About the raid: We have new details about the raid itself. It was launched from a base in Afghanistan. It was a squadron of U.S. Navy Seals that took part in it. That is about 40 Navy Seals. About 24 of them landed on the ground and entered the compound. We're told that they offered him a chance to surrender; but, they didn't waste much time. That's when the shooting began. There was lots of shooting - no U.S. service members were injured in the firefight that ensued.
One of the U.S. helicopters that flew in the raid had mechanical difficulties, we're told by a U.S. military official. That helicopter had to make a hard landing and we're told that it was destroyed ... by the others involved in the mission. We're also told the Navy Seals were practicing over a week. They knew about this mission for a week and they had been practicing for the raid until given the orders.
Discovery did a special on BUDS. It's really worth watching and amazing what the human body can endure when willpower is involved. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQkn9qFsDzE
I learned to appreciate Navy Seals many years ago. I was horsing around with one, the game got rougher and rougher. He finally picked me up and threw me double overhand like a some pro wrestler move. I landed on my back on concrete. I learned how not to be a wimp at the moment right after impact.
A big thanks to Navy Seals everywhere, past, present and future.
Jay Smith spent quite a few years training Seals in rock climbing and ice climbing. I went on a week long training exercise with Seals in 1965 when I was in the 7th Special Forces and was impressed with their training and physical conditioning.
I have climbed with many SEAL's, over 10. I can tell you as far as climbing goes, they are nothing special. I have seen a SEAL get scared and back off a 5.8 sport climb. At the end of the day being able to kill someone in 500 ways and being to bench press a car means nothing when it comes to climbing, they still have to practice just like any other noob. They are in good shape yes, but they still make the same mistake everyone else does when they start, not using their feet! Those biceps will give out eventually, no mater how often you work them. And they still have the same leading fears anyone else has when they lead their first few climbs.
The son of a friend who lives in Ouray is a new (1 year) Seal and two well-known
climbers brought him up to speed. Being from Ouray he already had a rolling start though.
But I gotta say why did they use 'Geronimo' for bin Laden's code?
That doesn't seem very 'sensitive' these days. Seems like 'Septic Tank' or
something similar would have worked as well.
They are hands down the most bad ass guys I know, on and off the rock. Most of the ones I train can swing leads on multi pitch in three days of training.
They are not whiners like some guys here, they go out and fiight and die to protect our freedoms and lifestyle.
My sis is married to a retired one and there are others in the family.
The quintessential seal is wirey, lean and an endurance freak. Those burdened with excess muscle mass have a harder time surviving buds. Think cross country runner and not power lifter.
I've heard lots of great stories. Those guys are the real deal and even if they don't crush on the stone they can do a lot more and do it well as we've just seen. Hardy bunch indeed.
^ ^ ^
Hmmm, I don't know about the the above (bergbryce's post, not Locker's).
The retired ones I've seen on the news in the past few days always seem heavyset (to use the polite term). A little fat may help them survive the cold water swims.
Seems like it would be useful to have a collection of SEALs having different body types depending on the mission--high level endurance athletes are incredible at what they do, but I don't see most of them as fighter types. They don't have much muscle, especially upper body.
Who would win in a fistfight--marathoner or sprinter? Even if they're armed, I would expect sprinter to have the advantage due to fast twitch muscles.
I have had a few ex SEALS come through my station during their probation period trying to get on the fire department. The ones who really were SEAL's never brag or talk about what they saw or did, they were quiet and and very respectful to everyone.
I also ran across a few rookies who said they were SEAL's but turned out they were not, they were a couple of the most prideful, loudmouthed, arrogant SOB's. The direct opposite of what the real SEAL's were like.
Back in the day i helped Jay Smith with his guiding program. We would go climbing with Dano, Gerberding and a bunch of tough, multi discipline soldiers.
Best story was ice climbing in Rifle. Rule was no leading so they all started soloing. After three days
Archive photo from Vietnam “68, 2nd Bat 327th Infantry Reg. 101st Airborne
Credit: lostinshanghai
A toast to started it all, no slack Colonial, you can sleep in peace now. Can’t say you failed on this one. Honour to have known you. 2nd/327 Charlie Company: No Fu#king slack
Okay, sitting next to a former SEAL right now (in VA Beach)... Says the huge guys usually didn't last the initial training. Some who made it through decided to bulk up after getting in. Hand to hand combat was more of an emphasis for some teams than others but not really a big emphasis.
Just told me about the 12 nautical mile swim using this "side crawl" stroke, said that was about the toughest thing he had to do.
Edited to add...
Just told me there is a lead climbing school that not all SEALs attend. The goal is for each platoon to have at least one person who could lead a climb. Some of the guys who attend do have some climbing experience, others have none and want to get a "qual". The instructors are experienced climbers. One of his buddies had a very humbling experience on an lengthy unprotected traverse.
In the survival of the fittest the Navy Seal came in last place.
The climbers kicked their asses every time ....
If you mean in that crazy proto-reality TV show from the early 80s, I'll take your word for it, I'm sure you'd know.
But if you mean in the real survival of the fittest, the SEALs would kick climbers' asses bad (except for Weld-It)!
Edit--are you sure it was even a real SEAL in the competition--my theory is that virtually everyone who goes around saying they are a SEAL is lying, so we don't even know who the real SEALs are. They're like Jedi/Lord of the Rings guys.
There are so many claiming to be ex SEALs that at one time there was an organization that ran a web site called identiSEAL. It is no longer functioning, but an other site has picked up the slack.
“The MAN” that founded our current Delta Force. He played around with the SAS [British Special Air Service]. Failure on the Iran Hostage Rescue [Operation Eagle Claw]which was one of the first of his missions and didn’t really get over it, retired from Army after that and worked as a security consultant. *dust from sand storms hindered choppers from flying so he was not blame. A congressional hearing on the botched raid created JSOC which he was a part of. Died at home of natural causes at 65.
