Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Jan 14, 2014 - 05:02pm PT


"This thread should be titled BullSh#t vs Science"...

AMEN!!!...

MH2

climber
Jan 14, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
To make things easy for my poor mind I prefer to think of consciousness as MAINLY our awareness of words. We use words to communicate with other people and we can use them inside our heads, too, to listen to ourselves and talk to ourselves: our inner voice, our awareness of pre-motor subvocal outputs to our larynx and the other machinery of speech.

There could also be a case to be made for consciousness of images, sounds, emotions, and whatnot being called up and arrayed in a variety of patterns, rather than directly perceived by the senses.

However, when trying to understand what the brain is doing, it is good to start with a particular job the brain must do. A good choice is how your brain keeps track of where you are. For this, no inner voice is needed but a lot of brain processing occurs.

Every day lots of people leave home, go to work or the grocery store, and usually manage to find their way back home.

To avoid the portentous rhetoric that adheres to discussion of human capabilities, consider how insects navigate. Bees, wasps, and ants leave their home, travel far enough to lose sight of it, zig, zag, spiral, curlicue, get blown by the wind or have a branch fall across the path they took, and still manage to get back home.

Before we get too excited about the awesome prospects of understanding how the human mind works, how much do we know about the ant brain?

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/199/1/129.full.pdf

Watch for the phrase 'portentous rhetoric.'


If you prefer creatures with a hippocampus:

http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v7/n8/full/nrn1932.html

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 14, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
words are a limited form of communication

when thinking, i rarely use words

but then, i am rarely thinking

thinking represents a major intrusion upon awareness

thinking vs awareness is like trying to pay attention skiing moguls while listening with headphones to a radio news announcer
WBraun

climber
Jan 14, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
Bending spoon is easy,

You are the spoon and I bent you .......
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Jan 14, 2014 - 08:15pm PT



("Stupid") American spoons bend the easiest...

moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Jan 14, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
You are the spoon and I bent you .......

Fag!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 14, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
Talks about the conscious and subconscious minds are not particularly instructive unless you understand the triune hierarchy of brain stem, limbic, and neocortex function, that is instinctive, emotional, and cognitive levels, knowing that the language of the brain stem is body sensations, of the limbic system, emotions, and of the cortex, thoughts, images, etc. Understand also that this system can be viewed as a series of three connected gears, that the biggest and most powerful by a mile is the instinctual gear, next the feeling gear, and on top, spinning around like mad, the cognitive gear.

We sometimes tend to think of the unconscious as a reservoir of conceptual content that might or might not bubble up to awareness but most unconscious material is far stronger and more primitive and fundamental than thought, which is the least operative factor or driver in human behavior. Most of us are primarily driven by our instinctual/genetic drives/programming.

JL

MH2

climber
Jan 14, 2014 - 09:40pm PT
Most of us are primarily driven by our instinctual/genetic drives/programming.


You are just a fancy car for your gonads to drive around in.
MH2

climber
Jan 14, 2014 - 09:58pm PT
MikeL:
If you see objects and believe they are real, substantial, concrete, serious, then that means a conceptualization has been reified. Scratch any "object" and you'll find a concept underlying it.

And if that concept is 'home', then you, I, and the ant have something in common.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 14, 2014 - 11:21pm PT

. . . and we think they go through this MRI experience with no side effects (Tom)

I've wondered about this, regardless of studies. (Jogill)

science seems to consider the mind to exist in the form of a meat computer

i wonder what this observation tells us about that: how can a meat computer remain unaffected by an electromagnet that can suck a wheel chair across the room and pin it crumpled against the MRI

is it perhaps that the mind is not affected because it is something else
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jan 14, 2014 - 11:23pm PT

words are a limited form of communication

when thinking, i rarely use words

but then, i am rarely thinking

thinking represents a major intrusion upon awareness

And speaking plays a major intrusion upon Think'in.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 14, 2014 - 11:29pm PT
science seems to consider the mind to exist in the form of a meat computer

i wonder what this observation tells us about that: how can a meat computer remain unaffected by an electromagnet that can suck a wheel chair across the room and pin it crumpled against the MRI

is it perhaps that the mind is not affected because it is something else

But wait you said the meat mind was affected. Yours. You said so.

So it the meat mind affected by MRI or not? Is science capable of ascertaining or isn't it? If your mind akin to a metal chair flying across a lab or isn't it?

