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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta J-Tree
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 15, 2006 - 05:17pm PT
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I was in J-tree recently for a period knott exceeding the 14 day limit.
During this time it was astonishing how many times we saw the Death Belay™ in action:
Note that there is a bombproof anchor to be had right above the crack,
and yet at least 6 times out of 10 the leader inexplicably walks way the fuçk over
to the rap station to belay. It truly boggles the mind!
Usually someone at camp would announce "Death Belay!!", and we would all gather.
As the follower removed the last piece, and on the count of three, we would all
yell "DEEEEAAAATTHH BEELLLAAAAAY!! at the top of our lungs.
I wonder if they ever got it (or cared).
Here the follower has just removed the one thing keeping him from a 35-foot pendulum:
Until now, this routine has provided an inordinate amount of entertainment.
It's all fun and games until someone actually gets hurt.
If a follower/toproper gets injured, the responsibility lies 100% on the leader––who should fuçking know better.
Get your shít together people––before you kill someone!!
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TimM
Trad climber
Indian Wells, CA
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Jan 15, 2006 - 05:29pm PT
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Furthermore, it looks to me like in the 2nd photo that our fearless leader is anchored into only 1 of the 2 bolts at the rap station.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta J-Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2006 - 05:31pm PT
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OMG you're right! Holy shit!! WTF is with these clowns?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2006 - 05:33pm PT
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Ah man that's nothing, no big, it's low angle, not much can happen.
I'll take ya out for a wild ride, any takers? hehehehe
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta J-Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2006 - 05:38pm PT
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Werner I would love to go for a ride!!
We could do a Photo/Video Report™...
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hobo
Trad climber
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Jan 15, 2006 - 05:47pm PT
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Although definitely not the smartest thing to do, 99 percent of the time, these people will get away with these things, just fine. And if they take the ride, they will know better than us what to do next time.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jan 15, 2006 - 05:47pm PT
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Note the "Crown of Idiocy" worn by "leader".
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2006 - 05:48pm PT
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Anytime Dave, show up and we'll ride the bull.
But, on a serious note I agree with your analysis of the leader not using a directional for the second in the photo.
It's always a good idea to do that ...........
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta J-Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2006 - 05:54pm PT
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Cool! I'll take you up on it.
At the very least, why doesn't the leader put a quick cam in the horizontal above
the line with a long sling as a directional? How long could that possibly take? 20 seconds?
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dustymirror
Social climber
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Jan 15, 2006 - 07:02pm PT
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That is knott a death belay- Come on, show us the Hardman vs. Yucca pictures.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 15, 2006 - 07:31pm PT
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Hobo said: "And if they take the ride, they will know better than us what to do next time."
Somehow....I don't think they will.....
I was walking by once and saw the guy anchored at the rap and was like "mmmm....ooookay." I recall taking a moment to send a "thanks" out to all those who have shown me the way so far, that I would know better. Of course, I couldn't help but dawdle....rubbernecker that I am.
Why the second didn't notice it while the leader was passing up the anchor spot in the first place and say something then.....well, guess it just did not occur to him, until he found himself about to clean that top piece!
Anyway, I did get to see a little bit of drama, as he yells across "WTF,man!" A bit of heat develops in the discussion....and the leader sets up some sort of adjustable knot so he can traverse to the left and slam in a directional.
At that point, I realized that....it's not polite to stare....and scurried away.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Jan 15, 2006 - 07:35pm PT
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Love it, Knott. Thanks.
I would read someone the riot act for that if I had to follow it - but I am also deathly afraid of long pendulum TR falls for some reason. I once back lead an entire roof because my partner didn't protect the crux to the anchor and I was looking at a pendulum that was going to do more than hurt.
And if you've ever climbed with me in that situation where it's unavoidable, I will fight you for the lead. :) It's something about seeing exactly what will happen since the rope's ahead of you.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jan 15, 2006 - 07:51pm PT
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That climb should go all the way to the top anyway. The little slab section between the rings and the big corridor is kind of fun. There's a groove on top that takes good pro for an anchor. You could simul-rappel off opposite sides and forget about rings then, at least for that climb.
There are some old unrepaired bolt choppings in the big split, for some old routes that went across the split to the bigger rock. Hhow come those were removed and not replaced?
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jan 15, 2006 - 07:56pm PT
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Why are they using ropes on it? That's certain Death!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jan 15, 2006 - 08:00pm PT
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Maculated, then you must never lead or follow the traversing pitch of the OR at Whitesides in NC, LOL. 165 feet of easy traverse, but not a whole lot of pro, and not the greatest hands.
Don't know why you'd rather lead than follow though, wouldn't you rather face where you're going, as opposed to heading there backwards? Traversing falls are leader falls no matter who led.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta J-Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2006 - 08:07pm PT
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Dustymirror –– I will post the yucca pix as soon as I can get 'em scanned...
Here's a question for you guys:
What's worse: leading or following Sidewinder?
Has any leader ever fallen while "walking the plank"?
How about a follower?
Please list any injury details.
If any pants were shat in, please skip the details.
