Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Jan 30, 2014 - 12:46am PT
Being a pragmatist, I like to find solutions to my problems. That is probably why I am always trying to find out what are you people looking for.

When MikeL says that the only thing I know is real is my awareness, I completely agree. But even if everything else is just an illusion, I have no way of knowing it. There is no red or blue pill that could show me the REALITY. I see no other choice but to act as if this world were real. By accepting that, I am also accepting the scientific point of view on reality. Including its limitations. The principle of a viable scientific theory is to make a prediction and prove it. Faith can not provide it. Otherwise it would't be called faith.

What would you do if you have learned that all of this is just an illusion? Does it really matter?

I am really happy for all of you that experienced something special without using LSD, PCDE, or whatever.

Andrzej
MH2

climber
Jan 30, 2014 - 01:17am PT
You need to say what you mean: "The material world we are part of."


I do say what I mean, or try to. Why do you need to say what I mean?

Good authority has it that I am not part of the material world. What do you mean by material?

Why do you so often mention quantifying when it is the relations among things, their interactions, that we experience and explore?

moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Jan 30, 2014 - 01:40am PT
MH2, my Polish post meant, I don't understand. Sorry for the charade.

I just couldn't catch your meaning. Unusual, because you communicate your ideas very well.

Andrzej
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 30, 2014 - 11:20am PT
There is existence, and like rSin, it's something that you must be aware of. Any flaw or glitch would mean reality would not be working, right?

No. Not right.

No existence. Poof. Big Zero. No start, no stop, no end. Nothing.

How would you know?

Your definitions need some work, bro. You can't bedazzle me with roundy round speak.

DMT
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jan 30, 2014 - 11:52am PT


Meditation is meant to tell us what our life is about (JL)


Once again the implication that meditation is the capstone of our existence, allowing us to move "beyond" mere rational thought. I'm certain you don't perceive your practice as a religion, but it appears so to those of us who have not indulged and consider ourselves meditatively neutral.


Jesus is meant to tell us what our life is about . . .


See?
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
Science is meant to tell what our life is about
Touche

Most everything else is just speculating
MH2

climber
Jan 30, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
MH2, my Polish post meant, I don't understand.


Andrzej,

Your

Nie rozumiem.

is just above

Nie mówię po polsku.

in my learn-before-you-land Polish phrase book (with CD!)



I put too many ideas into that post and with the usual left-hand twist.


I was struck by your simple statement, "It worked well," when referring to teaching your children the relative importance of possessions versus moral behavior and memories you can feel good about.

The radio was interviewing experts on Machiavelli, the one who counseled that those who are bad will have an advantage over those who are good.

Both the ideas and the tools we create and use influence us in turn, at times in ways we are slow to realize.

Between the earliest single-cell protozoans and the ape lie hundreds of millions of years. The potential for the ape was probably present long ago; it just took time.

Now knowledge and technology are engines of change. What will work, and what won't?

The clip is from the Japanese movie Metropolis about a future where things have not worked well for humans and there is ambiguity about the difference between human and robot identity.

By comparison, the little ribosomes and their molecular partners in our cells are marvels of stabile operation (a couple billion years at least) in a great variety of conditions. But look at what they have created.




edit:

I blame your Fifth dimension post for my disregard for coherence earlier.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jan 30, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
Werner,

I knew that would call you out. You see things absolutely, and I have a lot of appreciation for that. But what these squiggles are (pixels, light, "words")--and the knowing that might come from them alone (rather than what they might point to)--is just talk and the concepts that go with them. No one is going to be persuaded to accept this view or another view of experience by what is said here in this thread. I think that's where John's admonitions and encouragement (and chiding) for direct apprehension picks up the conversation and turns it to something that can add more than logic, reason, or conceptualization.


DMT:

My thought about glitches and flaws that must be missing from reality are logically derived. Consider it a kind of axiom.

Rather than catcall from the bleachers, why don't you grab a bat and come up to the plate? What's your understanding? Tell me how you think things work and what's what.

Again, it's about give-and-take, dialogue, conversation, discussion. Yea or nay is simply a vote, and dull. NawwhaImean?


Jgill: Once again the implication that meditation is the capstone of our existence, allowing us to move "beyond" mere rational thought.

John, I really don't see how you come to that implication, especially given your history. Meditation simply a method. Nothing more. (Isn't this the same as your own view of it?) But the method is particular, and what it can provide access to is likely very difficult to get at with "objective" methods, IMO.

Moving beyond rational thought isn't difficult or unusual. Consider any set of opposites or polarities: good and bad, light and dark, appearance and void, subject and object, positive and negative, high and low, being and non-being, us and them, subjective and objective, phenomenon and noumenon, etc. Each is a concept, but what are the two polarities together? Conceptualize that: no thing. Eternally separate as concepts, forever inseparable unconceived, . . . the identity the essential understanding.

