Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 18901 - 18920 of total 22722 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
MH2

climber
Jan 14, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
I think MikeL will back me up when I say I never do anything exactly as proscribed.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 14, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
so the subject of electromagnetic effects upon the mind is brought up, and a huge amount of noise is generated to derail any valid discussion and put on the defensive those with any interest in it

what does that tell you about the subject

i never tried spoon bending, have no interest in such parlor tricks, and very much doubt being able to do it myself without coaching from a professional slight-of-hand artist

Jan is no phony and i am interested in what she said about MRI effects on her consciousness, having experienced something like that myself

there is a lot of literature out there on this general subject, and as WB points out, it is challenging to sort out between observable scientific effects and disinformation and woo woo

is there any possibility we can address this subject without going bananas

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 14, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Ive been in lots of MRI tubes.

DMT
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 14, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
The notions of mind as reality and material nature as illusory and that the perfectly subjective nature of all experience as a result of something beyond our sensory experience seems to require an answer to the really simple question: what is the experiencer?

If the experiencer is just mind and experience as well then your caught in an inescapable solipsism. And the great mystery becomes: why is there any materiality at all or more importantly, why is there an illusion of materiality?

Why isn't the attempted escape from the material world simply another effort at escaping from what is perceived as a "sorrowful" reality?
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Jan 14, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
"[] people believe in conspiracy theories to explain, for example, power relations in social groups and the existence of evil forces. Different types of conspiracy theories have been distinguished, ranging from those merely based on a hunch to ones backed by evidence; from localized, single-event conspiracies to pervading universal phenomena; and from those based on cunning malevolence to benevolent, angelic conspiracies.
The evolution of conspiracy theory has been traced by some scholars to its psychological and socio-political origins. Proposed psychological origins include projection; the personal need to explain ďa significant event [with] a significant cause;" and the product of various kinds and stages of thought disorder, such as paranoid disposition, ranging in severity to diagnosable mental illnesses. Similarly, socio-political origins may be discovered in the need of people to believe in event causation rather than suffer the insecurity of a random world and universe."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

You guys need a doctor, not a discussion.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Jan 14, 2014 - 01:46pm PT


LOL!!!...

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 14, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
i am amazed at the amount of mental noise that can erupt from some of you that is off topic and distracting

so there is no shortage of evidence regarding real physical phenomena that we may not directly perceive with our senses, but can be detected by instrumentation

we can detect electromagnetic fields by several means

the question is can we detect their influence on consciousness

and is there a related field that might explain consciousness, perhaps in resonance with other types of fields

and if so how can it be detected

we know at least that brain activity can be detected electromagnetically

so it seems that process could be reversed
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 14, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
we can detect electromagnetic fields by several means

the question is can we detect their influence on consciousness

You said you detected an MRI effect on your consciousness? Describe that effect, please?

DMT

for my bonafides... I have had a couple of MRIs done on my head and neck. Another on my upper chest. Another on my lower abdomen. Another on one of my knees. There may have been others, can't recall off the top of my head.

The MRI magnetic fields had no discernible effect on my consciousness. I entered the tube saddled with a variety of anxieties, I will admit. But try as I might I could not even imagine that the MRI altered my consciousness in any way at all. And I tried.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jan 14, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
You said you detected an MRI effect on your consciousness? Describe that effect, please?

And please explain, after answering the above question, how you can tell the difference between the MRI having a low-level atomic/magnetic effect, and it having a higher-level emotional effect, and how you can tell the difference.

Was it the color of the light bulbs in the emergency room that made me feel like I was about to pass out, or was it the stress of the dislocated shoulder? How could I ever tell without repeating the experiment with only the light frequencies changed?

In other words, what people say is pretty much meaningless because of the complexity, and typically absurd nature, of their personalities. Who cares about anecdotal evidence? It doesn't mean anything.

Dave

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 14, 2014 - 02:27pm PT
never mind anecdotal effects

my question was whether real effects are detectable

it seems that brain scan or electroencephalograph sensors would be overwhelmed by the MRI fields
Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Jan 14, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
This thread should be titled BullSh#t vs Science
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Jan 14, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
"Many physicists would agree that, had it not been for congestion control, the evaluation of web browsers might never have occurred. In fact, few hackers worldwide would disagree with the essential unification of voice-over-IP and public/private key pair. In order to solve this riddle, we confirm that SMPs can be made stochastic, cacheable, and inter posable."

Just like this!

Hard to dismiss.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jan 14, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
MH2: By 'conceptualization', what do you mean? All conscious thought?

If you see objects and believe they are real, substantial, concrete, serious, then that means a conceptualization has been reified. Scratch any "object" and you'll find a concept underlying it.