Remember in Feb/Mar ‘68 he was creating/looking for new stealth team. “Anybody interested” looking at me. I asked what is your survival rate. He said 1 in 5. I was at the time looking at 1 in 10. Said to him “No, thanks I am happy where I am”. Still ended up getting shot two months later in hunting accident over there.
And for Werner on the Survival of the Fittest, he is right that seal was a PPPP PA PA...... PUSSIE.
Read Roberts ridge a month or so ago. Highlites the absurdity when different branches of the service all fight over who gets to fight. Let me play in the sandbox too! It seems clear that Roberts fell out of the chinnook because he was a Seal. According to the chopper pilots, Seals are the only troops that refused to clip safty lines when on the back deck of the choppers. All other soldiers, special forces, rangers etc all clip in. Not the seals they are too cool. They also break out all the windows of the chopper every time they board ship to the point that at the time of that incident there were no replacement windows available in Afganistan. BTW we all payed for those windows.
Marchinkos books left a real sour taste in my mouth. lots of kidnapping tourture and murder. Very little combat. Awarded himself the silver star for action that sounded like a a routine day at work for a line platoon.
A lot of people underestimate the 'man' behind the SEAL. I expect them to be cool, nonchalant, and under-the-radar. That is their job.
And this is why they kick ass!!! They never get thanked. They just get 'er done.
What are you talking about?--Obama thanked the SEAL assassination squad in person.
If it were up to me they would be "thanked" by having to answer for their conduct in court in the various countries where they do whatever they do, and I'm sure lots of other people feel the same way.
Edit--I respect that this is an appreciation thread and I won't interfere with that, but Philo see next post is his usual full of crap self. The Nuremberg defense doesn't cut it.
NO Blahblah many others don't agree with you. Many others think Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the Gang should be tried in international court. Not the SpecOps guys who are just following orders.
Seals, are not only train killers, they do a lot of hostage rescue as well, if your dumb-asses get kidnapped over-seas, they'll be your best friends.
I knew Neil Roberts, he was a gentle giant of a man, and his slipping on hydraulic fuel was not as simple an accident as you may think.
Werner, I train a seal who swung leads on Lurking Fear after only five days of training on an artificial wall. Think what the same guy could do if he spent as many days on the rock as we have. Just because a few didn't do well on survival of the fittest doesn't mean climbers are tougher.
They are, some of the smartest, level-headed guys I have ever meet, and go out and defend our freedoms on a daily basis, while you rich kids come up with ridiculous assumption drinking chai tea in Berkeley on Mommy and Daddy dime.
Did you ever wonder about how you got the freedom to slam the very people who gave them to you, I'd suggest a little respect and appreciation or go to another thread.
Radical you're not paying attention.
If you're really in ST6, you don't tell people you're in ST6.
Sorry but your buddy's buddy is one of the few people in the world we can now be absolutely sure is NOT in ST6!
One of the most incredible, powerful and honorable Human Beings I have had the sincerest privilege to meet during my 24 year Naval Career and my entire life thus far. Gave me the best direction any young Sailor/Man could have ever gotten from an Old Warrior.
A true honor for me I tell ya. Will never forget him nor those incredible words of motivation he offered me back in 1979, for as long as I live.
MEDAL of HONOR Citation
“For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while participating in a daring operation against enemy forces. PO Thornton, as Assistant U.S. Navy Advisor, along with a U.S. Navy lieutenant serving as Senior Advisor, accompanied a 3-man Vietnamese Navy SEAL patrol on an intelligence gathering and prisoner capture operation against an enemy-occupied naval river base.
Launched from a Vietnamese Navy junk in a rubber boat, the patrol reached land and was continuing on foot toward its objective when it suddenly came under heavy fire from a numerically superior force. The patrol called in naval gunfire support and then engaged the enemy in a fierce firefight, accounting for many enemy casualties before moving back to the waterline to prevent encirclement.
Upon learning that the Senior Advisor had been hit by enemy fire and was believed to be dead, PO Thornton returned through a hail of fire to the lieutenant's last position; quickly disposed of two enemy soldiers about to overrun the position, and succeeded in removing the seriously wounded and unconscious Senior Naval Advisor to the water's edge. He then inflated the lieutenant's lifejacket and towed him seaward for approximately two hours until picked up by support craft.
By his extraordinary courage and perseverance, PO Thornton was directly responsible for saving the life of his superior officer and enabling the safe extraction of all patrol members, thereby upholding the highest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service.”
Ironically, the man that Mike saved, was himself also a SEAL and also a MOH Awardee.
Here they are together a couple of years ago at a MOH reunion:
LT. Thomas R. Norris
MEDAL of HONOR Citation:
Lt. Norris completed an unprecedented ground rescue of 2 downed pilots deep within heavily controlled enemy territory in Quang Tri Province. Lt. Norris, on the night of 10 April 1972, led a 5-man patrol through 2,000 meters of heavily controlled enemy territory, located 1 of the downed pilots at daybreak, and returned to the Forward Operating Base (FOB). On 11 April, after a devastating mortar and rocket attack on the small FOB, Lt. Norris led a 3-man team on 2 unsuccessful rescue attempts for the second pilot. On the afternoon of the 12th, a forward air controller located the pilot and notified Lt. Norris. Dressed in fishermen disguises and using a sampan, Lt. Norris and 1 Vietnamese traveled throughout that night and found the injured pilot at dawn. Covering the pilot with bamboo and vegetation, they began the return journey, successfully evading a North Vietnamese patrol. Approaching the FOB, they came under heavy machine gun fire. Lt. Norris called in an air strike which provided suppression fire and a smokescreen, allowing the rescue party to reach the FOB. By his outstanding display of decisive leadership, undaunted courage, and selfless dedication in the face of extreme danger, Lt. Norris enhanced the finest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service.
Truly two of the most courageous, incredible and selfless Human Beings that walk this earth today.
I'd done a modest punch of ROSO in the RAN. Through service, I'd shared a few windy wet days with the USN and US Army on exercises. I've noted that many a pusser and infantry grunt can go just as hard as many-a SF/SO operator for the first 24-hours; it's the ambition and ability to back that up day after day with a healthy sense of humour that sets the best apart.
