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Ferretlegger
Trad climber
san Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 14, 2011 - 07:55pm PT
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Lately I have been practicing solo aid climbing with an eye to something big. I have been using a Grigri as a belay device when leading solo, with backup knots to a separate beefy locking carabiner. Although that seems to work well, I am always happy to hear some thoughts on solo belay systems.
My current issue, however, is rappelling the haul rope after leading an aid pitch solo. I have been rapping since the 1960's and feel "comfortable" with it in general (does any experienced climber actually LIKE it?). I have seen that many soloists seem to use the Grigri to rap back to the anchor before cleaning the pitch. I can see many reasons this would be a good way to do it, not the least is being able to let go of the rope to start jugging or swinging in a traversing or overhanging belay situation.
The last pitch I led, I was playing around with this technique, and found some difficulties. When rappelling, I generally like to have some sort of a backup. In the past, a prussic knot did the trick, but lately I have been using a Petzl Shunt. THis works well with a conventional rap setup, using an ATC, for example, as there is one hand for the brake and the other can manage the backup device. However, with a Grigri, this seems not so easy. I was using one hand to manage the rope below me, and the other to control the descent with the Grigri lever. No third hand available for a backup. On very steep, scary rappels, a backup would be nice, even if just for the psychological effect.
So I pose the question: How DO soloists on steep routes descend to the belay after leading the pitch? I assume they do use the Grigris, but if so, are there any tricks or tips that might help? I am sure with more practice it will go faster and smoother, but a rappel is no place to screw up, so some comments would be welcomed.Any thoughts about both technique with a Grigri and ideas on making a solo aid rappel safer would be appreciated. And believe it or not, I do know that "I'm gunna die". I would prefer it not be in a rappelling accident. That would be profoundly humiliating...
Thanks,
Michael
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Burt
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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Mar 14, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
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I use the gri gri to rap with. I lead the pitch (i use the silent partner and love it) hit the anchor and rap the haul line in the gri gri. I don't do the rap and clean method too often, it takes a lot of time and if the pitch is steep or traversing it is a nightmare. This is my method, works just fine, once you get it down it goes fast. The silent partner took a while to get used to. Now I have it down pretty good, and don't have may hickups with it. It free climbs awesome, and is pretty simple. The soloist sucks wanker man don't get it. Many falls soloing can end in a tumble or upside down (aid climbing exp) and then you are going to your knot. The gri gri unmod works great but sucks for free climbing and mod works but has some issues.
Kurtburt
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squatch
Boulder climber
santa cruz, CA
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Mar 14, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
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i do the same system as you have described. grigri to lead with backup knots and rap to the anchor with it too.
I back up my grigri with... my grigri.
thats why i use it 'cause it's auto locking.
cheers!
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Mar 14, 2011 - 09:09pm PT
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I've found that the grigri burns the rope pretty bad when rapping- crispy sheath.
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squatch
Boulder climber
santa cruz, CA
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Mar 14, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
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oh yeah! go slow.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 14, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
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I rap with the Grigri pretty much all the time, the most recent time being down all of El Cap from Thanksgiving Ledge via Lurking Fear, plus about 250 lbs of piggage from both me and my partner.
Grigri only, no separate backup. Yes, there is definite potential to glaze the rope sheath, so take your time, especially when rapping with pigs.
Remember the Grigri is designed for 10-11mm ropes, so if you are rapping a skinnier haul line, you'd best be very careful.
Grigri rappelling takes a steady hand to prevent a herky-jerky rappel. You need to use your wrist as sort of a cam to fine tune the angle of the handle. It is not the best device for this, but it works. I think a Petzl Shunt and a Trango Jaws-like device, which is an ATC with a V-slot on the brake side to better control friction, would be a better choice. But I don't own either of those devices, and the Grigri works fine. For me.
DFU.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Mar 14, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
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A metallurgist could answer this better, but I believe one issue with the Gri Gri for rappelling is that steel in the breaking mechanism does not dissipate heat as well as traditional aluminum rap devices.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Mar 14, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
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sucks.