Thinking happens much of the time for me, MH2. But I try not to take any of it very seriously, either. Thinking is like air: it's all around me. I'm trying to relax. You can have a thought go through your head [sic], but that doesn't mean you need to to stop and get engaged with its content. You can just watch the thought as a thought pop into existence and watch it pop out of existence as well. Everything comes and goes like this in experience: sight, sound, tactile sensation, taste, smell, and thought. None of them are exactly real, concrete, or serious, but they occur, and they have impacts on one's being to the extent that one takes them seriously and concretely.

DMT: I think you're making things up, wholesale fabrications of nothingness.

The opposite. I think what's been happening to me is a de-programming from reifications. It's a form of self-immolation. The fabrications are deconstructing themselves--into what? Hmmm, maybe into a form of "nothingness."

Andrzej: I am still not sure what you are looking for. Is it your soul?

I don't know. It feels more and more like I'm lapsing into a state of automatic pilot. I'm trying to disengage from the feeling of control in my life and letting life just happen. Part of that experience for me has been letting go of the need for achievement and objectives.

For example, a few days ago, I was reassembling the plumbing under a sink in a really cramped area, and it was cramping my neck and tiring my shoulders holding up big wretches and getting fittings to work in an upside down position. I relaxed for some reason, and all of a sudden, it was like I was watching a movie. My hands and arms were moving, muscles still hurt, but I was not directing the movement of arms, shoulders, wrenches, or fittings--and the feelings were not exactly "mine." The overall feeling was like flying or floating in a dream. I believe I somehow simply noticed that things were completely taking care of themselves (that I never WAS controlling anything to begin with). I'm not going to say that there weren't wrenches, fittings, arms, or hands, but they were just appeared as images to me, and everything was just humming along on its own. It was pretty cool.

Locker: One need not KNOW, if one is in the habit of making up stories...

Right. I think the feeling or sense of understanding that one can get from a story is not conceptual. The experience of empathy is not conceptual. No experience is conceptual unless it is made into one. The same holds true for emotions and instinct. The very feeling or "understanding" of those are not experienced as concepts, unless made into concepts. The felt experience of laughing is not conceptual, but a laugh can lead to various conceptual understandings.

Largo: The rational mind can make the whole thing nice and tidy:

All too true. But that's not what I think anyone can see when they look closely at "the whole thing" in any field of vision or consciousness. Not much in experience looks in the least regard as neat and tidy.

MH2: I think MikeL will back me up when I say I never do anything exactly as proscribed.

Ha-ha-ha! :-)

Paul: If the experiencer is just mind and experience as well then your caught in an inescapable solipsism. And the great mystery becomes: why is there any materiality at all or more importantly, why is there an illusion of materiality?

There seems to be an infinite supply of mysteries to go around, Paul. Your choice of this one might expose a perspective (values, ideologies / beliefs, intention, etc.).

I mean to be friendly here, so I should agree with you and say that they are all interesting in a puzzle-like way. But I think placing any problem, question, or issue onto a paramount pedestal is probably more indicative of the seer than the seen (with all due respect to you, of course). But something truly remarkable happens when those questions or calling-out begins to fall away. I have found (ever-so partially) that an openness, spontaneity, sense of freedom, and irresistible engagement shows up for me. Ha. I admit that I might be talking myself into these non-perspectives, but there is also a sense of self-verification that comes with it. (It's not anything that I can prove to you.)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jan 14, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
Reza Aslan graduated in '95 from SCU, and has written about Islam. He has a new book out entitled, "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth." Aslan was a Christian, but is now a Muslim. The following exempt is from a presentation he made at SCU in October of '13.

-------

Audience Member: Iím just starting out at the Jesuit School of Theology in the masterís program. I donít think I ever really heard how the academic you has perhaps affected the you as a person of faith.

Reza Aslan: It goes back to this: My job as an academic is to study religion, not faith. I recognize faith. I take it seriously, but itís not my field. For me, faith is ineffable. Itís indescribable. If you are talking about God, you are talking about something that is by definition beyond everything. All religion, as far as Iím concerned, is a language made up of symbols and metaphors that help us to express what is fundamentally inexpressible, to ourselves and to each other. Whatís important is to not confuse the language for the thing itself, not to confuse the religion for what the religion is expressing. The Sufis talk about religion as a signpost to Godóthat itís not an end in itself, itís a means to an end.

Paul Crowley: As a scholar, youíre putting that in bracketsóbut to the practice of your faith, the Quran is not just any old text. That would certainly be true of Christians as well. One way or another, they understand it as a humanly mediated, inspired word of God.