Seals rock. And I understand that some of them think bad arse alpinists rock too.
The key ingredient of a "Frog" is that everything they do is simply just the job that they signed up for. The most important aspect of that job is that "Failure is Not and Option". What ever is put in front of them is simply a challenge/objective that must be met and completed with precision and 100+% of intensity, focus and selflessness. They are the epitome of the true meaning of a professional. Nothing more, nothing less.
"Quality NOT Quantity"
"The Only Easy Day Was Yesterday"
"Never, Never, Never Quit!"
BUD/S Class 129
Here is a very brief synopsis of my personal experience with the incredible "Frog" philosophy. I will not divulge any names just ranks/rates.
The saddest and most intense day of my Naval career was back in the Spring of 1985 when I was called into the CMC's Office at the SPECWAR BUD/S Compound. I was a First Class and already had over ten years of duty under my belt. Been in "Class" for most of all three phases and pretty certainl that I was going to graduate and continue on with STT, get Pinned etc and then onto a Team and then Operate. Unfortunately for me, I had an ASD repair procedure completed when I twelve. It was all part of my BUD/S application/screening package. I was approved to test up and if I passed to be scheduled for the soonest class. That all went without a hitch and reported to and then classed up at the Amphib/BUD/S Compound, Coronado, in Sept of '84. Well, I knocked then was ordered "to enter" the CMC's office. I did so, reported and was told to be seated in front of the CMC's desk. I quickly noticed that both the OIC and the Dive Med Officer where seated to right side of the office. Master Chief then asked me how my day was going and I quickly answered fine and gave a good ass hoooyaa. He didn't dilly dally around. He came straight to the point. He told me that the BUMED Dive Div in Panama City FL, had returned a report concerning my ASD repair and how it could potentially fail on dive op below 100'. They stamped me a "FAIL". The end recommendation was that I was to be immediately NPQ'd from BUD/S and returned to the Fleet with no possibility of future return to BUD/S nor any Naval Training/Duty Program that entailed diving. My heart sank! Immediately the OIC spoke up and stated that this was one of the worst dismissals from BUD/S or the TEAM's he had ever witnessed or had to order. Then Master Chief quickly told me that he had read my record and saw I was an ABH1, reviewed my prior experience on the 66 Boat and my flying days on the Ice and SAR duties prior to coming to BUD/S. He stated that the TEAM's were definitely losing a valid asset. But, and a big but, the but that followed me the rest of my Naval Career, was that the Fleet and more importantly the Navy, was getting back the class naval professional individual that I was. He instructed me to go back to my duties on the deck of the carrier with pride and to hold my head up high. That this deal was indeed a rotten one but that it would only serve me to be a better ABH and more importantly, the over all mission of the US Navy. The OIC then instructed me to carry on with all that I have learned there at BUD/S and pass on the Frog tradition of "Quality NOT Quantity" for the remainder of time I chose to serve in Navy. They all stood up and came over, shook my hand and thanked me for my dedication and hoped that I would choose to remain in the Navy as I was a over all asset to the big picture.
Life was hard for me for the rest of the year but I shook off the disappointment of being NPQ'd and moved on to the deck of the 43 Boat then to the 65 Boat where I finally made Chief, then volunteered to and flew Combat SAR in Somolia, and after 5 years of service as the Air Dept LCPO retired in March of '99, with a very stellar and awesome career. At least that is what Adm B*R stated at my retirement ceremony.
To this day, my heart and soul lives by much of what I was taught and learned about myself at BUD/S. Truly a precious and life altering experience that I am so grateful for and would never turn in for anything different.
Between my BUD/S experience and that which LT Thorton passed on to me earlier in '79, I am today nothing less than a product of the intense of honor and motivation of the "Frog" mentality and philosophy. Those ST individuals out there that personally know me, understand completely.
I am and will be forever grateful for it all. My sincerest Thank You if anyone out there reads this little written piece and may remember being a part of my life during that timeframe.
Seal Team Six, the same team that killed Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan last year, raided a Somali pirate camp yesterday to rescue an American woman and Danish man being held hostage. Both are aid workers who’d been kidnapped by the pirates last October. Nine pirates were killed in a firefight during yesterday’s attack, and another five taken prisoner.
I was at the Solid Rock gym in San Diego, CA, circa late 1990's, when I watched an incredibly lean and fit climber leading a 5.12 route in the lead cave. After recognizing him on his success, he revealed that he was a Navy SEAL from out at the base on Coronado Island after sharing that I was too was a fellow shipmate. In conversation he also talked of having to keep a sheep alive, after having a mortal wound purposely inflicted, as part of his training. This kid was SWOLE, to say the least!
Since San Diego is the principal homeport of the Naval Pacific Fleet, and having Santee Boulders and Mt. Woodson in my backyard, I encounterd Navy personell and SEALs/wanna-be SEALs quite often. Another memory was of a SEAL named "Kevin" who walked me through the traverse on the Twenty Point Boulder at Santee for the first time after twenty seven years of visiting the place. Being as smart and as fit as those kids are definitely gives them a firm foundation for climbing.
One thing, that I find amazing about these guys, is they never seek recognition, nor fame of any kind.
Certainly, that can't be said for the media darlings, who egotistically occupy our sport of climbing.
While climbers risk their lives to serve themselves, Seals risk their lives for a greater purpose, to serve others.
Doing something greater than yourself, is the very definition of a hero.
Probably one of their most honorable attributes. Everyone knows they are the best, but unlike spray-master climbers, they do not brag, and rarely talk about their exploits.
Being a badass is one thing, but never bragging about it is another.
Truly, the most lethal yet honorable soldiers alive today. I have nothing but admiration for these guys, and their missions are NEVER easy...
Hey Chief, former HM2 "Doc" here...how did they approve you for Amphib/BUDS training with your ASD repair on your FITREP? Did they overlook the ramifications for deep dive training? I'd say that was a major SNAFU!
