Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 21081 - 21100 of total 22772 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
PSP, thank you for your concise and appropriate replies.


;>)
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
I have an inherent and deep mistrust of evangelicals (that should be patently apparent lol). Nothing personal toward you Talking Meditators! Please do carry on!

Having grown up in the south and getting taken by Hari Krishas in O'Hara at the tender age of 18?

I hold a grudge.... krishna krishna.

So be it.

DMT
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Feb 21, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
Evangelical meditators . . . I like the sound of that. Having been a child in the deep south in the 1940s and 1950s I was around a number of evangelical Baptists, most of whom were decent people. However, the obsession with a religious (spiritual) cause is tiring to endure.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Feb 21, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
Floating Leaf Problem for  F&#40;z,t&#41;=z+exp&#40;zt&#41;
Floating Leaf Problem for F(z,t)=z+exp(zt)
Credit: jgill

I found a simple way to solve the floating leaf problem (select a location on a turbulent pond (red blob) , then find another point (blue blob) where if one places a leaf, it will end up at the chosen location in exactly one minute). Turns out you don't need all the approximations I used before. This is the fun in exploring mathematics, the revelations that come to you. It's like discovering a new way to climb a pitch. (but this problem is more a 5.8 in math terms)

;>)
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Feb 21, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
One of my enduring memories of this thread will always be of the terrible experience with religion so many of you have had and your subsequent revulsion against it. I could have similar feelings about a certain race that I have been assaulted and exploited by, but I don't. How I overcame those feelings was through meditation. I think it would work with religious trauma as well.

Another observation not directed at any one specifically and not meant in malice, is that the analogy of the language of physics being math not English, seems highly relevant here as well. All I know of physics is thanks to Asimov, the lecture series for non majors by Weinberg,talks with Frank Sacherer, and occasional articles in popular science magazines. Based on this, I wouldn't dream of declaring that I understand physics, or have the right to criticze theories or physicists for believing in one theory or another.

I think the discursive thinkers believing they understand meditation and can critize it accurately, seems to me to be just as inappropriate as me pontificating on physics.

That said, as an anthropologist I also shudder whenever I hear anyone talk about "the truth". There may be scientific principles that are true, but any general observation of human behavior will have an exception somewhere and every human circumstance a time when a general truths do not apply.



Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Feb 21, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
I think the discursive thinkers believing they understand meditation and can critize it accurately, seems to me to be just as inappropriate as me pontificating on physics.

You make an excellent point, gently.

Thank you
DMT
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Feb 21, 2014 - 08:12pm PT
One of my enduring memories of this thread will always be of the terrible experience with religion so many of you have had and your subsequent revulsion against it (Jan)

I'm not one of those. My experiences were actually very loving, but I moved on in time.

I don't claim to know about the experience of nothingness JL has spoken of many times, even though I have had some meditative adventures. But I feel I am on safe ground in thinking it is possibly an illusion - which is what I suspect my own, milder experiences were. JL and others may very well criticize science or mathematics . . . doesn't bother me particularly. I'll just reply as I've done if the spirit moves me.

This thread should be a little enlightening as well as entertaining and if non-scientists wish to express their opinions critical of scientific achievements, well, it's fun to read them and maybe present opposing opinions. We are not splitting the atom here, nor are we validating an ultimate truth about the nature of consciousness. It's all entertainment.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 21, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
also, why is it important to meditators that non meditators experience it?

psychologically, is the reason evangelical, ie...the same reason for example that people go out and knock on doors with their focus being that others will join them in religious revelation and thus feel really good about themselves as the door knockers do?


It isn't important that anyone experience it, save for the ones who hear the call. Few do. The reasons to go past the discursive are formidable, the number one probably being the discursive's demand to provide discursive motivation to go past it. That's a certain way to stay exactly where you on, never roping up and even cranking the first move. We call that the discursive vortex. There's no exit, and that's the point.

Meditation is spread through attraction, not promotion. If I was promoting I wouldn't raze people or turn the tables on the smug scientific approach of many and point out the woo in a physicalists arguments. And the whole crazy moon diversion showed that woo in simple English. Describe the "moon" in a way not requiring an observer and which is not an observation but an objective fact. No cogent answer is forthcoming.

For the few who are attracted to using their minds in ways beyond the discursive, the ideas will attract their imaginations.

As we always say in the experiential adventures: Take what you want and leave the rest. And especially leave the idea that quiet internal listening is a religion. That's a wild guess, not based on any direct, empirical evidence. Why take anyone's word for it. We never did, and were never asked to. That's the practice. Find out for yourself.

Or hang onto your "moon" for dear life and believe what you've always believed.

JL

jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Feb 21, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
That's a certain way to stay exactly where you on, never roping up and even cranking the first move (JL) . . . quaking in fear?

Your strategy, perhaps appropriate in middle school, of implying one is somehow cowardly if they do not take the meditative plunge is becoming a bit tiring. Just MHO. Try another analogy.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
What does it matter? Why should we care? Does anything get any better?

A chant . . . .


To be a full human being, one needs to bring all resources to bear. Not only are there cognitive capabilities, there are also emotional and physical capabilities--and possibly others. Full living is full presence and engagement. To be psychologically present in the world, you need to be attentive, connected, integrated as a person, and focused in whatever it is that your apparent role calls out to you. (You figure this out.) When with anything, you are physically grounded, connected to others empathetically, exhibiting yourself fully, and authentic--now.

