Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 4, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
Only in this universe could I participate in a thread where John Gill speaks only in poetry.

Jan. It may be a minority to you, but the fundamentalists are a big force in the bible belt. There is always something going on regarding evolution in schools. One of my best buddies found God and Guns about ten years ago. Despite having two degrees, one in biology and one in chemistry, he went off on me about evolution by saying it violated the second law of thermodynamics. So I pointed to his pickup and said that that sucker violated it as well.

Do you remember the Republican debate where they were asked to hold up their hands if they believed in evolution? Rick Santorum later said that he believed in "micro evolution." Code speak for adaptation of things like bacteria which rapidly go through a great number of generations, and do things like adapt to drugs.

Those guys can't win a national election without the hyper religious vote. The democrats are far more open, although they openly proclaim their religious faith as well.

Here is a good one. I have this rotten spot in my tibia. It is growing, and several docs had conflicting diagnoses. I made an appointment with an oncologist. It was up at this huge cancer center.

I am sitting out in the lush waiting area, and the ONLY reading material in this place was Christian. So I pick up a magazine and see an article on the perils of teaching evolution. The photo of the author showed a very young man. It was pretty funny. He poked all kinds of mortal wounds on evolution.

He said that scientists were full of it when they said that they could take a couple of bone fragments and say what the animal looked like. He also made the claim that colorful flowers didn't make sense because only primates had color vision. Hmmmmm. It was on about that level, and he made the point that the scripture was the unequivacable word of God, and that every word was literally true. So here I am, waiting to find out if I am going to die of bone cancer, and the only thing to read was THIS?

So I snarfed it and shared it at work. Geologists love reading that stuff. It is like reading something from an alternate universe.

The thing with evolution is that whatever the mechanism for speciation and adaptation is, the rock record speaks volumes. The Earth is very old, life started very simply, and vertebrate paleontology isn't even that interesting. The vast majority of fossils are invertebrates. Things change over time. The study of hominids isn't even that interesting to a geologist. It only covers a few million years. Most of us deal with events that took place over hundreds of millions of years. The planet has been scoured by field geologists, and nobody has found a rusty nail in an Ordovician sandstone. It has been scoured for economic reasons. Geology is a science that is directly profitable to know, so there really isn't a speck on the planet that hasn't been looked at in a cursory manner, and areas with economic value are studied intensely.

Types of mineral deposits, hydrocarbon accumulation, or even the economics of a gravel pit are studied.

Everything fits fairly nicely. The evidence fills a library. Even Astronomy, Biology, Chemistry, and other disciplines all agree on an extremely old age for not only the Earth, but the Universe itself. There just aren't any glaring inconsistencies. Sure, there are very important details, but on a planetary scale, the gist of the story is blatant.

The beginning of life on this planet is still unknown. As Werner says, all life comes from life. That has been the case with every life form we know of. Species do come and go, though.

So I do get my panties in a bunch when politicians must ally themselves with strict religious doctrine. They have to. Every president, and most politicians go out of their way to show their faith, mainly Christian faith in this country. Obama is supposedly a muslim. Donald Thompson can probably provide us with proof of that.

Now is religion inherently a BAD thing? I don't think so, at the moment. Many of our moral values have roots in religion, and if nothing else, that is OK by me. It isn't a certain source of morality, though. All of this carping for war comes quite readily to people of faith. I can't understand that.

If you have ever raised a child, you will understand that things like altruism are learned. I believe that by nature we are very selfish. That selfishness is expressed in many ways. Economics, Politics, War.

So. Politics and Religion vs. Science, as the thread says, is very real in a practical sense. Your average person doesn't really care what you can provide with APPLIED science, as long as you don't talk about it.