Actually, they are ordered to maintain a low profile.
Believe me (I've met a few) these guys DO have egos. Some quite substantial.
But they are an elite that have earned their props.
Understanding that when Mossad send out a kidon team to assassinate somebody it is seen as execution of a legitimate state sanctioned warrant, it is nonetheless much easier to feel good about a rescue mission by SEALs than a "terminate with extreme prejudice" mission.
Osama certainly deserved killing, and the burial at sea was a brilliant twist likely to be repeated on those enemies whose followers are still a problem.
But seeing Americans cheering in the street reminded me of the muslims that cheered 9/11.
But seeing Americans cheering in the street reminded me of the muslims that cheered 9/11.
We should be better than that.
I like ya, Ron, but f*#k off on that sentiment!
Do not equivocate the two events lest you fall into a dangerous 'we started everything' Ron Paul trap.
I really do not want go into why we, yes WE, should be allowed a wide berth when we go into action.
As I said before, we go in with the F*#KING MOST RESTAINING AND HUMANE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT that it drives me crazy!!!
I know you know of what I speak. If we can actually bag one of these pieces of demonic sh#t, I really don't care how we do it. And thank God that Obama agrees with me on this.
EDIT: Yeah, the Seals have the humility thing in their sworn credo. Look it up.
I grew up with them around the pool at the summer parties my dad threw.
Young active and retired guys, 60s to early 70s the younger active guys never hung around long I mean it was mostly an older crowd with kids.
You could feel the energy coming off the active guys almost taste it. They were just back or on the way to Nam.
Never thought how tough my dad was till the time we were parked for the night at Mammoth Hot Springs in a motor home.
Five dudes in a truck ran into the motor home about 1am.
By the time I got out two were on the ground and one was backing up saying mister I don’t want any.
I looked at my suit and tie type dad who I had not in years seen get physical standing in his underwear realizing he had skills this punk never wanted to put to the test.
Ok Werner you were one of the few in my memory who had some real street experience. I mean not the weekend for fun variety.
During one fittest episode I would have liked to see how a seal would have handled Ron P. charge with the jousting sick on the log. I think it would have been tougher for Ron but who knows.
When you go work out with UCLA’s gymnastic team and they can not do your workout yer pretty Fing tough.
Actually, they are ordered to maintain a low profile.
Believe me (I've met a few) these guys DO have egos. Some quite substantial.
But they are an elite that have earned their props.
Understanding that when Mossad send out a kidon team to assassinate somebody it is seen as execution of a legitimate state sanctioned warrant, it is nonetheless much easier to feel good about a rescue mission by SEALs than a "terminate with extreme prejudice" mission.
Osama certainly deserved killing, and the burial at sea was a brilliant twist likely to be repeated on those enemies whose followers are still a problem.
But seeing Americans cheering in the street reminded me of the muslims that cheered 9/11.
We should be better than that.
Agreed I have met several dudes involved with SOF type stuff that were complete dicks...
On that note Erik Prince, a former navy SEAL ( and who started Blackwater international) is supposedly a dick...
He also cheated on his ailing wife and married his mistress... Some good Christian he is....
Haha! the slagging continues from laughingman. You're right, SEALs are real dicks, but climbers like you are real awesome!!!!
I said SOF types not SEALS. I know one or two former Navy SEALS that were nice guys.
The several people I am talking about ( they shall not be named) were part of old boys club that comes out of West Point and other OCS schools. For some reason they felt this gave them "Special A-hole privileges" well on leave.
Hey, I got an opportunity to shoot the Barrett M107A1™ Sniper rifle! Not that I'm but a worm, but I was providing a stand-by at the Iraqi National Guard (ING) range at FOB Hit, Iraq, in '04-05, for our snipers zeroing their weapons, when I was asked, "Ya wanna take a few shots Doc?" by one of our snipers. "Be sure to keep your mouth closed when you pull the trigger," he warned. I didn't quite grasp that one but feeling "like a kid in a candy shop" I layed prone anyhow to bang a few rounds. After loading one of the nearly six inch rounds I eyed a rock in the distance through the scope and pulled the trigger. "BOOM!" the air cracked, my body softly sliding back across the ground, a funnel of dirt filling my mouth from the back wash created by the recoil. "Okay, I get it now," I thought silently while spitting mud from my mouth. Good stuff!
To all you SEAL nuthuggers:
How do you think it would turn out of the Somali kidnappers had US weapons, logistics, and communications, and the SEALS were armed with crappy rifles, sticks, and stones?
If you really want to nuthug the people responsible for US military might, go to your local engineering school and bow down. I'm sure SEALs are tough guys, but they got 'em all over the world, and that don't mean jack squat without modern equipment.
You are as funny as that damn penguin that was always getting himself f*#ked up and begging Mr. Wizard to save his ass.
I truly believe a SEAL with a rock is far more dangerous than a Somali pirate with an AK.
I wouldn't put money on an armed pirate against a bare assed naked Mossad or Spotnitz(sp?) asset either. And I don't care what the Somali has. Everything is NOT equal, will NEVER be equal, and thank God for that. It's just foolish to pretend they might ever be.
Weld_it, I doubt you will ever make a operational Marine, much less a SEAL.
I DID know a Marine who wasn't especially good, he did get his honorable discharge. I doubt there is such a thing as a poor functioning SEAL. My buddies kid joined the Marines for some damn reason ("they made me feel wanted, and they invited me to parties. They called me back over and over. None of the other recruiters did anything like that").
He had always been the kid most likely to stay in camp when the rest of us went for the peak. He was a hard core Catholic, and took after his mother more than his dad. I don't think the Marines ever trusted him to actually kill anybody in a pinch. They placed him on duty in the Kali desert, and gave him a generator to run and maintain. Definitely second echelon posistion, although the Marines claim to have no second echelon, that EVERY Marine fights.
