Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Jan 25, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
MikeL, the book by Csikszentmihalyi I read was actually "Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience".

I don't recall it to be a-must read, but interesting nevertheless.

As for the sensation, there is flow, and there is FLOW. Those FLOWS don't happen that often. When they do, they are amazing. For example, in a bridge tournament (some 30 years ago) I played that one hand brilliantly. After the game, my opponent to the right asked me why I played that way. I couldn't recall how I played, didn't remember! I felt like I just woke up, and it took me a moment even to understand his question. Normally I remember (or used to) the play down to the lowest card long after the game. That's what I call the FLOW.

I am famous for being absent minded, but being in FLOW is very different.

Andrzej
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 25, 2014 - 05:20pm PT
Ordinarily, we tend to be aware mainly of the content of this thought rather than of how it actually takes place.


Have been in SLC for OR. Tired.

But what most people want on this thread is a laundry list of content queued up like a math equation. A discursive evaluation of content. Switching the focus away from content to the process of mind itself is a largely unacceptable angle to take on the whole shooting match, most seem to believe. But that's the game. Content just keeps churning.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jan 25, 2014 - 05:23pm PT
What else would it do?
go-B

climber
1 Corinthians 8:6
Jan 25, 2014 - 07:02pm PT
Smallest baby ever born in Northern California goes home

\http://www.aol.com/article/2014/01/22/smallest-baby-ever-born-in-northern-california-goes-home/20813477/?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl30%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D433611

It's truly a miracle that Amiracle, weighing at just 10.5r ounces, survived.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jan 25, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
^ PTL!!!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 26, 2014 - 08:47am PT
Content just flows, Cintuine, but what happens when you switch your attention to Mind, instead of what is IN it, whereby mind itself becomes the "figure" (foreground), and content becomes the "ground" (background)?

Try that for a minute tell us interesting things, empirically gathered, if you please.

JL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jan 26, 2014 - 08:52am PT
MH2

Great story.

The important question still stands unanswered: WHO THE F*#K
TOLD (YOU) THE STORY?

...lol...
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jan 26, 2014 - 09:33am PT
Content just flows, Cintuine, but what happens when you switch your attention to Mind, instead of what is IN it, whereby mind itself becomes the "figure" (foreground), and content becomes the "ground" (background)?


Isn't that sort of what happens when we dream? Not when we think about our dreams afterward, while awake, but actually in the REM moment?

Guess I'll have to not-think about that one for a while....
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 26, 2014 - 10:01am PT
Content just flows, Cintuine, but what happens when you switch your attention to Mind, instead of what is IN it, whereby mind itself becomes the "figure" (foreground), and content becomes the "ground" (background)?


Isn't that sort of what happens when we dream? Not when we think about our dreams afterward, while awake, but actually in the REM moment?

Guess I'll have to not-think about that one for a while....


I am constantly amazed with how apparently lazy people are on this thread. Or else they feign interest and merely babble about stuff, but lack the initiative or curiosity of wherwithal to try the simpliest thing for as little as a minute.

Cintuine, I am not guessing about this, nor is what I am suggesting remotely equal to dreaming. But rather than take my word for it, why not find out for yourself? What is it, fundamentally, that literally stops people in their tracks from tip toeing away from the discursive for even 60 seconds? People laugh at the notion that a certain specie of terror is the root cause of this paralysis, save for John G, who said in plain English that he feared anything but discursive mind flexing might hasten senility, or would promote a laxness of "mind." On the other hand you have John S. who feels anything outside the discursive is a "waste of time" and that anyone suggesting as much is a self-proclaimed faux guru wanting to diminish others.

In fact all that is being suggested is a few simple thought experiments. I long ago abandoned trying to explain what and why things start start to shift once you start to do these exercises, as if I am promoting a religion or cult - something I also attribute to the terror of leaving the discursive, which I suspect is really a control issues for most of us.

It remains a fascinating thing to ponder.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jan 26, 2014 - 10:12am PT
Well, that was harsh. Just asking a question, dude. But fine, okay, not remotely similar. Trouble with these suggested thought experiments is that you seem to have got this fixed idea of what the outcome is going to be, and it becomes a matter of whether or not the response lives up to your fait accompli. And yet you really can't manage to just spit it out and provide a coherent summary of what's in store; it's always "do it for yourself" and then we'll magically get it, and thereby become somehow enlightened as to what this Snark hunt of yours is all about. Talk about churning.

He had bought a large map representing the sea,
Without the least vestige of land:
And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be
A map they could all understand.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jan 26, 2014 - 11:26am PT
People laugh at the notion that a certain specie of terror is the root cause of this paralysis, save for John G, who said in plain English that he feared anything but discursive mind flexing might hasten senility, or would promote a laxness of "mind." (JL)

Not quite true, JL. I questioned whether that might be the case and asked for a reply, which no one gave. Then I looked up material on google and was pleasantly surprised that that was not the case - which I reported. Still no replies. Until now.


