Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Sport climber
Mar 29, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
I had a nun somewhere...

Let's see...

Possibly here:
Once upon a time...

No, possibly not...

Mar 29, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
No. Her being a nun would imply christianity is a failed religion. It isn't. Of course.

Sport climber
Mar 29, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
I can see no fail. Where is it? ;o)

Mar 29, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
There is a guy somewhere who is not devout. QED

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 29, 2014 - 05:58pm PT
regarding Gobee,

I like him, from what a few others have told me, he is a good solid guy.

I don't believe that he is evangelizing in the sense that he is trying to convert anybody
to Christianity. I think he is simply a very very devout fundamentalist Christian, has that on his mind almost all the time day and night, sees the words "god and religion" in this thread's topic header, and feels entitled to post his strong faith through bible passages.

Some people could rightfully make a case that his Creationism and literal interpretation of the bible is supportive of a "Taliban" Christian Authority that orders murder and slavery.
I doubt very much that Gobbe would agree with that, but nonetheless maintains that every word in the bible is the word of god, a very serious conflict to most people.

Maybe that is what irritates Glanton to post overly sarcastic photos, he is showing his personal revulsion at what he sees as Gobee's "holier than thou" presence.

In addition, i know that for a long time Glanton has posted similar, sarcastic and caustic photos on the political threads, and yes his photo of President Obama as a chimp was originally posted on the Repubs are Wrong thread from my memory, to register what he sees as the thinly veiled racism of some of the frequent Obama hating right wing posters.

Free Speech is going to piss some people off, both Gobee and Glanton have that right,

Being nice and polite has never been normal of SuperTopo, some people here intentionally insult others with almost every post, out of the blue with no prior provocation, need not fear Administrator chastising or banning, purely because of their status within the climbing community. Who is worse, them or Glanton or Gobee?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 29, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
Starting to look like just another shitshow run.


Mar 29, 2014 - 06:10pm PT
In the Philippines there is a little jumping spider that lives quite near to weaver ants that prey on it. The spider can see better than the ants and easily avoids them in the daytime. At night it retreats to a dome web with flap doors. The web is densely woven and ants cannot get the spider.

There is another spider that preys on the jumping spider. That other spider is a "spitting spider" which can spray a venomous version of silk 10-20 mm when capturing prey. The spitting spider can recognize the dome web of the jumping spider. When it finds such a web it sprays its own web over it and waits for the jumping spider to either emerge or return.

The spitting spider does not see well but has good touch sensitivity and smell. Weaver ant colonies have an odor which the spitting spider avoids.

The jumping spider takes the lesser of two evils - living near a colony of weaver ants.

If I were a jumping spider, I would probably make the same choice. Here's a video of a spitting spider in action. It is long but the moment when the spider spits goes by so fast you won't know what happened.

Not for the queasy.


Sport climber
Mar 29, 2014 - 06:23pm PT

A cool video. A web spitshow...

John 6:44
Mar 29, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
Credit: go-B

Jesus is the Good News! :)

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 29, 2014 - 06:33pm PT

Me So Holy

Free Speech

Boulder climber
Mar 29, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
Go ahead, go-b, you're a decent guy.

You might be interested to know that in the social sciences it's been argued and empirically supported in many places that what people do often is first come up with an insight or solution, and then expend resources finding an appropriate problem to solve (MikeL)

True in math as well. there are very roughly two types of math researchers (with a lot of overlap): Problem solvers - and a great deal of original math has been developed in the process, and explorers who do indeed create math with no immediate intention of it solving specific problems. I belong to the second group since I like to play around with ideas and haven't had the patience to pursue problems others have either solved or presented as challenges. This was my attitude as a climber as well.

What observations have you made or what empirical studies would you refer us to that "map OW into SW" that we could be sure of? Why not the other way around? (I believe the sequence is the result of a philosophical stand that you've assumed.) (MikeL)

If you like it the other way, go to it! It's just playing around.

I would consider going the other way as an excursion into quantum flapdoodle.

Trad climber
Mar 29, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
Er, . . . I think I started this by asking what Glanton's point was. I guess I was asking for an interpretation of what his intention was or what it was he meant to show us. Initially I thought to myself that he simply meant to be ugly and to alienate readers, but I could be wrong in some very interesting ways.

The images of his posts could be a form of art, since art can be ugly yet profound. (Art can also be pretty, well-executed, and insipid.)

I was just wondering what was on Glanton's mind. What was his point?

No one can say, except Glanton, and quite honestly, I would like to hear it from him. His images were initially offensive to me, and I would like to investigate my own feelings about it.

I think I've been around death enough to appreciate it's, . . . er, "poetry." So, what is it to him?

For all we know, he could have a terribly interesting insight into death, morbidness, and Christianity as it can be represented in contorted images of the bland art that Christianity tends to show us.

So, if you're Glanton, . . . speak up. I'm all ears here. Really.

