Hydrofracking - are we nuts? (OT)

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bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 24, 2013 - 09:22am PT
always suspicious when the accusers are reluctant to answer straight questions:

http://fracknation.com/


also suspicious of cries of environmental disaster ala the alaskan pipeline, exxon valdez, gulf oil spill, etc.

not saying we shouldn't be careful, but hysteria is not convincing


Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 24, 2013 - 10:19am PT
who are you going to believe?


Or who are you going to have some faith in? If you are a Hook worm you certainly won't invest any faith in regulatory government agencies but that leaves industry...... enough said.

Up here our gas industry along with many other resource extraction industries are so poorly monitored and environmetal standards are so poorly enforced as well as watered down to such insignificance that we have no real faith in government..... which leaves Industry?!?

Base - would you ever consider wearing a white hat? I'm only half kidding. Are you really confident of your regulators to manage and enforce and avoid corruption?

If so I congratulate and envy you
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 24, 2013 - 10:43am PT
well said bruce
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 24, 2013 - 11:21am PT
wilbeer,

You state the following: "I really feel with all of this that i have been cornered into defending my turf.Local government has been bought,farmers around here do not want fracking.They want windmills.Yet ,fracking, will sail right through,so you could see the dismay of mine and plenty of others here."

I agree that local sentiments matter. In my neck of the woods, those who burn wood to heat their homes are villains this time of year, because the pollution from the particulate matter constitutes a much greater health hazard than the pollution from electricity generation or methane combustion. Your locality is apparently different.

And windmills here are now getting a bad rap because the local environmental community says they cause widespread destruction of migratory birds. As BASE104 says (or would say), all energy remains imperfect.

Your statement about farmers selling out confuses me. If they don't want fracking, but they're selling out, what's going on? Are the energy companies taking their mineral rights by eminent domain, or do these involve private, voluntary transactions? I don't want to work, either, but I gladly trade my time for money. Does that mean I'm being treated unfairly?

Finally, you ask who I would believe. I believe people in the industry, such as BASE104, on technical issues, because they are the ones with first-hand knowledge of what actually goes on in the field. I am particularly skeptical of Hollywood, because it is in the business of creating fantasy, and of the conventional, unspecialized media, because they are ignorant and subject to group think. Also, the conventional media seems to be more and more enamored of "advocacy journalism," or, as we used to call it, propaganda. When advocacy groups on either side of the fracking issue provide arguments, I examine their data and explanations and make my own decisions. I don't choose what to believe before hearing the evidence.

John

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
John,firstly,burning firewood is one of the cleaner ways to heat.Yes ,the particulate goes in to the atmosphere,there it combines with a variety of compounds and settles out through gravity,in effect cleaning our atmos phere.The same thing is said of forrest fires.As a geology prof once said"a solution to pollution is dilution".Not only does firewood do that ,it is carbon neutral,burning methane is not.

Secondly,windfarms are big here,and only getting bigger,farmers make more on their leases and less physical land is used employing mills=more crop yield.There are less[other than those you mentioned]possibly bad repercussions to their crops/livestock.Most farms around here grow vegtables for Birds Eye,a leading food company,they do not want to risk losing those contracts if things were to turn south with fracking.I can understand why farmers downstate[delaware river valley] want fracking,because the DOA has been buying them out and relocating them for decades.The farming sucks because of poor water/soil conservation practices.

And finally,Josh Fox,a resident of ny,grew up in pa.[as did i]From what i know,he made a documentary,had trouble getting distribution,accepted money from an actress,amongst others[yes liberals],to get the thing distributed.It was not made by hollywood.You can read into that whatever you want.The premise of the film was to show exactly what Base has said,what a huge industrialization fracking is.
What kills me is that all they[gas industry] have debunked is that the guys tap water does not light up.They have not even tried to say anything about what the rest of the documentary states,i.e.condensate pollution,surface and wastewater disposal,land use,misuse,etc.

Now if this were in the name of energy independence,maybe i could get behind it.But in light of recent findings that the gas companies want less restrictions, so they can export gas to countries that will pay more than us,i and many round here are more than against it.Especially with the things that COULD happen to OUR environment. Terence
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
http://stateimpact.npr.org/pennsylvania/drilling/violations/ And one other thing,all this just 70 miles south of me, in PA.Just sw of elmira,ny,three rivers start,the alleghany,which goes to the ohio,the genesee which goes to the st.lauwrence and the susquehana which goes to the chesapeake bay




That is what ive been talking about.I have been to some of these sites,these guys could not organize a rockfight,but we should trust them.3025 violations,and the PA DEP are way understaffed to try and keep up.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
I agree on the one side is hysteria....and the other profits.

There are always solutions. But you are not going to get them from the ones profiting and you wont get reasonable ones from the hysterics.

