Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MH2

climber
Dec 12, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
It is common to mistake a given color for the light

You'll see what you look to see.



I guess a deep breath and a step back don't go as far as I thought.

Still, if the above are insurmountable obstacles some people have learned a lot from mistakes and what they expected to see.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 12, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
I guess a deep breath and a step back don't go as far as I thought.


A deep breath and a step back (detachments) are what Mike and I practice day and night. It's what allows the appreciation that every perspective - while many claim to be THE one and only truth - are simply ways of interpreting experience. There's nothing else.

Try and list something that is not an article of your experience, if only as a thought. Then let go or the idealist concept that experience "created" whatever it is you are imagining, seeing, feeling, thinking, experiencing. What is left for you, above and beyond a glib guffaw?

JL
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Dec 12, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Try and list something that is not an article of your experience, if only as a thought.

You mean like stand on a street corner and NOT think of a white bear?

Then what?

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 12, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
What is left for you, above and beyond a glib guffaw?

Passive aggressive rejoinder? I hate that.

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 12, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
Try and list something that is not an article of your experience, if only as a thought.

You mean like stand on a street corner and NOT think of a white bear?



No.

JL
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 13, 2013 - 07:17am PT
Passive aggressive rejoinder? I hate that.

Aren't we all used to it by now?
MH2

climber
Dec 13, 2013 - 08:13am PT
A deep breath and a step back (detachments) are what Mike and I practice day and night. It's what allows the appreciation that every perspective - while many claim to be THE one and only truth - are simply ways of interpreting experience. There's nothing else.



Then why are you unable to see that I make no claim for biology as THE one and only truth?


All I am saying is that biology and evolution offer a good way to look at why certain things are meaningful or significant for us.

The sex needed for having babies, the food needed to keep us alive, the need to worry about scary things out there like spiders, snakes, lions, sabertooths, viruses, and drug cartels drive the way you interpret your experience. Human history, society, and individual experience drape a particular cloth over the bones of the beast. However, it is the millions of years of White Lab Coat God's Monte Carlo method that fuel your inner fires.

It goes against our nature to see our nature for what it is. Our technological civilization stretches and weakens our connection to Nature.

I'm all for that, but our technology may not last. Biology, bloodied but unbowed, will carry on. It is a long story. When you write one sentence and then say, "There's nothing else," you are too brief.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 13, 2013 - 08:22am PT
DMT: Mikel what is you direct experience with biological evolution?

I have none. I have direct experience with theories, reports, and no data. (You sure you mean "direct experience?")


Hating anything is a trap of the mind and heart. What you feel and think creates the very world you live in. It's the holiday season: let's relax and rest.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 13, 2013 - 08:24am PT
Sounds good. "Hating' shelved for the holidays!

Yes I meant direct experience. My definition of direct experience - you experience through your own sensors.

DMT
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Dec 13, 2013 - 08:44am PT
You mean like stand on a street corner and NOT think of a white bear?

Then what?

Good question FM.

Experiencing emptiness is not the end (there is no end). There is the absolute and then the next moment you are late for work. Alot of kong-ans are to get the practitioner past the strong attachment to the emptiness experience.

The key is not to be attached to the emptiness the same way we are attached to form. Easier said than done.


MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 13, 2013 - 09:13am PT
When you write one sentence and then say, "There's nothing else," you are too brief.

I'd say it's a problem of the limitations of language and the poverty of concepts. Experience is all there is. You have experience of concepts, of language, your emotions, your senses. Experience may be a relatively short response to your declarations, but in and of itself, experience is infinitely broad, deep, unending, with no starts or stops. If you don't like the world "experience," then you can substitute THIS or IT or Consciousness or Awareness.

I appreciate biology, stories, history, civilization (more please), Nature, sex, babies, food, and all the scary things you wrote about. If I appreciate them as objects that exist on their own terms, they occupy and fill my world of awareness and consciousness, and I grant them independent and definite existence and life. If I look at them closely, I come to see that they are manifestations, mirages, visions, apparitions, constructions, illusions created by an infinitely active and creative mind.

"Oh, come on, now. . . you're implying that objects don't really exist." (As Dr. Johnson said, "I refute it, thusly.")

Correct. I AM implying that objects, as you think of them (in all their concreteness and independence), don't exist. They all exist provisionally, given reasons within circumstances. But please note: I don't say that your experience doesn't exist.

I'm not saying that reality doesn't exist. I'm saying that what reality is can't be described. I'm saying that the reality we each live in is entirely of our own making. I'm saying that we are all socially constructing our consensual reality, and that's one of the reasons it looks so stable, sure, obvious. I'm saying that if you begin to see any of that, then you might consider relaxing your firm grip over your reality. I'm saying that it would make sense to be playful with what we think reality is. I'm saying that we can't know exactly what reality is. I'm saying that more openness would be helpful or useful to our own happiness. More tolerance. More freedom. More participation. More fluency. More reverence. More immediacy. Fewer boxes, categories, responsibilities; less rationality, boundedness, perfection, anxiety, exploitation, rigidity, defensiveness, control, hesitancy, goal-orientations.

You might say: "But I'm a technologist, a business man or woman, a parent, a carpenter, a teacher . . . I have to be real, practical, get things done, make money, provide for my family, etc. How can I be or do any those things and still live a regular life?"

