Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Boulder climber
Dec 25, 2013 - 12:05am PT
Re: What BASE104 said


But Merry Christmas!


Hebrews 1:3
Dec 25, 2013 - 09:18am PT

Hark! the Herald Angels Sing

1. Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the new born King,
peace on earth, and mercy mild,
God and sinners reconciled!"
Joyful, all ye nations rise,
join the triumph of the skies;
with th' angelic host proclaim,
"Christ is born in Bethlehem!"
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the new born King!"

2. Christ, by highest heaven adored;
Christ, the everlasting Lord;
late in time behold him come,
offspring of a virgin's womb.
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see;
hail th' incarnate Deity,
pleased with us in flesh to dwell,
Jesus, our Emmanuel.
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the new born King!"

3. Hail the heaven-born Prince of Peace!
Hail the Sun of Righteousness!
Light and life to all he brings,
risen with healing in his wings.
Mild he lays his glory by,
born that we no more may die,
born to raise us from the earth,
born to give us second birth.
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the new born King!"

DISCOVERY, David Jeremiah
DISCOVERY, David Jeremiah

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

On such a day as this

God sent His Son

to give us His Blessing

and vanquish the curse

so that we could be His

Christ the Glory of Heaven

Forever and Ever Amen!

...Merry CHRISTmas! :)


Social climber
Dec 25, 2013 - 09:44am PT
Credit: glanton
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 25, 2013 - 10:12am PT
Merry Christmas to all.

Without qualification.

Cheers too

ps. Ain't it a GREAT DAY???!!!!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 25, 2013 - 10:17am PT
I grew up celebrating this christian holiday
that was borrowed from an older time
when our ancestors more closely tracked the sun
because they didn't have LED lights, duh

I rememeber my times as a child
feeling the wonder and joy of the season
and a little bit of greed too I guess
my great generation parents while poor
liked to indulge their kids because
when they were young in turn
they did without

I am blessed in this world of people
for I have daughters growing and grown
healthy and smart and pretty and wise
and when they were young I too in turn
helped pass on that Christmas spirit

We never tried to indocrinate our kids
to any one perspective
we did not preach our own bias to them
but rather explained as best we could
with honesty but just as important
with a gentle hand and a fair mind

We did not kill the santa claus
nor the christ, nor buddha, nor priest
Nor did we celebrate the raising
of one god before another
We didn't make all these things
the center of attention at all

So that my kids in turn
when their times comes
will pass on the Christmas spirit
relaxed and smiling and with open heart
Feeling not that they must
cast doubt on others to bolster their own'
But rather say Merry Christmas to all
And smile in their own hearts first.

Dr. F.

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2013 - 10:25am PT
This Country was based a Secular government
The founding fathers were non-religious liberals reveling in the height of enlightenment era
The enlightenment era was called that because that was the first time some humans rejected Religion as the source of control and knowledge, and they were seeing the world through the new eyes of science, logic and reason.

The Right Winger Taliban (Christians) have been chipping away at our great Separation of Church and State from Day one

Now they have even brainwashed a large percentage of our populace that we are a Christian Nation, Under God.
Sad, and causing more and more problems every day

Bush's wars were partly a crusade, and part of a mission from God, he said so.

And who won those wars, not America, the only winners were the Military industrial complex, the media, and the contractors that all cashed in.
all that death and destruction for nothing more than war profiteering

Divide and Conquer
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 25, 2013 - 10:48am PT
I was in Florida on business some years ago. We were hungry and since my colleague was feeling froggy with his expense account we went to a Ruth's Chris, down Palm Beach way. Crowdewd, we decided to eat at the bar. Once there I took beer while my bud took wine. There was a guy next to us, wearing a fine suit. He looked like he had once been fit and perhaps even able to take care of himself in a fight. But he'd gone fat and sleek, his body over come by his own suceess. We watched the bar tender decant some special wine for him. "$600 a bottle' she lip synched in our direction. Apparently this guy was a regular and she knew to appl;y the proper pomp and circumstance to the affair. With great attention to detail she served him his fancy wine.

He started talking to us, about wine. Noticing I drank beer he ignored me. I think he figured I was my colleague's bitch. Sorry to be crude but that's the vibe I got. I didn't care, I'm not threatened that way. I can face many fall lines.

My work mate deprecated his own wine, even though it was a very nice Napa valley label. "Here, try THIS" said the fat cat at the bar. He gave Alex a half inch in the bottom of a fresh glass. None for me it was like I wasn't even there.