Make up your meat mind you can't have your woo woo and eat it too.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 14, 2014 - 11:29pm PT
words are a limited form of communication

when thinking, i rarely use words

but then, i am rarely thinking (meat mind laughter...)

Um....

ok folks we're here all week.

Tip your servers!

DMT
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 14, 2014 - 11:40pm PT
But wait you said the meat mind was affected. Yours. You said so.

So it the meat mind affected by MRI or not? Is science capable of ascertaining or isn't it? If your mind akin to a metal chair flying across a lab or isn't it?

that's not what i said

you are twisting what i said in order to reinforce your opinion

try reading my story without imposing your biased opinion

Edit: if mind is not affected by such a powerful magnet, then what is it composed of

There are four main ways MRI machines can pose dangers.

Projectiles:
The M in MRI stands for magnetic, and magnets are very powerful.

Gilk’s website, mrimetaldetector.com, shows photos of metal objects, including a bed, a floor polisher and a chair forced against the MRI machine.

If someone is being scanned when these devices fly into a machine, they could face serious injuries. A child in New York was killed in 2001 when the MRI machine sucked an oxygen canister into the machine where he was being scanned.

“Projectiles usually happen when there are breakdowns in policies and procedures and proper training wasn’t performed,” says Frank Shellock, an adjunct clinical professor of radiology and medicine at the University of Southern California. He points out that MRI magnets don’t just turn on when they are scanning. They are always energized and there is no visual cue the magnetic field is present. Newer MRI machines can be even more powerful.

Burns:
MRIs use RF transmitters and those can cause heat. “Burns happen, usually because a patient wasn’t prepared properly,” Shellock says. “Usually this is related to misuse of equipment.”

“Generally it is supposed to be gentle, like a heat lamp,” says Gilk. “If there are electrical conductors like an EKG lead (on the body) it becomes an antenna and can pick up the RF and concentrate it.”

Touching the side walls of the MRI tunnel can also lead to burns, Shellock says. MRI operators should put material between the patient and the wall if there is a risk of the patient coming in contact with it. Some burns have been so severe patients have required skin grafts.

Hearing loss:
MRI machines can be quite loud.

Gilk compares getting a scan to standing near a jet aircraft. He says patients and anyone else near the machine should be given adequate earplugs or protective earphones.

“Scanner technology is improving and machines are getting quieter,” Gilk says, but “anyone in the room could get hearing loss.”

Implants and medical devices:
People with metal in their bodies, including medical devices like aneurysm clips and pacemakers, can face increased risks. The MRI’s powerful magnetic fields could move the device or cause damage.

“Most medical device manufacturer's products made in the last five years will be OK,” says Gilk. But, “if, for example, you had an aneurysm clip that is 15 years old, you should be particularly cautious.”

Shellock says he has studied 3,500 implant devices over about the last 25 years and the devices that are labeled as appropriate for use in an MRI should be fine.

In addition to the medical metal inside the human body, some patients require external devices to keep them alive or monitor their condition. Those devices need to be specifically designed to function around an MRI.

The federal government doesn’t regulate the use of MRIs and state regulations for the machines vary.

“Many states have more stringent requirements for hair colorists than who runs an MRI center,” Gilk says.

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/26/dont-get-hurt-by-an-mri/
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 14, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
I've no problem with your story. Its yours and I left it alone. My problem is with your subsequent commentary. The part I quoted, specifically.

DMT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jan 14, 2014 - 11:51pm PT

i wonder what this observation tells us about that: how can a meat computer remain unaffected by an electromagnet that can suck a wheel chair across the room and pin it crumpled against the MRI

have you tried this on an ant?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 14, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
i don't consider creating continual insults to be an indicator of great intelligence


but please enlighten us as to how you think our physical minds can remain unaffected by such powerful electromagnets
WBraun

climber
Jan 14, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
When they first started detonating the atomic bomb.

"C'mon out boys and watch the show"

"You'll need some sun glasses"

"Don't worry, we have everything under control"

"Trust us"

"We are scientists, and we know what we're doing" .......
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Jan 15, 2014 - 12:10am PT
screw it

not worth it

deleting
WBraun

climber
Jan 15, 2014 - 12:19am PT
In the "real" days the real doctors could just by taking pulse completely diagnose what's wrong with one.

100%

No one is able to this in the present age.

Now they throw you into prohibitively expensive machines.

After paying for the machine diagnostics you're just about better off dead .....
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