Hydrofracking - are we nuts? (OT)

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golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
Yeah, most third world countries dont use those EPA certified Wood Buring Inserts or Stoves. In fact, most old trailer parks in the USA dont either.
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Jan 24, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
right now, with gas prices in the gutter, drilling has slowed to a crawl in the shale gas plays. Everyone is drilling for oil. The joke is if you hit a gas well you will be fired.

There in lies the rub, the cheaper the fuel the less money we will spend to find better fuels. So in reality, if oil could go really high then we could move on.

This is why building pipelines from the oilsands is not a good idea in the name of moving onto a cleaner alternative.

It would involve fewer regulatory hurdles - after all, they'd simply double an existing pipeline on existing rights of way, and increase the amount of tanker traffic through an already heavily used and regulated waterway.

It still crosses two provinces which makes it a federal gig, so still quite a few hurdles, less than keystone but more than within a single province

I'll say it for the thousandth time. An American uses something like thirty times more resources than your typical third world citizen. So when you talk about our 0.9% population growth, the effect is much higher. We are a little country, 5% of the world's population, and use 25% of the world's oil.

And another reason why we dont need the rest of the world trying to catch up, bottom line as BASE said, stop using it....if they lose customers...
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Jan 24, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
Essentially to point out that central North America is rapidly producing more oil and gas,

Which is why they want to sell to Asia, to get at the world price of oil, right now they have to sell it cheaper in the North American oil market, they are losing billions and billions

Funny that what within a decade we completely blew out the notion of peak oil, we are set for centuries...so we really do need to figure out a way to move on

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 24, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Just for clarification,when i say burning firewood is one of the cleaner methods of heating,it is ,when you burn in a modern woodstove with a reburning catalyst system .
It does matter where you live also.JE you live in Fresno,a close friend lived in Selma for years ,i remember him saying that smoke from his woodstove could linger for days,depending on weather systems.He also said smog could form in the valley and take some time to move over the sierra.Is this correct?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 24, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
Which is why they want to sell to Asia,


Yes. This is what its all about. The energy independence thing is a total ruse and red herring.

But to hell with that anyway. China is the elephant in the room somewhat and they will be demanding our coal, oil and gas if they aren't already. The only ones who shouldn't mind giving it to them for peanuts and no strings attached are the multi nationals corporations that call the shots.

Now, if we were really interested in more than just a trickle down of wages and royalties, like a decrease in CO2 production for instance, wouldn't it be wise to index decreases in coal and oil consumption with access to our gas? What - that is just not done?

How about if California really really wants to buy our "green" hydro produced electricity, we first require them to decrease coal fired electricity.

What - we don't do that either?

Of course not. We walked away from Kyoto remember?


Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 24, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Wilbeer, Fresno has the worst air in the nation.

DMT
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 24, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
Well thanks DMT,I have only been through there a couple times back in the early 80s.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 25, 2013 - 11:32am PT
Heres some more hysteria for you.http://ecowatch.org/2013/natural-gas-exports-economy/
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Jan 25, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
All boils down to what the cheapest energy source is.

Regarding the LNG and methane, I think if you look at the pollutants from coal and oil and compare it to the ones from LNG you end up putting less into the atmosphere with LNG.

However making gas liquid requires quite a bit of power so you need or should include that in your final calculations. This is why these plants will grab all the IPP power and go green.

http://www.bchydro.com/etc/medialib/internet/documents/planning_regulatory/iep_ltap/2012q2/draft_2012_irp_executive.Par.0001.File.DRAFT_2012_IRP_ExecutiveSummary.pdf
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 25, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
Thanks Wilbeer for the edumacation that woodstoves are teh cleanest stuff out there. As Reagan announced and clarified years earlier, "trees are the largest producer of methane in the world". So I suppose if we cut them all down and burn them the world will be a much better place.

As far as your comment:
"i have not seen fracknation,so i cannot comment on Dr Chu"
Fracknation is a movie which has not come out, whereas Dr Chu has been the Secretary of Energy for over 4 years. I have this program on my computer called Google, I use it research things. Click here to learn more. http://bit.ly/JGvtyo

Hope that helps, you can enter "Who is Dr Steven Chu" to get more info.

You might want to clue the EPA in on the point you make on how clean woodstoves are, those idiots have it totally wrong as their chart shows.



Next, increasing the price of oil has been a goal of this administration. Gasoline for autos has doubled in the first 4 years of the Obama administration. However, despite what is noted upthread - this natural gas being fracked isn't so much competing with oil as with coal. The major use is production of electricity. Coal is the leading way we get electrical power and the numbers are shocking and staggering. A quick search of "clean coal" as an energy source should dissuade you that burning coal is a good thing on any level.

So if you want to stop the increased production of natural gas via fracking, have at it. But realize that what you will be getting then in place of natural gas for electricity production, is so much worse. As far as exporting it via liquefaction, have at it I'd say. It will increase the price and help reduce consumption (although the elasticity models of power don't show it to be significant, power is price elastic).

Unless we all go to those beautiful EPA certified clean burning woodstoves and can manage to make all those nasty "methane producing trees" to disappear off the planet.


BTW Wilbeer, the "solution to pollution" comment started out as twisted humor. That it has been advocated by academia now is a scary thought.

Wilbeer said:
"John,firstly,burning firewood is one of the cleaner ways to heat.Yes ,the particulate goes in to the atmosphere,there it combines with a variety of compounds and settles out through gravity,in effect cleaning our atmos phere.The same thing is said of forrest fires.As a geology prof once said"a solution to pollution is dilution".Not only does firewood do that ,it is carbon neutral,burning methane is not."