You play chess, you climb, you play cards, you play video games, you engage in entertaining stories in books, on TV, or in movies. You know that there is some difference between a game and reality, and you know how to keep them separate. You don't charge the TV when the villain shows up on the screen.

What I'm suggesting is no different.

Everything is a game . . . science, work, parenting, living. You just back-off a bit and quit taking any of it all that seriously. You do what you need to do, and you do what you cannot help but do and be, but whatever you do is just a part of the drama that you've found yourself in. Here you are. None of those suggestions will prevent wonder, interest, involvement, and even talking or arguing about what's what.

The most real thing any of us has is our experience. What are we experiencing? Reality, plainly and simply, and perhaps purely. Looked closely at, your experience can reveal itself to be yourself in totality. You are just THIS, or IT, or Consciousness, or Awareness.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 13, 2013 - 09:14am PT
All I am saying is that biology and evolution offer a good way to look at why certain things are meaningful or significant for us


I agree with this entirely. Attachment theory makes a lot of that very clear. And if you look at Mahler developmental psychology you see the basic patterns that rule most of our behavior and give immediate reason to be as we are. Most all of our desires and likes and so forth.

But there is a call, loud to a few, subtle to the rest of us, that there is some spark, some facet that is not entirely bound by our miraculous biological mandate and objective functioning. As the man just said, very well in my opinion, we cannot become too identified with that spark, because attachment to anything in a "this is better" kind of way is the Royal Road to suffering.

It's a tighrope walk between nothingness (that spark) and form that some have called the "Middle Way." For people like me, every inch I go toward the spark I have to counterbalance by grabbing hold of a rock or riding a wave or pounding down a trail or pestering a girl - just to keep my feet rooted in Nature's forms.

Would we really want it any other way?

JL
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Dec 13, 2013 - 09:15am PT



"What you feel and think creates the very world you live in."...



No wonder my life is such a mess...

MH2

climber
Dec 13, 2013 - 09:29am PT
But there is a call, loud to a few, subtle to the rest of us, that there is some spark, some facet that is not entirely bound by our miraculous biological mandate and objective functioning.


Well said.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 13, 2013 - 09:29am PT
What you feel and think creates the very world you live in.

Reworded:

All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.

Nawmsayin?

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 13, 2013 - 09:37am PT
I'm not saying that reality doesn't exist. I'm saying that what reality is can't be described.

No I cannot accept this premise.

We describe reality every day. Every... day, with every word and every gesture. We ARE reality. We make it.

And we share it. If there were but one of us... I would agree with you. But no, we communicate with other sentient beings, the confirm our 'readings.' Our senses are peer reviewed a billion times over, real time in most cases, subawareness level but nevertheless.

I lead a route at the Gunks. I could be in a dream state. I could be dreaming that 6 billion other souls inhabit this place called a planet and all of you are figments of a turtle's dream.

But its not. If the experiences are real then so too is the canvas upon which those experiences transpire. These things are concrete - we can both see touch taste hear smell them. We can use finer instruments to experience other things. If those experiences are false, then you're false and so too are all your words, just the yin and yang of my own mind.

No amount of 'you have to do the work' is going to convince me otherwise. I require proof of delivery.

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 13, 2013 - 10:14am PT
No amount of 'you have to do the work' is going to convince me otherwise. I require proof of delivery.
-


So did the rest of us. Much to our dismay, we had to do the work to enjoy the delivery. It is not given, like experience or sense data or thinking about it or even climbing the route in the Gunks.

That much said, those who do the work have no more of a grasp of how to describe experience than a turtle. We can certainly communicate our reactions to experience, and the physical and emotional and cognitive and spiritual blowback from our lives, but describing the geyser of experience itself . . . That's what poetry and jazz tries to do. Because it can never be done does not mean the better efforts are not formidable.

JL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 13, 2013 - 10:17am PT
I thought I was liberal and open minded about race … until I realised what was going on in my New York building

On the Upper West Side, my non-white guests stand in my lobby waiting for permission to do what my white friends do freely

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/12/new-york-city-doormen-building-race-profiling
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Dec 13, 2013 - 10:17am PT


"those who do the work have no more of a grasp of how to describe experience than a turtle"...

Good line...

I like that one...

LOL!!!...

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 13, 2013 - 10:19am PT
With regard to meaning:

life is tough; too often it is a horror show. Think about what it is. Life requires you to consume other life in order to live and your body and mind are telling you your life must be continued. Throughout existence on this planet right now at this moment most creatures are consumed with killing other creatures in order to survive.

Loved ones die; friends die. They leave you forever and where have they gone? At any moment your own life might end… and that ending might include the most horrible kind of suffering. Throughout history for most human beings life has been hard and short.

It’s like the old Woody Allen joke, “the food here is terrible and the portions are much too small.”

To find meaning in all this is to find a means of escaping the anxious expectations of being. Even if that reconciliation to life is the notion that it somehow isn’t really real; it’s all a game. To ascribe meaning is to give sense and to mediate against the existential.

The world’s cultures are full of the most creative reconciliations to existence from east to west.

I like Nietzsche’s the best. For all his blathering, I like this little gem: “…for it is only as an aesthetic experience that existence and the world are eternally justified.”

To go on topic for a moment: I think that’s why I got so interested in climbing. So much beauty and so much sublime experience. To stand on some ledge somewhere and look out across a range of peaks is a fine reconciliation.

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