My buddies kid is a good kid, slightly, although subtly "different" in some way. But He would never have been my choice as a backup in any kind of a fight. He was a "good marine", but not a good killer. I think they just couldn't scare enough of the dedicated God Fearing Catholic out of him. "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation, actually.
But SEALS can your ass if you can't make EVERYBODY think you are an ultimate badass.
I truly believe a SEAL with a rock is far more dangerous than a Somali pirate with an AR.
I wouldn't put money on an armed pirate against a bare assed naked Mossad or Spotnitz(sp?) asset either. And I don't care what the Somali has. Everything is NOT equal, will NEVER be equal, and thank God for that. It's just foolish to pretend they might ever be.
Wow didn't have you pegged as a SEAL nuthugger, but that's OK.
I guess we Americans like to have our myths just like everyone else. But if you believe a SEAL with a rock is more dangerous than a Somali pirate with a rifle, you've been sitting around the house watching too many action movies (while puffing a little smokin' material too perhaps?)
Look at the history of the world, my friend, the peeps with the technology kick the ass of the people without it. I'm sure the victors all think they are major tough guys too.
I wouldn't put money on an armed pirate against a bare assed naked Mossad or Spotnitz(sp?) asset either. And I don't care what the Somali has. Everything is NOT equal, will NEVER be equal, and thank God for that. It's just foolish to pretend they might ever be.
I have my doubts man, If such a statement was true the Chechen separatist would have been destroyed years ago. However they still fight Russian occupation. ( Note; I disprove of terrorism committed in the name of Chechen separatism)
Wow didn't have you pegged as a SEAL nuthugger, but that's OK.
I guess we Americans like to have our myths just like everyone else. But if you believe a SEAL with a rock is more dangerous than a Somali pirate with a rifle, you've been sitting around the house watching too many action movies (while puffing a little smokin' material too perhaps?)
Look at the history of the world, my friend, the peeps with the technology kick the ass of the people without it. I'm sure the victors all think they are major tough guys too.
Reagrding SEALs and Army Green Berets in particular, do you have any idea of the the endurance, skills, and tactics involved? Why do you think that the wash-out rate is so high in training. Especially amongst SEALs (the water training is brutal).
You can attribute that specialized training to technology, but that is just a result of something else - culture and discipline.
fattrad,
Disagree on the capabilities of the high end law enforcement vs. SEAL teams.
Last time I checked they don't use HALO and Submarines for their missions. I don't doubt they are highly trained and capable but the naval and marine operators are in a league by themselves. I would not be surprised if the law enforcement section you are talking about has members that were prior team members given the area they are located.
Erik
dmons has some serious 'degenerate punk' issues. So it's obvious he'd have little respect for Spec Ops guys or the military in general.
And "jizzwich"??? Are you attempting to insult my mother, you rotten little piece of sh#t? You are almost unworthy of contempt. You are a worm, but I usually try to help stranded, sunning worms, so you a couple of tiers lower.
I find it impossible to garner any respect for you and your ilk. You are a dick, sir.
if i was anything of the sort you wouldnt have bothered to reply
but since you did,
yes, your moms birthed a f*#king whore
ive no comment on that fact; given youve several thousand posts which more than prove the point
was she a whore?
hard to say; easy to say she abandoned you to false idols at a youth and abandoned her responsibility to deliver an adult to the society which subsidized her spawn
not exactly a whore,
more like a welfare queen who slept in whenever you need help with homework
now back to you and your faithless propensity to sell your fellows out on a dime
care to get over your butthurtz panty waste antisemitism and explain where ive got this wrap up of your online character wrong?
but since you did,
yes, your moms birthed a f*#king whore
ive no comment on that fact; given youve several thousand posts which more than prove the point
was she a whore?
hard to say; easy to say she abandoned you to false idols at a youth and abandoned her responsibility to deliver an adult to the society which subsidized her spawn
not exactly a whore,
more like a welfare queen who slept in whenever you need help with homework
Maybe you're right. We should hook up and go climbing and discuss this. Maybe you're right.
now back to you and your faithless propensity to sell your fellows out on a dime
care to get over your butthurtz panty waste antisemitism and explain where ive got this wrap up of your online character wrong?
Again, I may be wrong. Let's go climbing or meet up and talk about this stuff. You may be right.
Where do you climb at? Let's hook up and do some climbs and calmly talk about where I'm wrong.
all the faint,
no substance,
nothing of meaning
cue the dogs tail tween the legs
so, you cant explain yourself?
nothing to outline the definitions of your words,
the meaning of the phrases you use
no insite into what drive?
notice folks,
he makes it nice nice and easy to change his mind and opinions on a dime the second some rich fat white as#@&%e tells em to think differnt
isnt that the credo of the almightly dollar"
imagine sucking the dollars penis getting you anywhere here
SEALS have their own submarines, little personal jobs for two or three guys and gear. Sometimes a lot of gear. They strap the mini-subs on the outside of a sub, or in a little tubeular carrier bolted down.
It allows them to NOT use SCUBA, no bubbles. Rebreathers are useful for that reason too, but have a very short range. The little stealth subs allow them to be dropped off also by sub, many miles from the target.
A rebreather uses CO2 scrubbers and an oxygen source. Currently they seem to useful for about 15-30 minutes. Tanks can allow several hours of down time. Rebreathers emit no bubbles, they have to continue to carry the air you exhale and reuse it. They are very different pieces of equipment, and don't kid yourself.
Depth allowed and downtime are DRASTICALLY different. WHAY differnet tables. Exactly how different, well, I'm not a professional diver, but I bet there are guys here who can tell you exactly what the limits of the two different systems are.
But you absolutely don't use re-breathers very deep, or real long, you increase the levels of CO2 and that is deadly.
I could be wrong, there is always new equipment and new techniques, but I don't think thats changed yet.
dmons won't even tells us where he's from or who he's ever climbed with from here, alas he goes into the unofficial 'troll-book and as#@&%es' file of mine.
Not many reside there...I still watch 'em, just ignore them mostly.