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steelmnkey
climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jan 15, 2006 - 08:16pm PT
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"Note the 'Crown of Idiocy' worn by 'leader'."
Also known as the Reservoir Tip.
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dustymirror
Social climber
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Jan 15, 2006 - 08:40pm PT
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Couldn't tell if i shat my pants following Sidewinder- i was too afraid to look down! But i did slip on something "walking the plank"...
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Murf
climber
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Jan 15, 2006 - 08:59pm PT
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One of my original partners fell on Sidewinder just before the flake. Took a fantastic swing which ended over in the overhung portion. Sucked it up and finished it - No injuries, no underwear change.
As I was just a beginner at the time, it had the net effect of keeping me from leading it for a long time.
As for leading vs. following it, leading it is tougher. After unclipping the bolt, the rail gets progressively smaller.
Murf
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 15, 2006 - 09:34pm PT
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The lady that was hurt is a friend of mine. I will get a accident report. I was over on Double Cross. Being in the same club I let people know if they are doing anything unsafe.
The woman that was hurt is in her 60's and is the nicest person. She was guided up the Tangerine Trip last fall in 6 days. Probally the oldest woman to ever get up El Cap.
Please Pray for her.
Thanks
Batten
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WoodyS
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jan 15, 2006 - 09:38pm PT
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There's no excuse for a second to be in danger on Sidewinder. Both times I've led it, I put in a point and a long sling where you go to the top. I clip a second sling from the first sling to my waist. When I get to the top, I pull the first up with the second sling and unclip leaving the first sling and pro in. I then walk over a ways, set up the belay in a manner that allows me to walk along above the second as he makes the traverse. The second has an upper all the way.
I guess some of you kids need an old timer around to show you how to do it right.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 15, 2006 - 10:04pm PT
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Nice photojournalism, knotty! Breathtaking, hysterical and terrifying at the same time.
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Karen
Trad climber
Good question?
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Jan 16, 2006 - 12:26am PT
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locker-no Woody is referring to Sidewinder-remember the day he lead me up it? I'm sure you heard me clear over where you and Tan were climbing!!!
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10b4me
Trad climber
On that V2 problem at the Happies
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Jan 16, 2006 - 12:48am PT
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hmm!! isn't this the second accident involving the *SCMA in a little over two months Jeff?
I've lead and followed TJ many times. have always used the horizontal to place an anchor. people, the crack is right in front of you.
the leader obviously had pro with him during the climb, so it's not like he couldn't have built an anchor. unless he ran out.
*formerly known as the Rock Climbing Section of the Sierra Club
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 16, 2006 - 12:50am PT
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Nobody has to get the go from me? I was not even aware they were doing the route.
But if I did happen to walk by and see a dangerous setup I would have said something.
I do not even know what happened in this accident.
The Swift accident was written up in our newsletter cliff notes.
Batten
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 16, 2006 - 01:03am PT
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The SCMA climber that fell on the swift was very experienced.
It was an accident that anyone of us could have had.
The climber fell, and his first peace pulled out.
Landed hard.
Really no climber error, statistics.
I do not know about Toe Jam.
Batten
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 16, 2006 - 01:06am PT
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Leading Sidewinder is scarey. I always wondered what would happen if you whipped. I just hate traverses that threaten to throw you over backwards. I was at the wobbliest section once, the wind was ripping, and then a jet suddenly buzzed Steve's canyon so close it felt like it would blow me off the rock.
I refrain from placing a piece at the end of the the traverse for the sake of the second, but don't like the idea of making the fall totally swingless for the second. Where would the fun be in that? Just a little swing is good.
Peace
Karl
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Mike Dahlquist
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 16, 2006 - 01:18am PT
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Better even than the Toe Jam Death Belay is the Toe Jam Top Rope® from the bolts. In this daring maneuver, the second throws a rope back down after cleaning ALL the gear to noobs back at the base of the climb. When I saw this in action, I politely told the three noobs waiting their turn that this set up was probably not safe and asked if they had any idea what would happen if they fell. None of them had ever climbed outdoors before and thought they were OK on top rope. Two sketched off when they couldn't pull the first crack move, and after the third barely made it up, shaking the whole way, I was serenaded by the "experienced" climbers up top at the bolts to jeers of "stop scaring people, you're an idiot" and "those climbers down there don't know anything." Wonder if these guys are still alive...
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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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Jan 16, 2006 - 02:10am PT
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There is another alternative to the death belay which is a compromise... albeit a less desireable one that just buidling and anchor at the top of the route... a few times when most of the placements were taken from parties climbing dandelion or other routes from that side, you can tie off both of those bolts and run the rope through a deep water chute about 2 feet to the climbers left of the top out of Toe Jam. Then you need to sit down with your butt inside the chute and the rope tight inside the chute as well. This works really well and is PRETTY SAFE (+)(tm).
Have fun..
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 16, 2006 - 09:35am PT
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Geez! There's a huge mushroom just above the horizontal. If all the placements are taken, (unlikely) just tie it off.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 16, 2006 - 10:03am PT
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The woman that was hurt is in her 60's and is the nicest person. She was guided up the Tangerine Trip last fall in 6 days. Probally the oldest woman to ever get up El Cap.
