Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 22841 - 22860 of total 23243 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 22, 2014 - 02:21pm PT
AND, everything with an eyeball has a soul!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 22, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
I do, often. To point out reasons I cannot take a word of the bible seriously, at all, ever... What's the big deal to you? How you effected by my statements?



That's not at all true. Unless you are a psychopath with no empathy, there are many moral injunctions in the bible that are no doubt part of your own personal code. The fact that you didn't get them from the bible has nothing to do with "taking them seriously."

You simply have to give up the idea that you can do science or history on the bible, and open yourself up to other forms of data.

JL
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 22, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
You simply have to give up the idea that you can do science or history on the bible

Balderdash! Both can be done on the bible, you just have to have an open mind.

That's right, an open mind, about science.

DMT
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 22, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
It's amazing what logical lengths the religious will go through to justify judgement and avoidance of the reality of death - the central two tenets of their faith.

Do only fish with eyeballs have souls? What of cave fish who lack them?

Do the light sensing cilia of paramecia count as eyeballs? Is there a paramecium heaven, or do they occupy Human Heaven? Do those species of bacteria that respond to light have a soul, but those species that do not go without?

Where in the bible can I find out how to parse who gets a soul and who goes without?

This religious stuff can get complicated.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 22, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
The bible is the only book in the world immune from historical and archaeological study?

THAT'S AMAZING.
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Sep 22, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
'Filet of Soul'

Doctor Zefram Elgin Scott,
Programmed his surgical robot,
To dissect, deduce, and to plot,
To find the soul of man he thought,

With surgery of a specimen,
To find genetic origin,
Of mammon and his mortal sin,
To try and find the soul within,

He fell asleep but to his plus,
The robot operated thus,
On on genesis to exodus,
And organisms full of puss,

And when the doctor stirred from sleep,
What he saw made him start to weep,
His creditors to him would creep,
Filet of soul is never cheap.

Bushman
09/22/2014
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 22, 2014 - 04:48pm PT
If Christians put as much time and energy into objectively analyzing the dubious origins of their faith as they did interpreting it's nonsensical final product this discussion would be long over.

They simply choose not to peek under that rock. Ever.

WBraun

climber
Sep 22, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
A real Christian crushes rocks.

You pussies can't even lift one so what to speak of even looking under one .....
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 22, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
I lifted a rock off my leg once. I bellowed christian epithets while I did so, too! :)

DMT
WBraun

climber
Sep 22, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
Hahahaha ....

Ooooorahhhh !!!
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 22, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
“You simply have to give up the idea that you can do science or history on the bible, and open yourself up to other forms of data.”

What do all those biblical stories mean as metaphors?

What do all those terms mean metaphorically as opposed to a need for scientific absolutes or specific historical references?

(Glory, blood, covenant, grace, death, high, eternal, wisdom, love, judgement, evil, temptation, deliverance, sacrifice, lamb, heaven, power, awesome, eternal, resurrection, light, life, name, father, son, god, praise, surrender, holy, rock.)

What is the wisdom of a story like Job’s?

What does a virgin birth say to us metaphorically?

What is communicated psychologically by the crucifixion?

What does the notion of a heaven really say to us?

The bible is one of the great works of western literature and can be appreciated on so many levels. It stands, like the works of Homer, as part of the very foundation of western culture. Toss it as foolishness and you toss away wisdom. Take it as perfectly literal and wisdom is reduced to tendentious dogma. Understand its metaphors and find enlightenment.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 22, 2014 - 04:59pm PT
What does a virgin birth say to us metaphorically?


DO.... tell. What does it mean to me?

DMT
sullly

Gym climber
Sep 22, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
The Bible informs art and literature. Period. You don't have Steinbeck's East of Eden without Cain and Abel personified by the Trask brothers.

Kesey's Cuckoo's Nest offers up McMurphy as a Christ figure, crucified during electric shock therapy.

