Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 18101 - 18120 of total 22396 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 17, 2013 - 02:36am PT
Moosedude
By electrical and chemical stimulations of a brain, we can induce various feelings that are indistinguishable from the "real" feelings. Thus, it is the brain that creates those feelings rather than the other way around.

I believe this prolly about as much as you believe the bible.
And I call it a big fat untruth. Do ya get it?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 17, 2013 - 02:39am PT
At least moose's assertion can be proved / disproved in a lab.

Have you read the Koran, blublocker?

DMT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 17, 2013 - 02:48am PT
Atleast?
Do you believe you have love for your mother? Or do you need a lab report?

I have read quite a bit of it. Jus to get a better understanding of who's taking over the world.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 17, 2013 - 08:53am PT
Yes. Yes. No.

My turn - is the koran the word of god?

DMT
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 17, 2013 - 10:41am PT
MD:

I'm not trying to be difficult, but of course I may be to you. Sorry if that's how it's coming off.

When you say that you think of things or see things differently than a stereotyped group of people, it seems to be me that you are making an assumption about how a group of people think of things or how they see things or feel. That's all. (Does this language seem condescending to you?)

I would not dispute that brains exhibit electrical activity. I don't dispute that the events seem to happen prior to thoughts registering (or being reported by subjects). I think that description presents a conundrum for anyone who thinks they know their own thoughts and who or what they are. It can encourage some deep thinking about what consciousness and awareness is. It might even encourage someone to sit and watch for themselves what's happening. Maybe not, though.


I don't understand where you are thinking that a person (me? others?) is invoking something supernatural about cognition. Could you provide a fuller explanation on this point? What's "supernatural" to you? Would it be anything that is not explained by theory and data?

What I have been questioning are the following:

1. What are the differences between feelings that are "real" and "induced?" Are the distinctions relevant to consciousness?

2. Are feelings real or aren't they? How do you know? Are they electrical impulses?

It would probably seem to most here that once one has "explained" cause-and-effect sequencing between brain activity and a subjective experience (a feeling), there's nothing else to explain.

This is the fundamental issue between the subjective and the objective: which is real, what is it, and how do you know? Does one depend upon the other? You seem to be saying that the subjective arises from the objective. Another person could say that the only way to know the objective is through the subjective (Largo's argument); one can go so far to say that the objective is the workings of the subjective.

Experience is something that no one can doubt, but no one can seem to describe or really pin it down. Everyone knows their own experiences, but they are somehow intrinsically indescribable. (What is the taste of sugar to one who has never experienced sweetness?) Are experiences real, or aren't they? How would you know? What do we mean by "real?"

Most folks in consensual reality believe that physical objects (via conceptualization and measurement) fully explain or ARE subjective experiences. However, conceptualizations, abstractions, theories are not quite real, either. They are simply mental tools and frameworks that we create and use to manipulate and predict events in our world. (Moreover, if physical objects ARE or account for subjective experiences, then aren't subjective experiences meaningless or illusions?)

Either view or perspective has thorny issues that are challenging to get around. If you can see one set of problems, then you should be able to recognize the others on the other side because they both exhibit the same epistemological concerns, just in different ways. What is real, and how does one know?

The application of rational thinking and orientation to measurement should be applied equally to both issues if one cares about consistency, wouldn't you think?

Would you think I would be invoking the supernatural if I were to say that these issues present a mystery?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Dec 17, 2013 - 11:04am PT

"This is the fundamental issue between the subjective and the objective: which is real, what is it, and how do you know?"...


Run as fast as you can HEAD FIRST into a cement wall and then get back with me on how much of a difference it makes "Knowing" or not...


Reality is what it is...

REAL...


LOL!!!...

rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 17, 2013 - 11:26am PT
Why invoke supernatural, then?

Because a lack of the supernatural implies that we are just meatbots, and the meatbot brains, ironically, cannot accept this possibility. To believe that one is just a meatbot is to accept that there is no deeper meaning to life. Suicide comes next.

To accept God is easy. To accept evolutio,n and the concept of us being nothing more than very complex computing machines, is beyond hard; it is impossible for up to 97.9% of the people on the planet.

That's why he will invoke the supernatural. It is in his nature to do so.

Dave
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 17, 2013 - 11:34am PT
Our brains model reality. So if the model is wrong we manifest it by making big mistakes. Walking off a cliff. Hearing voices. Going left when we say right. Legs won't move. Whatever.

The model tries to grow and self-correct - that's called 'education.'

And those other brains around us, we communicate with them. They really help to refine that model too, help us correct its course.

It must be continually corrected or we'll be in big trouble.