Please Pray for her.
It seems as though she drove herself home from the hospital, Juan.
The person that was leading when she fell is very upset about it. He has 20+ years leading gear routes, has helped put up hard backcountry routes, etc. Just shows that none of us are immune to brainfarts. He's a very good climber, I wouldn't hesitate to second him.
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wildone
climber
right near the beach, boyeee (lord have mercy)
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Jan 16, 2006 - 12:34pm PT
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HAAA! Juan, I humped gear for that run up TT, in exchange for a whole mess of nuts. (and not the kind you eat, or the kind you get other people to eat either)
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hobo
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2006 - 12:51pm PT
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Ben, did Scott guide her?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 16, 2006 - 01:05pm PT
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Gary,
Her car was left at Intersection Rock?
Everyone said it was an Ambulance Ride?
Juan
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 16, 2006 - 01:35pm PT
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Hardman,
Can I use that photo for a webpage I am building.
Stupid things climbers do.
Juanito
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jan 16, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
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Devil's advocate moment...
If someone was solid would you think that they were irresponsible for soloing Toe Jam? What about if someone is solid enough to solo it, but is cleaning their freind's lead? When I'm the leader w/ the solid enough to solo follower whose many, many grades below their limit on the follow, they often get (and prefer to get, in the name of climbing more) the "don't fall" pro for traverses.
As a bit of an aside, I fell once when following the low angle traverse to the anchor on another climb and my belly stuck to the rock right were I fell. I didn't even swing.
Still...
I too have seen the scariest TR's ever in Joshua Tree.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Jan 16, 2006 - 02:02pm PT
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Does that count as a fall, or were you just smearing creatively?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 16, 2006 - 02:05pm PT
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Hmm. In response to Melissa's question, where the follower is solid enough to solo, and is cleaning for a less skilled leader, I would certainly expect that leader to still lead with the second climber in mind. ie, a directional. But, I suppose that scenario of leaving a runout for the follower is possible (since you do it.)
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TimM
Trad climber
Indian Wells, CA
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Jan 16, 2006 - 02:06pm PT
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Melissa said:
"I fell once when following the low angle traverse to the anchor on another climb and my belly stuck to the rock right were I fell."
You must have some belly :-)
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta J-Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2006 - 02:35pm PT
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Juanito wrote:
Hardman,
Can I use that photo for a webpage I am building.
Sure. Just put the following below the pic:
© 2005 Hardman Knott
You might also want to link to this thread...
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mikael
Trad climber
Sunnyvale, CA
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Jan 16, 2006 - 02:36pm PT
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Knott,
For the n00bs like me in the audience:
You say that there is a bomber anchor at the top of the crack for a belay.
If you belay there, how do you get to the rap anchors?
Do make the traverse a second pitch or do you walk along the ledge unprotected?
What's wrong with throwing a directional in at the top of the crack instead of belaying from there. Too much force multiplication from the 90ish degree turn?
thanks
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chiranjeeb
climber
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Jan 16, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
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Hi Mikael,
I am a complete noobie (toe jam was my first 5.7 lead) and I just set up anchor above the crack. You can safely walk unroped to the rap anchor ---no worse than 3rd class. When my more experienced partner came up, she pointed out that I could have used the rap anchors and put in a directional ---that didn't really occur to me.
Also even if I have bomber pro, I hate to weight it ---just in case it fails.
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trapeze artemis
climber
Surf City
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Jan 16, 2006 - 03:21pm PT
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Melissa said:
"I fell once when following the low angle traverse to the anchor on another climb and my belly stuck to the rock right were I fell."
Sounds to me like you were doing the "Beached Whale" manuever, this is a move typical to Joshua tree topouts and is part of every locals repertoire........along with the "Butt Scootch" (for descents), the "Dolphin kicking" manuever and the "Humping Chossy Rock Madly" move.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 16, 2006 - 03:29pm PT
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What's wrong with throwing a directional in at the top of the crack instead of belaying from there. Too much force multiplication from the 90ish degree turn?
Because the crux is the move AFTER the top piece as shown in the photo. Unless you meant a directional in the Horizontal above the ledge.
Also it is bad form to tie up a common rap anchor shared by several climbs in a popular and always overcrowded area.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jan 16, 2006 - 03:34pm PT
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...if only.
I was actually standing on a bolt wimpering trying to hold off the giant wall slapper that I thought I was about to take.
I stepped up into the move, lost my balance, my feet fully peeled, and I let loose an ugly scream. Only, instead of slapping across the rock like I thought I would, I just stayed plastered to the wall by the last bolt by the friction of my body.
I'm versed in the beached whale manoevre though. It's especially humiliating when I'm following and someone is looking down on me from a commodious ledge as I roll onto it and lay panting on my stomach, scraping my way to my knees, clutching madly for holds to help hoist myself, and only acting normal again when I'm clipped into the anchor. Low dignity moments, those.