Alex too went through the pomp; swirling, sniffing, tasting, swallowing, he knew the drill and drank lots of fine wine in his day too. He said it was the best wine he'd ever tasted and maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't it didn't really matter. Alex did say,

"But I could never afford a wine like this." And the fat cat replied with smug satisfaction, not even looking in our direction,

"The war has been very good to me."

I turned my back on him.

Dr. F.

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2013 - 11:49am PT
anyone doing the lumosity program for personal brain development?

Dec 25, 2013 - 11:58am PT
This Country was based a Secular government
The founding fathers were non-religious liberals reveling in the height of enlightenment era

The first two lines in the most ignorant post I have ever read. And to think people believe this crap.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
Prove yourself wrong for us please

It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Dec 25, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
Prove yourself right stupid. You made the post.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
That's what they taught us history class, I guess you never had one

What documents were inspired by the Age of Enlightenment ...

curiosity.discovery.com › Culture and History › World History‎

The Age of Enlightenment, which was so popular in the 18th century, had a ... Because many of our country's founding fathers were heavily influenced by the ...

American Enlightenment - World Map

http://www.mapsofworld.com › Map of USA › American Revolution‎

Adopted by the Founding Fathers, Enlightenment ideals became the vision for modern-day America, where these ideologies are deeply rooted in the nation.

How did the Enlightment ideas and philosophers influence the world ...

answers.yahoo.com › All Categories › Arts & Humanities › History‎

Dec 23, 2006 - BUT there is much misunderstanding of how and how much Enlightenment ideas affected our founding fathers, esp. their thinking related to the ...

The Founding Fathers and the "Enlightenment Thinkers": Part 1 ...


Jun 17, 2011 - Uploaded by bRizzle2009100
History teaches us that the founders were greatly inspired by what we would call the "Enlightenment Era" or ...

Foundations of American Government [ushistory.org]


In turn, the Enlightenment ideals of liberty, equality, and justice helped to create ... The ideas of 18th-century philosophes inspired the Founding Fathers to revolt ...

The Founding Fathers were deists, Not Christians

Deism and the Founding of the United States, Divining America ...


Feb 22, 2008 - These Enlightened deists capitalized on two critical developments in ..... David L. Holmes, The Faith of the Founding Fathers (2006) makes a ...

Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Enlightenment thinkers, under the influence of Newtonian science, tended to view the ..... Other notable Founding Fathers may have been more directly deist.

American Enlightenment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to Deism - Deism[edit]. Thomas Paine. Both the Moderate Enlightenment and a Radical or Revolutionary Enlightenment were reactions against the ...

The Deism of America's Founding Fathers vs The Christian Right ...


by Everett Tucker - in 2,638 Google+ circlesThe positivity of the Age of Enlightenment and the previous American experience is gone today as the negativity of the Christian Right reigns supreme.


Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 25, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
Since the days of Melchesidec, God has won every war.

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 25, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
Some of these responses are typical of our society that has been bought in to the rewritten package of history of our nation's Biblical heritage. This is easily refuted by going back to the ORIGINAL documents of our founding fathers, not the distorted opinions of historians who regurgitate the writings of "progressive" authors with an agenda of atheism. I have provided you an attachment with such ORIGINAL quotes by the SIGNERS AND FRAMERS of our Constitution that readily debunk these distorted (yet standard) views of the convictions which birthed our country. Atheists love to cite Thomas Paine, omitting the fact that he was in the very small minority (about 5%) of those who did not have a strong Biblical faith. They are less apt to quote Robert Paine, as cited below:


I desire to bless and praise the name of God most high for appointing me my birth in a land of Gospel Light where the glorious tidings of a Savior and of pardon and salvation through Him have been continually sounding in mine ears. 87

I am constrained to express my adoration of the Supreme Being, the Author of my existence, in full belief of His Providential goodness and His forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state. 88

I believe the Bible to be the written word of God and to contain in it the whole rule of faith and manners. 89

Consider also the following quote (similar to many in the attachment) that confirm a TRINITARIAN view of the Godhead: Roger Sherman SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; “MASTER BUILDER OF THE CONSTITUTION”; JUDGE; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; U. S. SENATOR I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. That the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him. . . . That He made man at first perfectly holy; that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever. I believe that God . . . did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer. . . . I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to Him, joined by the bond of the covenant. . . . I believe that the sacraments of the New Testament are baptism and the Lord’s Supper. . . . I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgment of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment. 107