BITD, certain unhappy inmates were taken out to the ramp for attitude adjustment. What's happening in MCJ has gone a bit too far, look for corrective action soon.
Morgan, I saw that piece too. I commented earlier in this thread that the 'advertisement' of our SEAL operations is unusal and not wanted by the SEALs.
The only recognition they like is from their peers in the military. They take pride in getting the most difficult assaignments. They DO NOT like their exploits going public.
They're supposed to be covert ops, not publicized.
Morgan, I saw that piece too. I commented earlier in this thread that the 'advertisement' of our SEAL operations is unusal and not wanted by the SEALs.
The only recognition they like is from their peers in the military. They take pride in getting the most difficult assaignments. They DO NOT like their exploits going public.
They're supposed to be covert ops, not publicized.
I'm not really that concerned what the SEALs "want" (as if you have any idea). Obama is the commander and chief and he will decide how our military resources are best used. That may well involve highly publicizing (and even exaggerating) our special operations capability to use as a deterrent.
Remember that the actual SEALS are extremely low on the food chain (are they even officers?) and have no real strategic responsibility.
If it increases their budget, a little openess is called for. An operation like that becomes a units mythos, like D-day and the big One.
You cant deny a little value to the fear that comes of hearing of a real units prowness, that is a worthy tradeoff. You get enemy that decides not to even challenge you when the unit DOES get mentioned. SEALS???
RAH???
RUN!!!
Its not like the enemy didn't know what happened, or couldn't prove nuttin... oops, we left some evidence behind... a big ass helicopter with USA written all over it...
I want to see the mission patches they will make for that op.
'Nightmare' at home for SEAL who shot Osama bin Laden
(CNN) -- He's the man who rolled into a bedroom in Abbottabad, Pakistan, raised his gun and shot Osama bin Laden three times in the forehead.
Nearly two years later, the SEAL Team Six member is a secret celebrity with nothing to show for the deed; no job, no pension, no recognition outside a small circle of colleagues.
Journalist Phil Bronstein profiled the man in the March issue of Esquire, calling him only the Shooter -- a husband, father and SEAL Team Six member who happened to pull the trigger on the notorious terrorist. It's a detailed account of how the raid unfolded, and what comes after for those involved. The headline splashed across the cover reads, "The man who killed Osama bin Laden ... is screwed."
For the first time, the Navy SEAL who killed Osama bin Laden tells his story — speaking not just about the raid and the three shots that changed history, but about the personal aftermath for himself and his family. And the startling failure of the United States government to help its most experienced and skilled warriors carry on with their lives.
The term that comes to mind "Left out in the cold" know it well.
Definition: unwanted
Synonyms: blackballed, excluded, inadmissible, left out in the cold , not in the picture, not wanted, rejected, shut out, unasked, undesired, unpopular, unsolicited, unwelcome
Also “take a hike”
Hope he sues the government. That will get their attention
The Shooter is judicious about the details of his story and hasn't been involved in dramatic books, movies or video games that will make millions for some. It's out of loyalty to his work and concern about his family's safety,
His attorney would have the government hand over documents in his defense, sensitive ones that could compromise security of the US and likely deal out of court.
They would use some of those 2 billion US dollars in currency that went missing in the Iraq war number years back during Bush and President Cheney term of office.
His argument comes from the dysfunctional government apparatus. One for the safety for his family and the other time it takes to get help.
A couple of years ago all those in DOD and currently in DOD have to use the VA system for their health.
Budget problems either more drones or health. Congress chose drones over health. Now everyone is processed through the VA. Overloading: 9 months just to get to see a doctor for a start. “I have problem Doc or my wife, son or myself”. Tests another 3 months, after these tests another month for any action. Medications instead of solving the problem which can take another 6 months.
The only thing we were awarded when we got back was the best [two] filet steaks that cut like butter. Then it was bye, bye: so long, take it easy.
College education paid for, low interest on buying a home which no bank wanted to touch and that was it.
As for us coming back trying to get employment remember when I went in there was another guy who was less qualified, when the question came up about serving in the Army, guy who was doing the hiring turned white and said “don’t think so, bye”.
Trying to get insurance for my car, agent said well you do have a record of not driving for a couple of years, told him I was running around in the mountains hunting. He still said well you still need to have some proof of a driving record. So thinking how stupid this guy is, I said I drove a tank does that count. Got the insurance.
Sad, not only this hero but everyone else coming out same problems. He should be able for Social Security unemployment. Then that will take months.
Excuse me but, can anyone here state why this Frog is any different from any of the hundreds of thousands of Combat Vet's that leaves the Service?
Anyone that "Volunteers" for service these days, regardless the duty they conduct, is informed from day one that on departure from service, they will only have the VA to follow through with for any medical bene's. That is why we are all informed prior to our departure where and when to go after one leaves.
Fact is, he, being an "Operator" with extensive combat time, is most likely qualified for numerous VA disability bene's that will add up to a couple grand a month for life.
All he has to do is what the rest of us Combat Vets had to do in order to collect it.
The process has been extensively revamped for the better in the last 5 years. VA Disability application turn around these days runs no more than 120-180 days max with retro pay from the day of departure. Expecially for those recently discharged from active duty that have all their med and personal records with them.
Also, once they are in the VA Med System by submitting their Disability Application, they are entitled to immediate medical benefits for life.
Fact is the system has gotten 100 times better since I retired 14 years ago.
I assist local Vets in getting their deserved bene's. Fact is, I completed helping a local Vietnam Vet just last Fall. He got a retro check for some $82K as well as pay to cover all of his past related med expenses from his approved Disability. He is now rated at 100%. He is the fourth Vietnam Vet I assisted in the past six years get their due VA benefits that bottom line either gave up on the "Old" system or were just not aware of the goods afforded them.
Sadly, ignorance of what Combat Vets have coming to them is a prevailing issue as well.
A lot of these guys don't know how to quit. If someone is going to fight, then they often have a hard time transitioning to watching someone else go, or being in a position to send someone else. Some guys can handle the transition. Others can't.
