Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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go-B

climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 20, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
I don't want to spoil the story but in the end God wins!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 20, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
Moosie,

good stuff. I have a hard time arguing against your drift, despite my atheistic inclinations.

or maybe i should say my agnostic inclinations. If the existence of god (or heaven) could be proven or not, I fail to see what difference it should make in terms of how we treat each other. As for following rule books, well, i'd say that anything that is written has to be taken with a grain of salt - or a hit of acid!

I'd love to hear what jesus would have to say about religion.




bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 20, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
f, if life begins at conception, then aborting a pregnancy at any point means terminating a life; terminating a life means killing; murder is the killing of an innocent; an unborn child cannot be guilty of committing any crime so killing an unborn child is tantamount to murder

abortion can be justified ONLY by arguing that life does not begin at conception, but this argument is illogical

Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
Sorry Booky
terminating a life before it is born is not murder
it is a decision made, for the best possible outcome for the person that has to care for a child
and if that mother cannot be a good mother, abortion is a good choice for her, and I support her decision

That is the logical conclusion
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
oh, Boy
this one sneaked by me
I don't want to spoil the story but in the end God wins!

Goobes, what does he win?
what do we lose?
we will all die, and .........

why do I do it?
sorry goobs, I was wrong, you are right
we all know you are truly blessed by Jesus, and you are floating on a carpet of love and prosperity
God Luck my friend
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 20, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
Hey Dr F. It is only logical if you believe that it isn't murder, or that you don't create negative karma which you will have to pay back. If you believe either of these things, then it becomes less logical.

Thanks Bruce for the kind words. I think Jesus would say that religion was mans attempt to know and follow God. He wouldn't say that religion represents God. God represents God. The book of revelations has some warnings to churches, saying that most have forgotten their first love. Simply going to church or saying something like "Jesus is my lord" is not sufficient to achieve salvation. One must put on the full wedding garment, which is the Christ mind. Few churches teach this, which is why the bible also says that the way is narrow, and few there are that find it.

Thankfully I do not accept modern Christianities belief that we only have one physical lifetime. We do only have one life, but it is outplayed in many physical lifetimes. Most folks on this planet have been here thousands of times. That time to return here does have an end, which is what the bible means when it talks about seasons, but that end is not in heaven or hell. Hell is a creation of man, not God. Hell is the karma each of us creates on this planet. God will not condemn us to eternal Hell. There is no eternal hell. This is another area that I disagree with the modern Christian church. haha..

There are three basic things that can happen to a soul. One is that if it hasn't put on the full Christ mind and its time isn't up, it is sent back here. Another is that it has put on the full Christ mind and achieves its ascension into heaven. The last is that its time is up, it will not bend the knee is service to Truth, and is sent to what is called the second death which is a dissolution of that souls energy and consciousness.

The one thing to be aware of is that Karma is cumulative. So each lifetime that one does not learn to love, learn to serve, and leave off the ways of carnal man, means that one can end up building up a lot of negative karma. That karma will be outpictured in ones future life in physical form. We do have many lifetimes in which to experiment in, but that isn't unending.

Most here will be back for another lifetime. The nature of that lifetime will depend on how much time you have left, what lessons your soul wants or needs to learn, and what kind of karma one has built up in previous lifetimes.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jan 20, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
f, if life begins at conception, then aborting a pregnancy at any point means terminating a life; terminating a life means killing; murder is the killing of an innocent; an unborn child cannot be guilty of committing any crime so killing an unborn child is tantamount to murder

abortion can be justified ONLY by arguing that life does not begin at conception, but this argument is illogical

Still waiting for your scientific proof that human life begins at conception. While you're working on that, perhaps you can also show me how the contrary view is "illogical."

And how do you know the "unborn child" (still legally classified as a fetus and therefore not entitled to any civil rights) is "innocent?"

Again, it's a deeply personal choice a woman and usually her male partner may find the need to make and there are myriad reasons why this should remain a choice. Religious morality has no legal ground in this debate.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 20, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
About 1/3 of pregnancies end in a natural miscarriage, mostly in the first 2 - 3 months. Does that mean that your god is a murderer? No wonder you, suap and your pals are so angry.

I don't know how others see this, but there is another way to understand this. As I understand it, natural miscarriages are a result of both the souls karma and the mothers karma. We were not intended to have miscarriages, but we do because of choices we have made in this and past lifetimes.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Plants, for an example produce 1000s of seeds
all the seeds are viable plants, all they need is to be cared for

99.9% die
WHY?, because they are not able to be cared for

Animals, the same,
1000s of eggs, 100s of offspring

Most die
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
Abortion is a wedge issue
like guns, gays, taxes

so many more,
while we get robbed of our rights, we are still arguing about abortion, Sharia Law, DADT, GCC, Obama- total BS

Its all bad
I agree on that

Is there any hope?
what can we do?
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jan 20, 2011 - 09:31pm PT
If you gave 1000 christians a detailed questionnaire about their faith, you'd get 1000 different answers. As far as I am concerned, that reinforces the notion that the past and present gods are just an idea. That's right, just an idea in man's head. I see no physical evidence for any of the gods. None of the gods have contacted me via telepathy. If any of the gods exist, they have not shown themselves to me in any fashion. Yet in the bible, Yahweh takes an active participation in events. The logical reason for the discrepancy is that god is just an idea and has no physical manifestation.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jan 20, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
Aww. I guess Booky doesn't want to play... Not surprising though. Haven't found anyone who can really present a logical opposing argument from the conservative xtian POV.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 09:53pm PT
one more word on an analogy comparable to abortion

I grow plants from seed
I may get 100 seeds, I expect 70% to germinate
and expect to get 20% to adulthood: IF I am Lucky, and provide extra super motherly care

otherwise they could all die in 1 hour of neglect, to sunny, too hot, too cold, too wet, too dry, some bugs found them, we dropped them

IT takes a lot of motherly care for any baby to survive, the ones that don't, are just a small part of the overall lose
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
I found this countdown started by a poster on another thread, I will continue on in his noble endeavor

How to prove God Does not exist!

