Why Tojo and Adolph never had a chance (OT)

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Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Original Post - May 16, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
Best 20 bucks I've spent in a while - Planes of Fame airshow at Chino.

Mitsubishi Zero - a nice little plane that didn't pack much of a punch,
didn't offer its pilot any protection, and wasn't that fast. This is the only flyable example.




When these behemoths got into the party Tojo was toast! Burnt toast!




The plane that Jimmy Doolittle used to tell Tojo "you ain't seen nuthin yet!"
B-25




P-40 Warhawks were a pre-war design that didn't do well against the Zero at first.
The Flying Tigers made them famous and did figure out how to fight the Zero.
Just don't get into a turning fight with them and you'll be fine.




The P-47 Thunderbolt and a Focke-Wolfe 190. The FW 190 was better than the
ME 109 but when the 'Bolt appeared the party was over! Way faster, way more
heavily armed, and way more armored so its pilot could fly another day even
if he was unlucky.





The ultimate purveyor of airborne whoopazz - P-51 Mustang
It brought firepower, maneuverability, speed, and serious range to the party.
Oh, yeah, and drop-dead gorgeous looks, too! (always important)
When Hermann Goering walked out of his office and saw Mustangs over Berlin
he is reputed to have said "The war is over." Pretty much, dude. Your dumbfuk
boss shouldn't have fukked with the Rooskies neither.




P-38 Lightning - used by our two top aces and the recon model in which
Antoine de St Exupery went down in the Med.
Of the P-38, Doolittle said that it was "the sweetest-flying plane in the sky". Who would argue with him?
The P-38 was credited with destroying more Japanese aircraft than any other USAAF fighter.
That other thing? F-15E Strike Eagle. They say it's pretty good.






Slight thread drift - Mig 15 and F-86. A guy who has flown both says the
Mig flies nice, like a Chevy. The F-86 flies like a Caddy and packed more punch.





More thread drift for which I fully expect to be pardoned.
The Strike Eagle 'yankin' and bankin'. Oh, yeah, and puttin' the hammer down!
A little loud? Phukkin' A Ray! Dial it up!



Got a light?





Count 'em. A whole bunch o' whoopazz! The announcer figgered 60,000 horsepower!
Think that sounded sweet? Holy bejeebus!




PROUD!









survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
May 16, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
Feckin sweet pix man, sweet.


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 16, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
and why the jihadis don't, either

just read "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors"...a great book about the last major naval engagement of ww2 and the last major naval battle in history

a terribly outnumbered and outgunned american contingent of escort carriers and their destroyers takes on a huge japanese fleet...the narration is enthralling and brought me to tears more than once
Dolomite

climber
Anchorage
May 16, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
Very cool pics. Hope you had a chance to get some flapjacks at Flo's Airport Cafe.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
May 16, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
Hitlers decision to use ME-262s as bombers instead of fighters when they first came off the production line was one of the biggest mistakes he made in the war. Had the ME-262 been able to go after the B-17 and B-24 bombers, who's to say how things might have turned out. Adolf Galland (luftwaffe ace) was quoted saying that had the ME-262 been used as a fighter just a year prior, it could have turned the air war around in their favor.
Not to say that these planes didn't kick ass, I love the sound of a p-47 roaring by. From the WW2 history I have studied though, it appears that just a few bad decisions by Hitler caused the war to be won by the allies, or at least made it easier to win. Good thing for the rest of the world that Hitler was stubborn about his decisions.
I had a chance to check out and go inside a B-17 and B-24 about a month ago. There was a ww2 vet there who had been a pilot in a B-17 and was part of a crew who had flown 35 missions. He had not been back into a B-17 since the end of the war. While chatting with him he started to feel dizzy and some thought he was a having a stroke. Luckily he ended up being ok, I imagine that being back in a B-17 after 65+ years and remembering the experiences and lost friends just tripped him out too much.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 16, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
Very cool stuff.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 16, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
Some of the planes my dad flew in training and in the war. One in four students in his Corpus Christie NAS flight school died during training including two successive roommates. He and his buddy hated seaplanes as they typically anchored out an you had to wait for a ride in - said it took too long from landing-to-martini. Retired after years in DC10s and 747s.











This last was the Navy's experimental version of the B-17 outfitted with radar as part of 'Project Cadillac II' with MIT Lincoln Labs - the original ancestor of all modern AWACS squadrons.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 16, 2011 - 06:30pm PT
Yeah, timing counts. Good thing the war was about over when the Germans got jets


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262

Gene

climber
May 16, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
Yeah, timing counts.

True. Accidently or not. Midway. June 1942.
Weld_it

Trad climber
Chatsworth
May 16, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
FACT: COOL PICS OF MODELS!!!! I MADE SOME AS AKID
slabbo

Trad climber
fort garland, colo
May 16, 2011 - 07:14pm PT
Commander of the 1st fighter wing , about F-22's

" We can go anywhere we want and command the airspace for as long as we want"

Kinda like Task force 38 (my dad) in '44
okie

Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
May 16, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
"P51 Mustang, Cadillac of the sky!"
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
May 16, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
Nice post Reilly-exciting machines and history.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 16, 2011 - 09:03pm PT
The Zero didn't pack punch?
It had 20mm cannons.
How much punch do you need?

Hey bookworm, did you miss Woody's thread?

My buddy Bob shot down 3 MIGs with an F-86 in the last 3 months of Korea. Killed plenty of people on the ground too.
Said the trick with MIGs was to climb. They had poor climate control and the bubble would frost up leaving them blind.

He was an afficianado of the P-51. But it had a radiator. One shot could down it.
The P-47 on the other hand was air cooled. It would take a pilot home with a bunch of cylinders shot right off.
The Jug was a worldbeater.
AJB

climber
May 16, 2011 - 09:04pm PT
Very nice photos...that's a great airshow. That White 14 Butcher Bird is I believe a ground up new built Fw 190 A-9 from the German company Flug Werk.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 16, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
My mom did wiring harnesses for P-47s at the Republic plant in Evansville, Ind.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 16, 2011 - 09:17pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7Nf9Ng6R14&feature=fvwrel

'nuff said.

The A-10 and the Spectre gunships are 2 of my favs. But the F-18 Super Hornet is pretty badass!
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 16, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
Thanks Reilly. That was sweet!
TY
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 16, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
The Japanese had by FAR the best trained pilots in the world at the beginning of WWII. They had the very best top candidates, and spent several years training them. A Jap pilot would kill dozens of American or British planes in the beginning. But their training was too extensive, and took too long. they couldn't keep up with attrition. American/British/allied pilots might not be as good, but there were a LOT of them.

The 'japs' also (and still do have) had a different culture. It would be lame to compare the two. The japs, like the Nasties, were whipped up into a nationalistic fervor. They had no problem enduring insane missions at insane odds.

The only reason we did the same is because we were attacked and fighting for our lives. They were fighting for motherland glory and pride. We just wanted it over.

And we 'ended it'. Sorry, dudes. Mess with the best, die like the rest.

I have no regrets saying that.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 16, 2011 - 11:07pm PT
The japs had good pilots because they had already been at war for near 2 years before Hitler invaded Poland.
They were veterans.

That sort of changed in June '42.
We killed hundreds of their best pilots in one day at Midway.


And just so that this thread is not entirely OT;
back in the '60s my mom and her friend Bill Ullman hired a helicopter and buzzed Hughes' private apartment at the Landmark. He was pissed!
Bill's dad was James Ramsey Ullman.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 16, 2011 - 11:08pm PT
Weird things, like climbing to the top of a flag pole and hanging on with one hand for long times, looking at images of fighter aircraft and bombers across a room, the size of a fly, and correctly identifing them. **Their pilots made ours look like amateurs for the first couple years.

They just couldn't turn them out fast enough in the end ...**

Yeah, all that Samurai/hardcore bullshit really helped them out. The bottom line is, yes, they were cruel badasses, but we were even more willing to win at all costs. We had red-necks flying planes in insane glory.

