Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 21321 - 21340 of total 22641 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 3, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
My part of the discussion has focused only on explanations of the workings of the universe, not personal journeys of exploration. No one has equated meditation with magic here.

It has been shown that amino acids can be synthesized in interstellar amorphous ice bathed in the radiation of nearby stars. The amorphous crystalline structure, unlike the ice we know, offers pathways for molecules to migrate and combine to form these organic molecules.

This ice was brought to earth in huge quantities via comets strikes. It's been estimated that far more organic compounds came from space than earth.

Our universe doesn't default to anything. It appears to have only one trajectory - the way things are. Life is one of those things.

Defaulting requires more than one path. The universe is no more biased to life than it is to anything else it contains.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 3, 2014 - 09:47pm PT

HEADED FOR ZION TOMORROW THO BITCHES.

Sweet! What are you going to do?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Apr 3, 2014 - 09:54pm PT
"Our universe doesn't default to anything. It appears to have only one trajectory - the way things are. Life is one of those things."


You have know way of "knowing" if that trajectory is the only possible trajectory or not... it could most certainly be the "default" or most likely trajectory.

As all possibilities are just that: possible.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 3, 2014 - 10:10pm PT

Yes, well I wouldn't get too wet as it wasn't meant as a compliment.

HaHaHaHaHaHa. I wondered what he was think'in?

None of this would be any good without a few belly laughs !
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 4, 2014 - 12:34am PT
Hands clapping! )(
That was a real nice couple of pages of spit swapping Ladies and Gentlemen (and Fruity too)!!

For what it's worth, maybe the "Naturalistic" approach can go a little like this?
Today science is going 900mph in fifth gear! Focused straight ahead because everything out the side windows is blurry. Science has brought us sOO many conveniences with the discovery of oil. People love it! And there's no turning back now. But with a half of century of hindsight we are able to see the side effects. And they look grim. From the burning of fuel changing the climate, to the horrendous devastation of oil spills, to all the plastic trash floating around in the oceans. We can't blame science for these atrocities, we can only hope they can solve the problems before its to late. Today's scientific model seems to be forward progression and let future generations deal with the problems. Maybe a naturalistic approach would take more consideration for the planet and our children's future over our life of luxury?

Or, maybe science can jus build us some flying robots that we can plug our sentience into so we could jus leave these vulnerable bags of water in a jar? Avatar anyone?
MH2

climber
Apr 4, 2014 - 12:59am PT
Because of the consciousness issue and Largo talking about how your awareness is limited to where you are I wondered about military drone pilots and what they experience. Apparently it can be weird.





When you are sitting in the box flying one of these things, you lose sense of the fact you are sitting in Nevada. You get so into what's going on.... You completely lose track of the fact that you are sitting in a Conex box, sitting in Las Vegas. You are pitch in the middle of this battle.... You're talking to the in-bounds; you're talking to the air controller; you're talking to the guy that's being shot at; you're trying to coordinate with the Pentagon; you're trying to coordinate with the combined operations center there in Qatar. Then all of a sudden the door opens on the box, and the next pilot and sensor operator walk in. And it's like, "Oh my god... I'm not in Afghanistan." It's bizarre—extremely strange.

http://gizmodo.com/hear-what-a-day-in-the-life-of-a-drone-pilot-is-really-1445084537/all




BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 4, 2014 - 02:12am PT
^^^ YEA! Take away vision and the mind and body are almost uncontrollable.
I wonder if a born blind person has an abundance of balance?

I have a private pilots license. I started practicing for a instrument rating. That required flying the plane with a hood on ur head which prohibits vision outside of the cockpit. Anyway, after a couple go arounds we decided I would fly from Santa Ynez to Santa Barbara. Well when I almost ran into Ronnie Reagan's house, Vandenberg tower notified me I was in restricted airspace. I looked out the window and I was so close I could see drinking glasses on the patio.
The entire time under the hood every turn and change of altitude felt as though they jus kept continuing. I never felt level or stable. By time we reached SB approach, I could of swore we were upside down. I threw off the hood and threw up, all the way until the instructor turned off the engine and I got out and laid on the tarmac. I tried again, but the sensations rose instantly.
Never did get that rating. Thus ending my commercial pilot career..
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 4, 2014 - 10:28am PT
Desert Shield, Dark Side of the Moon, Spaceshot, Touchstone among others are on the list.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZion!

Divers are taught to follow the bubbles for the aforementioned reasons.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 4, 2014 - 10:34am PT
All of humanity's observations throughout history provides at least some evidence that our universe has one trajectory and does not choose. Conversely - zero observations to the contrary would indicate the same.

In other space news - new gravitational evidence of a subterranean ocean the size of Lake Superior under the South Pole of Enceladus may add yet another planet in our solar system to the list of possible candidates for harboring life. Sun warmed life may well be the exception, not the rule, in the universe.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 4, 2014 - 11:08am PT
Nice list Tvash I've done a few few of those. Superfun Zion is!

