Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 17981 - 18000 of total 22344 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 15, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
I credit, largo, that you're sincere in your description of the selfless experiences. 100% sincere you experienced a selfless state that is not of the material world.

I've seen Shakers wiggle on the ground vibrating from the Holy Spirit. Tongue Speakers uttering what to me sounds like gibberish that they claim are the ancient languages of angels. Now some of those people I'm inclined to think of as charlatans. I've enough experience myself here in the material so to speak, not to buy just any ole bag of sh#t someone says is fertilizer.

Nawmsayn?

But I also know from personal experience here on planet earth, that many, not just a few but many... Are 100% sincere that their experiences are real. That the immaterial hand of god shook them . Or angels breathed words through their mouths in languages that... Hmmmm... Oddly enough no one else seems to know. That's weird. When you have two people, standing in the same group mind you, suddenly uttering different unknown languages you have to wonder... Don't the angels like talk to each other in the same tongue?

So I'm still inclined to charlatan, except, there are so many! And I personally know these people, I grew up with them. It's a puzzler. I guess schizophrenia accounts for a small percentage of the them but what are we left with?

Scores of people, thousands if not millions actually, who will attest with utter sincerity that these things happened because god or angels from beyond the veil darkly, have moved them thusly.

Now to me? Astral plane, the emptiness of one, god shaking, tongue speaking, divine inspiration... It's all like the same thing man. All of these good folks are tapping into the same thing. I hear it hear frequently enough and see it expressed in this thread from time to time; science and religion are chasing a the same thing.

Mmmmm, I dunno about that.

My problem is pretty simple... I have all these sincere people telling me of their experiences. I have nothing and I mean nothing in my own field of experiences that even remotely compares to this. Nada. Maybe I'm unplugged I dunno, welded to my gross material ass no doubt a stupid American. :)

That no two experiences of these honest folks are alike? Man that makes me suspicious. This astral plane, different for everybody? What in the hell does that mean? Now to be frank it sounds mental to me. This is the wholesale manufacture of thought and feeling by the individual brains involved. It's all in their heads by hook or by crook. To me that is the logical answer to account for the differences in experience.

No one seems to hook up with their bros on the astra plane. It seems we can't reserve 12b and 12c together and chat it up while we soar to other planets. Now I'm joking of course but seriously logic dictates... Occams Razor if you will, that the simplest answer is the one we all know is true... That speaking in tongues sh#t is all in their heads.

Or it's real and all the religious woohoo comes in with it. And I just can't accept it. "But you're not doing it right!" Dude they all say that. It's always the same.

That's my problem with this whole gig, this magic carpet stuff. No one in the history of our civilization has ever once presented any kind of proof in this realm or beyond, of this ... Extra dimension.

So I have to ask then.... Are those speakers of tongues and shakers and faith healers and such? In their sh#t real?

DMT
WBraun

climber
Dec 15, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
Why such trouble seeing that your self is made up of cells?

Then you would say "I body" not "My body"

The material body is not the self, .... EVER .... nor has it ever been.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 15, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Hello DrF!
Same back at'cha! I didn't nearly get to say to you all I wanted..
I guess we're going to get to see if ur wish of raising the minimum wage is the work of the devil or not? They've already raised every dish on the menus a dollar here in josh. Tell me again who it is good for if everything is more expensive? Was it ur government, the taxers?

Sorry wrong thread

Jus Play'in The Game!
BB
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 15, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
If you experience a selfless state, a state of pure experience, then who is the YOU if not that self aware entity. If you can somehow go past that state then you become something/someone else but there must be some cognitive entity there because without an experiencer of some kind who can know the experience? Neither would you have awareness of the experience nor could you communicate its goodness to others.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Dec 15, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
Now to me? Astral plane, the emptiness of one, god shaking, tongue speaking, divine inspiration... It's all like the same thing man. All of these good folks are tapping into the same thing (Dingus)


I agree. And each such "discipline" has its coven of "born-agains" telling the world how glorious their experiences are and what we are missing because for some reason we won't take up their practice . . . won't accept a "challenge" somehow equivalent to trying a climb.

The ongoing commentaries advocating the temporary absence of "I" cause my discursive mind to wonder what is so "bad" about one's self that it would seem necessary to diligently study under "masters" for decades to extinguish this sensation of identity. And, yes, I recall all the comments about egos causing wars, calamities, etc. So that's it? Those spending their lives meditating about world peace and harmony are removing themselves so that their perhaps unruly egos won't contribute to ongoing conflicts?

Just random, silly thoughts.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 15, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
I agree. And each such "discipline" has its coven of "born-agains" telling the world how glorious their experiences are and what we are missing because for some reason we won't take up their practice . . . won't accept a "challenge" somehow equivalent to trying a climb.


In my experience, conflating all of these things into one can of soup is a convenient thing the discursive mind does with whatever it does not grasp.
And it's entirely preposterous. The reason I have offered to sponsor people to attend retreats on this thread is not to recruit people to my brand of "religion," which is hilarious if you actually knew me, but rather, knowing perfectly well that no true physicalist would EVER take up the offer, I use that refusal to make clear the fact that said physicalist are not truly interested in anything but pure evaluating. But so far as lumping speaking in tongues with ZaZen, for instance, lets look at that whopper.