One cannot use mind to transcend mind. One cannot use rationality to transcend rationality.

There are two conceptual aspects of one whole which as such cannot be conceived.

Am I reasonable? Logical? If so, then what am I pointing to? Nothing? (How could that be done?)
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 30, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
MikeL - how does an irrational person perceive their disconnect from reality? If the brain is faulty in its perception of reality, that fault or faults could be subtle or wildly unsustainable.

Hearing voices that aren't really there, for example...

If reality is perception, as you say, then these voices must be real. And yet we know from lots of science that the voices are not real.

And the listener of these voices may be completely unable to get out of the trap of their own thoughts to even realize it. Their perception of reality is flawed.

Now take that a step further... how would a rational person know if the reality she perceives is faulty or not? How would she know the difference between a faulty perception of a perfect reality vs and a perfect perception of a faulty reality? This goes to the very heart of woo woo. Individual experience cannot reveal the answer.

That is not a cat call from a bleacher. I don't think it needs 500 words to illustrate my fundamental question: how can you know reality is perfect? Your assumption is that its a binary issue, perfection or nothing. That flies in the face of my perception of reality. I am not irrational. If I am perfect then you have a problem :)

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 30, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
Meditation is meant to tell us what our life is about (JL)


Once again the implication that meditation is the capstone of our existence, allowing us to move "beyond" mere rational thought. I'm certain you don't perceive your practice as a religion, but it appears so to those of us who have not indulged and consider ourselves meditatively neutral.
-

The "mere" betrays an attitude about the rational that is not present in meditation, which favors nothing over anything else.

But I remain curious about the rest of this: It is clear that many have no experience with what lies beyond rational thought, and that the best they can do is to guess that whatever lies out there is just another kind of evaluating, but with this tool, we can evaluate things like God, and so forth, ergo meditation must be some kind of "religion."

This has not been my experience WHATSOEVER. Meditators are themselves meditatively neutral. Meditation is not another evaluating strategy. Meditation is not something you do, but but arises when you sit down, shut up and don't let the riptide of random thoughts and feelings and so forth
swallow your attention.

And what the hell is woo woo? And "mysticism." I've been asking this and no one has bothered to answer.


JL
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 30, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
Meditation is meant to tell us what our life is about, how perception works from the inside, and to explore the vast field of our awareness and experience, to which measuring is of no profit.

Measuring is no profit? So what about this 'try it for 30 seconds' silliness? Your way of saying - 'you're not doing it right.' Your way of preaching about your way.

Trying to posit any spiritual practice as an attempt to do science ("explain" the material world we live in) is IMHO as misguided

Totally agree here. Trying to use spiritualism as an attempt to explain the world we live in is purt near useless.

Why do you insist on trying to explain what life is about, or exploring perception from the inside when you state that it cannot be done? Perception is part of the material world, after all, and so if life. Or is it woo woo?

So why do you insist on trying?

Because you're a preacher man and you can't help it. You want to lead folks...

DMT
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Jan 30, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
I agree with DMT.

Perfection according to whom? MikeL and Werner say that everything is "objectively" perfect.
But since there is no objective reality, we can only have subjective assessments, don't you think?

Of course, if everything is perfect, why are you guys saying we are wrong? As elements of this perfect world, we are perfect too.

I think your definition of perfect is different than mine.

Andrzej

P.S. Sorry for my "Fifth dimension" trolling. It served it purpose, though.

;)
WBraun

climber
Jan 30, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
Largo's "try it for 30 seconds" is not any attempt to do it his way or any such preaching.

Meditation leads to openness.

largo knows the duality of the human mind and it's nature when attached to the material side will naturally become defensive because it assumes the material body is all there is.

Just as the good doctor always prescribes bitter medicine and accompanying pain before healing.

When the healthy fish finally swims back in the free unpolluted waters it becomes again to its true original blissful state.

Plus .....you're all god awful stupid Americans ....... :-)
jstan

climber
Jan 30, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
Because you're a preacher man and you can't help it. You want to lead folks.


Not looking for a high priest myself. If someone is logically consistent day to day, writes short tightly reasoned text, uses words carefully, and has a sense of humor, I'll read and try to learn. The many ST posters of this ilk are a treat. The others, as Werner has said, are just being themselves.

We do have a problem with people who post every ten minutes whenever they are awake. We need a tool that prevents such posts from bumping threads. A ten post per day cap would be good. If you need to exceed that cap just go back and edit a prior post.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 30, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
All this fuss about meditation; is it religion ? and DMT the preacher to expose preachers . Perfect vs non perfect .. It can be difficult to see through the sh*t storm.

Meditation (that is not intended for self improvement) such as talked about by JL and Tpacker and krishnamurti are about intentionally being present in the moment.