Science and technology are now saying that we unconsciously make decisions up to 10 seconds before we actually act. They see this through brain scans. It reminds me of being in the flow and jus doing, instead of thinking.



Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 4, 2014 - 11:22am PT
This is in line with my thinking that our conscious awareness - active 'train of thought' is actually a generated by a neural network that acts as a 'viewer' that 'plays' our train of thought after the fact - and that the conscious feedback between our thoughts, which seemingly aren't 'real', and the actions which interact with the physical universe is actually a deja vu like illusion.

Thus, our brain operates like a complex decision engine that 'scores' potential future thoughts based on a variety of inputs below the level of awareness - short and long term memories, emotions, sensory inputs, decides what to 'think' next, applies a variety of filters to that result so we don't go insane, then informs our conscious train of thought viewing engine with the result.

Picture flying a robot chopper flying over a hilly landscape and trying to land on the highest hill. Now slap pontoons on that chopper and change those hills into moving ocean waves. Add a bit of swirling wind. Now, instead of a 3 D dynamic landscape, make it an N dimensional dynamic landscape, where N can be very large or not so large, depending on the particularly situation. Now picture a fleet of robot choppers all feeding into the same viewing screen...

Given the variability, complexity and dynamism of this scoring/decision engine - everybody still gets to be unique snowflake. That it's all really happening below our level of awareness doesn't change the existence or workings of 'free will' at all.

This does assign consciousness to the level of just another physical process - and brings us a bit closer to those lowly jellyfish than some would be comfortable with.

Me? I like jellyfish. 500 million years. Respect.

WBraun

climber
Apr 4, 2014 - 11:40am PT
That's all total speculative guessing which you only do as your first line says.

Tvash -- "This is in line with my thinking ...."

You ultimately do not have complete and total proof of the source of consciousness.

The actual source of consciousness must first be positivity determined.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Apr 4, 2014 - 11:42am PT
positivity determined.

bloody scientists. Always running around determining sh#t.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Apr 4, 2014 - 11:44am PT
It won't be navel gazers nor mystics that unlock the source of consciousness that's for freakin sure.

DMT
WBraun

climber
Apr 4, 2014 - 11:45am PT
It's already been done.

It's modern science that is completely still in the dark ......
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Apr 4, 2014 - 11:46am PT
Got any meat on that bone? ;)

DMT
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 4, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
Wait - I didn't just create a definitive theory of Consciousness on the Taco?

I'm not sure how my ego's going to survive this one.

Back to the component approach to discovering the source of life - the approach some researchers have taken follows the auto plant analogy - if you want to know what's in a car, you remove the workers who build it, one by one, and observe what's missing as the cars squirt out the end of the assembly line. Eventually, you get down to the point where the car simply doesn't run - it's can no longer be considered a 'car'. In this manner, you can determine what is the simplest possible car that actually performs a car's most basic, defining functions.

In this way, researchers have observed 'living' organisms with as few as 48 base pairs. No, these researchers can't yet build such organisms from scratch that was the primordial soup, but such evidence, when combined other experimental results, strongly support the idea that life assembled itself over time in a thermodynamically kosher manner through a process first of chemical, then biological evolution using raw materials and energy sources available on earth (or Mars, etc, if panspermia is your thing - doesn't matter with regards to the basics of the theory, really).

Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 4, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
I was too tired to respond to fructose yesterday so I decided to do it this morning, only to discover that he had removed his posts ??

Meanwhile a few more details.

Homonins have spent 99% % of their time as hunters and gatherers and major new tool traditions occurred only every million years or so, indicating that until very recently, we were very conservative rather than innovative. Observing modern day hunters and gatherers, we estimate they need about 1 square mile per person to survive with that life style. Projecting backwards, we see that about the time the human population had reached that point, they finally domesticated animals, a mere 10,000 years ago.How much easier to lead your food supply around by a rope than chase it down with a spear? One wonders that it took so long.

The next really big invention was plow agriculture which allowed the food supply to be increased exponentially and resulted in the leisure time that allowed the growth of "civilization". This lasted another 8,000 years until the industrial revolution with its exploitation of fossil fuels.

Currently we put 6.4 calories of petroleum products into producing 1 calorie of food which is clearly not sustainable in the long run but so far we show no signs of doing much about this, no doubt because we are not desperate enough yet.

In terms of evolution, it's hard to say what the outcome will be - high tech or survivalism? If we end up reverting to a much lower standard of living, then it's almost guaranteed we will do a lot of navel gazing. If we merely simplify to conserve energy we will need a philosophy to do this and I'm betting the traditional religious and philosophical ones will be used again.

Only if we somehow pull off another technological miracle involving massive amounts of cheap energy, does it seem likely that we will go on to the secularized utopia predicted by some.Human behavior being notoriously difficult to predict however, who really knows? Extrapolating from physics and chemistry doesn't take one very far in the world of social science.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Apr 4, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Everyone should just delete all prior posts, saving future paleo-readers a lot of time.

Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 4, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
Don't throw away the sciene books however, in case they might eventually evolve back up to needing them!
Messages 21321 - 21340 of total 22641 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews