Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 4, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
Bees have been regarded as astute engineers because they build hexagons, which have the greatest strength for a given amount of material.

Aliens from other worlds are likewise astute engineers---as is apparent in this classic 1953 3-D documentary about a form of extraterrestrial life that builds hexagonally-based spaceships:



The Tetrahedron also has 6 edges:

Credit: Ward Trotter

A very stable structure---as Bucky Fuller tirelessly pointed out.

http://hexnet.org
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 4, 2014 - 03:55pm PT

All His Benefits

Praise the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits,
Who forgives all your sin, and heals all you diseases.

Who redeems your life from the pit,
And crowns you with love and compassion;
Who satisfies your desires with good things,
So that your youth is renewed like the eagles.

Praise the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits,
Who forgives all your sin, and heals all you diseases.

Who redeems your life from the pit,
And crowns you with love and compassion;
Who satisfies your desires with good things,
So that your youth is renewed like the eagles.

Praise the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits,
Who forgives all your sin, and heals all you diseases.




Psalm 103

Praise for the Lord’s Mercies

A Psalm of David.

1 Bless the Lord, O my soul;
And all that is within me, bless His holy name!
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul,
And forget not all His benefits:
3 Who forgives all your iniquities,
Who heals all your diseases,
4 Who redeems your life from destruction,
Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies,
5 Who satisfies your mouth with good things,
So that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.

6 The Lord executes righteousness
And justice for all who are oppressed.
7 He made known His ways to Moses,
His acts to the children of Israel.
8 The Lord is merciful and gracious,
Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
9 He will not always strive with us,
Nor will He keep His anger forever.
10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
Nor punished us according to our iniquities.

11 For as the heavens are high above the earth,
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
12 As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
13 As a father pities his children,
So the Lord pities those who fear Him.
14 For He knows our frame;
He remembers that we are dust.

15 As for man, his days are like grass;
As a flower of the field, so he flourishes.
16 For the wind passes over it, and it is gone,
And its place remembers it no more.
17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting
On those who fear Him,
And His righteousness to children’s children,
18 To such as keep His covenant,
And to those who remember His commandments to do them.

19 The Lord has established His throne in heaven,
And His kingdom rules over all.

20 Bless the Lord, you His angels,
Who excel in strength, who do His word,
Heeding the voice of His word.
21 Bless the Lord, all you His hosts,
You ministers of His, who do His pleasure.
22 Bless the Lord, all His works,
In all places of His dominion.

Bless the Lord, O my soul!




2 Timothy 2:11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.



...Don't be a dope, for there's no hope without Jesus! :)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 4, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
TVash said: You define sentience as something other than thoughts and feelings (and I'd add subconscious decisions which may result in physical action or simply inform thoughts and feelings). I do not. Therefore, I don't see a problem.



The challenge you have here is that what I am saying and to a great extent what Mike is saying is not derived from speculating on what thoughts, sentience and awareness is, but is a direct result from doing exercises so you can find out for yourself directly and empirically. Lest you spent time doing those exercises, you wouldn't have the empirical experiential data to know otherwise, and you would quite naturally believe exactly as you do: that sentience, thoughts and feelings are synonymous.

Later, after a bike ride, I'll lay out a simple exercise we use when teaching this stuff, and that should make this pretty clear and remove all doubt that sentience and content (people, places, things and phenomenon) are not selfsame.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 4, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
MHz:
From the link you provided:

We report that the cells in a natural honeybee comb have a circular shape at ‘birth’ but quickly transform into the familiar rounded hexagonal shape, while the comb is being built. The mechanism for this transformation is the flow of molten visco-elastic wax near the triple junction between the neighbouring circular cells. The flow may be unconstrained or constrained by the unmolten wax away from the junction. The heat for melting the wax is provided by the ‘hot’ worker bees.

Correct me if I am wrong but if the above is correct it appears honeybees are involved in a sort of dynamic ablative engineering construction which could amount to a form of tool usage.
The bees save a tremendous amount of time and energy by allowing the waste heat from their bodies to heat the wax to flow into the triple junctions of adjacent circles thus creating the incipient hexagonal prism ( rhombic dodecahedron) which is the clear result and is optimal for their purposes.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 4, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
Purposeful bees and sentient hives, oh my.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 4, 2014 - 04:45pm PT
Purposeful bees and sentient hives, oh my.

And dogs that play with hexagon toys...

Credit: Ward Trotter

Actually, my dog , being a Border Collie, knows more math than I do.

My Collie cannot count to 18 like this one, but close:



Actually the dog keeps chomping like that until he sees a cue from his master to stop.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 4, 2014 - 05:00pm PT

Correct me if I am wrong but if the above is correct it appears honeybees are involved in a sort of dynamic ablative engineering construction which could amount to a form of tool usage.

Bees using tools oh my! That equates to Bees useing science oh my?

Nature observing Nature! Huh.... Gee Wiz, We should try that?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 4, 2014 - 05:02pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#356457
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 4, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
^^^ "The Hard Truth" comes by way of Faith.

It's easy to believe what you think you know.

Believing what you think you know is the comforting fantasy.

BB
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
May 4, 2014 - 05:58pm PT
A minor divertissement . . .

When seen through Zen
The world we know
From quantum flux
doth seem to flow

Just as the sun
sets on the seas
we watch in vain
as reason flees

The sleepers dream
and sit so still
while Earth succumbs
to those with will

Jake the Corgi
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
May 4, 2014 - 07:55pm PT
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 4, 2014 - 08:02pm PT
what are you jabbering about now BB
MH2

climber
May 4, 2014 - 09:32pm PT
'I arf therefore I am' Jake surprises.
jstan

climber
May 4, 2014 - 11:25pm PT
"The Hard Truth" comes by way of Faith.