And they lost. End of f*#king story...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
May 16, 2011 - 11:43pm PT
Cool Pics Rieley! and Quite the story Ron!!
Pate

Trad climber
May 16, 2011 - 11:53pm PT
nice photos!
BooDawg

Social climber
Butterfly Town
May 17, 2011 - 12:31am PT
A few pix from the Pacific Aviation Museum on Ford Island, Pearl Harbor:

Zero.
Zero.
Credit: BooDawg

Who knows what kind of plane this is?
Who knows what kind of plane this is?
Credit: BooDawg

???
???
Credit: BooDawg

B-25?
B-25?
Credit: BooDawg

???
???
Credit: BooDawg

???
???
Credit: BooDawg

USS Missouri where the Japanese signed their unconditional surrender.
USS Missouri where the Japanese signed their unconditional surrender.
Credit: BooDawg

USS Bowfin. The U.S. submarines played havoc on Japanese shipping in t...
USS Bowfin. The U.S. submarines played havoc on Japanese shipping in the Pacific.
Credit: BooDawg

BooDawg on the deck of the USS Bowfin.
BooDawg on the deck of the USS Bowfin.
Credit: BooDawg

Ego-Testicle BooDawg on the Deckgun of the USS Bowfin. These are REAL ...
Ego-Testicle BooDawg on the Deckgun of the USS Bowfin. These are REAL BRASSNUTS!
Credit: BooDawg

And the straw that broke the camel's back in the Pacific War...


















First atomic explosion, Alamagordo, NM 1945
First atomic explosion, Alamagordo, NM 1945
Credit: BooDawg





healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 17, 2011 - 12:48am PT
They had the very best top candidates, and spent several years training them. A Jap pilot would kill dozens of American or British planes in the beginning.

That jibes with my understanding from my father's stories around the high death rate in our flight training programs - they were high volume affairs assembled with great speed and geared around keeping the funnel full, really pushing pilots out the other end as quickly as possible. My dad and his buddy were radio guys tapped for early British radar training and then picked up for flight training. Not bad choices as they both turned out to be exceedingly comfortable flying and both became test pilots.
AJB

climber
May 17, 2011 - 01:28am PT
Much has been written about the experiences of the Allies. For some perspective from the other side of the Pacific air war check out Samurai!, a book about Saburo Sakai's experience as Japan's fourth leading ace.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
May 17, 2011 - 02:01am PT
Boodawg..

Pic 2 and 3. Curtis P40 warhawk

Pic 4 looks like a B 25 mitchell

Pic 5 and 6. Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bomber.

Those would be my guesses.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2011 - 02:22am PT
Dirt Claud's comments about Hitler's decision to make the ME 262 a bomber are spot on.

Comments about the Japanese having better pilot candidates are not. Potential pilots
were exhaustively vetted physically, mentally, and psychologically. As Ron
noted the Japs' early successes were due to their extensive combat experience and
our initial inability to realize a P-40 or an F-4 Wildcat could
not turn with the Zero. When Chenault's boys figured that out they did just
fine against the Zero with the inferior Warhawk. Citizen soldiers are always
going to figure out a way to 'get the job done.'

There also seemed to be a comment alluding to the Japs' willingness to
sacrifice all. I suggest reading up on the US torpedo bombers at the
Battle of Midway. They knew they were going to die but they kept coming.
I think one or two survived.

Further comments about more extensive flight training are completely off-base (sic).
The washout rate was high because the standards were so high. Our guys had
many more hours under their belts before they saw combat than their counterparts.
Sure, we had a better supply but we didn't cut any corners in giving them the
best training conceivable. If you weren't considered fighter jock stock then
you went to bombers. The difference was often very negligible.

In June '42 a Zero crash-landed in the Aleutians and we were able to get it
flyable and wrung it out. When the fruits of that endeavor were disseminated
even a low-timer knew what to do against the Zero. By Feb '43 the first of
the Navy's new F6F Hellcats joined the fleet and it was time for the fat lady
to sing "Sayonara Zero-san!" The Hellcat "outclassed the Zero almost completely."

