Hydrofracking - are we nuts? (OT)

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 25, 2013 - 10:17am PT
There is nothing neutral over Carbon. We have to actually remove it from the atmosphere, because we have already crossed at least part of the tipping point by spewing almost all of your oil into the atmosphere already. We are burning coal right and left.

Biofuels or anything you burn is bad. Use natural gas or propane if you can.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 25, 2013 - 10:49am PT
"There is nothing neutral over carbon"
Base with great respect,How?
Wood ,biofuels,start their life as plants,taking co2 out of the atmosphere ,replenishing o2.Their cycle is just that.There are huge arguments against fossil fuels for this very reason.No fossil fuels can do this,this is the premise of carbon neutrality.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 25, 2013 - 11:00am PT
It does matter where you live also.JE you live in Fresno,a close friend lived in Selma for years ,i remember him saying that smoke from his woodstove could linger for days,depending on weather systems.He also said smog could form in the valley and take some time to move over the sierra.Is this correct?

DMT answered the question technically accurately, though as someone who spent nine years in the LA area, what constitutes "bad air" and what feels like "bad air" differ. Nonetheless, the San Joaquin Valley is one huge basin with prevailing winds that carry air -- and everything in it -- to the base of the Sierra and Tehachapi mountains. During the winter, a thermal inversion keeps that air stagnant, and particulate matter becomes a real health hazard.

Now as for Selma . . . my wife is from Selma, so I have an extremely high opinion of Selma natives. Your friend must have been outstanding.

John
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 25, 2013 - 11:07am PT
John,thanks for that. My freind from Selma was Norm Gong Guy,he worked with me for 20+ years.He passed away from pc 4+ years ago.So i too have high regards for Selma. Terence
and yes he was an outstanding person.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 25, 2013 - 11:28am PT
Biofuels or anything you burn is bad. Use natural gas or propane if you can.

Please explain?
TE
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 25, 2013 - 11:33am PT
I like Selma too. Raisin capital of the world and some fine Mexican restaurants, if you can successfully negotiate getting across the railroad tracks hahahaha.

Check out Rodolfos... interesting twist on salsa (I think it has applesauce in it)

You eaten there John? I know there are other gooduns there too.

DMT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 25, 2013 - 11:45am PT
I'll ask my wife if she knew Norman. There was a Gong Guy in her class at Selma High who died in a fire while she was in high school. I wonder if they were related.

I have not eaten at Rodolfo's, DMT, but it's now on my list.

John
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 25, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
John,He would have been 54, as i am,many sisters and brothers,his dad ran a asian food store in Selma.A very humor filled person,a masters in biophysics from the University of Rochester,[what brought him here]with undergraduate studies at Berkeley.A 25 year carpenter and superb craftsman.
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Jan 25, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
Please explain?
TE

Just look at what each fuel pumps into the atmosphere and then decide which is the best one, for now. So that we dont head past the amount of what we can put into the atmosphere in order to not surpass the 2c limit of warming.

Thats something like 565 giga tons more, which works out to about 16 years at the current rate with a 3% increase per year.

So if we can get into LNG we may be able to lengthen that time to transition to something else and start conserving
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Feb 6, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/US-Breweries-go-to-War-against-Fracking-Industry.htm You gotta love breweries!
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Casper the Friendly Ghost Town!
Feb 7, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
Not sure if this point was covered or not. It's well-known (that's punny!)that many oil and gas wells are not properly sealed when they are shut-in or abandoned. Operators are supposed to plug certain know zones where groundwater resides. So, if that is at 5,000 ft. they need to cement or shove bentonite down to those zones in the casing to prevent transmission of fluids in the event the casing erodes or is compromised.

Not sure of the frequency, but I know it happens more than we realize from well inspectors BLM and actual oil and gas personnel that have done this practice. A favorite practice to seal wells is just to plug the first several feet of the top of the well/casing and call it good and not even plug the zones where groundwater is found. Once the casing erodes and fills up to the groundwater zones, contamination is inevitable.