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squatch
Boulder climber
santa cruz, CA
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Mar 14, 2011 - 09:48pm PT
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their is not much info from petzl about rapping with the grigri but i did find this regarding its use for rappelling:
The GRIGRI 2 has a new design that allows excellent control during the descent. One hand holds the rope and the other uses the handle to unlock the cam. The patented handle design allows a very gradual release of the rope. In combination with the strong braking action of the cam, it gives a great feeling of control when lowering a partner or rappelling.
I've also read that it is not recommended to rappel more then 50 feet at a time because of the greater heat that it generates then a regular belay device. And i know that this is directly related to the use of steel as the fricion surface rather than aluminum
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D'Wolf
climber
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Mar 14, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
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Gotta go with Coz on this one, with one small caveat. I rap with an ATC with an autoblock back-up; I do not rap with my Gri.
The original Gri is designed for 10-11mm DYNAMIC ropes only. A lot of us (most?) use smaller STATIC lines (9mm) to haul; that's a recipe for death if using a Gri. It will work, but Petzl advises against it for a reason: it doesn't always work. Failures on DYNAMIC ropes SMALLER than 10mm and STATIC ropes LARGER than 10mm have been seen in their testing (or so I'm told); hence, the warning by Petzl. Put the two together (e.g. 9mm static rope) and you're just asking for the reaper to pay you a visit. Maybe you'll get lucky, maybe you won't.
As for the small caveat: rapping with a gri is really no different than rapping with an ATC; similar to a fixed pulley vs a movable pulley: you've simply moved the force from the top of the rope to the bottom, so-to-speak. The rope moves through the device in the same manner and is stopped in the same manner.
Still, for the reasons previously stated (plus Pete's "herky-jerky" observation), I don't like rapping with it.
Just one man's opinion.
Thom
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 14, 2011 - 10:12pm PT
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Just see ...
Everyone has their own rappelling device preferences.
Yabo would only use his bare hands and batman down hand over hand from the overhanging anchors on enema crack.
That was a real man task. Modern climbers can't accomplish these feats anymore.
They need pussy rappelling devices .....
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squatch
Boulder climber
santa cruz, CA
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Mar 14, 2011 - 10:13pm PT
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Thom, good points!
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Mar 14, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
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Good one Werner. I knew an outdoor educator that would bring his students out and simply use thick leather gloves to belay his students on a top rope.
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pleasantOs
Trad climber
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Mar 14, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
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i prefer to grow a sizeable amount of chest and back hair first, then go out on a nice, hot afternoon and dulfersitz (sp?) face-forward, aussie-style!
ps-don't forget to let the lady know beforehand lest she gets upset when ye return from a day's outing too late!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Mar 14, 2011 - 11:06pm PT
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I don't have any great concern about using a Gri-gri as a rap device, having said that, an old timer like you should have a few ovals laying around for a good ol biner brake. That way you can have a rap system you know and like and also have your back up prussic.
Coz, how is rappelling with a gri-gri different from lowering someone off a sport anchor at the end of a pitch with a gri-gri?
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Mittens
climber
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Mar 14, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
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Can you use a GriGri for lead belaying?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 14, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
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For really big fun, try a gri gri on a storm soaked rope.
First comes the "Sizzle", then the dreaded 8 foot drop!
Gripping.
Just got the The mini gri, looks good for the skinny cords.
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Ferretlegger
Trad climber
san Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2011 - 02:33am PT
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Thanks for the replies, folks. I usually use an ATC for normal raps, and have just migrated to a Guide version with better grip/friction on smaller ropes. Has anyone ever used a GriGRI in series with an ATC-like device? The attraction of using a Grigri on a wall is the potential for being able to lock off and use one's hands. The issues with overheating and glazing the rope seem real. I had noticed that the device seemed hotter than I would have expected, but hadn't made the connection. There was a mention of the difference between rapping a dynamic versus a static line and it seems to me that this is likely correct. The energy dissipation in a rappel is in the fibers of the rope as they flex going over the bend at the carabiner, as I understand it. It seems reasonable that a static rope would have different properties.
