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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Feb 27, 2011 - 02:14am PT
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by "someone" lol...way to narrow it right down dude
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 27, 2011 - 03:36am PT
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I'll just keep pulling them out. Last time around all the kids bitched that there was no discussion now the same people are bitching that it's being discussed. Wildbone you're a nonparticipant so your opinion does not matter.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 27, 2011 - 04:06am PT
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I'm not sure what your talking about but this really didn't feel like a discussion. More like an interrogation.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 27, 2011 - 04:43am PT
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Fine, it's just chop chop from here on out.
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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Feb 27, 2011 - 05:06am PT
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I'm a non-participant? You don't know me.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 27, 2011 - 05:39am PT
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I think its a good idea to find out who's putting those up before chopping anything. At least a discussion with the FA party should be attempted.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 27, 2011 - 06:33am PT
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Ok wildbone who are you then? Kelsey these have been established routes for generations. They don't need bolts added to them. So it's chop time.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Feb 27, 2011 - 09:54am PT
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Last time around all the kids bitched that there was no discussion now the same people are bitching that it's being discussed. Wildbone you're a nonparticipant so your opinion does not matter.
I've seen you posting all this stuff to a bunch of other bulletin boards J Kelly. Look, you guys need to get together and discuss this mano -e mano. As far as the chopping thing goes, go for it. Or maybe you want the "authorities" to step in and manage it and you? In either case, almost all of us are "non-participants". Most of us have never been to Alaska and never will. We feel lucky if we can spell it correctly. The closest we get to Alaska is watching Sarah Palin on the news and having erotic thoughts. (Yeah, I said it out loud, you all know it's true)
You will not effect change by ranting on a thread mostly read by So Californians Kelly. Go look some of these guys in the eyes and discuss it right to their faces. Try to be less shrill too. If you can't find them then twist the offending bolts off with a breaker bar. SNAP. just like that. If they feel that they have a right to put them into an established route without discussing it with you or the first ascentionists, you have as much right to snap them off without discussing it with them. Takes all of 10 seconds... if that. It would be much faster than these long written rants to strangers who don't care a whit, and much more effective as well.
I'm making the assumption that you did discuss this with the folks who did the FA and that led you to this point, if not, you need to get your sh#t together in a very serious way and figure it out and you won't be able to get there from here. So get on the telephone and start dialing your buddies to get it figured out. Or you can chose to continue to rant online, in which case we'll all know that you are full of hot air and not serious, cause if you were serious, and this was important, you'd go do what I said up there. Maybe read this post twice if you need too so you have it figured out.
Good luck to you all.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Feb 27, 2011 - 10:19am PT
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The closest we get to Alaska is watching Sarah Palin on the news and having erotic thoughts.
If erotic thoughts include barfing, then yeah, I guess you're right.
I haven't seen the routes, but if all these retro bolts are just she-man bolts, then I'm with JK. In climbing, nothing pisses me off more than those things. Just do it right.
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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Feb 27, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
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+1 on the barfing/gouging my eyes out...
Unlike you, I actually have climbed on the seward highway, as my company has a condo in Anchorage, where I find myself often enough. Hell, maybe I'll see JK out there someday, yarding out bolts! You never know.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Feb 27, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
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The closest we get to Alaska is watching Sarah Palin on the news and having erotic thoughts. (Yeah, I said it out loud, you all know it's true
Now yer talking!!!
Jump on the Palin Train, IT"S RUNNIN HOTTTTT!!!!
John, you should just go send another epic route dude. Obviously your not busy chopping, rather running your anoying mouth and taking up space on the front page.
Edit: OOPs, I just bumped this to the top.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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The Chugach State Park is now taking comments on it's newly proposed policy which bans the placement and use of any perminent anchor in the CSP. I guess the CSP noticed the few hundred new bolts along the hwy and some other spots as well.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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The Chugach State Park is now taking comments on it's newly proposed policy which bans the placement and use of any perminent anchor in the CSP. I guess the CSP noticed the few hundred new bolts along the hwy and some other spots as well.
Well since you publicized this so widely, it's a sure bet that they read your words and that you yourself have caused this. I live 1000's of miles away and read your bitching on multiple web sites. (first causation goes to the bolter of course, but you get the credit here).
Congrats. Hope you are happy.
What the hell is wrong with people who are always bitching online and don't expect things like this to occur?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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The policy change proposal is because of the hundred or so new bolts you can see from the road, mostly ASCA bolts btw. Where are the bolters now? They stood in line to take credit for all of the drilling "services". What does the ASCA/Greg Barnes have to say? They seem pretty proud about the new hardware too.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Well, at least you feel that you are innocent.
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William Finley
Mountain climber
Anchorage
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I'll be the first to admit that I'm not happy about the retro bolts. If a line has been TR only or a highball problem for years then it shouldn't be bolted for the masses. This year I've seen retro bolts on Center Fire and on Upper Pivot Point plus the old ones that have been on Sunshine Ridge for a few years now. I recently went to Upper Crack in the Woods and noticed the bolts are gone - which is a good thing. Thanks for pulling them cleanly (I could barely find the holes).
However... hundreds of retro bolts? Please fill me in. I've been climbing on the highway more than usual this summer and I haven't been seeing these hundreds of retro bolts. Or do you call replacing old 1/2" bolts retro bolting? Having ripped off more chossy holds than usual this rainy summer I've not been too keen on getting on anything with rusty old button heads. Call me a wimp.