The Birds' "Turn!" recites the Bible as does the final page of Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 where the same "there is a season" passage is employed positively.







go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Sep 22, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
John 14:14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.


Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.


...i believe in Jesus! :)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 22, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
The bible is one of the great works of western literature and can be appreciated on so many levels. It stands, like the works of Homer, as part of the very foundation of western culture. Toss it as foolishness and you toss away wisdom. Take it as perfectly literal and wisdom is reduced to tendentious dogma. Understand its metaphors and find enlightenment.

This is categorically true. No question.
And well-spaked Paul
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 22, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
MacBeth and The Odyssey are great works of western literature.

The Bible is a Gordian knot of cobbled together scraps from a few surviving scraps of papyrus - propelled through history by a powerful, well funded PR campaign. It is a mess created by a very large committee spanning many generations. It's a best seller in the same sense that Samantha Steele is a best selling author - certainly not for its quality, veracity, nor wisdom, but, like a Harlequin Romance, because it delivers what the reader wants to hear - that death is avoidable.

Yes, it's often referenced in (much better) works of art and literature - after all, everyone knows its basic stories and themes, none of which are truly original.

And, bearing God's fingerprint, it carries with it the full weight of The Creator - and woe to anyone who fights that tide. It is, like most theistic religious tomes, largely a bludgeon.

There need be no God for humans to treat each other with empathy and kindness. That is perhaps the most tragic and tired myth of Christianity.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 22, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
I don't think the Christian bible is a work of art nor do I think of it as literature. It really is crappy scifi.

If that is the well spring of western civilization , well ... No wonder!

DMT
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 22, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
"It may seem frivolous to speak of a favorite book in the Bible but mine is Jonah, by far. A sly masterpiece of four brief chapters, Jonah reverberates in Herman Melville’s Moby-Dick, where it is the text for Father Mapple’s grand sermon. Tucked away in the Book of the Twelve, with such fierce prophets as Amos and Micah, Jonah is out of place. It should be with the Writings—Song of Songs, Job, Koheleth—because it too is a literary sublimity, almost the archetypal parable masking as short story. The irony of the J Writer* is renewed by the author of Jonah, who may well be composing a parody of the prophet Joel’s solemnities. Joel’s vision is of nature’s devastation: “the day of the locust.” Jonah’s counter-vision is of survival, dependent upon divine caprice." -HB

Gordian Knot? Romance Novel? Harold Bloom seems to differ with you, but what does he know? Yale is a school of fools after all.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 22, 2014 - 06:09pm PT
The western canon in general and the literary history of the west --in its fundamental entirety --cannot be understood without an intellectually disinterested and Scholarly appreciation of the Bible.
Period.

It is the height of political reductionism and a dismissively sophomoric mistake to view the Bible only through the lens of one's personal ax grinding and the current temper of the times.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 22, 2014 - 06:20pm PT
Now don't go all powder wig on us, Ward.

The literary mastery is wielded by Melville, not the authors of the story of Jonah.

Melville cleverly took an actual account of the destruction of a whaling ship by a cantankerous sperm whale and gave it anti-Biblical proportions by turning the lesson of Jonah on its head - Melville's cetacean Nineveh prevailed in the end, with his Jonah falling victim to his own obsession for revenge - and taking his ship down with him. Brilliance from A to Z...and the movie wasn't bad, either.

And that is the theme of today's conversation - the Bible has provided some seed corn (propelled by 2000 years of worldwide familiarity and faith) for recent literature that is truly great - but great literature it isn't, although it's not quite as unreadable as the Book of Mormon, which, aside from a recent Broadway hit, hasn't proven quite as inspirational.

Don't get me wrong, the Golden Rule is a valuable take away, but couched as it is in yet another tired end-of-the-world death cult, complete with escape from death for the worthy (otherwise the end-of-the-world thing is a AWFUL hard sell) - the end result is nonsense or worse.

Seed corn is seed corn, but it's not corn puddin'.
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