Basically I am trying to sort out the crap I would take on a wall and simplify as much as possible. Carrying a bunch of descending tools along with a Grigri (and a spare) seemed a bit overkill, but I am now rethinking this. Back in the mid 1970s, my partner and I did the Salathe with a single medium sized haul bag, 5 gallons of water (4.5 days), no ledge, hand made aiders, and some assorted clothes and chow. I doubt the bag was more than 70-80 pounds at the start. I now have a nice ledge, stove, great gear of all sorts, and seem condemned to dragging 20-40 pounds more than BITD. A lot more comfortable and pleasant though.
Anyway, I am still interested in hearing about the management of solo rappelling on steep terrain by those who have already had their "Oh GAWD!!" moments, so I won't have to have them...
Michael
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wallyvirginia
Big Wall climber
Stockholm, Sweden
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Mar 15, 2011 - 03:24am PT
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"lately I have been using a Petzl Shunt. THis works well with a conventional rap setup, using an ATC, for example, as there is one hand for the brake and the other can manage the backup device. However, with a Grigri, this seems not so easy. I was using one hand to manage the rope below me, and the other to control the descent with the Grigri lever. No third hand available for a backup."
I'm a rope access technician and I use the Petzl Shunt as a backup device all the time. Just tie a 4-5 inch lenght of 3 mm nylon cord to the smallest hole on the lever inside the frame of the shunt. Don't form a loop that can get tangled, just tie one end on with a barrel knot.
This way you can just hold the cord between your fingers (and pull the lever of the descender simultaniously) and gently pull the shunt down with you as you descend. If anything happens - you go to fast or loose control - the shunt will lock up and the cord slips out between your fingers.
And by the way, of course you can rappel with a grigri.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Mar 15, 2011 - 04:15am PT
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The first time I rapped onto a wet part of a rope my thoughts were "how the f#ck is there a snake here" but then I noticed the hissing and steam was coming out of the Grigri!
The original Grigri came with a warning not to rap more than 50 metres, the new one doesnīt mention rapping at all but in the techniques part of the Petzl website it is described.
As has been mentioned the problem is the material and there are three things that donīt help:-
Stainless steel has a poor conductivity and the heat build up in the very small area where the cam contacts cannot dissipate into the rest fast enough.
Stainless steel has a lower specific heat capacity than aluminium which means for a given energy input the temperature rises higher.
Stainless steel has a low emissivity value and radiates heat poorly so cools worse.
Plenty of interesting stuff about this from the textile industry where they try to keep the spindle temperatures down below 200°C!
There isnīt an easy cure except to add something more conventional above the Grigri when making long raps or with a heavy load.
Jim
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El Bucanero
climber
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Mar 15, 2011 - 07:17am PT
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The last pitch I led, I was playing around with this technique, and found some difficulties. When rappelling, I generally like to have some sort of a backup. In the past, a prussic knot did the trick, but lately I have been using a Petzl Shunt. THis works well with a conventional rap setup, using an ATC, for example, as there is one hand for the brake and the other can manage the backup device. However, with a Grigri, this seems not so easy. I was using one hand to manage the rope below me, and the other to control the descent with the Grigri lever. No third hand available for a backup. On very steep, scary rappels, a backup would be nice, even if just for the psychological effect.
A good way to get past the lack of 3rd hand problem when using gri gri and shunt:
Looking at the shunt, near the carabiner hole there is another samller hole. (ever wondered what it's for?) This hole is for attaching a short piece of cord to. Pulling on this cord allows you to pull the shunt down the rope (instead of having to squeeze the shunt).
So when using a grigri + shunt, one hand to control grigri lever, 2nd hand to control rope AND pull on shunt cord. very easy.
This is how alot of industrial rope access people work. (Except the shunt is on a seperate rope).
Resist the temptation to tie a knot on the end of the shunt cord. It makes it easier to use (esp with gloves), but it makes it more dangerous, ie if you grip it and can't let go, the shunt won't clamp...