I believe I read that he did 12 tours overseas in combat situations. Thats a lot.
You have no idea what you're talking about, taking out sh#t birds, who kidnap mentally retarded people and strap them with bombs, to blow up women and children is just one of their many skills.
Hostage rescue and saving lives is another.
What qualifies you to be a critic, about people who selflessly risk their lives to preserve your freedoms?
Let's support all our armed forces by reducing their size to a level that is at all comparable to any other major country in the world. We'll get rid of at least of half of all the armed forces, save a bunch of money, and take a little better care of the remainder.
John, I am completely sympathetic to this aspect, but he did however volunteer for the SEALS.
There is currently no clause that says you get full retirement, unless you volunteer for special ops and are subjected to far more than the usual amount of deployment and or combat missions.
I feel for him and his family, but SEALS is what he actually busted his tail for. They're not known for their sweet comfy safe deployments.
He knew this.
Sure he knew it. But I doubt that anyone could be prepared for the kind of continuous war that we have been fighting.
You take a young man who is full of vim and vinegar and there just isn't anyway for him to know what it will be like when that inner force is diminished. Thats what age and wisdom is suppose to bring. We as the elders are the ones responsible for protecting these young men from their own enthusiasm. Maybe time in shouldn't be the only qualifying factor. Its a tough call, but we have not ever had a time in our history where we have been at war for so long. Especially not fighting 2 fronts. This is something that people like fattrad, with his calls for continuous wars did not understand.
I hope this story gets more coverage. People need a better understanding of the real cost of war. There are thousands of ways it cost us. And it costs those who fight in them.
And I'm not saying that we should pension everyone. I'm just saying that most of our focus is on the heroics. And we fail to see the long term costs.
Fact is, he, being an "Operator" with extensive combat time, is most likely qualified for numerous VA disability bene's that will add up to a couple grand a month for life.
What makes you think they [VA] will award him 100% which is close to 3 grand? The most he will end up would be around 50% which is only under $900.00 a month.
Plus the VA is not the greatest in health care. As for surgery sure he might get a great doc but still 80/20% chance of getting it right. As for seeing his first interview on his conditions it will still take after 9 months of starting to get help and months to correct the problem.
And as for the meds VA only can afford certain ones since they are expensive. They are still using 50 year old medications. Met one guy that is taking one that is $100.00 3x a day plus $$ for a few others to mellow him out. That is just one returning Vet that waited a year to get into the VA system. Hear it all the time.
VA Seeks to Reduce Claims Process Time
Week of February 11, 2013
I am currently rated at 90% for several shrapnel and TBI injuries. All combat related. I have been in the VA Health System for over 13 years. I get ALL the meds I need for... Free. No limits. I even got a nice pair of $7K pair of Phonek's for .... Free. I get all related health care locally at my local health facility for all my Rated issues (which is pretty extensive) for.. Free as I reside over 150 miles from the closest VA Med Ctr.
I assist local Vets with Benefits and Disability Applications and have done so for over 12 years. So far I am batting 100% in getting them all their benefits and retro medical and Disability payments paid. All of them have gotten applied, eval'd and then Rated in no more than 120 days compared to the old 6-10 months to even get seen for an evaluation.
This is all real world, not Wiki or Google.
And you Shanghai, you stayed in the Holiday Inn last night, right!
As usual your propaganda machine is at play and you have this all figured out.
But please do let us all know your personal experience with the System.
The Brotherhood takes care of one another for life Shanghai.
They don't sit around on the internet whinning about the problem/s and do nothing to help their Brothers in need nor attempt to go out in force and try to fix the system.
If you really care Shanghai, I most highly suggest you stop whinning, get involved with your local VET CARE office and start making a difference.
And please, I do not need to hear you sob story about Nam. For someone with the supposed combat experience you have, you cry more than my new 3 month old Rottwieler puppy.
Even more reason to get off his ass and get involved to better the system. That btw is how the system is getting better. All by Vets helping one another with "Failure is not option" attitude and getting the shet fixed locally.
This whinning routine that the system is broken is no longer an excuse. Cus it aint. Trust me.
Had he been in a local Vet Health Center, he would have seen how most of the folks working in em these days are guess what.... VETS!
That was one of the major changes that occurred some 10 years ago that starting the ball rolling. Every person I encounter in the C-N-C at the Reno Vet Med Ctr for my issues are all VETS!!!! From recieptionist to physician.
Seems you are not informed, course when have you ever been.
Here is link or PDF you should get the past behind you and be more educated on the subject. Think you would know but seems you are part of the problem and not helping with the solution with the VA.
Oh I fought as I continue today for my Brothers & Sisters.
So please cease the bullshet comments.
Truly amazing how folks as yourself constantly need to resort to personal insults as your strength to attempt to prove your invalid points.
Now that is class.
Obviously since you are refering to that report, you have ZERO first hand personal experience. But please do continue sitting behind that computer of yours perpetuating your negative propaganda. Totally inexperienced in the System.
In the mean time some of us will be doing all we can to make a difference for our Brothers & Sisters.
The Cheif is taking time to help folks using whatever expertise he has gained. That's really what matters most it seems to me. Who can you really help and is that a priority for you.
He sure presents a prickly exterior on this forum and seems to enjoy the confrontations too.. lol
On every level that sounds like a USN Cheif to me.
"Truly amazing how folks as yourself constantly need to resort to personal insults as your strength to attempt to prove your invalid points."
"
Now that is class."
Have you read any of your old posts seems maybe go back and see yourself in the mirror. Look like you needed anger management but you erased those.
As for my rating 100%; on a classified mission in '68, was declassified by Bush a few years back; a tale what was going to happen 8 months later in A Shaw Valley and the future.
No where near the past Shang. Doing the deal now and as often as I can today. Helping in any way shape or form to help other Vets get what they deserve.
I quit drinking 13 and half years ago after I beat an old Vets ass in a bar that was constantly whinning his ass off about how fkd up the Marine Corps was and I then spent 45 days in Hanford City jail for doing so.