The challenge in the taking up of meditation is that "I" almost always wants something from it. Part of being present is to percieve this "I" that is either grasping for things or pushing them away. If you can percieve this "I" you gain choice in how to act when "I" is angry , greedy and ignorant.

The ability to be present to "I" can be a wonderful tool to have in your life travels.

"I" is a construct of our thinking and feelings; periodically during meditation one can find themselves present with no thinking. This "no thinking mind" has no constructed "I"; some people call it "original mind" . Since there is no "I" your experience it is not like our normal everyday struggle with "I", There can be extreme blissfulness etc.. Usually when this bliss is first encountered "I" immediately co-ops it. "I" really likes bliss it is alot better then the typical struggle.

So meditation can be a wonderful practice to help see things more clearly in our non-stop relationship with the moment.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 30, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
Why do you insist on trying to explain what life is about, or exploring perception from the inside when you state that it cannot be done?


It cannot be done as we normally go about doing science. Meaning the exploration does not involve measuring because it doesn't work that way. If you were to pin John S. down what you'd almost certainly find is someone who expects everything to be presented like an equation, with perfect logical symmetry, for it to "make sense." What he wants is for us to objectify the subjective and to serve it up for his evaluating pleasure because evaluating is all he in interested in doing - so why not serve it up logically, rationally, succinctly, objectively. Why all this rambling and double talk from all these lax minded rubes?

Better yet, why doesn't John S. travel into the non discursive and do us the favor himself? Because while he and others persist in deriding the experiential efforts, they have no curiosity or wherewital in this direction at all, or are waiting till such time as the experiential can be ladled into their meatbrains as proper "science."

But note that no effort on their behalf is forthcoming per anything different than what they are and have always done: discursive wrangling. I do it myself all the time. No knock on that. But there is more . . .

And I'm still waiting for someone to define woo woo or mysticism.

And Dingus. "My way" is simply sitting down and not letting your awareness be carried off by thoughts or feelings et al. What you fine in "my way" is whatever is happening in your own life, at this moment. There is no input of juju from me or any outside source. You simply explore what is in you, what you are doing, how YOUR perception works form the inside. That's why we chuckle when we hear you rambling on about preachers and doctrine and beliefs and so forth. You are totally missing what this is all about, bound as you are to a paradigm of an old time minister telling you what to do. Meditation is no DOING anything. It is what arises when you shut up and concentrate on your own process, second to second. It has nothing to do with ME.

JL
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 30, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
this conversation is absurd

in spite of the best efforts of all the sciences and mental and religious practices we don't know much, only a miniscule portion of what there is to learn

this thread could be a sharing discussion of things not well understood, an opportunity to explore and learn

however at the point you think you already understand something, the learning process stops

some are convinced of already having a basic understanding, so waste everyone's time with obnoxious pedantic proselytizing



TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 30, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
I'll attempt a look at mysticism, woo woo, ju ju, whatever you want to call it:

We are sitting around on our favorite logs next to the Climbers Camp fire, arguing about which log is positioned better and the proper formula for Teton Tea, while the wind wafts smoke and sparks around, alternating smoke with mosquitoes.

We have some level of perception and knowledge about what we can see within range of the light of the fire, and speculate eloquently about the nature of wind and fire and light and rocks and dirt and bugs.

From beyond the crackling light of our fire, some who listen hear rare mysterious noises and glimpse lights through the trees from stars and fireflys, perhaps even other camp fires.

Some with loud voices speak authoritatively of nothing real existing outside the fire circle and anything else is delusional.

Others speculate endlessly of mysterious noises and lights outside the comfortable reality of the fire circle, assigning speculative concepts and anthropomorphic personae.

Others sit and listen carefully without compulsively assigning concepts to perceptions.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 30, 2014 - 05:51pm PT
I'll attempt a look at mysticism, woo woo, ju ju, whatever you want to call it:

Cool!

We are sitting around on our favorite logs next to the Climbers Camp fire, arguing about which log is positioned better and the proper formula for Teton Tea, while the wind wafts smoke and sparks around, alternating smoke with mosquitoes.

We have some level of perception and knowledge about what we can see within range of the light of the fire, and speculate eloquently about the nature of wind and fire and light and rocks and dirt and bugs.

From beyond the crackling light of our fire, some who listen hear rare mysterious noises and glimpse lights through the trees from stars and fireflys, perhaps even other camp fires.

Some with loud voices speak authoritatively of nothing real existing outside the fire circle and anything else is delusional.

Others speculate endlessly of mysterious noises and lights outside the comfortable reality of the fire circle, assigning speculative concepts and anthropomorphic personae.

Others sit and listen carefully without compulsively assigning concepts to perceptions.

I don't get it. Sorry.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 30, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
What you fine in "my way" is whatever is happening in your own life, at this moment.

Excellent. I already found it. No problem to be solved.

DMT
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