Oh, as far as your attempt to slam me for being a "republican", I'd rather be a republican than a dumbass any day. I may be a dumbass but sorry to inform you I am not a republican.

I do have a dog in the fight I'll share. I've invested a shitload of money into natural gas related companies and I suggest you look at doing the same. If you are interested in my thoughts on that, I'd be fine with sharing them but the short version is that because natural gas is so damned cheap right now, I've concentrated on companies that have large proven reserves. One hickup in the middle east and gas will go crazy due to speculation. Long term it's a no-brainer winner as well, as natural gas (and again, it's prime use will be electricity production) is one of the healthiest of our energy sources, there will be additional uses found and exploited as time goes on (car and truck conversion, new pipelines installed etc etc) and useage will increase thus driving up prices again. The Obama administration is trying to make coal go away and encourage that it go over to China. Talking long term on Natural Gas, it's a winner. Does fracking suck? Yes. Sorry, it causes environmental issues it really does. We know that. Is it a better choice than coal? Yes. Hands down no question. Dr Chu was a breath of fresh air after 8 years of Bush and an excellent choice by President Obama. With him controlling the game, I don't feel I need to micro manage the issue and that the peoples interest isn't being looked after, and you might consider that idea as well.

In either case, wish you well.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 25, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
Damn. I just wrote a tome worthy of a Nobel Prize and my computer just whacked it into oblivion. I hate laptops.

Couchmaster, I know those companies inside out, and I don't have the balls to buy them. The supply end of the equation is going to be pretty cyclic. You can play the cycles, though. PM me is you want to yack about them.

I'm a libertarian Democrat, so don't try talking politics. I'll discuss policy, but not politics, other than to say that most Republicans have some sort of disease. They wash their hair and it always has sh#t in it.

:)
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 25, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Couch,when we say fine particulate matter,Do you know what that is?Do you know what oil or ngas put in the air?Do you know what carbon neutrality means?Please educate me on that.
Particulates from wood burning, are far less toxic than carbon monoxides and unburned petrochemicals left behind from burning fossil fuels,while the fossil fuels have far less particulate in amounts,the matter they do leave behind is far more toxic.There are no perfect fuels and or energies ,but some are much" greener" than others[chemically speaking].
It is somewhat very similar of a discussion between diesel exhaust and gasoline exhaust,yeah the diesel has way more particulate[and looks dirty],but the gasoline exhaust has way more harmful chemicals.
I am sure you can pick this apart to.


And by the way in your previous "movie review" ,i would like to know how saying people against fracking are actually covertly with Putin .You are right ,thats not demonizing anybody.
Where did i say i dont know who Dr, Chu is?From your text,i took it as he had said something in the movie[which i have not seen,and all my previous comments were about the"review" of it]
Do you know where methane from trees comes from?It is not from burning them.
"Solution to Polution is Dilution" was said to me 35 years ago by a then old professor,its hardly new to academia and i believe its origins are from industry.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 25, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
There is nothing neutral over Carbon. We have to actually remove it from the atmosphere, because we have already crossed at least part of the tipping point by spewing almost all of your oil into the atmosphere already. We are burning coal right and left.

Biofuels or anything you burn is bad. Use natural gas or propane if you can.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 25, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
"There is nothing neutral over carbon"
Base with great respect,How?
Wood ,biofuels,start their life as plants,taking co2 out of the atmosphere ,replenishing o2.Their cycle is just that.There are huge arguments against fossil fuels for this very reason.No fossil fuels can do this,this is the premise of carbon neutrality.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 25, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
It does matter where you live also.JE you live in Fresno,a close friend lived in Selma for years ,i remember him saying that smoke from his woodstove could linger for days,depending on weather systems.He also said smog could form in the valley and take some time to move over the sierra.Is this correct?

DMT answered the question technically accurately, though as someone who spent nine years in the LA area, what constitutes "bad air" and what feels like "bad air" differ. Nonetheless, the San Joaquin Valley is one huge basin with prevailing winds that carry air -- and everything in it -- to the base of the Sierra and Tehachapi mountains. During the winter, a thermal inversion keeps that air stagnant, and particulate matter becomes a real health hazard.

Now as for Selma . . . my wife is from Selma, so I have an extremely high opinion of Selma natives. Your friend must have been outstanding.

John
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 25, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
John,thanks for that. My freind from Selma was Norm Gong Guy,he worked with me for 20+ years.He passed away from pc 4+ years ago.So i too have high regards for Selma. Terence
and yes he was an outstanding person.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 25, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
Biofuels or anything you burn is bad. Use natural gas or propane if you can.

Please explain?
TE
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 25, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
I like Selma too. Raisin capital of the world and some fine Mexican restaurants, if you can successfully negotiate getting across the railroad tracks hahahaha.

Check out Rodolfos... interesting twist on salsa (I think it has applesauce in it)

You eaten there John? I know there are other gooduns there too.

DMT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 25, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
I'll ask my wife if she knew Norman. There was a Gong Guy in her class at Selma High who died in a fire while she was in high school. I wonder if they were related.

I have not eaten at Rodolfo's, DMT, but it's now on my list.

John
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 25, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
John,He would have been 54, as i am,many sisters and brothers,his dad ran a asian food store in Selma.A very humor filled person,a masters in biophysics from the University of Rochester,[what brought him here]with undergraduate studies at Berkeley.A 25 year carpenter and superb craftsman.
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