Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Nov 26, 2013 - 11:06am PT
revalidates for me that science has become a type of religion

Would you also consider sobriety "a type of intoxication"?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 26, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Like talking with a born-again Christian. Among practitioners there may be real differences, but to the discursive layman they sound the same, and I would guess you have to have some sort of need in your life to commit yourself to these practices.

...Gratitude that my sins are forgiven through what Christ did on the cross, paid the debt in full! :)
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 26, 2013 - 11:11am PT
That means that...
our whole solar system...
could be, like...
one tiny atom in the fingernail of some other giant being.
This is too much!
That means...
-one tiny atom in my fingernail could be--
-Could be one little...tiny universe.



Could I buy some pot from you?

-Animal House
WBraun

climber
Nov 26, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Cintune's article just revalidates for me that science has become a type of religion for some people which includes measuring people's worth against the received doctrine of the day.

100% agree.

He seeks out this consciousness both consciously and subconsciously due to his years of brainwashing himself with his poor fund of complete knowledge and misguided beliefs biased by pure scientism and speculation.

They get trapped in a deep rut branching out endlessly and circular but never getting out of the rut of being a victim of completely trusting only their own defective material senses ........
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Nov 26, 2013 - 11:37am PT
That article points out a case of mysticism trying to validate itself by way of a misinterpretation of science. The wu-wu clan does this a lot, but you don't see it the other way; no chemist ever said that the idea of molecular bonding was backed up by a carefully parsed passage from some scripture or other. So you have to ask yourself, who's co-opting who, and to what end?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 26, 2013 - 11:45am PT
I like it when you religious nutters play your martyr card. LOLs!

It goes like this...

White boy wants to be part of something, anything, bad. So he visits a church and gets that loving feeling. He becomes one, baptism, the whole 9 yards. Going to Church he will learn he and his faithful brethren are under assault from all sides... the whole world hates and is jealous of christians. Why? Because they are all going to hell.

So to be a christian in fat stupid America you have to adopt a bunkler mentality. It plays out here daily. Poor poor pitiful christians.

With this kind of bunker mentality its easy to ascribe the christian-haters with those very same motives they were warned about.

So you get these folks who pretend science is a religion, as if the very charge of religion renders science on a less secure footing.

Read that last sentence again....

They BEST criticism the religious can think of, the thing that truly undermines science, is to call it a religion.


Hey you hoohoo worshipers, think about that for a minute.

DMT
WBraun

climber
Nov 26, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
Human beings, all living entities and "all forms of life" is more than all the data that can ever be had by any material instruments.

Thus to understand the whole one must go farther then the part.

We are only part parcel of the whole .......

FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 26, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
Psychologists strike a blow for reproducibility- Thirty-six labs collaborate to check 13 earlier findings.

A large international group set up to test the reliability of psychology experiments has successfully reproduced the results of 10 out of 13 past experiments. The consortium also found that two effects could not be reproduced.

Psychology has been buffeted in recent years by mounting concern over the reliability of its results, after repeated failures to replicate classic studies. A failure to replicate could mean that the original study was flawed, the new experiment was poorly done or the effect under scrutiny varies between settings or groups of people.

To tackle this 'replicability crisis', 36 research groups formed the Many Labs Replication Project to repeat 13 psychological studies. The consortium combined tests from earlier experiments into a single questionnaire — meant to take 15 minutes to complete — and delivered it to 6,344 volunteers from 12 countries.

The plan for the Many Labs project was vetted by the original authors where possible, was documented openly, and was registered with the journal Social Psychology and its methods were peer-reviewed before any experiments were done. The results have now been submitted to the journal and are available online. “That sort of openness should be the standard for all research,” says Daniel Simons of the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign, who is coordinating a similar collaborative attempt to verify a classic psychological effect not covered in the present study. “I hope this will become a standard approach in psychology.”
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 26, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
Right, be it human bodies, galaxies, universes, the strong atomic bond, even the Veil Darkly - to discover the limits of those things one must exceed them.

This is something well known in science.

And yet? Every complex everything breaks down to more simple parts. Werner you often make the point that its all god. (the universe). Those are my words too but I get the impression you hold that everything we see touch or do is part of god.

Study the parts and you study god. Why would you object? What's the harm in discovering the speed of light, for exampler? Does it matter to the speedoometer that god is enforcing the speedlimit? Is it an insult to your god's name to call it the Theory of Relativity? Isn't that just another name for god? Didn't you say that?

Ergo, Ed, Chiloe and other scientists ARE DOING GODS WORK.

Right?

DMT

DMT
WBraun

climber
Nov 26, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
Why would you object?

Who's objecting? Not me. I'm 100% for science and always have an will.

It's the root of complete knowledge.

You completely misunderstood Jan.

She said "TYPE" she didn't say it was a religion per sec in complete.

Religion has to be based on science if not it's pure speculation.

Modern science rejects any science beyond the gross material senses .....
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Nov 26, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
This leads me to the article recommended by FortMental on the measurement of intelligence which he purported to illustrate that the measurement of intelligence is now biometric and scientific. It's title was The Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence, the Ashkenazi being the Jews who settled in Germany and later Poland and Russia, as opposed to the Spanish and Middle Eastern Jews. While I have no problems believing that Ashkenazi at the present time are more intelligent on the average, and find the idea of measuring intelligence with studies of the physical brain and how it functions, to be intriguing, this article does not prove its case.

In fact, even a cursory inspection of the literature reveals that although there is a lively debate on the topic, there are two opposing factions on the subject - those who believe that certain hereditary diseases like Tay Sachs are connected to higher intelligence and others who think that the high number of genetic diseases the Ashkenazi are subject to, result from their small numbers and inbreeding over many centuries plus persecution. Their long history of persecution which resulted in many Jewish deaths over the centuries, including we presume, the less intelligent, and the Jewish elevation of education as a supreme value for both genders, would seem a more likely explanation than severely debilitating diseases.