Reza Aslan: Look, I believe that the Quran is divinely inspired, but I also believe Abbey Road is divinely inspired. I believe that God is in constant communion with his creation. As a Muslim, I donít believe that there is any separation between creator and creation. I think that they are one and the same. People say, ďOh, well, then you donít believe that Jesus is God. Thatís why youíre not a Christian.Ē No, youíre misunderstanding me. I donít believe that Jesus is exclusively God. I believe that everybody is God, because I refuse to acknowledge that there can be separation from God; that if you exist, you exist only insofar as you share in the existence of the only thing that exists necessarily.

Paul Crowley: Very Sufi.

Reza Aslan: The way I express that thought is through the symbols and metaphors that are provided by Islam. Iím not a Muslim because I think that Islam is more right than Christianity. Itís not. Iím a Muslim simply because the metaphors that Islam provides for God, humanity, the relationship between creator and creationsóthey make more sense to me. I appreciate these other metaphors and Iím familiar with them. When I say language, I mean that quite literally. I speak Spanish and French and Arabic and Persian, but I think in English. In the same way, I speak Christianity and Judaism and Hinduism and Buddhism, but I feel in Islam.



http://www.scu.edu/scm/winter2014/features.cfm?utm_source=scu&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2212&b=439&c=17987
Sketch

Trad climber
H-ville
Jan 14, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
20,000

Good job, everyone.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jan 14, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
20,001
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jan 14, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
"In psychology, the subconscious is the part of consciousness that is not currently in focal awareness. The word subconscious is an anglicized version of the French subconscient as coined by the psychologist Pierre Janet, who argued that underneath the layers of critical thought functions of the conscious mind lay a powerful awareness that he called the subconscious mind.[1] Because there is a limit to the information that can be held in conscious focal awareness, a storehouse of one's knowledge and prior experience is needed; this is the subconscious" (Wikipedia)

It's not in the subconscious mind , it is "in" the the most developed neocortex . . . (Ward)

This seems unnecessarily argumentative and beside the point IMO.

Ain't this fun? (JL)

That's the spirit!

I think Jan's comment about spoon bending was meant as a humorous or slightly sarcastic aside when discussing those military programs. Jan?
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 14, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
So I have been doing the 30 second test I mentioned earlier numerous times since i brought it up. i noticed that the first experience is an in breath; Ward must of tried the experiment becasue he said it was just a deep breathing exercise. I noticed the same thing, the breath became the front and center experience. Every time I tried it a quick in breath was the first thing that happened; but i noticed I didn't pay as much attention to the out breath so I started to also pay more attention to the out breath. This is interesting because then it become cyclic.

This morning at work there was typical office conflict about timely submittal of time sheets ( the plaque of consulting business) and there was lots of I and You internal dialog going on for me. So I was curious how the 30 sec test would go ; I noticed alot of energy tension in my head and then it calmed down some.

I have been getting more and more curious about pacifism in the sense of not escalating a personal confrontation but rather to witness it and attempt not to escalate it. No need to one up someone else; and noticing the temptation to act out but not doing it.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 14, 2014 - 04:32pm PT
DMY: You said you detected an MRI effect on your consciousness? Describe that effect, please?

It happened a few years ago while I was working at Johnson Space Center in Houston. I often spent weekends skydiving at nearby Rosharon TX. I made a solo exit just before the champion team 'Anomaly' and experienced an incredible view between two tall thunderclouds. It was like zooming down into the Grand Canyon, only three times deeper. The wind had shifted and blew me under canopy away from the landing area. I had to do a hook turn into a small goat pasture. It seemed like this was going to be fine until a long bare twig sticking out from a tree snagged my chute and collapsed it while I was still well above the ground, dumping me very hard on my ass and badly straining my back. (That twig is in my hand right now, recovered from inside my chute during repack.) I made it back to my car with some help from the Anomaly team, but basically couldn't get off the floor of my Houston apartment for weeks. The MRI was prescribed to check the level of damage to my back.

I was already in something of an altered state from constant pain. During the MRI I seemed to be in sort of an energy bath, like a magnetic hot tub, not really attached to my body, but still associated with it. The pain energy was still there, but in a detached sort of way. The effects lasted for quite a while after the MRI, giving me some relief.

It is interesting to me that if we take a cell phone or a watch into the MRI, we don't expect it to fare well. Yet our brains and nervous systems are very sensitive bio-electro-chemical devices; and we think they go through this MRI experience with no side effects.

Hmmm...
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jan 14, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
. . . and we think they go through this MRI experience with no side effects (Tom)

I've wondered about this, regardless of studies.
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