To stay on topic, my favorite climb was when I hadn't climbed in 7 years. I climbed the Nose with my brother in law. I aided every inch. The fun part was getting him over that whole mind f*#k El Cap thing of being so high that you feel totally afraid. He was a strong sport climber, but he quickly pulled out the aiders right along with me. He wanted to bail after the first bivy, but having been through that mental experience myself before, would have none of it. I would do all of the chores, but by the time we got to camp 5, he was hopping around on the ledge in his sleeping bag with a twenty foot loop of slack. It was great. I massaged him through that mental hurdle. We have been close friends ever since, and it was by far the most fun that I had on a wall, despite being horribly slow and using terrible style.


Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 4, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
I should clarify a few things. At least with Christianity, Jesus was quite clear that things like empathy and compassion were of utmost importance. He hung out in the bad crowd, with the poor, and there are many things that he said that I find quite wonderful.

So why don't you fill us with that, Go-B? That is the way to go fishing. Not just plucking statements about faith. Jesus was an extraordinary character. How we go from Jesus to Pat Robertson baffles me. How we go from Jesus to the prosperity religion of Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer also baffles me.

You know. Pray and you will get riches in this life. I don't remember hearing much about that in sunday school. Jesus was much like Ghandi. Very kind, tolerant, and forgiving. The fundamentalist Christians, the Jews, the Muslims, have all forgotten that. I excuse the Jews, because they never accepted Jesus. I accept that Jesus was a man who was well enough known to be in the Koran, and he said many kind things. I really don't think that he was a capitalist....

I have tried to read the Koran. Within the first twenty pages it more or less horrified me. I have read a fair amount of the Book of Mormon. Hey. It would be a lot easier if you just put those golden tablets on display in Salt Lake City. I mean holding physical evidence of God a secret seems kind of whacky.

I will say one thing. Population growth on this planet is not just harming the environment. It is exhausting resources. Our children will be greatly affected by this. Everyone should stop screwing so much.

--One time I showed up in the valley in pitiful shape. I hung for a couple of minutes at the top of the first pitch of Outer Limits.

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 4, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
Here is a cool thing. Look at the flatlands of NW Oklahoma. There are Permian rocks at the surface. 270 million years old. This area is on the northern shelf of the Anadarko Basin, which formed in Pennsylvanian time.. 310 million years ago.

Ames area. Major County, Oklahoma
Ames area. Major County, Oklahoma
Credit: BASE104

It is in an area of prolific oil and gas production. This is a map which includes this area, showing all of the wells that have been drilled over the years.

This is the number of oil and gas wells drilled over the years. Each l...
This is the number of oil and gas wells drilled over the years. Each little square is a square mile.
Credit: BASE104

This is a structure map showing the depth to the Pennsylvanian Checkerboard Limestone, a good regional stratigraphic marker.

See anything interesting yet? You can often see deeper features due to...
See anything interesting yet? You can often see deeper features due to differential compaction of overlying sedimentary rocks as they de-water and compact.
Credit: BASE104

This is a structure map of the Deeper Silurian Sylvan Shale. The Sylvan predated the formation of the basin, but was deposited over the area in a shallow sea. The Sylvan is 425 million years old and about 10,000 feet below the surface.

I have zoomed in on the interesting spot. Things are beginning to beco...
I have zoomed in on the interesting spot. Things are beginning to become more clear, but the rocks dip steeply to the SW towards the basin center, in which the Sylvan is found about 15000 feet deeper.
Credit: BASE104

This is a 3rd order drivitave of the above surface. Now you see something cool. Remember, the Silurian rocks show an underlying feature, but are not disturbed.

This was seen in the nineties, when computers first came into use for ...
This was seen in the nineties, when computers first came into use for mapping. It was seen as either a volcano or..more likely, and impact feature. Pretty big one. 8+ miles in diameter.
Credit: BASE104

OK. Dinner time. I will tell the whole story in an hour.


2 Timothy 1:9-10
Jul 4, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
BASE104 if you want a watered down Jesus only, peace and love bro, far out!
The Jesus of the bible, is God incarnate...

Johm 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 4, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
Sorry. Still editing the above post. Hang in there.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
The Jesus of the bible, is God incarnate...
I thought Jesus was the Son of God

2 Timothy 1:9-10
Jul 4, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
I thought Jesus was the Son of God

True but...