If you want to read about how exhaustive our flight training was I strongly recommend:

The Wild Blue : The Men and Boys Who Flew the B-24s Over Germany 194445, by Stephen Ambrose

It is mostly the story of George McGovern's flying career but as with any
Stephen Ambrose book it is a gem.

If you want to read about the making of a fighter pilot then the go-to read is:
Fighter Pilot: The Memoirs of Legendary Ace Robin Olds

I know, fighter pilots are born, not made.




edit:
An old stud walked up to me at the air show and asked me if I wanted to buy
his book. I told him it would be an honor. He was a Jug jock. It was hard
to talk with that damn F-15 overhead! HaHaHa! Turns out his book is a novel
but it is clearly totally autobiographical even down to the skirt-chasing scenes!
It is feckin' great! It is also extremely thorough in describing his flight training.
I'm halfway through but I guess I'm not gonna complete the mission tonight. Damn.

Bolts of Thunder by James Vincent Powers

The back cover says another of his books was made into a movie in Germany!
"The American version was sold to the National Geographic Channel,
and was first aired Dec 17, 2008" Gotta check that out!

"Mr Powers served as a fighter pilot in WWII, with 47 combat missions in Europe.
He is also an engineer, and helped design the F-111 fighter plane.
He has two children and one grandson, and lives an active life in
California playing golf, bowling, tap dancing, and writing."

It takes a stud to tap dance and he looked pretty damn nimble still.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 17, 2011 - 09:48am PT
Yeah, Reilly, Midway is a fascinating battle.

I recommend Victor Davis Hanson's account in Carnage And Culture.

I believe at one point 15 torpedo bombers sacrificed themselves drawing the fighter cover down so that the dive bombers could succeed.
Of the 15 two man crews only Ensign George Gay survived, bobbing in the water as the jap carriers slid by.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 17, 2011 - 10:33am PT
Citizen soldiers are always
going to figure out a way to 'get the job done.'


Ron beat me to it with the VDH recommendation.

"Carnage and Culture" is an excellent read.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
SoCal
May 17, 2011 - 10:43am PT
Thanks! Great photography. Super sharp photos of fast moving objects. You are good!
eKat

climber
BITD3
May 17, 2011 - 10:49am PT
WOW. . . this is a cool thread. My dad was a USAF Pilot and a member of The Ancient and Sacred Order of Quiet Birdmen. I was raised with all this stuff. Makes me think of the Captain! (not the rock, my dad.)

eKat
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 17, 2011 - 11:40am PT
Yeah we had a few planes back then, March AFB in Riverside (actually MoVal, but back then there was no MoVal)

Historic photo from March Field
Historic photo from March Field
Credit: Elcapinyoazz
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2011 - 11:49am PT
Ha! The Bolts of Thunder I started reading last night has the autobiographical
hero taking his aerobatic training in a AT-6 Texan, as shown above. As he
rolled inverted (I know, redundant) the spare change in his pockets goes clanking
all over the canopy. When he went back to straight and level it then slid through
the floorboards. His instructor then said, "Unstrap your harness. I have the
airplane." He then rolled it and started juking and the coins fell back onto
the canopy upon which the protagonist was now kneeling. He greedily collected
as much as he could and then zipped his pocket shut and the instructor rolled back to level.
HaHaHa! Spare change back then was worth doing crazy shite for, eh?


edit:
The Canuckians called their AT-6's the "Harvard". I guess 'Texan' wasn't posh enough.


In case you've been lying awake at night wondering what the underside of a 'Texan' looks like:



There is a saying in flying, "Keep the shiny side up!" That doesn't apply to these beauties!
You're gonna see the shiny side all the time!
Gene

climber
May 17, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
I agree with Moosie on the ID of those birds.
PhotogEC

climber
In front of my computer
May 17, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
Very cool thread with great pics.