I wouldn't count on being able to use groundwater in areas of oil and gas development within 50-100yrs. after drilling began, give or take.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 7, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
Base104: Casing leaks happen in certain areas

healyje: I'd say it's the combination of an inevitable percentage of casing leaks in combination with shoddy flowback disposal that are the problem with fracking. I'm guessing the former happens infrequently but can have fairly serious consequences, but having worked around the mid-south and having a pretty good feel for the kind of fly-by-night operators who are out there leaves me with far greater concerns with the latter.

So to the former, how pervasive are casings failures and how often are there serious environmental / health consequences as a result. To the latter, how many bad players are there and how big a problem is shoddy or criminal flowback disposal?

Maybe this is the better thread for asking this question...
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 7, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
Every casing leak that I have ever seen has happened years after any frack flowback. It takes that long for a corrosive zone to eat through that stout steel.

I'm sorry, but you guys have zero knowledge of how drilling and production works. If I could have a full day and a chalkboard, I could give you the basics, but a seminar on oil and gas production for non scientists costs several grand. Those courses are usually for non science types who work in or around the oil business. Management, land, banking, those sorts.

I'd try to explain more, but I'm tired of doing it over and over.

Every casing leak I have seen is from corrosive fluid on the backside of the production string. You still have two strings beyond that which cover groundwater. When you buy casing, it is drifted, pressure tested, and right before it goes in, the threads are electronically inspected. If a thread doesn't pass, it gets red spray paint and doesn't go in.

A prize for anyone who can tell me what a kelly bushing is. Google is off limits.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Feb 7, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Damn Base. My mind grows old and feeble; back when I was 17 working on gas rigs in the gulf I knew what a kelley bushing was, but I'll take a stab at it: it is the swivel that allows the pipe to spin while keeping the drilling mud contained.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 7, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
I get that probably most folks do things by the book and also that sh#t sometimes happens.

With regard to casings I'm simply trying to ascertain what the likely frequency of such casing failures as a percentage of the total number of wells (say per thousand wells) assuming the incidence is somewhere north of zero.

And I already know all about sketch crews in any number of fields - in this case I'm just trying to decipher - from someone who seems to me like they really know what they're talking about - what percentage of the fracking is done by crews likely to cut corners and cause problems - again, assuming the number is somewhere north of zero in the real world.

Having some idea of both, in combination with aquifer and water sourcing info in any given area, I should think would give at least a rough idea of the overall risk to drinking water supplies over time and how much state and federal oversight is required.

I also get that no one likes negative waves in the midst of a gold rush. I'm just trying to cut through all the hype on both sides to get a rough idea of the risks involved.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 10, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
Close John,

The kelly is basically a square pipe that you screw into the top of the drill pipe at every connection. It goes through a square hole in the rotating floor and spins the drill string.

Now you remember, eh? The roughnecks sit in the doghouse getting warm, staring at that kelly going down. When you are drilling very deep you might have a ten minutes/foot rate of penetration. That's 300 minutes between connections. If they are lucky, morning tower gets to sleep all night....
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 10, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
rotating floor

Motor table?

Been 38 years, my last rig was all diesel electric.
Saaweet

Seen a lot of crazy sh$t. My last day our dereck hand was riding the collars up, driller was whacked on a 3 day speed trip and ran him into the crown. I walked and the driller threatened all water haulers not to give me a ride. Then the tool pusher showed up and asked me what happened, he gave me a ride in and told my driller (and the rest of his crew) not to come back.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Mar 6, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
http://stateimpact.npr.org/pennsylvania/2013/03/06/will-new-yorks-fracking-decision-matter-to- We here in NY win,for now. The money will eventually win though.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Mar 19, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Fracking California! Let the drilling begin.

The Monterey Shale, running southeast of San Francisco at an average depth
of 11,000 feet, extends over about 1,750 square miles and may hold

64 percent of the nationís estimated shale oil reserves, according to the
federal Energy Information Administration.

Thatís double the combined reserves of the Bakken Shale (NDBOOILP) in North Dakota and the Eagle Ford Shale in Texas, where energy companies are spending billions.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-17/california-fracking-fight-has-25-billion-taxes-at-stake.html



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 19, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
Operators are supposed to plug certain know zones where groundwater resides. So, if that is at 5,000 ft. they need to cement or shove bentonite down to those zones

LOL

If you are pumping from a 5,000 ft aquifer (if any viable ones exist) you are going to go broke on pumping costs.

1,500 ft is a really deep water well.
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