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

...true as well!


Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 4, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
OK. Back in the nineties, a small company drilled around the rim of that feature and found pulverized Cambrian Arbuckle Limestone. A drilling boom started in the area, and there was a rebound feature in the middle, where all of the basal sedimentary rocks had been blasted out and the underlying granite basement rocks were totally shattered. There were some huge oil wells in that rebound feature. It was almost all shocked quartz, settling the debate about its origin.

It is an Ordovician meteorite impact crater. There is a ton of literature on it. Google "Ames Hole," and you will find some papers.

The overlying Silurian rocks were undisturbed, whereas the underlying Ordovician rocks were blasted to snot. So it can be dated as Ordovician. 450+ million years ago. That was before land plants.

I have seen some cores of it and it will blow your mind.

So that is a really blatant example of something that you would drive right over and all you would see is wheat fields. I look at more normal features, but they are as real and as old as that one.


Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 4, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
OK, Go-B.

Answer some questions.

1) Are the Jews all going to hell after Jesus comes back?

2) What do you think of Islam? Was Mohammed a false prophet?

3) What do you think of Joseph Smith? Was he a false prophet?

The Bible, The Koran, and the Book of Mormon warn of false prophets. How am I to know who is a false prophet?

4) Finally, do you believe in the literal interpretation of the account in Genesis? Bluntly, do you believe in the scientific interpretation of the age of the Earth, and sequence of events in its history?


2 Timothy 1:9-10
Jul 4, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
Concerning Israel...

In Zechariah 12 & 13

Romans 10 & 11

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

...that goes for everyone!

God made the world in six days the bible says, and Jesus was born of a virgin, and was resurrected on the third day, who am I to say that's wrong?

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 4, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, 2 “Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3 It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely [c]injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. 4 In that day,” declares the Lord, “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will [d]watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘[e]A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the Lord of hosts, their God.’

OK. All of the horses will be bewildered and their riders will go mad. How many people ride horses in Israel these days? That is, if you take every word literally.

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 4, 2012 - 10:12pm PT
God made the world in six day's the bible say's, and Jesus was born of a virgin, and was resurrected on the third day, who am I to say that's wrong?

you are much too innocent and good of a person to be involved in questioning anything

there is absolutely no reason why you can't live your entire life in blissful naivete

now have a wonderful evening and dream tonight of little angels looking out for you

your friend


2 Timothy 1:9-10
Jul 4, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
Doesn't everybody have a two horse / camel garage?

2 Timothy 1:9-10
Jul 4, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
Norton, I wasn't there when God put in His work week, how the heck do I know!

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 4, 2012 - 11:09pm PT
Go-B, you seem to be a great guy. I have said before that I take no pleasure in puncturing someone's balloon. I know that I won't puncture your balloon, so I feel sorta OK in asking you some direct questions.

The fact remains that over 400 million years ago a fairly large meteorite smashed into Oklahoma. That sucker has been cored and drilled to death. It is buried beneath 10,000 feet of rock, but hints of it could be seen in slightly shallower rocks. Nobody drills to the depth of that feature in that area. There are also some famous astroblemes in the Williston Basin.

I could start in on paleontology, but it is a pretty dry though thorough topic.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
Why did you give up on the Bogwhan, and switch to Christianity

I think only the Bogwhaniens get to go to heaven, all others go to the cow pasture or worse

How can you be sure either way?
maybe you better believe ALL Religions just in case

I like to puncture ballons
if they are filled with hot air

Jul 5, 2012 - 01:23am PT
I take the above to mean that the interpretation has to do with facts, figures, or some strange info or at any rate something for the discursive mind to "interpret" per ones progress.

JL has been over this ground before.