Take every aspect known that concerns God, and go through each one, and prove that God has no effect on the claim,

After you have gone through every possible thing that God Could be, and proved that he does not have an effect on this or that, that these delusions do not exist, you have Hence-proven that God does not exist, right

Don't get your panties too bunched up, even if Science does Prove God doesn't exist, you can say you do not believe it, so everything stays they same

1) the World was created in 6 days-- wrong, all science says the universe is ~14 billion years old

2) Go-be says Jesus/God talks to him.-- Is Go-be special, is he some kind of alien that can tune into God, No, he is normal person, that may believe things he does not understand
I am normal, Jesus/God does not talk to me, I could say they did, but I would be deluding myself, so the answer is, Jesus/God does not talk to me, so God does not talk to Go-be

3) God created plants and animals through Intelligent Design-- Science has looked for any sign of living things being designed by an intellectual designer, and found no sign of it happening

In Fact, the opposite is true, all living things do not look, or act, or behave like they were designed, they are a hodgepodge of parts (which all living things share) that evolved to do different functions

The theory of anything being designed, before it has ever appeared, is false

A design of a fully functional something has never happened

Take the wrist watch, which some say I found on a beach

No anything could have ever built a watch from not knowing what the pre-watch was,
the only idea that is possible, is that the wrist watch evolved, from a sun dial, to a sand vial, to a big ass clock, to a clock you can fit on your wrist


The idea of watch that you can wear on your wrist, is a product of evolution,

Nothing has ever been designed from thin air, it is impossible
God could not say, I will design Humans, from my looks, and presto
Man appears, It just can not happen

It is impossible!!

4A) The Bible was written by God-- if God could write a book 2000 years ago,
He could also write more books, God has not written any other books.

Hence, believing the bible was written by God is False Belief, with zero evidence to back up the claim

4B) The Bible is not the word of God-- if God told us what to write 2000 years ago
He could also tell us now, and we will write a book of his words

God has not contacted us, and told us what to write in a new book, for 2000 years now!

Hence, believing that the bible is the word of God is False Belief, with zero evidence to back up the claim

5) Prayer is an effective way to..

Science has shown prayer to be ineffective

and studies have shown that being prayed for, may be worse than not being prayed for, since you lose hope, after you think people need to pray for you

Hence, praying to God is ineffective
God can not be reached nor activated by prayer
No prayer has ever been acted on by God

Hence praying to God is a False Belief

6) Where is God?? Everywhere??

Can God be everything, maybe
But you could then you can call God "Everything", and not God

If everything does have a conscious center, like a brain, that can be the God part, that does God like things, then Yes

No Conscious brain in the center of the Universe has been identified,
and the very possibility is impossible

So God Is Not everything, it is a false Belief

7) without God, humans would have no purpose, no moral compass, no compassion or love

this one is too easy, so I will just say "wrong", God is not needed for any of these things, animals do the same of everything, good and bad, that humans do
except World Wars, and some other stuff

8) Does God live in the Gaps, the spaces between the reality we can see--
anyone want to take this one on,
Bueler, Bueler...
WBraun

climber
Jan 20, 2011 - 11:00pm PT
That post above is like the loudmouth wanna bee who knows everything.

We see them at times in cafe and around flapping off their mouths.

We avoid them like the plague.

Thus they think we don't exist .....
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 11:13pm PT
I will take on 8)

8) Does God exist in the gaps, is he hidden from us in another dimension?

He could be, but when he does anything, he would have to expose himself,
anytime he intervened, or had an effect on humans, he would be coming out of the gaps, out of the hidden dimension

But when we look for these possible interventions,
they do not exist!!, never has any intervention been documented by someone considered a modern expert

How can God exist in the Gaps, and then not in the gaps, and stay completely hidden no matter what,


He exists? with zero evidence, 100% zero,
with all the claims of God being everything!!
There is nothing there

It is Impossible, so therefore a false belief
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 20, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
He could be, but when he does anything, he would have to expose himself,

According to you. Pretty funny argument Dr. F. You might be a great climber, but an argument is only as good as its weakest premise. You don't know that he would have to expose himself to do anything, plus you don't know if you would recognize or even see him if he did.
WBraun

climber
Jan 20, 2011 - 11:26pm PT
You can't see someone superior to you unless he reveals himself.

You can't demand and order someone superior to you.

This is all you do.

You can claim otherwise but your actions speak different.
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
I wish you could convince me of anything,
I'm not sure what your problems are, other than you hate thinking outside the box
Dr. F.

climber
So Cal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
Where is God?
I ask a simple question
you cannot answer
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