Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Social climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 4, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
To Jingy's ideas:

The stories in the Bible clarified or guided nothing? I seem to remember someone telling me that what is kosher IS healthier. Pork is not so good to lay about in one's intestines, and marrying one's cousin sometimes brings special heartache. We should plant in the spring for whatever religious reasons, and God's wrath has been attributed to women's bitchiness at certain times of the month. (Now I'm in for it!)

Who knows why things happen, or what's really what?

Ah, yes, . . . but science has much better predictions, more statistically valid. Course, not perfect, but close is close enough to be "useful."

So were many stories that were burnt into civilizations that helped them to thrive and prosper--as if thriving and prospering are necessarily "good". (I mean, which "groups" do you favor?)

Isn't it a matter of degrees to which one story (biblical?) or another story (a theory about something material) is predictive, useful, and arguable?

Apples and oranges, maybe, but hey, . . . they are still fruit.

Cling to what is good!
Sep 4, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
Jesus is our Savior and Messiah sent by God to redeem His people ...

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 51:16 I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’”

Daniel 9::24 “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; (FOR US!)

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”

32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

John 1:40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41 He *found first his own brother Simon and *said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which translated means Christ).

Matthew 11:2 Now when John, while imprisoned, heard of the works of Christ, he sent word by his disciples 3 and said to Him, “Are You the Expected One, or shall we look for someone else?” 4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you hear and see: 5 the blind receive sight and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”

John 4:25 The woman *said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.” 26 Jesus *said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

John 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 12:49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

John 17:8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

Hebrews 3:4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,

“Today if you hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me,
And saw My works for forty years.
10 “Therefore I was angry with this generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they did not know My ways’;
11 As I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”

12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, 15 while it is said,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”

16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief...

...Believe in Jesus! :)
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 4, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
MikeL if course it doesn't matter at all. You cannot have it both ways. Not in this (my) reality. Sorry!


Somewhere out there
Sep 5, 2014 - 08:59am PT
Largo - What is a real thing? See demonstration below.
If you can give me a time stamp for when you feel this family first exhibits the biblical wisdom you spoke of in an earlier post?

(I speculate this is unwise use of biblical wisdom)
Ah yes!… Hurray for Biblical wisdom!!!

 I am indeed throwing out the poetic sections baby out with the biblical wisdom bathwater, thank you. ( Edit: Please John, demonstrate the biblical wisdom you say I so desperately need when you undertake your public shaming of folks with views that differ from your own, or are not as deeply philosophical view as you), huh? You can dial down the aggression and zeal for diminishing my POV if you want.

It shows nothing about who you are as human beings.

Another Look Edit:
What can I do better to more clearly converse with JL?

I could give JL a more in depth view of my point of view…
I could provide a more subtle, nuanced description of my view…

John, when I look around and see the world preaching one thing from the bible….
Then clearly demonstrating another….
I stop and ask if this is right? Is this just? Is this the correct way to be?

I say no, but you can continue to point out is wrong with me for asking the questions that I do.
I contend that there is more to life than just we see, hear, touch, smell and taste… but 100% of the rest is within our minds…
I contend, the more nuanced the metaphor the more it will be misunderstood and misused by the misguided.

For instance, in church, there are no skeptic groups who question the validity of the bible or wether a god exists.
You ever wonder why that is?
Could the case be made that the church, using this book, wants to keep the reality of the real world out of the church as much as possible with a tightly held point of view that cannot be questioned? In other words, there is no way of matching the outside world with that that was being preached about from the pulpit.

Even if I was to point out to you that I originally wanted to become a better bible thumper by asking my questions so that I may better defend the bible to the non-believer… I feel you would still think I was one of the scholarly, educated types you seem to surround yourself with in your everyday life who just needs to be lambasted and name-called into agreeing with your superior point of view on the nuances of biblical wisdom…

But to me the church, and all leadership within the church, is and are or seem to be divorced from reality in a way that I cannot yet explain time, but I know an explanation is coming… I as a human have not discovered it yet.

if it were the case that instead of the name calling, Largo restated my position in a way that was acceptable to me and then respectfully stated a better position that I might be able to wrap my little, tiny, diminished and simple mind around? That seems like the smart thing to do to me… but then again… that’s asking too much, I know.

(I am very much evidence driven most often than not. If you could show me a string of discoveries that points in one direction, then offer theories, I will tend to favor the theory that has more evidence to back it…)

This may not be the best way of doing things, but it might get me to the table.
Honest, you asking me (you never asked) to move to the mind thread is ridiculous!!

“My sense of this is the same folks who balk about contemplative adventures on the "mind" thread are the same who tend to look at the entire bible in terms of something we can prove or disprove - can we imagine a more simplistic approach to literature?”

