The Stigma vs. The Regegade

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Messages 1 - 46 of total 46 in this topic
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 7, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
I remember when Todd Skinner first free climbed The Stigma in 1986, an A3 seam at the Cookie. After his free ascent, he renamed the climb The Renegade and rated it 5.13b. It was somewhat of a big deal and perhaps the first 5.13 in the Valley.

But there seemed to be a problem. Skinner had rapped the route and placed four pitons to protect the seam. Not only that, he (gasp) dogged the moves. But he did not TR the route and he climbed it from the ground.

Soon after, Alan Watts repeated the free ascent and placed pro on lead.

A look through the guide shows that Watts was given the FA, and there is no mention of The Renegade.

Why was Skinner fleeced out of his FA? Others had certainly dogged routes in Yosemite and many difficult ascents were "tainted" by pre-placed pro.

Todd is a controversial figure in Yosemite and many have bemoaned the tactics that he used in his free attempts. Still, what's fair is fair--I don't recall any shenanigans employed on The Renegade that weren't up the sleeves of other Valley protagonists.

Odd too is the name of Todd's obit in Rock & Ice, Todd Skinner The Renegade.

So what gives?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 7, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
Short answer is because Skinner didn't climb the entire crack.

Here's how Smoot (Watts's belayer for it recounts it):

Alan's plan was to aid the crack and fix pins before working on it. When we arrived at the base of the crack, I suggested, "Why not at least try it without the pins first?" Alan agreed. He did aid the pitch first, but mostly clean, fiddling with RPs and TCUs along the way to Todd's no-hands stance. Above that, Alan couldn't get nuts or cams to stick in the shallow, flared crack, so he whacked in a couple of pitons, reached the anchor bolt, and rappelled, cleaning his gear as he descended and making up a rack for his free attempts. On his first day's attempts, Alan got about halfway to the stance, cruising the initial 5.12a section but only a few moves beyond. The next day, he ignored The Stigma, and instead did some soloing and bouldering, while I sat at the base of Cookie Cliff guarding my fixed rope from the Valley locals, whom I imagined were lurking nearby, ready to pull it down and defecate on it, or some such idiocy. John Bachar did walk past, pausing briefly to inspect the route, but departed without comment.

Somehow, we recruited two Japanese climbers to belay Alan the next morning, so I could photograph Alan on the route. These two were very excited to meet the very famous Alan Watts, who was apparently a very big celebrity in Japan. Alan made two tries that morning, and I got some good photos, while Alan got a 40-foot whipper after nearly sticking the crux on his second try, then falling off as his non-English-speaking belayer let out slack when Alan wanted him to take it up. We soon said good-bye to our Japanese friends, who apparently did not understand that they were being given the bum's rush. After they departed, Alan took a long rest, then sent the route on his next try. The crux involved torquing up several small, well-spaced pin scars, including a mono-doight twister and one of the most improbable gastons I have ever seen accomplished. Once established on the stance, Alan was ready to call it quits, since that was where Todd had stopped, but since Todd had been criticized for stopping short of the end of the crack, I goaded him into giving the rest of the crack a try. Under such intense peer pressure, and a threat not to lower him off unless he kept climbing, Alan agreed. Of course, there was the matter of protection. Alan didn’t have a hammer and pitons on his rack, but utilizing my fixed rope, he pulled up a few pins and the hammer, then climbed up, whacked in a pin off a 5.12 finger jam, then finished the crack. Unfortunately, the anchor bolt was out of reach from the end of the crack. After a few desperate dynos and falls, I suggested he tie a longer sling on the bolt so it could be clipped from the top of the crack. He yarded up the fixed rope, tied a long sling on the bolt, and on his next try succeeded in completing the crack free.

http://www.climbingwashington.com/features/walkinthepark.htm

To add some visual context, a pic also linked from Jeff's site above, with Watts on the stance with remaining crack above:

all in jim

climber
Apr 7, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
I remember walking up to the cookie when I was about 19 and seeing Todd (belayed by Beth Wald) working on the Renegade. I didn't know any of the rules of climbing and I just thought it was cool that he was trying something so hard that he had to work the moves. I think maybe Alan pushed the route a little higher?