;>\
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 26, 2014 - 11:33am PT
And yet you really can't manage to just spit it out and provide a coherent summary of what's in store; it's always "do it for yourself" and then we'll magically get it, and thereby become somehow enlightened as to what this Snark hunt of yours is all about. Talk about churning.
-

If you look at this what you have is yet another dodge to avoid actually engaging what every esoteric discipline has ALWAYS said and continues to say: No one can do the work for you, and a discursive evaluation or "knowledge" of said work is not the issue.

What in the world makes you think that "magic" has anything to do with this? What does that even mean? Magic? Anything not discursively reckoned is perforce "produced" by magical means? What experience have you ever had to suggest that is true? What's a snark hunt, and what makes it "mine." If I gave you a topo for the Nose, would that make the Nose "mine," or would I simply be providing you some little info per climbing El Cap. Either way you'd have to climb the thing yourself.

The sticking point here is the demand that a "coherent summary" be provided BEFORE someone does even a minutes worth of work on the subject. Inasmuch as the process is experiential, are you not insisting for a discursive and "coherent" breaking down of what is essentially NOT discursive, and which you imagine is in fact "magic."

Can you see how turned around our boy is on all of this? And hat is the one contant? The steadfast refusal to put forth even a minute of effort in the thought experiments. That's the real unconscious point of arguing about this - so long as you keep circling the wagon, you can avoid doing anything.

JL

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jan 26, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
More emptiness churning away. But it's not your fault. You're trying to use language to communicate the "non-discursive." Hard to imagine anything more inherently self-defeating than that. This is where physically going to a dojo and doing the "work" in proximity to others on that path would make more sense. If that's what you're into, anyway.

go-B

climber
1 Corinthians 8:6
Jan 26, 2014 - 12:35pm PT


I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist - Frank Turek, PhD






Christopher Hitchens Vs Frank Turek Debate Atheism or Theism
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 26, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
You're trying to use language to communicate the "non-discursive." Hard to imagine anything more inherently self-defeating than that.
--

You're still turned around. I'm NOT trying to communicate the non-discursive. Gave up on that long ago. I'm suggesting that instead of talking about it, that YOU do the thought experiment and tell US.

My point is that so long as you continue to merely talk about what you claim you are interested in, while shying away from actually doing the exercise, whatever it is, all of your best efforts are self-defeating because you're not actually playing the game at all. You're furnishing excuses, all valid, talking about the other guy, more circling, while avoid the first moves of the pitch. It's like some guy we used to always see talking a big game about climbing, but verily he never roped up, and instead furnished a raft of excuses or criticized the other guy? Who is the loser here? Why bet against yourself in this way?

What would it take from YOU (NOT an outside force or factor) to actually engage yourself in your own process, for 30 seconds? What is stopping you from investigating yourself? How do you feel that merely talking about it is more better than sitting quietly in you engine room and telling us what you find?

I'm not saying this is for everyone nor yet trying to bully the disinterested to do what they are afraid, have no inclination or aptitude to do or could simply care less. Tastes differ. It's just that many on this thread seemed skilled at and are keen at examining things, and yet when asked to examine their own process, these same folks suddenly start yelling "magic," or complain about "gods," wuwu, and so fort, virtually none of it drawn empirically, but from speculating from without - a process they would never do with their other modes of examining.

It is curious to see, you must admit.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jan 26, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
This is all hauntingly familiar to my discussions with my sisters. Whereby I am trying to talk them into going toprope climbing with me. Even with my pledge for a safe and enjoyable afternoon, and maybe even an Enlightening experience. Their refusal astonish's me because I've experienced so many good attributes included within Climbing. Their bottom line; Why would anybody want to climb a rock?. Well, we all know why. I think climbing should be had by all. So is it wrong that I don't stop hounding them to get out there and try climbing? Knowing all the positive benefits climbing could bring to their lives, wouldn't it be wrong if I stopped sharing?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 26, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
So is it wrong that I don't stop hounding them to get out there and try climbing?


Hi blue, yes I think you should leave your sisters alone and stop pestering them to go climbing.

I am going to guess that your sisters do not pester you to do things you are not interested in that they like to do, maybe "girl" things? Or maybe they do push you to wear nail polish?

why would you assume that other people should like the things you like?
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 26, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
I have started reading some things by and about Krishnamurti ( a few I recently posted) This morning I read a talk he gave to dissolve a spiritual group that had formed around him( http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/about-krishnamurti/dissolution-speech.php ) The Order of the Star of The East. I am really liking how genuine and unique he seems.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jan 26, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#342677



The path of a floating leaf in a turbulent pond over a time interval t=0 (dark green) to t=1 (light green). (For illustrative purposes the underlying vector field function is F=z+e^tz .)



A metaphor for Mike's "just go with the flow"
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 26, 2014 - 04:59pm PT
Yes that is all very interesting but here we have definitive proof of the coming Apocalypse

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/26/peace-doves-released-from-popes-window-viciously-attacked-by-seagull-and-large-black-crow/


How much you want to bet those crows and seagulls are going to make this a regular thing now?
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