I have been cleaning up the worst stuff in the USA for over two decades now, dealing with the results that the profiteers left behind and trying to find reasonable solutions that the hysterical people end up disagreeing with.

In every single clean up I have been on it would have ALWAYS been cheaper to not pollute in the first place. Allowing Frackers to inject "proprietary" chemicals into the ground is stupid. It may not "fix" the overall problem that Base refers to, but I dont see anyone on this thread willing to say, "No, I am not climbing this weekend to save gas so I can save the environment". Thats because it is not a real solution in this day and age. Which is not to say that we do nothing. We absolutely need to try and conserve. But at the end of the day we have to fix the problems that we can fix and not throw our hands up.

There needs to be tighter controls on fracking in terms of pollution pprevention. Pay now, or pay a LOT more later.
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Jan 24, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
John,firstly,burning firewood is one of the cleaner ways to heat.Yes ,the particulate goes in to the atmosphere

and your lungs and then you die....its one of the leading causes of death in the undeveloped world where the use it and dung exclusively for cooking and eating

KNow what happens when they get some cashola...they buy a propane stove
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Yeah, most third world countries dont use those EPA certified Wood Buring Inserts or Stoves. In fact, most old trailer parks in the USA dont either.
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Jan 24, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
right now, with gas prices in the gutter, drilling has slowed to a crawl in the shale gas plays. Everyone is drilling for oil. The joke is if you hit a gas well you will be fired.

There in lies the rub, the cheaper the fuel the less money we will spend to find better fuels. So in reality, if oil could go really high then we could move on.

This is why building pipelines from the oilsands is not a good idea in the name of moving onto a cleaner alternative.

It would involve fewer regulatory hurdles - after all, they'd simply double an existing pipeline on existing rights of way, and increase the amount of tanker traffic through an already heavily used and regulated waterway.

It still crosses two provinces which makes it a federal gig, so still quite a few hurdles, less than keystone but more than within a single province

I'll say it for the thousandth time. An American uses something like thirty times more resources than your typical third world citizen. So when you talk about our 0.9% population growth, the effect is much higher. We are a little country, 5% of the world's population, and use 25% of the world's oil.

And another reason why we dont need the rest of the world trying to catch up, bottom line as BASE said, stop using it....if they lose customers...
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Jan 24, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
Essentially to point out that central North America is rapidly producing more oil and gas,

Which is why they want to sell to Asia, to get at the world price of oil, right now they have to sell it cheaper in the North American oil market, they are losing billions and billions

Funny that what within a decade we completely blew out the notion of peak oil, we are set for centuries...so we really do need to figure out a way to move on

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 24, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Just for clarification,when i say burning firewood is one of the cleaner methods of heating,it is ,when you burn in a modern woodstove with a reburning catalyst system .
It does matter where you live also.JE you live in Fresno,a close friend lived in Selma for years ,i remember him saying that smoke from his woodstove could linger for days,depending on weather systems.He also said smog could form in the valley and take some time to move over the sierra.Is this correct?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 24, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
Which is why they want to sell to Asia,


Yes. This is what its all about. The energy independence thing is a total ruse and red herring.

But to hell with that anyway. China is the elephant in the room somewhat and they will be demanding our coal, oil and gas if they aren't already. The only ones who shouldn't mind giving it to them for peanuts and no strings attached are the multi nationals corporations that call the shots.

Now, if we were really interested in more than just a trickle down of wages and royalties, like a decrease in CO2 production for instance, wouldn't it be wise to index decreases in coal and oil consumption with access to our gas? What - that is just not done?

How about if California really really wants to buy our "green" hydro produced electricity, we first require them to decrease coal fired electricity.

What - we don't do that either?

Of course not. We walked away from Kyoto remember?


Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 24, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
Wilbeer, Fresno has the worst air in the nation.

DMT
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 24, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
Well thanks DMT,I have only been through there a couple times back in the early 80s.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 25, 2013 - 08:32am PT
Heres some more hysteria for you.http://ecowatch.org/2013/natural-gas-exports-economy/
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Jan 25, 2013 - 09:07am PT
All boils down to what the cheapest energy source is.

Regarding the LNG and methane, I think if you look at the pollutants from coal and oil and compare it to the ones from LNG you end up putting less into the atmosphere with LNG.

However making gas liquid requires quite a bit of power so you need or should include that in your final calculations. This is why these plants will grab all the IPP power and go green.

http://www.bchydro.com/etc/medialib/internet/documents/planning_regulatory/iep_ltap/2012q2/draft_2012_irp_executive.Par.0001.File.DRAFT_2012_IRP_ExecutiveSummary.pdf
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 25, 2013 - 09:40am PT
Thanks Wilbeer for the edumacation that woodstoves are teh cleanest stuff out there. As Reagan announced and clarified years earlier, "trees are the largest producer of methane in the world". So I suppose if we cut them all down and burn them the world will be a much better place.