Edit: Just realised wallyvirginia answered the same question above. My bad.
BTW wallyvirginia what do you think about the knot on the end of the cord?
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wallyvirginia
Big Wall climber
Stockholm, Sweden
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Mar 15, 2011 - 08:37am PT
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"BTW wallyvirginia what do you think about the knot on the end of the cord?"
You're right. I don't like a knot on the free end of the little pull cord either. It's easier but could go wrong, as you say.
That's just a picture I found on google-images..
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
bay area, ca
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Mar 15, 2011 - 11:09am PT
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Does the cinch have similar issues with heating the sheath of the rope that the grigri does?
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Adamame
climber
Santa Cruz
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Mar 15, 2011 - 11:57am PT
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I have been using the Gri Gri 2 intensively for the last three weeks or so since I purchased it. So far the new Gri Gri has proven to be much better all around then the original. I feel that it gives me more control in rappelling situations with both thin and thick ropes. I haven't rapped on a wet rope yet, so my view could change.
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chez
Social climber
chicago ill
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Mar 15, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
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I rapped with a haul bag in the rain down the east ledges. Would rather of had a atc or even a stitch plate. Very jumpy with a gri gri.
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drunkenmaster
Social climber
santa rosa
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Mar 15, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
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gri gri sucks for anything but top rope or hangdog lead belaying i think. but for that i love it!
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Steve L
Gym climber
SUR
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Mar 15, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
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J-tree, I don't know how much heat needs to be generated before any damage is done to the sheath, but the cinch gets hot on raps too. About the same as a grigri, as far as I've noticed.
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Tez
Mountain climber
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Mar 15, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
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The Grigri does get hot when rapping. I used to worry about this until I did Zodiac a few years ago. At the time, the Huber's were working on freeing that route. They had 600' of rope from the top leading down to an anchor with one intermediate tie in. Their camera man came zipping down this line on a Grigri with a large camera. He was a large guy, so with his gear, he was rapping with about 250 pounds. He stopped at the intermediate anchor only long enough to move the Grigri to the lower part of the rope (carefully with gloves) and then resumed his decent on down. He did over 500 of rapping in less than 5 minutes.
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Steve L
Gym climber
SUR
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Mar 15, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
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Yup, the heat was a wee bit concerning at first, but I figured if there was any likelihood of danger, I would have heard of someone plummeting to their death off of a melted rope by now.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 15, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
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an old timer like you should have a few ovals laying around for a good ol biner brake. That way you can have a rap system you know and like and also have your back up prussic.
I still use that system, particularly if no one else is looking (i.e. when I'm soloing). The Silent Partner is so good for a lead belay, however, that I was compelled to make that concession to modernism.
John
P.S.
Mike,
I'm trying to get back into aid shape during the next few months. Your talk about the Dihedral keeps me going.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 15, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
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Roped solo climbing...
been doing a bit lately.
-Silent partner for belay
-ATC to rap*
-Lefty jug and a GriGri to ascend*
ATC: I will rap with the GriGri if I am not just really climbing but more cleaning. Only because of the easy lock off'ability (not having to rap a tail around my leg).
Maybe I am jus' getting old but I find it harder to rap smoothly on a GriGri and feel (for some unsubstantiated reason?) that I could more easily do something stupid with the Gri lever system than I could with tails out of an ATC.
Lefty jug:
I only say 'Lefty' as a preference for plumb jugging. I carry both and if the pitch leans right a lot I will use the right handed jug when appropriate.
I DO NOT like using a GriGri as a belay device
~~~~~~~~~~
Off topic from belay/rap devices...
I have been finding a short 7mm prussik and bungee cord with the cheap plastic snap ends, very handy for constant upward anchor load from first piece. I don't see any sense in cloving your first piece. That just reduces the dynamics of the rope and essentially restarts the belay chain from the first piece.
