T.Tude
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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As Karma's partner in crime, I can attest that his OP is intended to shed light on a rarely published, occasionally discussed technique that is in the forefront of his and my quiver. Most all of the issues brought up in the numerous responses reinforce points that he made in his OP.
rgold adds some useful perspective and he and Johnny K. point out that simul-rapping is just as simple as the more popular sequential rapping proceedure.
It appears to me that the posters who have significant experience with the technique give very positive reviews. Those who have chosen to expend effort to post negative comments seem to have little or no experience with it.
As Karma said, it's not for everyone. If you lack experience, or an experienced, simpatico partner, or it just gives you the willies and you wouldn't rap well or enjoy the experience as a result, simply take the extra time to rap sequentially and click on a different thread. That's an excellent way to save time.
Sure, you can die by simul-rapping poorly, just as you can die from climbing poorly. One aspect of climbing that appeals greatly to me is that it often has to be done well to be done at all. In this world in which mediocrity is celebrated, it is not often that we encounter such a primal activity.
This is my personal choice. I never encourage anyone to simul-rap, nor do I encourage them to lead trad or solo. It's very easy to get seriously injured or die while engaging in any of these pursuits.
Simul-rapping is just one of the many climbing practices that I utilize to maximize my potential as a climbing human. Hans Florine's speed climbing book is full of ways to die...or become alive.
Some respond to such texts with fear, others with detached curiosity and some use them as templates for their lives. All responses are allowed. Choose your own and live it.
If a beginning climber reads the OP, they should determine quite quickly that this technique is not for them at this time. However, all knowledge can be misused. None the less, that does not stop us humans from teaching and learning. If you do not believe in this, why are you participating in something called a "forum"?
Karma posted to educate and encourage a forum among those who wish to learn and teach about the technique.
*
From the many dozens of pitches that I have simul-rapped (mostly with Karma) I have learned the following:
AUTOBLOCK
The autoblock (or French Prusik) friction knot is not specifically for simul-rappelling. It is a simple, fast, elegant and extremely effective tool for executing fast, controllable, safe and versatile rappels. I would never rappel in any manner without one in place without a good reason.
It may actually be faster to set up a rap with the autoblock than without as one of the many services that it performs is to maintain slack in the rap line(s) facilitating quick and easy insertion of the line(s) into the rap device. Two decades experience of raising 8 to 15 lbs of rope while simultaneously attempting to insert one or two fat bights of kinked rope into narrow slots is reason enough to use the auto block. That it is so fast to set up (much faster than a standard prusik) and has so many other advantages (including that if you let go of your brake hand due to incapacity for any reason, you don't die) makes it a no brainer for me.
SPEED
Speed is safety. And not just in the high mountains and on big walls. Speed gives you options. It can get you off the wall and down to the Mountain Room Lounge in time for beer call with your mates. It can get you onto level ground before the rain hits or prevent an ugly bivy. It can allow you to do many more pitches in a day (if you're into that sort of thing).
And speed is fun. I don't get paid to climb. I do it for fun. I love visiting thousands of feet of unique places on the earth each climbing day that few get to experience - in both directions. When I backpack, I carry a light pack, travel 30 miles a day through the high Sierra, set a comfortable, minimalist camp for 12 hours and re-enter civilization when my food runs out after 200+ miles of joyful exploration. When I've got a rope and a partner, I climb the 16 pitches of Royal Arches in 7 hours. If the partner is solid at the grade, we simul-climb it in 3 hours. If I'm without rope and partner, I do it in 47 minutes. Each style is different, valid, safe and fun.
Hans Florine's license plate reads,"No Bivys". If you're not into any of this foolishness, that's fine. Rappel sequentially and select a different forum thread.
And yes, simul-rapping is approximately twice as fast as performing the same task sequentially. The math is not difficult. To paraphrase Hans: Both climbers moving at the same time is good. One climber moving while the other is not is bad. Neither climber moving is a cardinal sin. Strive to minimize this time (such as change over at belay stations while multi pitch climbing or rappelling).
SIMUL-RAP ONLY IN EMERGENCIES
This is a bad idea. I've been certified in CPR over 20 times. And I suck at it. Why? Because I only practice it once a year at trainings. If you do not regularly simul-rap, it's the last thing that you want to do when the guacamole hits the fan. Just recently, I broke form with Karma and sequentially rapped just so that I wouldn't forget any subtlety of form or # of autoblock wraps going from the usual single strand 7.8mm to double strands with various diameter ropes. Even rehersing in your head or practicing in the garage is not the same as regular field experience.