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chiranjeeb
climber
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Jan 16, 2006 - 04:17pm PT
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"Chiranjeeb- IF you have bomber gear and are afraid to weight it, is it really bomber then? "
Good point :). I don't really know the answer. I have had my gear criticized by more experienced people and their opinion is that my gear placement skills are fine. Still, I am very risk averse ----I would rather not fall/weight on my gear early in my career.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jan 16, 2006 - 04:24pm PT
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Kristen -- since I did lead that, and you were the follower, do you remember where I set up anchor? Looking at the picture I have no recollection. I remember rappeling off and I'm fairly certain that is NOT where I set up belay, but what's your recollection of where it was -- did I set up at the horizontal or go to the top?
Ed
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jan 16, 2006 - 04:42pm PT
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"SEEK QUALIFIED INSTRUCTION BEFORE YOU DO[sic] DIE!"
Presumably because it is harder to find after.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 16, 2006 - 05:13pm PT
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Double Cross seems like a fairly easy free solo, I kind of forget is the descent off the Old Woman down toe jam?
Thanks
Juan
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta J-Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2006 - 05:16pm PT
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Toe Jam indeed seems to be the preferred descent for free-soloists.
Edit: But down-climbing Double Cross would seem more secure, would it knott?
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ikellen
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 16, 2006 - 08:56pm PT
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Hardman Knott-
I am so glad I am not the only person that sees this happen way too much. The ironic part of all of this is that in the latest Vogel/Falcon guide, it is repeated many times that people have gotten hurt by using the death belay. I'm sure all these gumbies are reading the guidebook like the bible - why do they somehow overlook this?
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jan 16, 2006 - 09:05pm PT
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jkellen - maybe because they missed it?
Here is what I see:
1230 TOE JAM 5.7 ** Pro: To 2.5 inches.
(Not that one should expect a guide book to discuss how to climb.)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 16, 2006 - 09:24pm PT
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Most soloists descend down the ramp next to Geronimo and zap down another ramp to a ledge that contours around to the north and into a maze of rock tunnels.
Double Cross is way easier to down solo than Toe Jam since the slabby end of Toe Jam is intimidating to descend with no positive holds, particularly if you haven't just climbed it.
Peace
Karl
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jan 16, 2006 - 09:57pm PT
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In the second photo, is the leader (belayer) clipped to the one bolt with the rope or with a daisy chain (length of nylon webbing with sewn loops)? Looks kinda like a daisy. A daisy chain is not meant to be used as a belay anchor sling, etc. The rope must be tied into the bolts (preferably equalized properly…).
Let's just say, for the sake of discussion, that he is tied off (solely) with a daisy clipped to one bolt. Is the bolt clipped with a locking carabiner? Is the bolt clipped through the bolt hanger, or through a lower segment of the rappel chains/etc.? How is the daisy attached to his harness? How is the belay device clipped to his harness?
Is it possible for a daisy and a belay device to be attached to a harness in such a way that a severe enough fall (by the second climber) would put forces on the harness that the harness was not designed for, resulting in failure of the harness and/or belay system, thus sending the follower to the deck (or both to the deck)?
“Also even if I have bomber pro, I hate to weight it ---just in case it fails.”
Some practice C1 aid climbing (possibly on top rope) would do wonders for your confidence in trusting “bomber” gear. A serious bounce test (along with an experienced eye) will let you know that the bomber piece ain’t coming out of the rock and is in fact, bomb squad! (It also might let you know when a piece is not so bomber...)
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Jan 16, 2006 - 11:38pm PT
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Hardman,
Safety is only a few secounds away. This is true for most climbing errors. It only takes a secound to test that hold, it only takes a secound to place extra pro, it only takes a secound to equal that anchor.... We all can add top this list. Hell it takes longer to drink a cold beer than it does to climb with safety in mind.
Brian
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2006 - 11:49pm PT
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“Also even if I have bomber pro, I hate to weight it ---just in case it fails.”
Whoa, ...... I ain't climbing with you ......
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GrandMastaD
Social climber
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Jan 17, 2006 - 12:27am PT
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SuperTopo doesn't write guidebooks for j-tree...so I don't have a clue as to what where exaclty to build an anchor and with what exact pieces and the precise beta to get me up the climb. If C-Mac would do the responsible thing and give me the 411 I wouldn't have a problem!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jan 17, 2006 - 12:35am PT
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This is backtracking a bit, but I just read this thread and JaunBatten's comment really jumped out at me:
"It was an accident that anyone of us could have had.
The climber fell, and his first peace pulled out.
Landed hard.
Really no climber error, statistics."
Now I know you, Juan, and consider you a friend, so don't take this personally, but if a climber falls and pulls gear on the Swift, they blew it, plain and simple. It's not like the pro up there is some weird deal where it's hit or miss. No disrespect man, but that guy is just plain lucky he didn't get killed.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
on a rock or mountain out west
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Jan 17, 2006 - 12:43am PT
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GrandmastaD wrote:
"SuperTopo doesn't write guidebooks for j-tree...so I don't have a clue as to what where exaclty to build an anchor and with what exact pieces and the precise beta to get me up the climb. If C-Mac would do the responsible thing and give me the 411 I wouldn't have a problem!"
HAHAHAHAHA!!! Best laugh I've had all night.