An enlightening comparison along these lines would of course be the Amish who suffer an even higher rate of genetic abnormalities and share with the Ashkenazi a small founder population, but not their history of persecution or love of education. We can also look forward to seeing whether Ashkenazi become less intelligent over time now that genetic testing, contraception, and a desire to be rid of Tay Sachs, has almost completely eliminated it from the Ashkenazi gene pool. Somehow I doubt it.

Beyond that,the article contains many basic assumptions which have long since been discredited in discussions of intelligence and its measurement. In fact, there's hardly a sentence in that article that hasn't been the subject of controversy in the past. One example that leaped out at me was the attribution of intelligence in Ashkenazi to money lending and financial calculations. How stereotypical is that? It also speaks to gender bias since only the males were involved in those activities.

While it was fashionable for many years for male anthropologists to attribute the rapid evolution of human intelligence to male hunting behavior, it was eventually realized that intelligence is found in both genders, and therefore the issue must be more complicated. Attributing the intelligence found in both Jewish men and women to the efforts of the men alone is just more of this same outdated idea.

What is most remarkable however, in an article discussing causative factors, is the only passing reference to centuries of intense persecution. Perhaps the fact that the authors work for a Christian university had something to do with this? Likewise, it was never mentioned that the present day Ashkenazi are only a remnant of their original population, given six out of ten million of them were killed in the 1940's. The ones who survived are no more representative than the current day Native Americans are of the preColumbian Indian population. One would expect by the way, that those who survived the holocaust were on the average more intelligent or at least more canny than the majority.

In short, the study of intelligence, even when trying to create a positive image of the people studied and the study of intelligence in general, has once again been unable to avoid simple cultural pitfalls.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 26, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Werner, if by 'gross material senses' you include the electomagnetic spectrum then I agree with your post above, completely.

DMT
WBraun

climber
Nov 26, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
Anything material.

When modern science gets near what can be acquired beyond the material senses they are shut down by the limitations of the material world.

Thus they can not measure that which is beyond the finite although every living entity knows the infinite is there .......
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 26, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
If you can't measure the one you love honey
measure the one you're with
measure the one you're with

One of the cool properties of human intelligence is to make inference using incomplete knowledge. We all do it; scientist, layperson, preacherman, pauper. We take bits and pieces and presto quicko don't take your eye off my hand magic, the brain manufactures reality and our minds form picture or make a conclusion.

A bit of movement, a hint of color, a tense sensation, perhaps the wisp of a smell... OH! Its a tiger in the elephant grass!

Or its God in the Waves!

Or its 'oh light must have special properties!@'

Our minds do what they must - assemble pictures of reality based on incomplete knowledge.

Don't fault us for what we MUST DO. Its how our brains are wired. Now me? I'm not convinced your ancient 10,000 year old astral travelers weren't just some filthy dirt baggers high on peyote and looking for a handout from gullible passers by. In fact I'm fairly convinced the latter is closer to reality. But your free to help me paint a different picture!

Cheers
DMT

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 26, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Cintune's article is simply another rant by a fundamntal physicalist. Nothing new. And I agree with the bulk of it.

Where the author ruins his own game is in engaging the long-standing effort to provide an observer (he calls it a detector etc.) that lies outside of consciousness - like the absolute clock that lies outside of physical reality.

All of these folk try and root out the observer and consciousness by way of a brute physicality they believe "creates" sentience. What's more, and probably more numb-skulled, is the conviction that any view but their own is a "God of he gaps" kind of wuwu bunch of gibberish. This is called intellectual narcissism and psychologically is the same as a religious nut claiming exclusive on the truth, everyone else being deluded.

The poor guy sounds sane enough and the data adds up in a superficial way but in terms of being a conscious person, he's operating almost entirely in what Jung called "the shadow," and has placed virtue on being there.

He said:

"I have pretty much stopped trying to convince people they should try zen practice because most people think if their life situation changed their "problems would be solved." Or else "that does not sound like fun to me."

In both cases (which are true to a remarkable degree IME), note that "most people" speculates and forms opinions BEFORE conducting the experiment (bad science by any definition), which can only be undertaken by way of direct experience, seemign that zen is experiential, not a merely cognitive drill. And trying to convince someone to do more than the cognitive drill only exposes fear and (fill in the blank). A waste of time for sure.

JL

JL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 26, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
MH2

climber
Nov 26, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
note that "most people" speculates and forms opinions BEFORE conducting the experiment (bad science by any definition), which can only be undertaken by way of direct experience, seemign that zen is experiential, not a merely cognitive drill.


This is called intellectual narcissism and psychologically is the same as a religious nut claiming exclusive on the truth, everyone else being deluded.



Heed your own words.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Nov 26, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
The poor guy sounds sane enough and the data adds up in a superficial way but in terms of being a conscious person, he's operating almost entirely in what Jung called "the shadow," and has placed virtue on being there.

He said:

"I have pretty much stopped trying to convince people they should try zen practice because most people think if their life situation changed their "problems would be solved." Or else "that does not sound like fun to me."

This quote is by PSP.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 26, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
My comments were about two different things. The first addressed that fundamentalist in the Cintune article.

The second was per the guy who commented on the uselessness of trying to get people to look at another perspective - in this case, the Zen perspective. All we get is a raft of reasons to conserve the status quo. My surprise is that this attitude would be so prominent on climber's web site, rumored to feature folks who enjoy the unknown and new challenges.

Oh well . . .

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Nov 26, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
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