Do you really think that the Chugach State Park Planners want to ban fixed anchors because they've had a sudden environmental change of heart? Please... this is the same plan that proposes a new road through the park up to Glen Alps. The same plan that removes all of Crow Pass from the wilderness zone. The same plan that allows tactical military training in the wilderness zone, commercial power development in the non-wilderness portions of the park and new huts in Peters Creek and Bird Creek.
When compared to the issues I listed above the issue of fixed anchors is ridiculously trivial. If the park wants to implement a fixed anchor ban because of a handful of new bolts (which I guarantee you neither Monica Alvarez nor Tom Harrison have ever seen) then chances are they're only doing so because of a very vocal local who can't seem to talk about this in a rational manner.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Great, if this ban goes through then we'll be stuck with the existing bolts.
Yes, whoever added all the bolts to upper pivot was an idiot, it should have stayed as a top rope bouldering area, a few bolts to setup a tr, and that's it. But somebody when bosh crazy up there, and it boggles my mind that somebody would add two bolts with malions above the crack when one could walk off faster than they could set up a rap and pull the rope.
But why get on the internet and spray about threats of chopping the retrobolts, either get out there and chop them, or STFU. When I was up at Pivot Point a few weeks back my instict was to come back with a crowbar. But I guess I've matured or mellowed somewhat as I realize the rock loses when we get into spats over bolts. Does this really justify a bolt war?
Sarcastic jab to the bolters, you've really accomplished something when you retrobolt something that was toproped by a 6 y/o.
As this statement, "I guess the CSP noticed the few hundred new bolts along the hwy and some other spots as well. "
A few hundred, really???
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William Finley
Mountain climber
Anchorage
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it boggles my mind that somebody would add two bolts with malions above the crack when one could walk off faster than they could set up a rap and pull the rope. Next time you're up there look at the trees nearby. They've been trashed from years of TR anchors. Sometimes a couple bolts have less impact. Placing fixed rock anchors in popular areas to keep vegetation healthy is an accepted practice throughout the US and something that climbers should encourage.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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As I said, I have no problem with bolts as tr anchors, they certainly have their place. That said, in the 14 odd years I’ve been up here, I think the bolting chronology in that time frame is something like:
There were a pair of 5/16” button heads with smc hangers placed way back at the top of the rock, kind of a stupid location given the length of slings needed.
12 odd years ago I placed a couple of welded 3/8” cold shuts on the top of the 5.8 route that was retrobolted this year. They were a logical location for a tr anchor, but I regret using the cold shuts. I also placed another set up anchors higher and to the right for the next face over for a tr.
I think the next year or so Bruce and Kate retrobolted the 5.8 that now has 5 lead bolts and two tr bolts, as shown in this pic.
This summer somebody smashed off one of the welded cold shuts on the top of the 5.8, put in a new bolt and hanger (don’t know why they didn’t replace both of them or patch the old bolt) and they retrobolted the tr with 3 new lead bolts. Also the crack route now sports 2 bolts on top, with mallions. It’s the mallions that make no sense to me, they are poorly located to rap from, and really don’t need to be so far back for a tr anchor. So now that little rock has 10 anchors on top of it, 8 lead bolts, oops 9 counting one next to the crack.
It’s a nice little location, far enough away from the highway that you can barely hear the cars, for the area very solid rock, and nicely featured. I just don’t see why somebody would go crazy adding lead bolts to short established tr problems that have been done countless times as highballs. I can’t see how anyone could get a sense of accomplishment from “leading” those routes, or adding bolts to them. Respect the fact that the routes are established tr’s and climb them as such.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Conclusion, bolt wars are almost as lame as arguing on the internet. Don't know what sort of lameness arguing bolt wars on the internet brings one to.
But with all this fervor, I simply had to check out the routes that had generated this spat. It's been years since been to upper crack in the woods, certainly I must have been missing something as why had I not been back to such an amazing spot in years?
Whoever did the chopping did a fine job, as I couldn't see where any bolts had been placed, though I didn't put that much effort into the inspection. I don't have my guide book with me but I'm pretty sure it was Hocus Pocus I dropped a line down from the top and rope soloed at lunch today. I know I'd climbed it ~10 years ago and at the time was suprised that I could still climb a 5.10. Well, getting back on it kinda cleared up why (I'm a long ways from being solid on 10's as I was back in the day). The tan metolious hanger also jostled my memory that I'd replaced the original bolt with as I recall a 3/8" 3 1/2" 5pc rawl bolt.
My pas camera died earlier this year, so appologies for no pics, though you're not missing much. Here's about as good of a description of the route as I can muster. There is a low angle 3rd class slab to the base of the route, the slab is ~20' and change, then it trasitions to just less than verticle. There is a small crack that will accept I'm guessing a 4 or 5 sized chock you can place before getting on the route. The first move or two is 5.8 with solid hand and foot holds. You can't clip the bolt at this point, but there is a crack that will accept a #2 camalot, and still allow you to use the crack as a handhold. So that's two pieces of gear about 2' apart. Then you have to work up to thin foot and hand holds for one move until you reach a bomber jug, and can clip the bolt. After that it's jugs to the top. The bolt is at your feet when your hands are at the top of the route, though you could place another cam or nut before topping out, for that added security. I'm not sure how accurate my vernier eyebrows are, but I'd say it's 20' of verticle rock, maybe a scoach more.
All this spew and spray about one of the most forgettable climbs on a highway full of forgettable climbs? I mean, out of 200 routes along the highway you'd be hard pressed to find a handful you'd want to share with a visiting climber.
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