Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 7, 2013 - 07:10am PT
Ugh, enough with the cut and pastes.

There is no chance. Probability is partial, artifactual, and artificial. Probability looks like something that exists, but it doesn't. It's just a way of talking and seeing things. If I make-up some story (like chance), I can convince you it exists because it sounds reasonable to say such things, and it highlights. But that's no difference than taking a highlighter and underlining a few words in a text. I've made something stand out. That doesn't mean much of anything. It's just a discrimination. All discriminations are artificial (cause-and-effect, correlations, myths, stories, daydreams, worlds, fantasy, illusions, etc.).

There is only one fact. THIS--which is right in front of you at this very moment--is IT. You can call IT experience. There are many terms for IT. IT is indescribable and ungraspable, yet IT is fully knowable.

(i) IT is the dharmakaya, which is akin to open space; the dharmakaya is an open field, the basis of everything; it is emptiness. (ii) You have full and total awareness of IT (sambhogakaya); no matter what you see or sense, what you are aware of is simply your own awareness. This makes awareness tricky and illusive, layered, yet simple. (iii) In the union of awareness and emptiness arises infinite creative energy (nirmanakaya) which creates unending apparitional displays that we take as real objects.

These are things that you can suss-out and see for yourself if you're curious at any time, but you'll need to quiet down.

The daydream, as rsin puts it, is reality; everything is IT. The trick is to realize that the three kayas are one and inseparable. A full realization of that (to see it and live it) is awakening. The open field of all things is your total awareness, and IT is unendingly energetic and creative. IT is what is throwing up the displays in front of you. You are IT, and you are becoming increasingly aware of IT, your awareness, and the field that creates the space and energy of your awareness.

All the rest (correlations, cause-and-effect, fantasies, myths, emotions, etc.) are simply ways of talking and of parsing something that can't be parsed or talked about.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 7, 2013 - 07:19am PT
Horse sh#t. I know that there is a Lower Skinner distributary channel running along the east side of Stillwater Oklahoma at a depth of 4100 feet.

I KNOW IT.

If you want maps, cross sections, etc. just ask.

You guys don't want to follow the rules because it pokes holes into your sacred cows.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Dec 7, 2013 - 07:24am PT
There is no chance. Probability is partial, artifactual, and artificial.

There's a good chance you're probably wrong.
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2013 - 07:38am PT
You guys don't want to follow the rules because it pokes holes into your sacred cows.


Hell, there are a number of posters here who understand these rules well enough to use them to buttress their fairytale arguments.

You guys are just plain crazy, you're make absolutes saying everything is fairy tales and then imposing "rules" which you guys break all the time.

Along with ...... making absolutes that modern material only science is the only truth.

That's another absolute you're trying cram down onto everyone's throat as an absolute.

You guys are just plain fuking out to lunch and pure crazy along with being oversensitive crybabies.

And you guys call yourselves big bad adventurer climbers???

Meh ...... pussies .....




BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 7, 2013 - 07:41am PT
Hmmmm. You are the one throwing a hissy fit like a little bitch, WB..
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2013 - 07:54am PT
I gave you the truth.

You're the one who cries every time you post that someone is not being how you want and need them to be .....
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Dec 7, 2013 - 07:56am PT
You're the one who cries every time

BASE104 is one of the most level-headed posters on Supertopo.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2013 - 08:00am PT
The only one crying here is WB
And with his victim like mentality, he seems to be threatened by us just talking about our reality and we are some how shoving something down his throat.
Pathetic

Keep up the good work Base and HFCS, citune, Fort, Malemute and the rest of the posse.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2013 - 08:13am PT
The is no real part of Zen that we Westerns like to think of when we call things: Zen Climbing, Zen Base Jumping, Zen Skiing, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
These are complete Western Bastardizations of the word Zen.

When you are doing Zen, you are quietly meditating, which is far different than being "in the moment", "here and now", "time slows down" state of mind while doing some activity.

There are proper terms for it, Zen is not one of them.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 7, 2013 - 08:28am PT
The question that we all struggle with is:

How do you know that you know?

I fell asleep last night before the end of the Thunder/New Orleans game. I woke up and when I logged on I checked the score. We won.

Now right there are several huge pickles.

A) I wasn't physically at the game, so how do I know that the TV broadcast was real?

B) How do I know that Yahoo Sports got the correct score (as well as Sportscenter on ESPN)

To get down to the nitty gritty, I don't know who won. I do know that there is snow outside, because I am looking at it. But then again, how do I know that I'm not hallucinating?

There comes a point where it is easier to find some "practical" sense of knowing. For instance, from experience, I trust ESPN a lot more than my prayers, which don't always come true. I really feel for poor Go-B, because I was raised a good Christian boy myself. When I became old enough to think for myself, I found religion full of holes. There is really no way to know.

Could it be true? Yes, absolutely. Could it also be true that a monkey will fly out of my ass today? Yes, although extraordinarily unlikely.

I posted Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Toolkit because it is the best summary of how to know that I've ever read.

A good example is Werner and I exchanging ad hominem attacks, which are null. They also make you look like an idiot. So no attacking the arguer.

Oklahoma enacted a "religious freedom" law in order to put the Ten Commandments on the lawn of the Capitol Building. Now the Satanic Church is proposing to build their own commandments right next to it.

You can't make this sh#t up.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/12/06/oklahoma-satanic-temple-piece/
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 7, 2013 - 08:58am PT
The is no real part of Zen that we Westerns like to think of when we call things: Zen Climbing, Zen Base Jumping, Zen Skiing, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. These are complete Western Bastardizations of the word Zen.

When you are doing Zen, you are quietly meditating, which is far different than being "in the moment", "here and now", "time slows down" state of mind while doing some activity.

There are proper terms for it, Zen is not one of them.


One more time someone who doesn't believe in meditation is telling people who actually do it that they don't know what they're talking about. Interesting.

I suppose the Japanese also don't know their own culture when they say Zen philosophy was at the heart of everything from the code of bushido for the warriors to the tea ceremony, ikebana, and Japanese traditional architecture and gardening?

Or perhaps your statement was meant in the worst tradition of conservative Japanese zenophobes who think that foreigners will never be clever and unique enough, like the Japanese, to really understand Japanese culture. And that Japanese culture is so complex and unique it can't be applied outside Japan to anything else?

It's amazing how much some people dislike anything connected to a religious tradition so much that they will deny the physical, material culture that evolved from it.

Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Dec 7, 2013 - 09:03am PT
Does Werner have a brain tumour?
I've read that he used to be a nice person.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 7, 2013 - 09:03am PT
Jan,

I think that that is a harsh reaction. Simply because there are centuries of tradition behind something, that doesn't make it truth.

You must acknowledge that if you are to have an open mind at all.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 7, 2013 - 10:00am PT
Zen has a long tradition of how it is practiced, lest one (as someone pointed out here) simply invented their own practice. There is a sangha, or meeting place, a teacher or teachers, and a process, depending on the tradition you are studying. You can and many do practice as lay people (I do) with no Buddhist name or affiliations and limited Oriental accretions. Someone claiming to do Zen sans all the traditional aspects of one to one and group instruction and testing, practice, sangha and retreats is strictly delusional. It's like saying you playing football by tossing the pigskin up in the air and catching it your own self. The reason people like Jan go off on calling this Zen is that she understands the anthropological and communal significance of practice, and when that practice is shorn of all the humanity and one attempts to reduce it to a protocol, you lose the very power of it. So when people come back and cry fowl, saying we are accusing them of "doing it wrong," the truth is that they were not doing it at all. They say it takes a village to raise a child. It also takes a village to wake the hell up to our own limited POVs. The cowboy style of the lone meditator is really just some fella sitting still. That's not Zen.

-

And BASE said:

Largo,

You have to always be aware of correlation equaling causation. It is a common mistake.
-


There was no mention in my run down of the bio professor about causation. From a staunch materialist POV, everything was caused or shaped by antecedent physical causes, says this belief system - except the origin of every thing, which was sourced by no thing at all. Exactly WHAT went bang! and how the threshold from no thing to stuff was ever crossed, as well as the infinite qualities involved or believed to be involved - the word is out. I believe you lost your way in believing the bio professors observations were in sum ans substance saying that correlated components of a system "cause" this or that. But let's jump back to biofedback and see how to sort this out. The basic premise is pretty easy if you stick with it.

One of the basic biofeedback techniques is galvanic ski testing, but you can also learn a whole lot by just buying an indoor/outdoor thermometer and taping the small sensor to your finger. The good digital units will give you near real-time feedback on the temperature so you can see what mental and physical adjustments cause the temp to rise, which corresponds to relaxing the smooth muscles in your core, which causes you to relax and increases the temp at your finger. People who are uptight and cannot relax cannot raise the temp at the sensors site. But with enough practice one can learn what works and through breathing exercises and relaxing the mind and putting your awareness in a certain place, and you can get that temp up there remarkable high - experts can approach 106 degrees. But you really have to practice to achieve that level of control. Anyone who wants to spend a very interesting half hour can try this exercise and learn remarkable and subtle things about how our thinking effects our physiology. You can see the results immediately - re: biofeedback. The measurement is fed back to you immediately. In this case, a temperature.

What the professor was saying was that the measuring device (the thermometer) was doing a remarkable job of measuring and feeding back biological information, but this biological information did NOT measure the real time sentience that "caused" the biology (temp) to go up and down. That sentience was not detectable by way of the measuring device. Only the effects of that sentience on the body in the form of temperature.

Once could move on to measure the electrical brain activity believed to be a correlate to sentience, but you'd also be measuring the physiology, NOT the sentience, which is NOT the same thing as the biology. One can measure electrical activity in various biological things and it never adds up to sentience, so the saying goes that electrical activity and sentience are not the selfsame things. Any school boy can see this.

This all goes back to the original truth that we have various measuring devices for biological objective functioning such as blood pressure and temperature and the feedback from these devices are pretty much the last word. There is no extra dimension to blood pressure that is totally lost on the measuring device. However with sentience, taking an EEG or MRI as an example, we get a wonderful stream of objective real-time data back from the measuring/imaging devices, but that data is not IDENTICAL with the sentience we associate with it.

A staunch physicalist will insist, for example, that a skin test is not simply measuring temperature, but also the sentience believed to be behind it. The problem is that sentience itself is not limited to objective functioning, and so long as people insist on such untenable beliefs such as "sentience IS biology and ONLY biology," the essence of "mind" will remain like cold fusion - always ten years off.

Trying to approach all reality as a thing has limitations which a mechanical interpretation of the mind cannot brook, with the only fallback position being "God." Another Naturalist (NOT supernatural) position will likely emerge soon enough to help fill the gaps. Few will see it coming, and many will insist, right up to when it bursts onto the scene, that following anything but a standard mechanistic approach is a "waste of time."

JL
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Dec 7, 2013 - 10:21am PT
There is no chance. Probability is partial, artifactual, and artificial. Probability looks like something that exists, but it doesn't. It's just a way of talking and seeing things.

Absolutely hilarious....



It's amazing how much some people dislike anything connected to a religious tradition so much that they will deny the physical, material culture that evolved from it.

Good point.... but you're not talking about anyone here. You're talking about these people:

Trick or treat: Is yoga fit for kids?

ALBUQUERQUE - A New Mexico legislator has voiced concern that stretching during school physical education activities is really yoga and could introduce children to Eastern religions.
The discussion occurred as Albuquerque elementary school teacher Ann Paulls-Neal recently spoke to a legislative study committee about student health and childhood obesity, the Albuquerque Journal reported.

During a meeting on student health and obesity of the Legislative Education Study Committe Rep. Alonzo Baldonado, R-Los Lunas, said he was concerned that parents were not being informed that their kids were stretching on a mat a.k.a. yoga.

Baldonado, a Christian, says he has nothing against Buddhism or Hinduism, but said yoga could be seen as a gateway to Eastern religion, according to the Albuquerque Journal.

“We have the authority, the charge from God, to raise our children as we see fit,” said Baldonado.

Ann Paulls-Neal, a physical education teacher from Albuquerque, was at the meeting to talk about student health, including obesity.

Though Paulls-Neal refers stretching and mat work as yoga, she said religion is not discussed or even mentioned in class. She said the reason kids stretch or do yoga is to increase flexibility and help maintain good health.

You are probably wondering why stretching would be such a problem for folks in New Mexico. Well, it seems Alonzo Baldonado, a committee member, thinks the stretching is in fact yoga, which he links to Eastern religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism. He is concerned that parents are unaware of this and that there is no way for students to get excused from what he thinks is a religious practice. In addition to being able to opt out of stretching, he wants alternative activities offered.

“Are we teaching yoga in public schools now?” he asked. “Are parents notified?”

Baldonado who is a Christian would not want his daughters exposed to such a thing. He insists he has nothing against other religions but admits that he believes yoga could be a gateway to Buddhism. Perish the thought. In an interview he said yoga is, “just not something we partake in.”

His daughters are on a swim team and when the coach uses yoga for training the girls opt out. “We have the authority, the charge from God, to raise our children as we see fit,” says Baldonado.