EQUALIZING LOAD TO PREVENT ROPE CREEP
This is one of the many things that you can't figure out in your head. You'd think that one would have to be careful to keep the load on both sides fairly equal to prevent yo-yoing your partner. In practice, there is so much friction at the top where the rope changes direction, that you pretty much have to walk up the wall to lower your partner. I usually rap faster than Karma. When I get to the lower station, I clip in and feed the knotted side of the rap set up through the anchor. (And, of course I am "hands free" courtesy of the autoblock.)None of this affects him regardless of how far down the pitch he is. When he's wearing a pack, there's a significant weight differential between us. This has never created any problems.
ANCHOR STRENGTH
If I wasn't comfortable dynamically bouncing 2 people on a rap anchor, I would be very reluctant to trust my life to it solo rapping. If that were the case, I'd be looking for another way down. Rap anchors, whether bolts or slung features, are typically massively robust and redundant. Most of our systems are designed for much greater loads than we ever impart upon them.
Having said that, if I came across a questionable rap anchor and absolutely felt that I could not back it up and had to rap on it, I would most definitely use sequential rap technique.
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Karmakanix
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
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Mucci:
I appreciate the gentleman you really are and hope to run into you when we go back up this fall to sort out that huge chimney. This spring has been the first ever with no Valley Thyme because of persistent inclement weather.
Al:
Thanks for the chime. Looking forward to some Leap with you.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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I've had so many people look at me with incredulous eyes when I tell them I'm comfortable with simul-rapping and will even suggest it when I feel the option is viable.
I was taught by a more experienced partner, and became comfortable with it climbing with that same partner. That same partner has scared my balls off while simul-rapping too. Those times were not fun, and I learned the hard way why simul-rapping can be dangerous. I don't simul-rap with him anymore actually. I don't just simul-rap with anyone actually, and I still find it a useful tool on my belt to be comfortable with.
I still like it when I use it. I usually make it a team consensus kind of thing if it comes up.
And here's the thing...with all the safety and such in line and taken care of, when the situation comes up, it's actually kind of fun!
The one bit that I haven't made a solid decision is...when executing a double rope simul rap (off a bomber anchor of course!) do I use the EDK or the fisherman's?
So far...it depends, but I wonder if it's a 50-50 thing in the community...
2p from the newb, cause that's all I can afford after finally achieving a full set of cams. Woot!
Cheers!
LS
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Al_T.Tude
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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Lady S,
Sounds like you're making appropriate decisions re. who to simul-rap with. It's not for your first day on the rock with a new partner and probably isn't for most experienced teams - not that they're not good climbers; it's just that it takes a certain "head space" that not everyone posesses to do it safely and enjoyably every time.
And yeah, it is also funner to s-r. Karma pointed out that you have more eyes looking for rap anchors (and only one side to scan as your partner checks out the other). Aside from that it's just cool to rap side by side.
I mainly do it for speed reasons (which for me makes it more fun). If pressed, I think Karma would say that his primary motivation is that it's an inherently more fun experience regardless of the speed.
EDK (AKA Flat Overhand Knot) - I'm a big fan. The loads imposed by the dynamic body weight of 2 rappellers is far below it's strength. The rope will break before the knot slips. The big advantage of EDK is two fold:
1) It's easy and fast to untie after loading. In an emergency this can save a life or at least save you from having to pull out your knife.
2) The knot flips away from the rock decreasing the liklihood of it hanging up in a crack, constriction or inflection point.
As Karma notes, do not use a flat figure 8. Under exteme loads (albeit far beyond that incurred while rappelling), this knot can invert and roll it's way off the end of the rope tails.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Cg8homvoU
Craig Luebben recommends the EDK for forming a cordelette which is designed to take lead falls in his excellent anchors manual. Used in this manner the knot is exposed to ~1/3 of the impact. I've used it thusly for many years on my 20' x 5.5mm Spectra cordelette.
EDK With Dissimilar Diameter Ropes - Lots of climbing myths don't hold up to the rigors of the backyard ropes lab. I've often read and heard that the EDK will not hold in ropes of dissimilar diameter. Karma and I often use it on 7.8mm twin/half rap/tag line tied to a 10.2mm single lead rope. We've never seen the knot creep.
To quantify this I tied an 8.5 to a 10.5 with the EDK, tied off one rope and dropped about 2' on a 1' Spectra sling attached to the other. Using a static sling for part of the system puts a massive load on the knot - way beyond fall factor 2 (watch the DMM video to see Spectra slings break http://www.dmmclimbing.com/news.asp?nid=293&ngroup=1);.
I measured the standard 12" tail lengths and then hit the knot with 3, Fall Factor Ginormous loads and then re-measured the tail lengths. Lather, rinse, repeat 5X. After the initial tightening of the knot, the tails lost ~ 2 mm of length per set of 3 impacts. At this rate, it would require 440 falls of massively greater force than the maximum factor 2 fall that lead climbers could theoretically impart on their anchor to go through the 12" tails. In other words, dissimilar diameter ropes tied with the EDK don't slip at all when simul or any other kind of rappelling.
Congrats on your cams aquisition, LS. Climb On!
Karma - Look forward to digging through the snow to find our prunewood stash at The Leap on the 18th!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Since Al_T raised the issue of the EDK with different diameter ropes, it seems relevant to (re?)post the following material:
In principle, the EDK, tied properly, ought to be less likely to roll in two ropes of different diameter. The meaning of "tied properly" is illustrated in the following photo:
Personally, when rapping with two 8.5's, I do not enjoy standing at the anchor watching that bottom bight stretch open (the first step to rolling). So I usually add a back-up overhand as depicted below:
Note that there is a right and wrong strand to use for the backup, regardless of whether or not the two strands are of different diameter. The way to decide is to grasp the two rope strands and pull them apart as they would be when loaded for rappelling. The bight that these opposing strands try to enlarge identifies the strand that should be used for the backup knot.
Since the EDK seems to be more prone to rolling when ropes are wet, even those who eschew such back-ups on dry ropes might find them appropriate if their ropes are soaked.
Please note that the strands in the EDK are too short, having been tied this way so as to fit in the photo frame. The proper length for EDK strands is the length of your forearm.
By the way, when it comes to testing, we are too often presented with slow-pull tests for climbing situations in which the typical load is a shock load. But sometimes, slow-pull tests might be more relevant, and rappelling is, I suspect, one of them. The question is less about whether the EDK will stand up to a big shock load and more about how it will behave under a more moderate load for a long duration.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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We spent part of January climbing in Red Rocks this year. It was so cold that we probably could have ice climbed, had we been so inclined. Inclined we were not, so we spent a lot of time climbing in the Solar Slab area.
We noticed that nearly all of the parties that we saw on the Solar Slab route a. included >2 people, b. involved at least 2 of the party members simul rappeling, and c. involved someone doing some sort of rope rescue at some point.
I don't think I've simul rapped since my first time down the Royal Arches raps when we did it as a party of 4 rescue style (2-people on one device)...oh, yes, we really did. It was pretty wild when the first party of two down the lines went past the anchor.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Thank you Rgold, and yes this is a small bit of a repost, but hey, I like to see pretty pictures of knots (especially life saving ones!) a lot, over and over again in fact!
And actually, that very same picture ended up entirely applicable to a recent situation. A partner and I were doing a double rope rap and we had brought a skinny rope along for the rap. I asked him how HE dealt with the rope diameter difference with the EDK when setting up the rap. What can I say, I was taking the opportunity to see the pretty internet pictures come alive. He turned to me and stated that he 'almost always' uses a double fishermans and tries not to rap off a EDK whenever he can arrange it. So much for seeing internet pics come to life...
Heh, then I suggested simul-rapping and he backed out of that too.
Is it something in my eyes that scares them? heh. Oh well...
Cheers
LS
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Al_T.Tude
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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rgold - Thanks for adding to the discussion.
Using the larger diameter strand to block the EDK from rolling - I don't know which way the EDK was set up in my lab or field testing, but I will do it your way from now on as it doesn't take any extra time.
I've seen a second EDK added behind the first for the squeamish. Your second photo didn't translate to my computer, but your accompanying text makes it clear that you're tying an overhand in only one strand of the tail. I don't have EDK experience in the wet, so maybe it's worth trying this backup if I get caught out.
We slow load the knot every time we rap. After losing close to an inch from the initial knot tightening, the tails were still at 11" following 11 rap pitches down The Arches.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Heh...
that clip at 1:05-1:10ish...Haha!
Somehow, I suspect that in situations of tandem rappelling, I'd end up on 'Top' most of the time...
Hee hee
LS
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Al_T.Tude
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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You go, Lady S. I'm a big fan of dominant women >;~O
bbreeder - I'm guessing that tandem rapping means 2 rappellers clipped into one rap device with both rope strands threaded through it rescue style. We enjoy controlling our own raps independently, but your suggestion is worth trying out. We enjoy experimenting with various techniques even if we don't make them a part of our standard bag of tricks.
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