We humans do have a collective - in our languages and cultures. We try to imbibe our lessons to others, each in their own measure. We communicate. That communication itself may be the god yall are looking for?

It is the primary external factor aside from direct experience. Other animals can't do this as effectively, though higher primates do have a good level of social correction going on.

I can't see MikeL's model. He can't see mine. (yet)

But we can help each other correct our deficiencies in our interpretations, refine our models and go about our businesses without walking off a cliff unawares.

You're on belay brother MikeL.

DMT

ps. for some reason that term 'meat brain' irritates me! Must... let... go.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Dec 17, 2013 - 11:38am PT


"Because a lack of the supernatural implies that we are just meatbots, and the meatbot brains, ironically, cannot accept this possibility."...



Maybe your Meatbot can't...

But mine can!!!...

"we live, we die"...

and I personally have no problem with it...

What we have is fine by me...



Don't need any bullsh!t to slow my roll...

;-)




EDITED:

So obviously the fear of death is what brings all this about...

Sure there will be many here that will make other claims...

But then there is REALITY, and like it or not...

we DO in FACT...

DIE...



If we were to live on in ANY other way...

then it would not be DEATH...

and frankly, that simply isn't the case...



EDITED:

Or was that Shirley???...




BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 17, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Hmmmmm.

Blueblocker,

I read Leviticus recently. I was searching for that line in the Bible where it flat out says that a man lying with another man is an abomination.

Yep. There it was in Leviticus. I found the rest of that book interesting because it is basically a set of rules on how to live, worship, etc. Pretty much none of those rules is followed today, even among jews. I don't know of any animal sacrifices going on these days, anyway.

So you are telling me that the rules set forth in Leviticus can be ignored? Simply because the rules applied to man during that discrete period?

If you are going to pick and choose which parts of the old testament to believe, then why all of the fuss over evolution? The bible is clearly wrong when it comes to the origin of not only humans, but the Earth, the Sun, the planets, and every other object in the universe.

I can't fault those who wrote those parts of the bible. They not only did not have telescopes, they had a very limited knowledge of mathematics.

Phew!! I'm sure happy that I can choose to ignore that part. I thought I was going to hell over it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 17, 2013 - 04:37pm PT

So you are telling me that the rules set forth in Leviticus can be ignored? Simply because the rules applied to man during that discrete period?

Correct! Basicly the first five books were written for the jews. We are all Gentiles. And it's not about picking and choosing what to live by. The crux is keeping everything in its proper text. And that's only achieved by referring to the entire bible.

In a nutshell, the Old Testament is coined "The Law" and it proclaims as being only a shadow of what was to come. The Messiah, or Christ. Who we know as Jesus. God established the law in order to prove to mankind with his sin nature he cannot abide by the law. And that we are not worthy to be in the presence of a True and Just God. But the Glory of Jesus The Christ is He came and through His sacrifice we are all redeemed of our sins. Not our sin nature, for we are all hypocrites and backsliding sinners. But if we can humble ourselves and acknowledge the Creator. Jesus will blot out our sins with His blood, and they will be forgotten forever! Sounds pretty supernatural right? Way more mystic than creating the universe in 6 days. I don't think it's so much ours to reason out how, but why.. Anyone with a sober reasoning mind and an open heart can surely experience a line of communication with God.
I KNOW it to be true myself, and I've seen it in others.

BTW, listening to NPR today. Scientist are now predicting the earth to be 5 bill. yrs old instead of 4. Their argument is that everything could not have evolutionized in only 4. Have you heard of this?
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Dec 17, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
Their argument is that everything could not have evolutionized in only 4. Have you heard of this?


.....ummmmmmmm



no?

The age of the earth has nothing to do with how long life has taken to "evolutionize". Earth's age is based on radioactive decay of uranium isotopes in zircon-bearing rocks of earth's oldest crust as normalized to carbon chondrites.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Dec 17, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
Et tu, Jgill? I don't know anyone who enjoys being told what and how they think or feel (MikeL)


. . . while mystics apparently just want to supplicate themselves in the wonder of it all (jgill)


"apparently" : seeming to appear, as to others.


Happy Holidays!
illusiondweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 17, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
My turn - is the koran the word of god?

A resounding, YES, the little "g" god of this world.

Throughout the Bible, God makes it clear that He is God, the ONLY God, and not god.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 17, 2013 - 05:34pm PT

Earth's age is based on radioactive decay of uranium isotopes in zircon-bearing rocks of earth's oldest crust as normalized to carbon chondrites.

Maybe?

Is that not predicted by our understanding of standard time, 24-7?