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Ferretlegger
Trad climber
san Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2011 - 05:38pm PT
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There are some very good suggestions here. Thanks to everyone. Please keep the ideas coming. I am starting to believe that using an ATC ( the newer Guide version) with an autoblock and a Petzl Shunt with the little tail might be the best and safest way to go. I will probably be on a single 10.5 static line (Bluewater). I have been using a Grigri to belay myself. I have noticed that several of you seem to be big fans of other self belay devices. There seem to be three: The Silent Partner, the Solo-Aid, and the Soloist.
If it is not already beaten to death on another thread, I would very much appreciate hearing opinions on these devices (and the Grigri) as belay devices when solo aid climbing.
Mark,
Susan just had her last chemotherapy on Friday, and has her final CT scan tomorrow. I am pretty sure she will be clear, and now just has to regain her health and strength over the next few months. So we will be free to travel. I am really hoping I can see you in the Valley. Perhaps I can help drag some crap to the base. I will write soon- thanks for the note!
John,
Glad to hear that you are still thinking about a big, bigwall. I have been looking pretty hard at the Muir. The upper part looks gorgeous. If you want to do a Grade V to warm up, let me know. I have ALL the gear (and then some). Good to hear from you!
All the best,
Michael
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 15, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
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I've use a petzl "Stop" for 30 years when rappelling for speed and heavy loads.
ATC is too way homo for me.
With 2 ropes I use figure 8
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bmacd
Social climber
100% Canadian
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Mar 15, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
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just a reminder from another thread that using a steel carabiner for grigri attachement while soloing was a recommendation
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 15, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
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Werner...
I think 'Figure-8' must be a mantra of yours?
How long you held that same piece of hardware now? 25, 30 years?
Now that's getting a value ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~
Rapping is like masturbation:
It does not take much skill
There's many ways to do it and not one is the 'right' way.
The right way is 'If it feels good, do it"
Unlike rappelling when masturbating a good rule is:
"If it feels good, do it. If it feels real good, do it a lot"!
~~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry Werner's 'Homo' comment got me all flushed and glistening LOL!
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Ottawa Doug
Social climber
Ottawa, Canada
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Mar 15, 2011 - 09:42pm PT
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I keep checking in to see what Werner has said, good humour.
Doug : )
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t-bone
climber
Bishop
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Feb 27, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
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Before reading this I thought I was the only one who hates rapping (static lines) with a grigri.
I've found the older grigris are less jerky, but I still get a larger than necessary pucker factor when descending.
The Petzl Stop looks effective but kind of a bulky beast to carry on the harness.
Any better options out there that are small and light? I'm leading with a Silent Partner so some device for rappelling only is ok.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Feb 27, 2014 - 06:44pm PT
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I've bailed many a route with a grigri with haul bags in tow and haven't had an issue with burning my rope sheath, but that's just my own experience so the sample size is a bit too small to make anything of it.
I'm not sure why you would need a backup if you're soloing since the end of the rope is tied to the anchor below you, you're not going to rap off the end of the rope. If you're really concerned with the assisted auto lock feature failing, there's no reason you can't use a loose prussic attached to your leg loop (or belay loop if you're extending the rap device) to manage with your free hand while your other hand manages the handle.
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AlanDoak
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Feb 27, 2014 - 07:22pm PT
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I always thought that the point of a prussik backup was in case you swung and spazzed out letting go of the brake hand, or something along those lines. The assisted arrest function of the gri-gri serves that function, so why back it up? I know that a gri-gri doesn't always catch right away, especially under low/slow loads, but it seems like overkill and a lot of hassle to add more devices to the system. And, the line is fixed at the bottom so you're not going rap off the end. If I'm letting go to clean a stubborn piece, I might wrap the rope around my leg a couple times for extra measure.
I too use a gri-gri to self belay when leading blocks with short fixing, tying backup knots and clipping into them with a locker. The backup knots help prevent the slack that you feed yourself pulling back into the device, will jam into the device if it doesn't catch, and will catch you if the gri-gri/biner gets crossloaded and explodes (probably unlikely). I'm sure the Silent Partner is awesome, but a gri-gri is fine and is what I have.