I'm sure there will be posts about what a travesty or something it all was. You can't take away the fact that Todd got it done, and that it opened a door for Alan and others. I imagine that most ascents of the Renegade these days are still accomplished in the style that Todd did it in.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Apr 7, 2011 - 06:34pm PT
good topic k-man,

Never heard much about subsequent ascents. Has it had many?

Todd loved thin crack/seam climbing and he was really good at it.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
He yarded up the fixed rope, tied a long sling on the bolt, and on his next try succeeded in completing the crack free.

This is a bit unclear. Did he do the whole route again free?

I still think it's Rotten Tomatoes. Skinner freed the crack to a no-hands. Watts obviously did not get to a higher stance and quite likely didn't do the entire crack free in one go to the extended sling.



[Dang I wish I could edit that title!]
WBraun

climber
Apr 7, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
I talked to Todd right before he finally did it.

I had just free soloed a few pitches there and was leaving.

He said he was resting and waiting for it to cool down a bit for another attempt.

I looked up at this thing and thought why waste time monkeying around this stupid thing when you can get many high quality pitches in during that time.

But I also know some people like this stuff. Whatever floats your boat.

Nobody climbs this pitch anymore except Kauk.

He trains on it with a top rope. A crucial hold broke off a few winters ago.

It's much harder now.

But .... I do see people practicing clean aid climbing on it at times ......
Alex Baker

climber
Portland
Apr 7, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
Since the hold broke, has it gone free? Also I think now the anchor is where Alan is at in the photo above?
slabbo

Trad climber
fort garland, colo
Apr 7, 2011 - 09:04pm PT
I also talked to Todd quite a bit when he was working this and after he did it. He sure seemed to be working very hard and he was a damn good climber.

If this goes free then the Salathe will for sure
cultureshock

Trad climber
Mountain View
Apr 21, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
I assume the broken hold was in the upper section. It's nails hard. Tiny pin scars with no feet, a huge departure from the first half of the route.

How many people have done this route? Skinner, Watts, Kauk...

There are still bolts in the location shown in the photo, however, there is lower anchor that would be clipped while standing on the last xenolith, IE where the climber is standing in the shot above. The lower anchor has the most recent hardware.

You can set a TR of this by going up the Enigma and rapping around the corner. You will need to clip bolts on the way down as directionals to get far enough left.

 Luke
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Apr 22, 2011 - 01:02am PT
It's partly because Todd used preplaced gear, and partly because Alan climbed higher.
I think they should both be mentioned in the historical credits, with the relevant details.

Smoot's piece suggests the dates were Spring 1985 for Todd's ascent, and August 1985 for Alan's.
Todd's book, "Beyond the Summit", also says Spring 1985.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2011 - 02:24am PT
Thanks Clint.

And Werner, I've been thinking about what you said. Mostly it made me curious about what route(s) I would consider soloing at the Cookie. My list is very short, it could fit on the tip of a pin.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 24, 2011 - 11:16am PT
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 24, 2011 - 11:23am PT
He was using then controversial tactics, and did not exactly have a lot of credibility back then.
Then Watts did it better.

RIP Todd
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2011 - 11:30am PT
Let me get this straight...Climbing to an obvious no-hands rest = contrived.
Preplacing some pro = contrived.

If these statements are true, then there's a lot of routes that still await FFAs.

I'm with Clint, I think both should get credit for the FFA, with Watt's getting credit for the extension. And, as is accepted practice, I think the first section should be named The Renegade.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2011 - 11:35am PT
[lol ...]
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 24, 2011 - 11:43am PT
pulls out every base trick in the devils tool box

Whoa! Great quote Coz.

I was thinking about Todd looking at this thread. The controversy about the style has to be seen in the context of the time, but I can't believe that some of the old-time regulars had a problem with him personally. That man had so much positive energy.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2011 - 11:49am PT
Great context Coz, thanks for that addition.