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mark
climber
san diego, ca
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Jan 17, 2006 - 12:48am PT
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Body Belays were better. Don't recall these being called "Death Belays" New world
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mark
climber
san diego, ca
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Jan 17, 2006 - 12:59am PT
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Like we have always made perfect belay stances? Maybe climbing is not all roses and people get hurt and then learn or die doing so...
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mark
climber
san diego, ca
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:07am PT
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boring
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:11am PT
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Accidents do not come from the noob factor, they come to those who deserve.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:17am PT
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Are you sure, Werner?
-Kate.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:18am PT
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You will not be able to save them because you can not even save yourself.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:24am PT
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Um locker, which of you is the melted ice mind and which is the normal mind?
Kinda knowing you both, I would argue that, um, well, yer both not quite normal...or average, anyway.
-Kate.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:34am PT
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You can not forsee the destiny of individuals on their journeys.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:44am PT
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Real knowledge is that this material world is full of danger.
Guard your soul Locker, and your false pride and ego.
We are all eternal nOObs
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 17, 2006 - 09:08am PT
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It's funny how when people talk of their personal spiritual beliefs.....the words just do not translate very well. I think it may be simply because these are things one must find on their own.
Oh...and I misread, and thought the post before said "n00b factory" Ooops.... So, the gyms, and places like rc.com are the processing plants, I was thinking....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 17, 2006 - 10:25am PT
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A brief climbing aside - I haven't had the occasion to make it down to JTree yet, but from a lot of the talk on SuperTopo I get the impression it flares a lot and is a pretty large grained rock on top of it. Is that fairly accurate? And if so do the coarse crystals/grains "scale" off it fairly easily? It does sound like a pretty challenging in environment in general for beginning trad climbers and from what's been reported lately it it would seem even experienced trad leaders can very much underestimate it as well.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 17, 2006 - 10:48am PT
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The simple fact is that many new leaders THINK they are making good placements when in fact they are sh#t.
If you are learning to lead please find an experienced trad climber. Get a guide for a day.
Juanito
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 17, 2006 - 10:58am PT
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When I learned to climb it was back in the late 60's and the trad-mentor thing was the way you learned.
Of course, being in my mid-teens I reasoned that at some point I had gathered enough knowledge to go out on my own, without a mentor, much earlier than I now realize was wise. But when you are a teenage guy, wisdom is not a strong quality.
I knew less than a lot of people coming out of the gyms these days, at least in some areas. Somehow I survived that time and actually enjoyed climbing. While you can complain about gyms producing dangerous climbers now, back in the day the Sierra Club Rock Climbing Sections got heaped with that distinction. There are many more people out there now, a larger cross section of the populace and many more opportunities for f*#king-up.
It's easy to blame some factor other than the human one, and as Werner pointed out, because the human factor plays such a large role in what situations happen, none of us are immune.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 17, 2006 - 11:02am PT
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Juan,
That's often the case in general everywhere. And as I've said a few times I think even among "experienced" trad climbers there are stratas of folks not unlike what my Father used to describe among commercial pilots: "nervous", "competent", and "natural". He was always suspect and remained on high alert when flying with one of the nervous ones.
What I was more curious about is whether JTree represented a topology/morphology/surface that can onerous to protect well or that makes it difficult to judge the quality of placements. More so than say Eldo or the Gunks...
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TimM
Trad climber
Indian Wells, CA
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Jan 17, 2006 - 11:24am PT
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healyje wrote:
" A brief climbing aside - I haven't had the occasion to make it down to JTree yet, but from a lot of the talk on SuperTopo I get the impression it flares a lot and is a pretty large grained rock on top of it. Is that fairly accurate? And if so do the coarse crystals/grains "scale" off it fairly easily? It does sound like a pretty challenging in environment in general for beginning trad climbers and from what's been reported lately it it would seem even experienced trad leaders can very much underestimate it as well."
Most cracks here are not pure cracks. They tend to flare and also open up in the back which makes it hard to blindly plug in a cam. The "scaling" that you talked about does happen ... but not on the more popular routes that I've done ... it seems to be on more of the less climbed routes. IMHO, JT is a challenging area to learn how to place protection.
Tim
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Hootervillian
climber
high ground, twix the carson forks
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Jan 17, 2006 - 11:32am PT
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exactly. what makes josh climbs accessible and dangerous is the same thing: the short crags. they are mostly viewable and apparently doable, yet what seperates you from groundfall can often be a single piece and not much rope. combine that with sometimes tricky granite pro, flaring, grainy cracks, and drive up service....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 17, 2006 - 11:37am PT
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Thanks guys, that's pretty much what I was surmising from following all these accident threads and looking at what appears to be an ocean of rounded, eroded rocks. It almost seems like every JTree pic is of an entirely different rock over hundreds of photos...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 17, 2006 - 01:26pm PT
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As climbing area's go, I would say Joshua Tree has better pro than say Yosemite or TM. I have done way more dangerous climbs in the valley.
But in the valley I think one can fall farther without hitting a bone shattering knob.
Compare say Manure Pile and Lost Horse Wall.