It's easy to believe what you think you know.

Believing what you think you know is the comforting fantasy.


This wins first prize. It has been a hell of a contest.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 5, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
Separating out sentience from content (thoughts, feelings, memories, objects, pit bulls, etc.) is part of the empirical meditative process. Without the direct experience of observing, you’ll invariably end up like Descartes, with his “Cartesian Theater,” imaged as an inner place in the brain where all conscious thought is presented on an inner mental stage or screen for simultaneous viewing. This requires a homunculus or little aware man who is observing the screen, which raises the question: to whom does the homunculus report? Some feel they can only square this problem with yet another homunculus, on and on, each one reporting to the next on down the line, ad infinitum. None of this is correct, and in fact is simply more reductive thinking, which can only posit things one way.

There is no fixed screen, only a borderless, non-local field, and no little man observing, there is just observation – facts our discursive mind struggle with untill we see it all directly.

The basic exercise is simple in form, but not easy to do - meaning it is a practice, NOT a one-off exercise.

Just imagine your mind as a room and the people, places, things and phenomenon we encounter in life as the furnishings in the room. Over time, we slowly start releasing our attachments to the furniture, so to speak, till the room is basically empty. That’s not to say there is nothing going on in our heads or in our field of awareness, but we have broken our trance of attachment to the stuff in our minds, effectively opening up an empty mental space.

Normally we are like the teen on the corner glued to his cell phone – except we are glued to our thoughts and impressions etc. This room-emptying exercise teaches us to put the phone down for a half hour and pay attention while releasing our attachments to stuff. Once the room or our mind is empty (our awareness is no longer fused to any content), we nevertheless are still there, probably more present than we have ever been, sans our thoughts and feelings and so forth.

What is left here, above and beyond content, is not a thing or object (making it ungraspable in the normal sense of the word), but sentience/presence itself.

But this usually takes a while to stabilize, for all the trance states associated with content fusion to slowly dissolve, and to get some clarity that sentience and content are not the selfsame – an insight totally impossible from a discursive perspective.

JL
MH2

climber
May 5, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
Such a complicated way to say a simple thing.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 5, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
Such a complicated way to say a simple thing.


You have just called Tvash a fool, MH2, for not already seeing such a "simple thing." And everyone else who never saw what you claim to have seen. These snide comments are not helpful to anyone's understanding - and I'm not the first one to tell you that, we may be sure.

The bulk of humanity need ways and means to see a different perspective. I would be interested in hearing how you arrived at your observation about sentience which differs so much from Tvash and others, and the "simple" way that you arrived at same, understanding as we do that you cannot arrive at this discursively.

JL
jstan

climber
May 5, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
Separating out sentience from content (thoughts, feelings, memories, objects, pit bulls, etc.) is part of the empirical meditative process.

The basic exercise is simple in form, but not easy to do - meaning it is a practice, NOT a one-off exercise.

What is the nature of this process? Once the room of our mind is empty (our awareness is no longer fused to any content), we nevertheless are still there. This usually takes a while to stabilize, for all the trance states associated with content fusion to slowly dissolve and no longer be apparent.

What is left here but sentience/presence itself?

We nevertheless are still there.

Only because we have sentience.

So sentience is a residue. And there is no way to tell whether one person's residue is in any way like that belonging to another. It is fully personal and incomparable.


To make an exposition of an entirely personal thing

you really do have to take out all personal flourishes.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
May 5, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
Sorry for a bit of thread drift.

One thing I've been pondering lately the way God (in the Deist sense) has set everything up for optimization.

Not only is biological evolution leading to more advanced and optimized beings, but there was an evolution of the universe itself from simple hot gases, to the first stars, to our perhaps 3rd generation solar system with the complex elements needed for life (as we know it).

I'm seeing the meaning of life, nay the meaning of the universe, in that simple realization. Given that it's no surprise that self actualization is so satisfying and just feels right.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 5, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
Only because we have sentience.

So sentience is a residue. And there is no way to tell whether one person's residue is in any way like that belonging to another. It is fully personal and incomparable.


To make an exposition of an entirely personal thing

you really do have to take out all personal flourishes.
---


John, I said at the outset that you would never get this discursively. Impossible. What I am putting out there is not a concept or idea.

For starters, you are imagining sentience as a residue of something else. You are trying to imagine sentience as a thing (residue), or some other form of content, whereas I have said it is NOT a thing in the regular sense of the word.

In fact sentience itself is entirely IMPERSONAL. It is simply the irreducible brute presence of being there. Taking out "personal flourishes" is the process of removing our attachments to the stuff in the metaphorical room of our mind. What's left is not residue of the room, or content in any way shape or form, since sentience itself has no shape or form - something made clear if you did the exercise. But IME, not one second before.

Put differently, "residue" is just another concept in the "room," whereas sentience is entirely ungraspible.

Or: When you say: To make an exposition of an entirely personal thing, you really do have to take out all personal flourishes.

The challenge here is to try and communicate an aspect of reality that is not a thing - personal or otherwise. In my experience, this is not really possible discursively, the language of which is things, discrete objects, stuff. What makes this so fascinating is that sentience, once you encounter it "neat," so to speak, is our most fundamental human reality, that which lies under all the stuff, but it is, as John says, entirely "incomparable" to any thing we can frame with words or symbols or numbers. This would hardly be worth bothering over till you realize that the entire world of things and all we know and imagine is all thanks to this slippery phenomenon called sentience.


JL
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