The ONLY anger I have today is for those that continue to do as that old whinner did and do nothing to apply themselves to make the system better.
Now, since you are supposedly 100% rated (that means you had to have either lost both legs below the hip or are totally blind in both eyes or have terminal cancer from AO etc), what Vet Program are you proactive with on a regular basis in order to do what you can to get your Brothers what they are due and make the system better locally?
I'm sure he is, looks like he's been to a ton of schools, I dunno many of those ribbons, but that's an Infantry Badge, it's not a Combat Infantry Badge. Just sayin'
I have been fortunate enough to have the privilege to work with the SEALs. I cannot emphasize enough what a privilege and an honor it is for me to get to share my passion and skills of climbing with these guys. Working and getting to know some of the team guys over the last couple of years have given me a whole new perspective on what the teams and all military personnel actually do for every single person that lives under our flag.
I have been very lucky as a climber and what climbing has given back to me. Big trips, filming projects, rigging gigs, whatever it may be, getting to work with the Naval special forces is by far, the pinnacle of my climbing career.
No sh#t, when I was in Afghanistan they all stayed in the base. The Afghans hate the foreign troops more than anything in the world, that's probably why. I usually wore a shalwar kamiz and fit in fine. Here's a picture of me ten years ago on the *outside* of the Bagram base:
SEALs are not common or normal. They are unusual flukes in the types of people we would task with the job of dropping EVERYTHING on a minutes notice to obey their orders from the Pentagon.
This is not like doing bong-hits and soloing Half Dome. These SEALs have to live life on the edge. And their families do too!
They have to go on a moments notice! They have to go into combat instantly. They have to be ready!
Potter? John Long? Bachar? Braun? I don't think so.
But of those 4, Werner might be best adjusted.....
As to whether or not top notch climbers would be good in combat......
Well, some would, but being good at either doesn't guarantee you would be able to cope with the other. When you're climbing you might think the mountain is trying to kill you - but of course it isn't....
When you are in a dirty fire fight you know the bastards on the other side are trying to kill you and IMHO you have much less control over the outcome.
Some folks get habituated to either and cope admirably, and at one level some of the characteristics are the same. But I wouldn't put a lot of money on all hot shot climbers being any use in a trench.
It's just an old Russian tank, there's hundreds of them everywhere. It's dangerous to take one step off that road. The whole place is a minefield and there are red markers that mean it hasnt been cleared. Afterwards my friends told me never to do this again, since the tanks may be booby trapped. In fact, Afghanistan has part of the Hindu Kush and it would be a great destination for climbing, except for the land mines. The insurgents like the mountains too.
My father had job #9 on the list. He knew a few guys that got killed on the job.
He worked hard and risked his life to provide a useful service. A service that you are using right now as you stare a this screen. A service that is certainly more relevant to the security and safety of Americans than killing some tribesmen on the other side of the world.
But electrical workers, and roofers, and taxi drivers don't kill brown people with expensive machines. They don't get the "hero" label. They just risk their lives every day to support our economy and provide for their families.
I do respect the the military. I respect anybody that has a tough job and does it well. But the idea that people in the military are more altruistic than others is bullsh#t.
With every job, people choose what they do for their own reasons.
How many episodes of "Surviving the Cut" did you watch from your couch?
Um, you don't have to be a SEAL to appreciate how grueling their training and missions are. They have to organize missions at the drop of a hat from the DOD/CIA. They are constantly ready to go, and with amazing professionalism/integrity/clarity.
They are the best. The British SAS is pretty close though.
Lithuanians are supposed to be "crazy" hardcore too!
Um, you don't have to be a SEAL to appreciate how grueling their training and missions are. They have to organize missions at the drop of a hat from the DOD/CIA. They are constantly ready to go, and with amazing professionalism/integrity/clarity.
I do respect the the military. I respect anybody that has a tough job and does it well. But the idea that people in the military are more altruistic than others is bullsh#t.
You want altruism? Join the Peace Corps and send us a postcard.
Ya never understood the anger torwards are troops. Who keep us safe.and ask for nothing in return.
I'm now going on my 24 year working with the Navy and can say they are tougher, stronger, and smarter than 99% of the top climber I've climbed with.
Many, Many have died, so many that at one point, I lost most of the men I'd been training to injury, death or PTSD.
They never promote themselves, and never question why, they give their all to take out people who would kill us without remorse for just believing in equality and justice for all. They rescue those being held hostage and being tortured, raped and murdered.
They are not appreciated by the liberal media, or by the white elite who make up are self absorbed climbing community.
But they deserve our respect and gratitude, and on this spiritual day honoring a man who gave his life for a power greater than himself, perhaps we should take a moment to honor the fallen who never asked for anything and paid the ultimate sacrifice so we can live in peace.
Well coz, I recall a comment by a SEAL about a butane lighter, so I am not so sure about your promotion comment, but I know it was a by product of testosterone fueled bravado.
Certainly they are our best, and their training is rigorous.
They are a precision scalpel in a very large tool box.
Kos' link seems to dead end at #10 (taxi driver).
I wonder if "climbing guide" is on the list. Seems to me that it exceeds the fatality rate of crab fishing.
Ya never understood the anger torwards are troops. Who keep us safe.and ask for nothing in return.
I'm now going on my 24 year working with the Navy and can say they are tougher, stronger, and smarter than 99% of the top climber I've climbed with.
Many, Many have died, so many that at one point, I lost most of the men I'd been training to injury, death or PTSD.
They never promote themselves, and never question why, they give their all to take out people who would kill us without remorse for just believing in equality and justice for all. They rescue those being held hostage and being tortured, raped and murdered.
They are not appreciated by the liberal media, or by the white elite who make up are self absorbed climbing community.
But they deserve our respect and gratitude, and on this spiritual day honoring a man who gave his life for a power greater than himself, perhaps we should take a moment to honor the fallen who never asked for anything and paid the ultimate sacrifice so we can live in peace.
Let us know!