After so many years, it's good to see that the basic ethics are still in place. While pre-placing pro/pre-inspecting and hang dogging are still fairly common, I know a lot of folks who still hold to the highest standards of trying to get up first try, no falls. To me, that's the mindset that I call "Traditional climbing." This is opposed to the "I'm going to work this thing," which to me is the 'sport' mindset.
slabbo

Trad climber
fort garland, colo
May 24, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
Todd was good guy and for sure liked to get people going....

A second ascent should improve on an f/a, if possible. Look at the Salathe- Todd and Paul used the hanging belay on the Headwall as it had been used for years. Now it's done as one.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
May 24, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
I'd imagine it was also a conundrum for the Valley cognoscenti because both Skinner and Watts were outsiders who embraced euro tactics, I don't think folks wanted to give either of them credit. Todd was kind of a roving hit man looking for hard projects to apply his approach, and he met resistance any number of times. Consider when he was working on City Park at Index up here in the NW, locals actually went out and put axle grease in the crack to deter his attempts.

I don't have all the dates thought out to support hypothesis, and I'm not really trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, but wasn't this the start of the time that deposed the Valley from it's throne as the world's greatest climbing destination? Somewhere in there we went from "French free" being a derogatory comment to the French being possibly the best free climbers in the world.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 24, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
There might have been an important difference between the Euro hard sport climbing that was getting all the press then and the controversial Skinner stuff. The Euro hard climbing was mostly overhanging rock and really steep face climbing. Todd and Alan were also applying those techniques (pre-placed gear, working routes) to cracks and often in trad climbing strongholds.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 24, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
great shot walter
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 24, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
With teen Idol Jason Campbell on the belay...
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
May 24, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
pretty sure first 5.13 in the valley was Phoenix..
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 24, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
iirc, largo's quote (about todd on hades) was, "every base trick in the cheat's repertoire."

that always struck me as a bit over the top, given that hades (like stigma) was an aid route with pro fixed from prior aid ascents.

lots of valley climbs went free only because years of nailing had cleaned the cracks, pinned out the thinnest bits, and sometimes left considerable quantities of fixed iron. yo-yoing was hardly unknown. todd just added hangdogging and an unapologetic attitude.*

jeff smoot is working on a history of the '80s wars. it's not a tale of moral uplift.


*footnote edit: yes, jardine earlier, etc. "unapologetic" was really the key difference.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 24, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
When did Cosmic Debris join the club?
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 24, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
jaybro,

i think debris was 1980? certainly before stigma/renegade. todd originally thought renegade would be 13+. but stounds like it's settled in at the watts grade.

so far as i can tell, the earliest thirteens in us remain phlogiston (cleveland) phoenix (jardine) and grand illusion (yaniro).
slabbo

Trad climber
fort garland, colo
May 24, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
Sh#t- I remember Hades ( 3rd ascent ? ) it sure was not"12C", no way.

I asked Todd about City Park " Did you grease it to keep Watt's away ?"