When all of this comes together, a person is fully alive to and in a particular situation.

One needs to get whole. That can be difficult when there is a multitude of voices, ideas, energies, and feelings going on inside. At times it can seem that absenting parts of oneself is a safer path (less vulnerability, less risk).

Internal struggles with personal issues seem the norm for everyone. Finding and keeping a full psychological presence is exhausting. Yet, when it occurs, people put on the most energetic performances that flow into truly full personal engagements. It's all about depth--how much of a person becomes accessible in the moment. It a gift that is a person's to bestow.
MH2

climber
Feb 21, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
And especially leave the idea that quiet internal listening is a religion. (JL)


You get a lot wrong, JL. It is your stance of certainty, your proselytizing, and your evangelizing of meditation that have overtones of organized religion. I have not seen anyone suggest on this thread that quiet internal listening is a religion.
MH2

climber
Feb 21, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
jgill,

Is there a point on the turbulent pond where the leaf will end up where it started in 1 minute?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Feb 21, 2014 - 09:24pm PT
Internal struggles with personal issues seem the norm for everyone. Finding and keeping a full psychological presence is exhausting. Yet, when it occurs, people put on the most energetic performances that flow into truly full personal engagements. It's all about depth--how much of a person becomes accessible in the moment. It a gift that is a person's to bestow.

Eloquently stated.

I don't know what the hell you were talking about but it seemed passionately delivered.

jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Feb 21, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
Andy, that's an interesting question. I'll have to think about it a bit. Possibly in some time-dependent vector fields - I'm not sure about this one. That could be a sort of fixed point that would repel on one side and attract on the other. It's true I am doing iterations with these curves I call Zeno contours, but there is no contraction in the usual sense.

Thanks for giving an old man something to ponder!


;>)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2014 - 09:59pm PT

One of my enduring memories of this thread will always be of the terrible experience with religion so many of you have had and your subsequent revulsion against it.

Maybe it wasn't so much the religion, but the religionists on the front?
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Feb 21, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
Is there a point on the turbulent pond where the leaf will end up where it started in 1 minute? (MH2)

z&#40;0&#41;=z&#40;1&#41;:  F&#40;z,t&#41;=z-2&#960Sin&#40;2&#960t&#41;+4&#40;2t-1&#41;i
z(0)=z(1): F(z,t)=z-2πSin(2πt)+4(2t-1)i
Credit: jgill

Trivial, but in this time-dependent vector field the voyage of the leaf starts at the blue circles, travels a ways then returns to the starting point at one minute.


;>)
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Feb 21, 2014 - 11:40pm PT

Maybe it wasn't so much the religion, but the religionists on the front?


I got an insight from Ward's post in which he said the true believers in most religions will be found in monastaries and the politicians and economists in the hierarchy.I had always thought the Inquisition for example, was waged by true believers, but after mulling it over, I think Ward was right, that was just used as an excuse for power.

Interesting to contemplate the modern jihadis along those lines also.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Feb 21, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
And for jgill, I haven't got a clue what your math is, but I love your beautiful diagrams. Has anyone thought of trying to teach math with those kinds of illustrations?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Feb 21, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
Or hang onto your "moon" for dear life and believe what you've always believed.

It's not of question of hanging on to "my" moon at all ---or believing anything for dear life, as if it were a desperate endeavor. The moon simply exists , and it exists not strictly because of an observer , as I have illustrated time and again, but it exists in and of itself , independent of an observer.
The moon orbited the Earth long before a human observer came upon the scene. The unassailable proof I have provided has demolished your faulty argument that the moon requires an observer to exist.
Jeeeez
Case closed.


“The moon is a loyal companion.
It never leaves. It’s always there, watching, steadfast, knowing us in our light and dark moments, changing forever just as we do. Every day it’s a different version of itself. Sometimes weak and wan, sometimes strong and full of light. The moon understands what it means to be human.
Uncertain. Alone. Cratered by imperfections.”
― Tahereh Mafi, Shatter Me


“Her antiquity in preceding and surviving succeeding tellurian generations: her nocturnal predominance: her satellitic dependence: her luminary reflection: her constancy under all her phases, rising and setting by her appointed times, waxing and waning: the forced invariability of her aspect: her indeterminate response to inaffirmative interrogation: her potency over effluent and refluent waters: her power to enamour, to mortify, to invest with beauty, to render insane, to incite to and aid delinquency: the tranquil inscrutability of her visage: the terribility of her isolated dominant resplendent propinquity: her omens of tempest and of calm: the stimulation of her light, her motion and her presence: the admonition of her craters, her arid seas, her silence: her splendour, when visible: her attraction, when invisible.”
― James Joyce, Ulysses
jstan

climber
Feb 22, 2014 - 07:52am PT
I had always thought the Inquisition for example, was waged by true believers, but after mulling it over, I think Ward was right, that was just used as an excuse for power.

or they were afraid of what would happen to them if they did not follow the ideology and pour molten lead down the throat of an obviously innocent person. They would have the Rush Limbaugh of their day to deal with. More often than not, belief systems are all about surrender and obedience. Both then and now.
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