Any fall over 10 feet in Joshua Tree and you are really asking for trouble.
Sew up those cracks newbie.
Juanito
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 17, 2006 - 02:03pm PT
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And wear a helmet. A couple of weeks ago a friend had just started a climb, his piece pulled and he hit the ground from 15'. He hit the back of his head hard on a rock. He walked away from it, thanks to his helmet. Similar circumstance to a recent event, very different outcome thanks to that lid.
Of course, he didn't look cool while climbing. :-P
Also, the person who fell on Toe Jam was helmeted. She drove herself home.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Jan 17, 2006 - 04:00pm PT
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I am with Happiegirrl on this one. Gyms, and certain sport climbing areas, are the "processing plants" for such foolishness as this belay. Damn...we have all seen this done, how many times Hardman?
The horizontal crack directly above the climb takes anything from a red alien to a #3 Camelot. But people pass right by and run to those bolts.
I recently received a "gift certificate," to the local gym. I haven't been to a gym in years. There is a list of climbing commands on the posting wall. Get this:
"Rock," akin to someone yelling 'fore" on the golf course.
Yea...right. I think I would take the golf ball, over the bread box size rock that could take your head off...anyday.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 17, 2006 - 09:09pm PT
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I have always belayed at the top of the crack, for all I care sink some bolts right at the end of crack for nOOb belay?
What does nOOb mean?
Did I miss something.
Juan
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pighumper
climber
Marin
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Jan 17, 2006 - 10:20pm PT
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"As climbing area's go, I would say Joshua Tree has better pro than say Yosemite or TM. I have done way more dangerous climbs in the valley"
I always felt the opposite... everytime I placed a piece in a flaring JT crack.
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canadian-climber
Mountain climber
Victoria British Columbia
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Jan 17, 2006 - 10:55pm PT
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Hay just got back J tree today I was wondering if anyone knew about the young guy that decked out on the spider last Sat?? is he OK ??
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Fluoride
Trad climber
on a rock or mountain out west
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Jan 17, 2006 - 11:29pm PT
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canadian-climber, look at Werner's JT accident thread. The climber unfortunately didn't make it. A coworker of his did a short writeup.
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Jan 18, 2006 - 01:04am PT
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What is stupider. . . Belaying like the pic above or hauling up a car seat like the pic below
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jan 18, 2006 - 03:08am PT
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"What is stupider. . . Belaying like the pic above or hauling up a car seat like the pic below"
Being a Californian and enjoying the shitty air quality and paved landscapes?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jan 18, 2006 - 03:26am PT
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Last week I saw the ocean from my house, 56 miles away. Not bad for "sh*tty air quality". As I sit here now at midnight, I can see city lights over 40 miles away from my living room.
From my back door, I can make my way all the way to the Colorado River (200 miles) on all dirt roads, and only cross 5 paved roads. Not exactly "paved landscape" if you ask me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2006 - 04:47am PT
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Karsten - great shot! Strange looking. Roads are laid out like a Paradise Valley subdivision with rocks where houses should be. Pretty posh looking...
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jan 18, 2006 - 05:35am PT
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Healyje,
You gotta make it down to Josh. The climbing is mostly one-pitch stuff, but the scenery will blow you away.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2006 - 09:19am PT
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Would love to some time. Usually buckled down working in the winter though so I can play in the summer/fall...
Will give a shout if I ever break away and make it down.
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ladd
Trad climber
land of fruits, nuts and flakes
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Jan 18, 2006 - 12:23pm PT
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HK.. nice thread pic - brings back great memories!
Hey, how about that good ole Judas route just underneath Toejam. Judas - starts out up a nice crack to very sketchy edging (at least back when all we had were RR's and EB's) then the longggg traverse to the right (LOL, no falling allowed) - it just made it so much easier (mentally) to finally get/have a #4 Friend to protect it well. Talk about protecting the second from what would be a terrible pendy, Judas was a classic on jamming, edging, protecting the traverse for the second with more jam/undercling. I'll bet Judas is not too often climb these days - is it? From the pic - those belay anchors, where the bonehead leader is belaying the second, were never meant for Toejam. No, they were originally intended as anchors for climbing Judas and Bearded Cabbage! Toejam was suppose to continue straight up - not traverse right?
cheers
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Murf
climber
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Jan 18, 2006 - 12:36pm PT
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Judas is the direct start to Toe Jam ( 5.10b ). The route which does the crack start to Judas and then continues right on bolts is Chongo Bolt Route ( 5.11- ).
The bolts are basically a rap route which doesn't interfere with any of the routes.
Murf
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 18, 2006 - 12:58pm PT
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Thanks Locker.
Who invented nOOb?
Jeff
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426
Sport climber
Buschville, TN
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Jan 18, 2006 - 01:38pm PT
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I think you'd do well by dialing in your crack without ropes on stuff like False Up 20, Pinhead, etc. Try Peabrain (old's'cool 5.11) while thinking about how you'd 'pertect' it on lead...
Dialing in your 'technique' by hopping on "T.S. Special" or EBGBs isn't exactly a balm for all of us...