Boulder climber
Mar 29, 2014 - 07:14pm PT
Human Subconscious as a p-adic Dynamical System

This might be fun to read, MH2. I do see in the preview the idea of iteration of a single function X(n)=F(X(n-1)) about which much of dynamical system theory revolves. This simple process yields lots of delightful fractals and solves problems like finding solutions of differential equations. But I have always felt that a more realistic approach would be to allow the functions to change at each iteration, leaving simple iteration as a special case.

Over twenty years ago Lisa Lorentzen (U. of Trondheim) and I working independently extended iteration, she to the case F(1,(F(2,(F3, . . .(F(n,z))...) and me to the other possibility: F(n,(F(n-1,(F(n-2, . . .(F(1,z))...). (math syntax is dreadful on this website)

Apologies for intruding upon a delightful conversation.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
Mar 29, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
I'm not sure I'd agree with Ward that this has become just another run of the mill shitshow.

As Mike just pointed out it is actually a pretty reasonable attempt at sorting something out. Maybe we're all wildly off mark and both Glanton and Go-B are right now killing themselves laughing....

The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 29, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
Jesus was a lower-class preacher from Galilee, who, in good apocalyptic fashion, proclaimed that the end of history as he knew it was going to come to a crashing end, within his own generation. God was soon to intervene in the course of worldly affairs to overthrow the forces of evil and set up a utopian kingdom on earth. And he would be the king.

It didn't happen....


... It's a fascinating set of developments. It is highly important. And it matters not just for those who believe that the followers of Jesus got it right, but for anyone who cares about the factors that shaped the world we live in today.


John 6:44
Mar 29, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
Seeing and Believing...

John 20:24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”

So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

...Believing and Seeing! :)

Mar 29, 2014 - 09:24pm PT
Jesus was a lower-class

What a crock of sh!t and stupid idiots making up sh!t in their heads as usual.

No brains what so ever.

Jesus Christ was top most class (brilliant) and had to talk to the lower class.

And even to this day and age they still remain lower class.

One look at the world today and you see how these lower class fools have and are destroying the world.

They learned nothing from Jesus Christ except to run their big mouths ......

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 29, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
When I saw this I said, Jesus Christ!


More on sentience tomorrow.


Mar 29, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
I can't speak to the math, jgill, but I find Khrennikov's ideas weird. He refers to our conscious mind as where we take in information. Then, he says, it goes to the subconscious to generate ideas which somehow return in useful form to the conscious mind. It might be a Russian perspective, or perhaps he is adopting Freud. I wouldn't know.

It is poignant how, in one of his many papers, Khrennikov tries to give us a less abstract picture of these "ideas" the subconscious operates on, including love and a soviet woman with yellow hair.

With the aid of the internet I have looked into what p-adic numbers are. I had assumed it was just some part of number theory but it seems more basic. P-adic numbers are an alternative to the reals. They are a very different way of doing business if I understand correctly. Just possibly they are a more natural means of judging the degree of similarity in complicated structures than real numbers are.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
Mar 29, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
Seems for many the pursuit here is to find wisdom (another term that cries out to be defined more specifically).

And my disagreement with the science crowed is just that belief that science is the final arbiter of wisdom. Science tends to tell us how, but sometimes falls short when the question is why.

The arts, for example, communicate a kind of wisdom that seems completely outside the parameters of science. Mozart, Michelangelo, Dante, or a Flamenco dancer, these artists communicate a kind of knowledge difficult to asses and difficult to define and always cognizant of the strangeness of being. Great art has always been valued for its ability to communicate something beyond words, beyond any specific scientific definition.

It was for a reason that Dante saw the experience of beauty as a preparation of the mind for the beatific vision of the divine.

When you look at those incredible Hubble photographs of the universe they appear beautiful and stir inside a contemplation of the mystery of what we are. Why? What is that experience of beauty? Why does humanity take such a delight in the experience of its senses. It is our delight in the mystery of the universe that drives us to find answers to that very mystery...why? Why is humanity driven to discover meaning or lack of meaning in the universe?

In order to truly digest the rigorous imperatives of science we need the reconciliation and wisdom afforded by the arts.

It is, after all, the cold absolutes of reality, the inevitable functions of the universe that have produced the arts and the mythologies those arts so often support.

To say those mythologies are meaningless or just untrue is to ignore their source and real meaning.

The mythologies that so many here decry as woo woo, when read correctly, can be seen as metaphors of a psychological nature that offer real insight into what it is to be human.

What is the metaphorical meaning of the crucifixion, virgin birth, Orpheus in Hades?

Dismiss those mythologies and you dismiss their wisdom.

I’m more of an atheist than anybody on this thread, but I have respect for mythology because of what it informs us through its wisdom. I don't think of it as historical fact or believe in the supernatural.

To read those myths as strict historical accounts that are simply impossible by their nature is foolish.

Read them as metaphor and you’ll find them helpful messages of reconciliation.

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