Never thought of rapping with a pig on a gri-gri. I suppose it feels more right to use an ATC (or equivalent), with 2 biners instead of 1 to add more friction.
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whitemeat
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Feb 27, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
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this thing will not require any hands to work like a prusik so it could back up a gri gri with 2 hands occupied...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Feb 27, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
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What a sweat locking device... 200 to 300 dollars depending on the type. I wonder if you could use it leading...
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Rocky IV
Social climber
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Feb 27, 2014 - 09:40pm PT
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wearing fingerless wall gloves rapping a 9.5 static I have never had any real issues with a gri gri 1. without gloves rapping on a gri can suck, because you really have to control your descent with your brake hand and I've given myself rope burns due to carelessness. The autolocking feature makes it ideal (for me) when rapping with bags or cleaning the odd piece on rappel. I'd never use another device or prussik to back it up, the thing backs itself up.
In fact I don't think I'd ever not use it to rap while soloing... Often on traversing pitches or severely overhanging pitches (think P5 on tangerine trip) when you rap you're 50+ feet away from the anchor. On a gri you just let go and put your jugs on the rope to pull yourself back to the anchor. If you've misjudged the amount you need to lower you quickly release the lever and lower yourself a foot or two. Screwing with loosening and tightening a prussik on a ATC seems like much more of a hassle and has a higher chance of f*#kups.
/end ramble
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose and south lake tahoe, ca
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Feb 27, 2014 - 09:47pm PT
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I have to agree that grigri is an inferior and potentially fatal rappel device.
Why?? This thought has never crossed my mind. I'm curious, why?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
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Also in the video there's a self locking biner that is being used with the device.
That is the same self locking oval biner I use for this application.
It's bomber .....
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Feb 27, 2014 - 11:39pm PT
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If you need the super-heat-dissipating capabilities associated with rapping with large loads, but still like to have a separate backup such as a prussik or shunt, consider one of the smaller four or five bar brake-bar racks. Although bulky, they're not any heavier than the older gri-gri's. As well as their ability to get rit of huge amounts of heat (no rope glazing!), you also have the ability to vary the amount of friction by adding or removing bars, or taking a wrap around the "hyper-bar". This can make for a much less gripping rap with a heavy pig, or a much less frustrating rap on low angled terrain.
K
PS I rap (slowly) with a gri-gri and it's relatives the Rig and I'D on a regular basis and am very comfortable them when used within their design parameters.
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Feb 27, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
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Another device on a similar principle is the Scarab by Conterra. Lower bulk, huge variability in friction, great heat dissipation, very sexy, available in a titanium option for a small king's ransom.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
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Feb 28, 2014 - 12:13am PT
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I use 8 with side ears cause you can control descent , add or take friction,rap on double rope, rap with different size rope or rap with two people on the same device while none of these are possible with anything else
Also, ASAP does not lock right away, generally the caming wheel needs to rotate in reverse direction some distance before it can lock and typically is used with IRATA and rope access people as the second backup during fall.
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Feb 28, 2014 - 12:30am PT
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I've used both for rapping long distances (600+ feet in one shot) , and for lowering heavy loads. The Rig is rated to 200kg (450 lb) for a safe working load, and the I'D is a bit higher at 250kg (550 lb)
Both of them, and the gri-gri work well on decently clean ropes of the intended size. When you start getting into extremely dirty, wet, icy or muddy ropes, these devices get a bit jerky and unnerving. They're still safe if used carefully, just not as smooth and comfortable as something like an ATC type device or a brake bar rack.
I do like the ability to release the handle and simply stop. Some people complain of the gri-gri "releasing" or slipping when only partially loaded. This simply requires the user to maintain tension on it at all times, or switch to an industrial grade device like the Rig or I'D that have a complete lock function.
Majid - There are lots of devices that can be used to rap with two people at once including all of the ones I listed in my last few posts. Rescue 8's are great at dissipating heat, but nasty for twisting your ropes compared to in-line devices like racks or belay plates (ATC style devices)
K
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