Unbeknownst to Mr. Baldonado is that swimming, as sport, became popularized by the ancient Greeks among others. It is possible that by participating in this activity his daughters could be exposed to some kind of Zeus-worshipping cult. I hope he pulls them out before it’s too late.

Deepening the mystery of this absurd way of thinking is the fact that Baldonado home schools his children. Why is he even on a public education committee? I’m sure his children will grow up to be open-minded critical thinkers just like their papa.

The purpose of the meeting was to discuss student health and combating childhood obesity. Ann Paulis-Neal, the school’s P.E. teacher said that she runs a series of stretching exercises and mat work, but fell short of calling it yoga. She insists that no mention or discussion of religion ever takes place. According to her the only purpose of the stretching is to improve flexibility and maintain good health.

Imagine the gall of this teacher trying to make her students healthier and more flexible. Come to think of it, yesterday as I was watching football, I saw dozens of professional football players stretching as well. Could it be the NFL is secretly trying to promote anti-Christian religion? I am the coach for a youth hockey team and I will immediately get rid of the pre-game stretching, lest I be accused of advocating the non-violent tolerant views of Eastern religion.

The story actually gets better because Baldanado is a New Mexico state representative and chairs the GOP House caucus. So for everyone that thinks I only give democrats a hard time, I give you this asswipe. I’m not the only one that thinks this guys is off his rocker, Patrick Davis or ProgressNowNM.org had this to say about the incident:

“Of all the things a legislator could focus on to get our public schools back on track, Rep. Baldonado chose this one as his most important. Even for conspiracy theorists, this one seems far-fetched. How he thinks a rudimentary stretching routine meant to improve physical health could lead students to join a religious cult is beyond me.”
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2013 - 11:02am PT
One more time someone who doesn't believe in meditation is telling people who actually do it that they don't know what they're talking about. Interesting.
Jan
I don't believe in meditation?? WTF?
Why wouldn't I believe in meditation!

You must of taken my post completely wrong, I guess my writing style needs a lot of work

so you do think that there is Zen Base Jumping, Zen climbing, Zen Free solo, Zen Skiing, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Zen Tea Cup Collecting, and another million Zen "activity of some sort" catch phrases that are a Real Part of the Japanese Tradition and the Practice of Zen.

Please tell us what part of the Japanese tradition supports these activities
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 7, 2013 - 11:12am PT
Baldonado is guilty of the amazingly common impulse to dumb down the world and insist that one thing is another - exactly. I have pointed out the materialists' untenable position of believing sentience is the very same thing as biology. Baldonado is saying that strecthing is the very same thing as Hindu or Buddhist religion, and that stretching is a "gateway" to eastern cults, whereby, ultimately, strectching imperils Christianity.

Who elects such folk?

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Dec 7, 2013 - 11:24am PT
Christian reactionaries, obviously.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 7, 2013 - 11:53am PT
Base-

I did not say anything about the truth claims of Zen. I was merely remarking on the style of arts and activities which utilize its philosophy which in fact comes from meditation.

Dr. F.-

Much is lost in translation it seems, even between English speakers, so sorry if I misinterpreted your comments.

What I meant was that there's a lot of fake and uncomprehending imitation in every culture (the Japanese are in fact masters of this), There is also the real transfer of ideas, style, and spirit between cultures. I think we see both valid and fake imitation of Japanese culture in America, including Zen.

It seems to be a unique characteristic of the Japanese however, to have a large part of their self identity involved with the notion that they are so complex that no one not born Japanese can understand them and their culture.

Many times I have seen them understand perfectly, an American speaking Japanese on the phone for example, and not be able to comprehend a word they were saying when they showed up in person looking like the gaijin they were, with the Japanese person repeating over and over "I do not speak English", while the American replied over and over, but I am speaking Japanese, please listen." Finally there is an aha moment and they can both speak Japanese.

Another time a friend of mine went to a party, speaking perfect Japanese at three different social levels, bowing, handing out business cards with both hands and the appropriate level of bow depending on the status of the speaker etc., and several of his Japanese friends came over and said to him, "please just speak English, you are so Japanese, it is making us nervous."



BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 7, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
^^^Where else can I hear stories like that?^^^

Well, no matter what anyone else might think, I enjoy this banter. Good company. It would make a hell of a good party.

I talked to a wolf for five minutes once. Damn thing stood there 15 feet in front of me. Can't make that stuff up.
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