For the WWII aviation buffs in the crowd, check out Lost Squadron. I'm completely unaffiliated--just a satisfied customer.
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
May 17, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
The National Air Races are the first week in September here in Reno. If you love aviation I highly reccomend you give it a day or two. You can access the pits where you see a P51 racing, and all the usual military planes from past and present.

It a really fun day of racing and planes if you enjoy that type of thing.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 17, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
I love this pic, the early March Field with the future Moreno Valley being nothing but farm fields. Dig the twin-engine bi-planes. March was established 1918, most of it was built out around 1929-30 there's a very rich history there.

The good 'ol days.
The good 'ol days.
Credit: Elcapinyoazz
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
May 17, 2011 - 12:33pm PT
Half a Wing, Three Engines and a Prayer: by Brian O'Neill

Really great book about the 8th air force air war over Europe, mostly B-17, but some B-24 stuff as well.
There is a really good free documentary on Netflix too called "Memphis Belle".
I thought it was the movie that was a made in the 90s at first, but it's actually a two part documentary about the real Memphis Belle and the Air War with original war footage.

Edit:
I gotta stop by and see all the planes at march AFB. Always drive by on my way to Big Bear and Josh,but haven't had a chance to stop there.
They have a huge air show too.
the goat

climber
north central WA
May 17, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
Nice post with great pictures too! You can buy MIG's relatively cheap, it's just the fuel consumption that sets you back a bit!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
You can buy MIG's relatively cheap, it's just the fuel consumption that sets you back a bit!

Yeah, plus the FAA makes you take the ejection seat out to promote personal responsibility!
According to the FAA there are 43 privately owned MIG 15s in the U.S.





I couldn't believe those goons weren't even waving!


Christmas is coming early to some happy camper!
(it is a Mig-21 shot on I-5 near Weed,CA)

Credit: Reilly
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 17, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
The March museum is pretty cool, there are some funky foreign aircraft there too. Here's another old March pic

1934 @ March
1934 @ March
Credit: Elcapinyoazz
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
Did I mention I dig nose art?








I wish I'd taken the time to get the story on this Lockheed Lodestar.
Normally used for hauling brass this one was set up to do some business! (apparently in the Aleutians, no less)






I suspect Fuddy Duddy and Pacific Princess are the only true-to-the-period repros.
The others are pretty obviously air-brushed which I don't think was done BITD.
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
May 17, 2011 - 04:07pm PT
Credit: guido
Allsion eng
Allsion eng
Credit: guido
Credit: guido
Merlin-Rolls Royce
Merlin-Rolls Royce
Credit: guido
Credit: guido
Pratt & Whitney
Pratt & Whitney
Credit: guido
Credit: guido
Credit: guido
Credit: guido
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
May 17, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
Pre bombing leaflet warning
Pre bombing leaflet warning
Credit: guido
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
May 17, 2011 - 07:39pm PT
A correction to an earlier statement here: the FAA does NOT require deactivation of an ejection seat, but it's a pricey annual inspection. Look for ads stating "Hot" seat in surplus military jets. I wouldn't want to fly a MiG 21 without one. The pilot couldn't get out at all.

All that stands between most pilots and ownership of a MiG is the fuel cost at ~6.00 / gallon for 700 gallons in a MiG 21. There are several hundred Czech built L-39 Albatross fighter/trainers flying here in the U.S., and they are very popular. Flight training in one costs $1,500/hour, and 10 hours are required for qualification/logbook endorsement. An FAA checkride finishes the deal with a fighter jet.
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Feb 11, 2012 - 12:11am PT
Just love this photo
Just love this photo
Credit: TrundleBum
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 11, 2012 - 02:09am PT
So, Reilly, you want the real story about Tojo and Adolph?

It's here:



Sorry there's no video, just that one still picture, but listen close to old RL Burnside, who turns out to know a thing or two about ol' Tojo.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2012 - 02:35am PT
Thanks Ghost! RL be tellin' it like it is! Man can turn a phrase!
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