:NO

" But you would have ????"
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Apr 22, 2012 - 06:00am PT
It's eggs ackly 40 years since we drove old Stigma down.
Old Stigma almost got named Smegma by Dillis, but he was out-voted by the rest of us. By the rest I mean myself, Cowboy Larry, and Richard Fries, an employee of PT&T living in a nice house up the hill from the Village Store. Rich was Cowboy's step-father and a regular guy. The four of us had the gall to claim the first ascent, but for reasons only George Meyers can relate, only Millis and myself were credited in the Yellow Guide, which I no longer own, blast it.
I see the last post here was nearly a year ago.
I see too, that we named it so well that it is ironic. It seems people want to stigmatize the modern "Wyoming cowboy and notorious trickster," and that's no problem for me. My personal stake is low in the "Poker Game of Fame" that climbing FAs has become; it was low in 1972, when the game had only begun. We climbed virtually the whole thing on aid. We got up the thing and linked with Enigma, which was our plan. We felt very good about what we had accomplished. I never gave it a second thought that it was nailed. We were in it to have fun. And we did.
I have misgivings only about the fact that sometime after the climb had been noted in George's guidebook, bolts placed (by Cowboy) had been removed by unknown bolt-removing Valley Christians. No big deal. Millis, Cowboy and I had done what we did and didn't have to pretend we did not care about what some might have taken as a metaphoric slap on the back of the head. What we did care about was that some one might take a grounder.
Make a mess for Werner to clean up. Hurt somebody else, like his belayer.
We knew nobody'd climb it free.
We were worse at predicting the future than we were about free climbing. I never led a 5.10 with any style and that was a JT shortie with a single move. Cowboy, well, I can't say which 5.10s he led over his career, but no more than a handful, I'm almost certain. And Millis, God love him, probably tore up a bunch. But this was in the Bark Ages, when Millis dog, Spats, was still alive.
As I said, I had little to lose, reputation-wise, by aiding the route. Millis woulda told off anyone who criticized him for it. Cowboy would laugh in their faces. I don't think it fair that Cowboy got no love from George, though. I am setting the record straight, is what I'm doing tonight. Cowboy stood up for me in Merced when I married my Yosemite maid and I gotta cut him a huss because of that.

I am amazed how much turdage can originate over such a tiny crack not worth the time of day to anyone other than KLK, who is probably who I think he is. It seems ten times more pointless than the actual climbing to spend more time "in discussion." But I'm clearing some cosmic debris, so lemme be and wasn't that just an awful poem about A. Hondhold? I won't mention the site it lies in, but it was, in the colorful jargon made popular by Seth, "a turd."

In the Mtn Shop there was a bitchen b/w photo, framed and impressively posed of Wayne and Lloyd on the climb, not yet named. It made its way into my brian-brain and sat there until I discussed it with Cowboy. We jammed down to the Cookie and he was driving, so he got to lead. Besides, he owned the rurps. We set up the belay anchor on the folded-out tailgate of his Ford station wagon. He didn't take all that long, half an hour at the most, before he slammed in the bolt at "the stance." I was ready to rock and roll, but he had me lower him and we traded places on the sharp end. He belayed me as I clipped up and cleaned hanging from the upper placements. So it was top-roping. Guilty as charged. We knew we needed more bolts than we had, so we left off for the time being. That single bolt, we figured, would protect the leader on the next excursion, and that would yield a longer first pitch, making it a two-pitch Grade II. I guess Cowboy had work obligations; the next to lead it was Dillis Millis.

He and I went to the old Forresta road in his Olsmopile and he parked right there at the base of the climb. I just sat in the front seat with the passenger door open and used the steering wheel as the anchor. Approaches are to be avoided like rappel descents. This is common sense to de Flames, to Armadilloes, to Stonemasters. So, having exhausted myself tying the knots, I was glad Millis was leading. I figured I was saving myself for the "drilling bit" promised by the crack's fade-out. and Millis' bolt kit was bulging. It wasn't happening, though. Ma Nature took matters into her hands by kicking loose a rockfall from the western end of Elephant Rock. It didn't kill any people, but the carnage in the talus and forest below Elly Rock musta been awful, not to mention the trout probably abandoned Steamboat Pool for a long time. Water from house-sized blocks sloshed onto the road, soaking some cars, but not causing any to crash. The dust cloud rose and crept up the gorge, moving on the breeze. I was blase enough to tie off the lead rope to the door post, pick up Millis' camera, and begin walking up the road to a good vantage point to do my Ansel. Dillis, I don't know, he was cool, but he knew he wasn't going any higher. I think he was standing in his lowest loops. There was some high-falutin' stack job supporting him. He was planning a rurp for the next placement. Eventually, whenever the brouhaha had run its course, we went back to work. He clipped the bolt at the stance and decided to call it a day and we repeated the cleaning procedure Cowboy and I had used.


It was not the best of Millis times, it was not the worst of Millis times

It was really too early for beer, so we got all civic-minded and went to the Schmeglies and wrote out a brief affidavit of having witnessed the rockfall. Then we got the Schlitz, my favorite at the time. And regaled friends and girl friends with macho swagger and total lies. Millis time. Cowabunghole! Kill a keg for Christ's sake.