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jan 18, 2006 - 05:00pm PT
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The rappel anchors were not placed as anchors for Bearded Cabbage, but purely as a rap route.
Since more than a few people seem to be exercising very poor judgment about the belay (and some people on jtclimbing were advocating for drastic measures to protect these people from themselves), I've emailed the publisher and was able to change the description for Toe Jam in the new guide (out in March):
1927. Toe Jam (5.7) ** Start on the left side of the east face. Go up a short curving crack to a right-slanting crack system; then up the thin crack that ends just before reaching a large belay ledge (natural anchors). Pro: To 2.5 inches. Do not belay from the rappel anchor to the right (dangerous for second). FA: Jerry Gallwas, George Scheiff, Gary Hemming, 11/52.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta J-Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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A few years ago Crotch Robbins posted a veritable masterpiece of photo-journalism to rec.climbing.
In fact, it provided much inspiration for this thread:
Copyright 2003 Crotch Robbins (used with permission).
The photo (and its comments) can be viewed here at RC.com.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 19, 2006 - 12:58pm PT
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That is a classic belay .....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 19, 2006 - 01:02pm PT
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Yes, the ever popular "bump and grind" belay...
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crotch
climber
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Jan 19, 2006 - 01:03pm PT
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Werner,
The belay is only the half of it. Check out the screamers.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 19, 2006 - 01:06pm PT
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Yes must have screamers, isn't there some guy way back there in the back ground sceaming at the leader?
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matisse
Trad climber
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Jan 19, 2006 - 01:13pm PT
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So much to love about this photo.
What does the belayer think will happen if the leader falls? that he will explode, spraying human shrapnel?
I especially love the look of intense concentration on the face of the leader.
and the gloves. I had not noticed his gloves before.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 19, 2006 - 01:17pm PT
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There is not much to think about what is going to happen, otherwise they would be thinking.
Gloves, you no like gloves? I like gloves.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jan 19, 2006 - 01:24pm PT
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Makes sense. The belayer, realizing that he forgot his helmet, is standing back to avoid getting hit by falling objects - perhaps like gear slipping out of gloved hands. Also, not in the picture are too hotties soloing to the left. He could not see them when he was in the BLZ (Bigguy Landing Zone).
Note that the camera is to the left. This was the only shot taken of the belay, and it was pure chance that the belayer was looking at the climber.
In fact, the only reason this picture was taken was because one of the hotties turned toward the cameraman, and he did not want to seem like a total voyeur.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jan 19, 2006 - 01:45pm PT
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"So much to love about this photo"
i like the otherwise hyper-attentive belay, the rope is as taught as a slackline, it's as if the leader just said "watch me", and the belayer, 30' away, is all over it.
the guy is really blowing an opportunity by not sitting in his car to belay.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 19, 2006 - 01:48pm PT
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Ouch! If ever there was a canvas...
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 19, 2006 - 01:51pm PT
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Like you guys have never done anything stupid?
BTW, I like the Makalus on the leader.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 19, 2006 - 01:57pm PT
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Why I stopped reading rc.com. People actually thought that was cool.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Jan 19, 2006 - 02:00pm PT
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So, how many days did it take for this team to top out? Short Wall at Indian Cove, correct? I'm pretty sure it's been done in a day by a few strong teams.
--->bob
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matisse
Trad climber
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Jan 19, 2006 - 02:02pm PT
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werner,
love the gloves.
sue
ps Gary, that isn't you is it?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 19, 2006 - 02:15pm PT
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No, Sue, that isn't me!
Those guys are better aid climbers than I am.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 19, 2006 - 02:21pm PT
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NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! For the love of god man - don't encourage him! AAAGGGGHHHH NO - Curt rings the bell on the multisite troll-o-meter! Damn Karl, and I thought we knew thee....
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matisse
Trad climber
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Jan 19, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
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Gary,
Sorry to cast aspersions. Can you imagine being those 2 guys and having your picture plastered all over the web? Brutal. Just when they think it's gone away for good, someone posts it again and it starts alll over.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 19, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 19, 2006 - 02:30pm PT
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I sent the aid line free on sight. I think it harder than 10a.
Juanito
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta J-Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2006 - 02:32pm PT
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Matisse wrote:
Can you imagine being those 2 guys and having your picture plastered all over the web? Brutal.
Just when they think it's gone away for good, someone posts it again and it starts all over.
Which 2 guys?
From the Toe Jam Death Belay™ or the Indian Cove Death Belay™?
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matisse
Trad climber
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Jan 19, 2006 - 02:40pm PT
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The assault on R V crack in IC death belay.
sorry to be unclear
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Jan 19, 2006 - 02:40pm PT
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HK -
"Indian Cove Death Belay"
He's gonna have to take one hell of a weird fall to actually die there. He is, however, in serious danger of a bruised ass.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta J-Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2006 - 02:48pm PT
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Death Belay™ doesn't necessarily mean certain death...
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jan 19, 2006 - 02:58pm PT
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karl-
you are not belaying from your rig either, i am not impressed.
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paulj
climber
utah
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Jan 19, 2006 - 03:43pm PT
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I wish I had a picture of a belay at Hidden Valley, VA. Immediately beneath a large roof, one could belay from bucket seat bolted directly to rock (a Ford Mustang seat, if I remember correctly). One can watch the climber from the proper belay spot, while kicking back in the seat and avoiding the sore neck syndrome. Oh, the seat belt was bolted alongside as well, so one could buckle up...such are the quirks of a privately owned climbing area.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Jan 19, 2006 - 04:06pm PT
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My favorite,"why they didn't die..." at Josh.
Guy climbs up "Chalk Up Another One," tops out, spends some time realizing there aren't any bolts on top. Brings his partner up anyways... his anchor? Wedging his body on the rock.
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scuffy b
climber
S Cruz
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Jan 19, 2006 - 04:42pm PT
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You never belay without an anchor?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 19, 2006 - 05:59pm PT
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Wedging his body on the rock
They were mountaineers, obviously. You've never done that?
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Fluoride
Trad climber
on a rock or mountain out west
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Jan 19, 2006 - 07:19pm PT
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"Guy climbs up "Chalk Up Another One," tops out, spends some time realizing there aren't any bolts on top. Brings his partner up anyways... his anchor? Wedging his body on the rock."
Good lord.
That happens a lot there. You see the poor souls that see a bolted climb there and think "well, if someone put bolts on the climb, then SURELY they put bolts up top at the anchor!!!" Only to find out that a number of the bolted climbs there require you to build your own gear anchor up top...especially if it's a climb with a walk off descent like many there are. If you don't need to rap it, there likely ain't gonna be rap anchors so bring some nuts and cams.
he-HEEH on that old Crotch photo. I've always wondered if those poor guys knew about it's longevity here on the internet and the hours of endless "what's wrong with this picture" threads that resulted. While part of me feels really sorry for those guys and their decision to pick a ridiculously high-profile place to decide to learn aiding, every time I see it I still crack a smile.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Jan 19, 2006 - 07:32pm PT
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yep...even yelled up to the guy if he wanted some gear for a belay...waved me off...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jan 19, 2006 - 09:49pm PT
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a few years ago while belaying my second (his first 5.8)up Double Cross, he yelled "There's a guy coming up"
i thought WTF? and looked down to see a bald guy soloing up BETWEEN me and my partner.
i yelled to my partner to "WAIT UNTIL THIS ASSHOLE GETS OUT OF THE WAY"
when the "soloist" made it to my belay he did not make eye contact with me and sat quietly until my second finished then soloed back down DC.
typical HVBS on a crowded weekend.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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IT'S ALIVE!
and well on New Years Day:
The guys were also apparently trailing behind a long "tail" of aluminum beer cans. The previous evening's consumption?
And while the follower looked completely solid, if you are going to bother with a belay ...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Anybody ever see a fall from that point?
My guess is that it's not a "death Belay" but merely a "Sh#t Pants and Scrape Skin Belay"
Still not good
Peace
Karl
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
X
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it's josh, at any moment if the climbing gets to hard,then just stand up and walk to the top...it won't be a long walk either,30 feet tops..of course you'll have to stop often to get the gravel out of your shoes...
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wtfd
climber
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i thought that was a boulder problem.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
the campfire just a ways past Chris' Taco stand
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Whatever the result (death, cheese gratering of various appendages, wounded ego, etc.), it's a clear case of evolution-in-action™.
I think he may not be so solid since he's obviously shitting aluminum. Which begs the question... What happened the previous night?
Fletch
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Is trailing a long tail of empty beer cans up Toe Jam while doing the death belay a proud accomplishment or what! This photo is gonna get some mileage.
I wonder if those guys trailed those cans up all their routes today.
LOL Fletcher, it does look like they're crapping aluminum.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
the campfire just a ways past Chris' Taco stand
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I've got it... I know what happened...
These guys were on the losing end of some kind of bet. Loser had to climb Toe Jam with aluminum tails and use the infamous death belay.
Fletch
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Well, there have been some bad falls as a result of the "death belay".
I don't know why this is so difficult. Must be the shiny objects.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Mar 31, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
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One of my original partners fell on Sidewinder just before the flake. Took a fantastic swing which ended over in the overhung portion. Sucked it up and finished it - No injuries, no underwear change.
As I was just a beginner at the time, it had the net effect of keeping me from leading it for a long time.
As for leading vs. following it, leading it is tougher. After unclipping the bolt, the rail gets progressively smaller.
Saw this and had to comment - if you are leading Sidewinder or any route that finishes it, do your partner a solid and run the extra 10 feet of 5.4 to the top out so they don't take a wicked pendulum after unclipping the bolt. You can run the rope along the lip (flip, flip, flip) and keep them on TR the entire time. I did it to my partner but didn't get the favor returned on Diamondback... haha.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Anybody ever see a fall from that point?
An acquaintance followed a very accomplished and experienced climber and got the death belay. She's took a fall and pendulummed over and was briefly unconscious from the impact. Fortunately she was wearing a helmet.
IIRC, this was the same day that poor fellow pulled a piece 15 feet up Intersection Rock and cashed out.
Bad day at HV.
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