Could there not be a scenario where the planet spun at a different speed?
Or
The sun was bigger and more powerful?
Or
An asteroid hit us causing a smaller orbit thus giving us a little extra heat?
Or...
I don't think anything is written in stone. Stone ain't that solid anyway.
Best to keep an open mind and use science as a reference and not as truth.
Merry Christmas!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 17, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Best to keep an open mind and use science as a reference and not as truth.

Amen, over 2000 years ago, one man laid His 100% reputation on the line by claiming this, "I am the way, THE TRUTH, and the life..." He even encourages ANYONE to challenge Him on this, in which not one man (mankind) has been able to prevail:

"Produce your cause,saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons,saith the King of Jacob.

Let them bring them forth,and shew us what shall happen; let them shew the former things, what they be,that we may consider them,and now the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.

Shew the things that are to come hereafter,that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good,or do evil,that we may be dismayed,and behold it together.

Behold,ye are of nothing,and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.

I have raised up one from the north,and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon morter,and as the potter treadeth clay.

Who hath declared from the beginning,that we may know? and beforetime,that we may say,He is righteous? yea,there is none that sheweth,yea,there is none that declareth,yea,there is none that heareth your words.

The first shall say to Zion,Behold,behold them: and I will give to Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings.

For I beheld,and there was no man; even among them,and there was no counsellor,that,when I asked of them,could answer a word.

Behold,they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion." - Isaiah 41

So, Amen to the unbelievers, taunters, the profane, revilers, and persecuters!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 17, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#335769
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 17, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
. . . while mystics apparently just want to supplicate themselves in the wonder of it all (jgill)

Is this what you really believe people here are telling you? People want to "supplicate" to a wonder?

Really? Seriously.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 17, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
Tuesday,December 17,2013

David Edwin Hall at 3:36 PM

Merging Mercy

“Show us Thy mercy, O LORD, and grant us Thy salvation. I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for He will speak peace unto His people… Surely His salvation is nigh them that fear Him that glory may dwell in our land. Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other” (Psalm 85:7-10). “By mercy and truth iniquity is purged” (Proverbs 16:6). “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ” (John 1:17).

We’ve heard our Savior’s invitation To rich and poor,to old and youth, To celebrate His great salvation That merges mercy with His truth.

Now hear as God the Lord will speak Of righteousness that kisses peace; This is the union we must seek, For God’s own justice cannot cease.

The mercy God can now afford Cannot deny His righteousness, Yet through the cross of Christ our Lord, He bore our curse that He might bless.

Behold His truth with mercy merged! Behold His law now satisfied! Behold iniquity thus purged! It was for this our Savior died!

The law which God engraved in stone Could only charge our souls with sin. Salvation came through Christ alone; His cross has ushered mercy in.

We thank You,Lord,for what You did To bless us without compromise! Your grace and truth have not been hid From souls Your mercy justifies.

Receive our praise,Lord Jesus Christ, For merging mercy on Your cross When thereby Your were sacrificed To save us from eternal loss!

We fix our eyes on You above And on the harvest fields as well, That we may speak,Lord,of Your love With mercy merged that saves from hell." - http://quiettimepoems.blogspot.com/2013/12/merging-mercy.html?m=1
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 17, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
DMT:

Everything you point to in your writing, you infer. That's ok I think, but I don't think you know most any of it indisputably. Most of everything you say is a supposition. Most of it you've made up reasonably or heard it from someone else.

As for models-built-by-brains, it seems to me big and little things go wrong daily, hourly. The model that you refer to could possibly work even better if people didn't interfere with it so much; one could leave it to instinct, emotions, and myths. But how could anyone know which works better technically? For example, I don't think we're seeing a rising tide of births and longevity among scientists or logicians when compared to people of hardcore religious beliefs or faith.

And oh, BTW, I don't have a reality model. I'm trying to move away from all models. I tell the same thing to my students, too. My model is no model.

I try to say only what I know, which is usually confined to my direct experience. Most often I say that I don't know much of anything at all. I trust a sense of intuition, instinct, and a sense of no-action that seems to work for just about everything I find myself involved in.

I admit that I am confused or a little anxious these days not having big objectives or projects or goals that I'm trying to achieve. In some ways, my life feels a little lonely or vacant without pressing goals or objectives, but I suspect that's simply an old habit of being.

Pretty much everything is working out well for me, it seems. I figure that something or someone is at the switch of my life, but I'm trying not to make it me. You or others here might say that I'm in another reality, that it's all woo woo, or that it's working of the brain, but how would I know? Everything seems rather normal, but I could be in a dream or a coma.

So could you.

Have you ever woken up in a dream?
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