I don’t think my POV is the best POV… why do you think that the mind thread is so much better than this one…. I concede that your POV is bigger, better, more nuanced and better suited for verbal battle and more potent than mine... so.... who needs all the written masterbation? Plus, i'm not seeing any mention of the extraordinary brain advancements provided by the game play at Lumosity over on the Mind Thread.... ?

is your take on poetry and music?

Please do a little research on me for this. It's as easy as visiting the You Tube Gems, or are you listening to? threads....

You can gauge for yourself over there, then come back over here to reflexively provide us with your overly positive and always stunning spot on opinion of my musics... Oh, but please be nice, I have a lot of emotion tied onto my music selections.... They mean everything to me....

I lie, they mean nothing to me other than pieces of music I could imagine myself dying/flying to or just to contemplate a valueless life I have lived...

Sep 5, 2014 - 09:11am PT
marrying one's cousin sometimes brings special heartache.M/L

A simple question. Why was it necessary for us to hear from a talking snake that we should not marry our sister?

Where's the sense in that?

or in more direct words

These people were f.....g weird, if you know what I mean.

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 5, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
Jstan: Why was it necessary for us to hear from a talking snake that we should not marry our sister?

Help! Jan! Help!

The story you know today is not likely the story of old. Stories change and they get simplified so much that even their authors or characters don't recognize them. Yet, . . . it is likely that there is something archetypal in the rendition that triggers a species-consciousness that we can't quite explain or put our finger onto. Why do we all instinctively (as soon as we have any consciousness) fear dark and damp places?

If you get the message, then you can hang up the phone. Now move forward one step.

Boulder climber
Sep 5, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
The story you know today is not likely the story of old (MikeL)

And here we have one of the few benefits of growing old: Witnessing over the years the convolutions a story takes and how dramatically a contemporary version may differ from the original.


Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Sep 5, 2014 - 09:25pm PT
First of all, jstan has all the metaphors garbled.

The talking snake never said anything about sisters. As for whether the early Hebrews married sisters, there are different interpretations. First came Adam and Eve and they had sons Cain and Able, who as the King James version puts it, "took unto themselves wives". It seems pretty obvious to me that Adam and Eve are allegorical progenitors and represent the Hebrews only and that there were other wife providing humans around at the time. I have heard Christian fundamentalists argue however, that they actually married their sisters. The snake however, had nothing to do with it, at least in the Biblical story.

If you want to be a literalist and measure things then there's always the anthropological/ social science interpretation of the physical. The Torah/ Old Testament advises the Hebrews to marry their cousins so as to keep their meager wealth in the family. Jews and Christians have given this up but the Islamic world still practices it. The form of cousin marriage that they primarily practiced is what anthropologists call patrilateral parallel cousin marriage (the father's brother's children) which is statistically the rarest form. 1/3 of the world's people preferred to marry cousins until recent times and of that third, they preferred matrilateral cross cousins (the mother's brother's children) over all others 3 1/2 to 1.

There is an immense anthropological literature on all this and plenty of theorizing as to why it should be so. For those interested in the Bible or materialist explanations of things, or who just like like to theorize and measure, check out this anthro site on the kinship structure of the ancient Hebrews. http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/tutor/case_studies/hebrews/

At another level, exist the psychological interpretations, with the snake representing the unconscious mind. Freud would say the snake was the chosen symbol because sex dominates everything and snakes are phallic. A feminist psychologist would say that the story also seeks to blame women for everything as the Bible is a hopelessly patriarchal and chauvinist document, the only exception seeming to be the example and teaching of Jesus. And of course there are many more psychological interpretations, probably one each for every major school of psychological thought.

The Hindu and Buddhist gurus and an American psychic named Edgar Casey argue that the serpent represents the kundalini, a powerful spiritual force in humans that normally resides at the base of the spine.. If it is concentrated in the lower regions/chakras, you get the Adam and Eve effect and if in the higher ones, dreams or visions of a serpent can be the harbinger of higher levels of spiritual consciousness.

In any case, a simple story especially in a religious context is never just a simple story.And I guarantee you, that anyone looking at the materialist anthropological explanation won't find that simple either.


Sep 5, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
The story you know today is not likely the story of old. M/L

OK I get it. It is some more recent people who are f....g weird. There is some hope then they are so recent I can hold a living person responsible.

Now that I can work with. In that case these discussions should involve suggestions certain people should go get professional help. Now that feels,no, let me start over. Now I sentience that we have made some progress. Whoop-t-do!

You are a wizard M/L.