God commands all men everywhere to repent. He also commands them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and has assured us that all who do repent and believe shall be saved… [G]od… has absolutely promised to bestow them on all these who are willing to accept them on the terms of the Gospel – that is, in a way of free grace through the atonement. “Ask and ye shall receive [John 16:24]. Whosoever will, let him come and take of the waters of life freely [Revelation 22:17]. Him that cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out” [John 6:37]. 108

It is the duty of all to acknowledge that the Divine Law which requires us to love God with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves, on pain of eternal damnation, is Holy, just, and good. . . . The revealed law of God is the rule of our duty. 109

True Christians are assured that no temptation (or trial) shall happen to them but what they shall be enabled to bear; and that the grace of Christ shall be sufficient for them. 110

“The volume which he consulted more than any other was the Bible. It was his custom, at the commencement of every session of Congress, to purchase a copy of the Scriptures, to peruse it daily, and to present it to one of his children on his return.” 111 These and MANY other quotes may be found at http://www.wallbuilders.com/. It is common practice among such wishful thinkers to say that the First Amendment presents a case for freedom FROM religion, IN SPITE of the fact that the Constitution prohibits any interference in "the free exercise thereof".

Mountain climber
Dec 25, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Merry belated Christmas. About 4 months late ...

Yeshua's birth-date in fulfillment of Prophecy:
September 11, 3 B.C. (The Jewish Rosh Hashanah -- The Jewish New Year). Isn't HaShem amazing? He knows what he's doing. :)

Rev.12 (KJV)
[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[2] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
[15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
[16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.




Well, we can still celebrate Yeshua HaMasahiach's (Jesus the Christ, the Messiah) birth, no matter what time of year. Perhaps the Jewish wise-men from Babylon from Daniel's school of thought (a region of exile and diaspora) in the East came to worship him around this time of year. He was a toddler when they came bearing gifts. They knew the prophecies and they were excellent observers of the night sky. They were astronomers.


Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 25, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
only a self righteous fool would believe "god" picked sides throughout history's conflicts

Praise God Norton for your disagreements and misunderstandings...glory to God! Jewish Sanhedrins with your attitude crucified the Son of God, and God fed their hardened hearts to make the gift of salvation available to the whole world. You can continue to crucify the Christ, but in the end, just as then, God gets the glory...hence God wins ALL wars.


Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 25, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
John 16:33 KJV

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

HE has Won!

The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Dec 25, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Won what?

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 25, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
the world.

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 25, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
It doesn't bother me that truthdweller believes the biblical creation myth. Being ignorant of that isn't exactly a deal breaker in life.

However this:

I see you don't like some of the very foundations that America was built on "F"... The Word of God and the military. I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post, or go express your dislikes openly in another country.

Is bullsh#t. If you are going to ponder WWJD? The obvious answer is that Jesus would have never carried arms, and when they came to kill him, he did not fight that one, either.

Whether you believe in the religious part of Jesus's life or not, the New Testament is almost unique among religious texts. There is very little violence or intolerance in the new testament. It is about love, tolerance, and respect. All of these are great qualities, and even though I know I don't measure up, these are values that I don't regret learning during my younger church days.

The notion that God admires you standing your post with a weapon designed and carried by a person trained to kill, churns my stomach.

That is why I kept pushing the button on the book of Leviticus. In that very short book (you can read it in less than an hour) is an amazing amount of violence and punishment for bad behavior. I never could handle the old testament.

Genesis is the first chapter in the bible. Earlier than Leviticus. If Leviticus is roundly dismissed, then I see no reason to dismiss the creation account in genesis, which is pathetically full of holes.

If you just take that part as allegory, and then move on to the meat of the new testament, that seems like the truest path to me. The creation myth isn't important. You can still say that God created the universe, you will just have to add that it was very complicated and took billions of years.

I've always thought that getting hung up on the creation myth as a waste of time. It isn't the important message of love and tolerance.

We have a separation of church and state on purpose in this country. It is really the only practical way to go without becoming a theocracy.

Here is an example: Oklahoma passed a state law that somehow allowed the republicans to place a copy of the ten commandments on the capitol lawn.

Only a couple of years later, the Satanic Church has placed an application to put their own version of the satanic commandments alongside the Chritian ones.

Seriously. From a legal and constitutional standpoint they must be allowed. Does anyone like it? No. Not even the backsliders.

Better off to keep church in church.
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