2 Timothy 1:9-10
Jul 5, 2012 - 09:05am PT
How can you be sure either way?
maybe you better believe ALL Religions just in case

Ecclesiastes 2:24 A person can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in their own toil. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, 25 for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment? 26 To the person who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness

Remember Your Creator While Young
Ecclesiastes 11:7 Light is sweet,
and it pleases the eyes to see the sun.
8 However many years anyone may live,
let them enjoy them all.
But let them remember the days of darkness,
for there will be many.
Everything to come is meaningless.

9 You who are young, be happy while you are young,
and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth.
Follow the ways of your heart
and whatever your eyes see,
but know that for all these things
God will bring you into judgment.
10 So then, banish anxiety from your heart
and cast off the troubles of your body,
for youth and vigor are meaningless.

12:1 Remember your Creator
in the days of your youth,
before the days of trouble come
and the years approach when you will say,
“I find no pleasure in them”—
2 before the sun and the light
and the moon and the stars grow dark,
and the clouds return after the rain;
3 when the keepers of the house tremble,
and the strong men stoop,
when the grinders cease because they are few,
and those looking through the windows grow dim;
4 when the doors to the street are closed
and the sound of grinding fades;
when people rise up at the sound of birds,
but all their songs grow faint;
5 when people are afraid of heights
and of dangers in the streets;
when the almond tree blossoms
and the grasshopper drags itself along
and desire no longer is stirred.
Then people go to their eternal home
and mourners go about the streets.
6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
“Everything is meaningless! ”

13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.

Psalm 119
א Aleph
1 Blessed are those whose ways are blameless,
who walk according to the law of the Lord.
2 Blessed are those who keep his statutes
and seek him with all their heart—
3 they do no wrong
but follow his ways.
4 You have laid down precepts
that are to be fully obeyed.
5 Oh, that my ways were steadfast
in obeying your decrees!
6 Then I would not be put to shame
when I consider all your commands.
7 I will praise you with an upright heart
as I learn your righteous laws.
8 I will obey your decrees;
do not utterly forsake me.

ת Taw
169 May my cry come before you, Lord;
give me understanding according to your word.
170 May my supplication come before you;
deliver me according to your promise.
171 May my lips overflow with praise,
for you teach me your decrees.
172 May my tongue sing of your word,
for all your commands are righteous.
173 May your hand be ready to help me,
for I have chosen your precepts.
174 I long for your salvation, Lord,
and your law gives me delight.
175 Let me live that I may praise you,
and may your laws sustain me.
176 I have strayed like a lost sheep.
Seek your servant,
for I have not forgotten your commands.

Without God you miss your real purpose and meaning of life!

We should always give thanks for what we have, but how many sandwiches and drinks, days of work and play satisfy unless you do them with joy in your heart!

We are like dogs chasing our tails!

We can't earn our way into heaven, God offers free passage through Jesus and He is the difference from all other ways!

Jul 5, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
Norton made a point a while back. It just doesn't feel right to burst someone's cherished bubble, or to poke fun at it. I went to a Dawkins lecture once, and it was all poking fun at religion. I see no point until a belief becomes a mandate, which fortunately doesn't happen in my neck of the woods.

Oh, I'll bet it does, and I'll bet it happens regularly. There's always something new, something that supercedes a current idea, belief, abstraction, model, concept, sentiment, word or semantic in every field of interest. (Point to what does not or cannot change.)

Go-B is as right as anyone else on this thread. If you use Go-B's assumptions and criteria, he's right. If you use Largo's, he's right. If you use Jan's, she's right. If you use Ed's, he's right. Conventionally, none of those views can be compared, and they all end up at different places. Incommensurability.

In talking about about the reality of God, Religion, and Science, this thread says more about what and who we think we are.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
If you are go-be, and Jesus was not the son of God, and the Bible is just stories made up by man
Then he is Not Right, he is wrong

If there is No true enlightenment state attainable by humans,
nor the mind being somehow connected to an outer spiritual consciousness (or whatever Largo is trying to get without saying it),
then Largo is wrong

There is no being right about something, if the basic premise of your belief's are based on are not true

It is either, or
Your either right, or wrong, there is No real in between,
other than just being OK with being wrong, because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling.
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