Oh c'mon. This is not the Jan I know. Willing to compartmentalize so ferociously you have no leg on which to stand? If you sleep with a snake, you are a snake. If you make a practice of rolling up small children using a story of a snake, so they will believe you- you are a snake.

You have no defense.

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Sep 5, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
And finally, I would challenge both science types and religious literalists to read a book written about the family stories from the book of Genesis, especially those involving Jacob and his wives, from a feminine point of view. Called The Red Tent it's fast flowing fiction and quite a different view, though all of it rang true to me as an anthropologist.Always there is more than one way of looking at things.


Sep 5, 2014 - 09:46pm PT

Good job on your previous post .....

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Sep 5, 2014 - 09:55pm PT
This is not the Jan I know. Willing to compartmentalize so ferociously you have no leg on which to stand? If you sleep with a snake, you are a snake.

Huh? Now I'm the one who doesn't get the metaphor.

If I had to choose only one interpretation however, I'd go with the more important one to me, and that is the view that the serpent represented a spiritual power within the body that was misunderstood and misused by Adam and Eve.

Sep 5, 2014 - 10:00pm PT
the serpent represented a spiritual power within the body that was misunderstood and misused by Adam and Eve.

and you want me to (xbelievex) think this is responsible treatment we may give small children?

That kind of stuff could give us adults whose brain wiring was all twisted up when they were a child.

There is a word for this. Pedophilia. In addition to the kind of systematic pedophilia that has already been admitted.

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Sep 5, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
Sorry but you've totally lost me.

There is no child in the Adam and Eve story and the kundalini isn't something that one talks about to children either.

And how any of this relates to pediphilia I have no idea even though I'm usualy pretty good at symbolism.

Maybe this will make more sense to me in the morning?

Sep 5, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
Jstan hasn't a clue what the kundalini is about.

The kundalini symbol is plastered all over in medical field and on ambulances also.

Good grief jstan.

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 5, 2014 - 10:44pm PT

Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Sep 6, 2014 - 12:38am PT
The hard part about choosing to face death and an unknown destiny alone and afraid without religion has always been a much too difficult path for many people. Believing in the idea of a benevolent god ushering one into the afterlife life is a much more comforting alternative to most.

It is only through living a full and thoroughly self reflective life that many of us are even afforded the opportunity to contemplate the myriad alternatives of religious and/or spiritual disciplines, philosophies, or experiences. The belief in the mythology of creation, wether it be shamanism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, or any of the other great religions of the world all require that one take a portion of their preferred religious or spiritual ideas on faith.
The belief that our views of reality can only deciphered and proven through the step by step scientific process requires a leap of faith or a risk also in that for example; to ask the question if the moon is a physical body of stone, ice, and gas or is it a spiritual body placed in the heavens by a creator was a considered heresy in our not too distant past.

Today there are those who would believe some, all, or none of such an argument but the point I'm trying to make here is while all such exercises of belief or conviction might be valid to those who practice or conjecture them, others whose lives have been unceremoniously cut short were not afforded as much of the opportunity to do so. Yet all to some degree might have contributed to the mass collective diatribe of what might be defined as the human condition. Considering these points, would it be too far fetched to entertain the idea that we as a species are of an as yet untapped collective consciousness, un-evolved to the potential of telepathy and a worldwide cooperative?

This idea threatens in many our sense of individuality and personal freedom, but might prove in the long run a much less dangerous alternative to self extinction through war, destruction of our ecosystem, pandemics, or meteorological and cosmic catastrophes requiring technologies we have yet to develop in order to survive. Would not these goals (the continued survival of life from earth) be an extension of the more introspective to date development of mind?

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 6, 2014 - 01:27am PT
Science doesn't Truely know how the moon was hung there, besides, my question is why.

Yet all to some degree might have contributed to the mass collective diatribe of what might be defined as the human condition. Considering these points, would it be too far fetched to entertain the idea that we as a species are of an as yet untapped collective consciousness, un-evolved to the potential of telepathy and a worldwide cooperative?

With the advent of the Internet, praying Christians are becoming aware of a worldwide cooperative. .

Wishing upon a star can come true, but what's really important is today, ain't it? And maybe tomorrow.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 6, 2014 - 05:30am PT
would it be too far fetched to entertain the idea that we as a species are of an as yet untapped collective consciousness, un-evolved to the potential of telepathy and a worldwide cooperative?

Yes, too far fetched. Homo Technologus will lead the way. Homo Sapain?

Toooooooooo violent.


Cling to what is good!
Sep 6, 2014 - 05:47am PT

There is only one Lord God, Jesus Christ His Son, and Holy Spirit of us all...

John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John
Credit: go-B
Credit: go-B
Credit: go-B

...Come join the heavenly throng! :)
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