Then Cowboy and his step-father, Richard, sought me out and said they wanted to go do a climb. Rich had no idea of what to do, so I set him up with a swami and made sure he had solid boots, if not rock boots. Cowboy racked up and we ended up going for it that day. I led the first pitch. Then when I got to the single bolt, looked up at a big knob you could stand on forever; I realized I was not going to commit to the free move from slings, even though there would be several bolts for aid before I got there. I dealt with Cowboy and he said he'd lead the mantel-shelf I wouldn't touch for all the weed in Damnbodia. He also refined the deal by getting me to agree to Richard's cleaning what I had led. But I had to put in the bolts up to the knob. I literally bolted to the finish line, but a broken bit put the kibosh on that, so I got lowered and Richard cleaned up on the yo. He got it done in good time, had a ball with trying not to drop any of the stacks as he cleaned. He spent lots of time with such tasks high off the ground: he was PT&T's trouble-shooter in Yosemite, fixing everything from the lodge switchboard to repeaters on the rim of the Valley, to delivering phone books. Larry went up and, with a fresh bit, drilled again. He made the move from his top loops look so smooth that I kind of hated him, but he was performing for Rich, so I had to smother the envy. I don't know about after that.

But what about after that? But what about after that?
From the LP titled Safe As Milk by Captain Beefheart and the Magic Band



Cowboy led the rest of that pitch but how he managed I'm not sure. It was 40 years ago. I feel he put in a few more bolts, maybe 3. In the above photo it looks like a crack or fold or such is there left of the knob, but we couldn't use it, since we had no bashies, just Kandy Korn,* in the gasic colors of "yellow, orange and white." Whatever. He tied in to the Enigma and I belayed him from the mantel knob. It's such a complicated story, I know, especially for such a silly little climb. There's not much glory in having a stigma attached to your name, when you think of it.

They can trash Todd all they care to, but it's all pretty pointless. I'm delighted to find the thread, though, with links to the other thin cracks mentioned above. And it's good to think Stigma came so very close to icon status, like Phoenix, which looks good for "first Valley 5.13." Thanks for the history lesson everyone who took part in this thread.

What brought me to this Topic was a simple search for the local wunderkind, Jason Campbell. I was trying to find what he's been doing because I came across a profile and short interview with him in the Rocktober 1987 issue of Climbing. Other than this clusterfluck, I have learned nothing.
But I've been reminded yet again that all is vanity.

The Renegade

Here I sit so broken-hearted:
His life is ended, barely started.
Stigma's hard, but he was harder:
Dedicated, full of ardor.
Climbing free what Cowboy started
Was the goal of the departed.

Hasta la vista, you big bumper.
You may be climbing the Gates of Hell, but hang in there, dog.





*Kandy Korn--another Beefheart (Kandy Korn bashies are for psychological pro only and never to be relied upon for aid climbing--we are a responsible, level-headed bunch on the road to Hell--What's up, Todd? See ya sooner than we expect.)
martygarrison

Trad climber
Washington DC
Apr 22, 2012 - 10:24am PT
I looked up at this thing and thought why waste time monkeying around this stupid thing when you can get many high quality pitches in during that time.

Great topic. Werner I aways thought the same thing walking by that thing.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Apr 22, 2012 - 10:59am PT
Trad climbers say the smartest things. Garrison, how about a plaque mounted into a block of granite at the bottom with "Look but don't touch?"
Maybe not. It's not worth it either. You do have to be a sicko to do what Todd did, and I don't mean just the hard climbing. He didn't eggs ackly die trying to send a hardy.

I did not thank the photographers...Smoooooooot, YO!
Walleye, the eyes have it. You da manliest photographer....where we you set up? On an abseil line?
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Apr 22, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
mouse,

Thanks for the stories and names of the original FA - I'll correct the historical record (using actual names).

You mentioned 1972. The big rockfalls from Elephant Rock occurred in 12/??/1970 and 3/4/1971.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1485313&tn=0

Did the FA occur in 1970 or 1971?
Or was it started then and finished the 3rd pitch and finish on Enigma in 1972?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Apr 22, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
Clint,
History's funny in that two people tell it two ways. The best way, absolutely, to get to the bottom of this particular rubble pile would logically be to find Cowboy Larry Moore, who is a victim?acolyte? of the Bhagwhan in the Northwest, who I think passed away. Rich Fries, several years ago, when Betty, Larry's mom, died, told me that Larry was still in the Bog's community.
Barring the likelihood of that possibility, I am going to time-line the ascents. I remember one ascent that I have not recorded, because I thought it unimportant to the story. It occurred in very early 1972 and stands out simply because my left ankle wore a plaster cast as a result of the fall I took on Swan Slab's Lenna's Lieback.
Stand back and let me think. where's my coffee?
It seems I should close this and go look at the rest of the postings and just sketch the time-line. I don't want to lose this part. Schwarzenegger said it best.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Apr 23, 2012 - 01:09am PT
It's much less fuzzy.
The dust cloud of mem has dissipated.

The rockfall witnessed by Millis and Mouse happened in December of 1970 in the mid-morning.
Cowboy Larry Moore and Mouse climbed Stigma, placing a bolt at the stance, prior to the rockfall. It may have been early December or late November when we did that.
The actual date of the rockfall is not listed in the historical rockfall records which I reviewed. However, I am convinced it was shorly after our trip to JT, which was just before Xmas. This was close to the end of the year, between Xmas & Dec. 31. We documented the experience for the NPS, but there is probably no way to unearth that, no dissing the NPS. I called them Schmeglies in the earlier post. It has a better ring to it than other epithets. Stupid bastards lost the paper.
So, let me see........
Oh, yeah. The stuff I just put into the Topic of the Grack Rockfall reminded me that Millis and I witnessed both the rockfall of December and the one occurring in March of 1971. We were in bivouac on Ahwanee Ledge on the Tower's west face. It was heard, not seen, of course. I wakened to the sound, which reached us easily and may have been acoustically enhanced by the Tower's peculiarities. I dunno. Millis would have slept through it, but I had to waken him' too. "Fookin' shite. No te dije!"
My always fluent friend, just kinda looked at me and we knew what it was but found out where later.
So, we have here three ascents by the original staff:
1) Larry Moore and Mouse, fa pitch one, in Nov. 1970.
2) Dennis Miller and Mouse, 2nd ascent, in late Dec. 1970.
3) Larry Moore and Mouse, fa, to the Enigma. 5.8, A3+, exact date not established, but likely 1971, after the second rockfall of March. (Rich Fries never completed this ascent).
Best I can remember.
Some time after the third climb, a gang of us went to the Cookie and had some brews. I drove us in DORF. (search dorf if you haven't met him).
Bob Romanovicz, my wife, Cowboy, a few others. I don't know who led, but
I cleaned the pitch to the stance on Jumars and then we excused ourselves.
Whew.

Note to George Meyers: WTF? Correct our fa information pls if you list it. Larry deserves it and it is the right dope. thank you, old boy.

Renegade? Renagade? Sheeeit.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Apr 23, 2012 - 01:38am PT
mouse,

Thanks for the additional details. So I'm putting 1971 for the FA of all 3 pitches, and including all 4 of the folks you have listed who contributed.
(I'm not strict about restricting names to the people who topped out on the final effort; more into including those who "did the work", and let the FA people decide who is worthy of including in that list).
The later (1972) ascent sounds interesting with the cast, but doesn't count in the FA records since the 3 pitches had already been done. And I would call the 12/2_/1970 climb a 2nd ascent of p1 (vs. a 2nd ascent of the entire 3p climb).

George Meyers has not been working on the guidebook since the 1987 edition; Don Reid and lately others including Ed and myself have been maintaining the records.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 23, 2012 - 02:34am PT
Climbing topic bumped with story of aiding the thing...



Way back in 1981 (give or take a year) a buddy and I decided to practice aid up the Stigma on the Cookie Cliff. Back then you could drive right to the base and anchor to your steering wheel or bumper!