As far as your comment:
"i have not seen fracknation,so i cannot comment on Dr Chu"
Fracknation is a movie which has not come out, whereas Dr Chu has been the Secretary of Energy for over 4 years. I have this program on my computer called Google, I use it research things. Click here to learn more. http://bit.ly/JGvtyo

Hope that helps, you can enter "Who is Dr Steven Chu" to get more info.

You might want to clue the EPA in on the point you make on how clean woodstoves are, those idiots have it totally wrong as their chart shows.



Next, increasing the price of oil has been a goal of this administration. Gasoline for autos has doubled in the first 4 years of the Obama administration. However, despite what is noted upthread - this natural gas being fracked isn't so much competing with oil as with coal. The major use is production of electricity. Coal is the leading way we get electrical power and the numbers are shocking and staggering. A quick search of "clean coal" as an energy source should dissuade you that burning coal is a good thing on any level.

So if you want to stop the increased production of natural gas via fracking, have at it. But realize that what you will be getting then in place of natural gas for electricity production, is so much worse. As far as exporting it via liquefaction, have at it I'd say. It will increase the price and help reduce consumption (although the elasticity models of power don't show it to be significant, power is price elastic).

Unless we all go to those beautiful EPA certified clean burning woodstoves and can manage to make all those nasty "methane producing trees" to disappear off the planet.


BTW Wilbeer, the "solution to pollution" comment started out as twisted humor. That it has been advocated by academia now is a scary thought.

Wilbeer said:
"John,firstly,burning firewood is one of the cleaner ways to heat.Yes ,the particulate goes in to the atmosphere,there it combines with a variety of compounds and settles out through gravity,in effect cleaning our atmos phere.The same thing is said of forrest fires.As a geology prof once said"a solution to pollution is dilution".Not only does firewood do that ,it is carbon neutral,burning methane is not."

Oh, as far as your attempt to slam me for being a "republican", I'd rather be a republican than a dumbass any day. I may be a dumbass but sorry to inform you I am not a republican.

I do have a dog in the fight I'll share. I've invested a shitload of money into natural gas related companies and I suggest you look at doing the same. If you are interested in my thoughts on that, I'd be fine with sharing them but the short version is that because natural gas is so damned cheap right now, I've concentrated on companies that have large proven reserves. One hickup in the middle east and gas will go crazy due to speculation. Long term it's a no-brainer winner as well, as natural gas (and again, it's prime use will be electricity production) is one of the healthiest of our energy sources, there will be additional uses found and exploited as time goes on (car and truck conversion, new pipelines installed etc etc) and useage will increase thus driving up prices again. The Obama administration is trying to make coal go away and encourage that it go over to China. Talking long term on Natural Gas, it's a winner. Does fracking suck? Yes. Sorry, it causes environmental issues it really does. We know that. Is it a better choice than coal? Yes. Hands down no question. Dr Chu was a breath of fresh air after 8 years of Bush and an excellent choice by President Obama. With him controlling the game, I don't feel I need to micro manage the issue and that the peoples interest isn't being looked after, and you might consider that idea as well.

In either case, wish you well.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 25, 2013 - 10:11am PT
Damn. I just wrote a tome worthy of a Nobel Prize and my computer just whacked it into oblivion. I hate laptops.

Couchmaster, I know those companies inside out, and I don't have the balls to buy them. The supply end of the equation is going to be pretty cyclic. You can play the cycles, though. PM me is you want to yack about them.

I'm a libertarian Democrat, so don't try talking politics. I'll discuss policy, but not politics, other than to say that most Republicans have some sort of disease. They wash their hair and it always has sh#t in it.

:)
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 25, 2013 - 10:14am PT
Couch,when we say fine particulate matter,Do you know what that is?Do you know what oil or ngas put in the air?Do you know what carbon neutrality means?Please educate me on that.
Particulates from wood burning, are far less toxic than carbon monoxides and unburned petrochemicals left behind from burning fossil fuels,while the fossil fuels have far less particulate in amounts,the matter they do leave behind is far more toxic.There are no perfect fuels and or energies ,but some are much" greener" than others[chemically speaking].
It is somewhat very similar of a discussion between diesel exhaust and gasoline exhaust,yeah the diesel has way more particulate[and looks dirty],but the gasoline exhaust has way more harmful chemicals.
I am sure you can pick this apart to.


And by the way in your previous "movie review" ,i would like to know how saying people against fracking are actually covertly with Putin .You are right ,thats not demonizing anybody.
Where did i say i dont know who Dr, Chu is?From your text,i took it as he had said something in the movie[which i have not seen,and all my previous comments were about the"review" of it]
Do you know where methane from trees comes from?It is not from burning them.
"Solution to Polution is Dilution" was said to me 35 years ago by a then old professor,its hardly new to academia and i believe its origins are from industry.

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