It was rated A2 which seemed easy enough that we wouldn’t need pins. We ro sham bo’ed for the lead which I won.

The higher I got, the harder it got. Nearing the (then higher) anchor I had been using crack-in-ups, hooks, micro-stoppers and it kept getting worse. Something ripped and I was suddenly weightless. The rope caught my leg and flipped me upside down. I could feel more gear ripping giving me one weak shock after another as I rocketed in slow motion downwards. I could see the ground approaching fast. I had time to think “Am I going to actually deck? Is this ‘It’”

Booiiing! A piece finally caught me. I was upside down, and close enough to the ground that one more piece blowing might have sent me to the road.

My partner suddenly lost his appetite for leading. It was up to me to go back up and finish the pitch. This time I brought a hammer but, like a testosterone infected youth, only used it once or twice very lightly. I discovered two disturbing things.

One: The #1 wired Hex, placed sideways between two crack protrusions that held my fall, and that I used to Jumar back to my high point; For some reason I cleaned it when I reached the top of the rope. The rock shattered on both sides of it when I cleaned it. It could have easily failed.

Two: Somewhere above that was a #4 stopper still in the crack but with a broken wire. I cleaned it for a souvenir. Eerily, part of the #4 stamp had worn off so that only the shape of a crucifix was visible. At the time, it felt like an omen.

Anyway, I finally got the pitch but it was dark by the time it came for my second to clean. It was threatening to rain with heavy mist coming down. We didn’t have a headlamp so I tore the rear view mirror off my Volkswagen bug and turned on the headlights. I reflected the headlights up on the wall so my partner could see!

Years later I had a very powerful vivid dream harkening back to the accident. In the dream, I took the exact same fall from the exact same perspective but this time I hit the ground. I was stunned and managed to crawl into the passenger seat of my car before my world contracted around me and I knew I was going to die. The world faded around me and I turned within, but an amazing conscious divine light dawned within me. I merged with it and began to expand in all directions. I was expanding, merged with that light outside the boundaries of my body and beyond, beyond, beyond. It was total ecstasy. So much so, that self-consciousness of the experience arose and that brought me back to the waking state.

Peace

Karl
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Apr 23, 2012 - 09:28am PT
I looked up at this thing and thought why waste time monkeying around this stupid thing when you can get many high quality pitches in during that time.

Great topic. Werner I aways thought the same thing walking by that thing.

Yeah, I think the same thoughts walking by a lot of different things these days.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Apr 23, 2012 - 10:31am PT
Karl Gaga, I read you. But WTF, Alan Watts got the FA, so what in peaceful bliss would one expect? I know, some other Watts. Watt the Dimbulb. The beautiful Watt Avenue Bridge in Sac where I roamed the American River and raided Indian burial grounds with the other kids for the beads.
It just goes to show, the alpine start generally works in your favor. Sounds like it was the standard coffee shop then the rack then the climb start. I never liked them but love to say I told you so.
It was on top of the Salathe that I came that close, upside down, less than a foot from the ledge where Doug Ross was anchored. It was in March 1974. The storm collapsed that morning, day 6, and we had just got through the penultimate pitch, the one Peter Haan led f*#king on-sight, solo. It was pass the pitons, please, dire wet conditions, which made Doug forget the free climbing. I had the entire rack, less the single tied-off LA for pro, and that's why I went topsy. It was wet and my foot just slid as I stepped right. But good lord above, your fall was nasty! It's fortunate your VW didn't have to suffer by a roofer.
"He and I...parked right there at the base of the climb. I just sat in the front seat with the passenger door open and used the steering wheel as an anchor."
I truly hate the automobile, but loved my Econoline, the DORF. The old road to Forresta was a big part of my younger days, as our scoutmaster's family had and still have a cabin up there. We hiked down the road to swimming holes at Cascades and Steamboat. Right past our future. It is a good thing the road is closed by divine fiat. No more fiats, VWs or DORFs allowed. And all that rockfall noted above and in other threads, I'm totally sure it's due to the vibrations of large vehicular movement and if not that, I'm willing to go with Terries and Firmies.
Having your second chance is such a blessing. I am so happy you can still remain faithful to the bitch goddess of climbing.
Tafadhali (whichever language it is, it means what you seek),
Mouse
Tioga Resident, Merced
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 23, 2012 - 11:13am PT
mouse brings up an interesting conundrum, and Clint hits it home with an example:

how are the conflicting claims of FA parties resolved? as time passes, the last public words in the journals or around the campfires get passed into the guidebook appendices... only to resurface as those guidebooks get updated, usually at the initiation of a request for more information.

these conflicting claims resurface, and essentially it is the call of the guidebook editors to decide history.

many of the conflicts seem so very minor to the majority of people, but are often intensely debated among the few. it is essentially writing in or our someone's perceived legacy to climbing. human "memory" being what it is, the collective recollection of the community of then active climbers may be a poor, albeit only, means of deciding the claims, with the generally better told story carrying the consensus.

klk may have an opinion here as a professional, but it is a lot of responsibility to put on the guidebook, though taking up such a task probably implicitly requires such a commitment.

and then there is the issue about "who cares, anyway?" one could argue that guidebooks are so full of consequential errors that inconsequential errors, like who did the FA, or even that of the order of names should be on an FA, are irrelevant. one could also argue that the guidebooks should be as factual as possible.

my question to you all: how should these debates be resolved?

guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Apr 23, 2012 - 11:17am PT
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 23, 2012 - 11:21am PT
guidebook editors as boxing impressarios?
tom Carter

Social climber
Apr 23, 2012 - 11:33am PT
I had heard the tales of the rockfall from Dennis. As I remember he said the same about the water reaching the road. Of course later.... Waves dashed him while on the lead!

Cool participation!
phylp

Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
Apr 23, 2012 - 11:38am PT
Great story telling, Mouse.

BTW, I know this is off-topic, but I love your "Mouse" handle because it reminds me of the wonderful character Raymond "Mouse" Alexander from Walter Moseley's Easy Rawlins series. Mouse is often described as the most deadliest man in L.A., mercurial of temper, charming, catnip to the ladies, a professional thief, and a stone-cold murderer.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 24, 2012 - 12:07am PT
Or, Phyl, what about Lev Mishkin from The Idiot? His name means lion mouse, sorta. My favorite literary mouse.... Except of course for Mighty Mouse.

I dunno Ed, you might look good in a Don King 'do...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 24, 2012 - 12:56am PT
I'm sure it's a perfect route for Mr. Thin Vertical Kauk

I truly hate the automobile, but loved my Econoline, the DORF

DORF was the name of my Haulbag. Maybe all of them

Peace

Karl
mooch

Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
Apr 24, 2012 - 02:15am PT
If I'm late charging in, bust my chops (I don't have time to read all the vomit) but....

Stigma isn't just the lower crack seam that leads to the present day anchors but also the A3 arching seam above as well. How can a route be renamed when it wasn't freed in its entirety?!?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Apr 24, 2012 - 03:02am PT
More questions?
It's an enigma how such an insignificant, really, climb can generate so much discussion. Our sole occupation was to practice aid climbing technique (and to see if we could find our way into the new guide, certainly). Honestly, I speak for myself, since I'm the last of the crew, barring Cowboy's appearing in our midst, I never considered it would be freed. We have lots and lots of climbs for this usage, practice aid. But thin cracks like this, so close to the perfect approach, it's noobie kindergarten.
I wish this crap could have been a-Voided (snerf-snerf). But we are having fun unraveling the details. No such thing as too much fun.
I only came to this topic because I was searching for the current doings of Jason Campbell.

Jaybro, I consider Mighty Mouse to have been not so much a literary character but more of an operatic character. He was a baritone, I think. I used to enjoy his saving the day. A flying Werner Braun. Did I blow your secret, W? My bad.

"edit"---Endit and let's go climb Enigma. Now that's worth repeating.

Endit and go climb Enigma.
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