Imagine a person under expert supervision sitting quietly with their eyes open, watching their breath and training their mind to not wander and to be fully present and wide open, NOT narrowe focused or evaluating, neither moving toward or away form any experience. And imagine doing this discipline for as many decades as it takes for your attention to finally stop wandering till you finally have the mind control to be profoundly grounded in the immediate here and now, with no interpretations, the EXACT opposite of wuwu and states.

Next, go to a revival church meeting with some kook holding a gunny sack full of rattlers and speaking gibberish and explain to any sensible person how the strict discipline and mind training of the first person can possibly result in same thing as the dood with the snakes talking in tongues. WTF!

That is the same thing as saying that somebody doing alchemy and petroengineering are "drawing from the same well."

I don't for a second think anyone is seriously saying this is true, and if they are, their wonky beliefs have absolutely nothing to do, whatsoever, with the experiential disciplines I have studied and practiced.

Speaking on tongues? Really? That's what you think Mike and I and others have been suggesting?

JL
WBraun

climber
Dec 15, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
The "I" always exists eternally.

The impersonalists want to merge into the whole "I" and lose their individuality due to poor fund of knowledge of the complete whole.

The "ego" is none other than the individual self.

When the "ego" (self) falsely identifies with the material body then that is called false ego.

The "self" (ego) always remains eternally.

Trying to eliminate the self (ego) (individuality) is spiritual suicide and stupid. (ultimately can't be done anyways)

Individuality, ego and self are eternal and the source of consciousness .....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 15, 2013 - 07:35pm PT

Neither would you have awareness of the experience nor could you communicate its goodness to others.

Or it's badness..

Isn't experience there for conscious sharing? For self, along with anyone else who's able to peer in. And we all can share into almost the same experience (except physically) depending on our own individual experiences. But experiencing is generic. The emotional feelings that we attach to said experience is what's unique to each individual.

Dingus claims that speaking in tongues is in the individuals mind. Because in his experience there's so many Differences? But that's the beauty. God is meeting us in our own time and space. While we're on it, speaking in tongues hasn't as much power if there isn't someone else inspired to translate the language. In my experience some of it seems like fish sticks. But more than not the translation puts the hammer on the head toward the consciousness of the church that's praying. Having a particular word resonate the same meaning to every individual seems impossible. So what sounds like gibberish to you one minute may vibrate to the heart the next.

How is it that we can feel ruffled or mad when someone challenges our truths with theirs?
And how it makes us feel good when we agree on a fact. To the extent of feel'in even love in certain agreements.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 15, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
Hmmmmm. Nope! I don buy it sorry. All in your heads. Not all preachers seek converts largo. That's beside the point anyway because you don't like the company I suggests you keep lol. And blublockr they canNOT all be right. So that trashes your come backs.

Got anything else to rebutt my logical conclusion other than 'you're doing it wrong'?

DMT
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 15, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
The impersonalists want to merge into the whole "I" and lose their individuality due to poor fund of knowledge of the complete whole.

That's why God holds us individually responsible for what we do with His Son Jesus...

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
MH2

climber
Dec 15, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
The reason I have offered to sponsor people to attend retreats on this thread is not to recruit people to my brand of "religion," which is hilarious if you actually knew me, but rather, knowing perfectly well that no true physicalist would EVER take up the offer, I use that refusal to make clear the fact that said physicalist are not truly interested in anything but pure evaluating.


Can you think of any other explanation?
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
the color is much more of a purple
I need to do some adjustments on the new camera
WBraun

climber
Dec 15, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
no true physicalist would EVER take up the offer

Of course not.

They only seek a warm fuzzy feeling in relation to their physical body.

if they can't get that then they say it's all ..... bullsh!t

That's why they're so addicted to intoxicants ......
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 15, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
Just a little something to raise the question..

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 15, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
Dear DrF,
The color purple is jus perception. Doesn't matter if the colors pink, it would barely change the love I feel in looking at that Succulent portrait of the Succulent.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 15, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
Dingus
Ur musical notes are majestic! Isn't it funny how we can pick a hit out of the80's and correlate it so easy with experience? And even funnier, almost queer how all songs are written about emotion? And none devoted toward scientific fact. Maybe if they would have put a melody alongside Biology I would have gotten an A. Hmmmmmm!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 15, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
That's art, bro.

DMT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 15, 2013 - 09:15pm PT

The "ego" is none other than the individual self.

Werner, can you think of the ego as being the Propulsioner of who we are?

I'm Start'in to think ego is our paintbrush for the material world?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 15, 2013 - 09:18pm PT

That's art, bro.

Aren't facts artistic, but Concise?
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Dec 15, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
And imagine doing this discipline for as many decades as it takes for your attention to finally stop wandering till you finally have the mind control to be profoundly grounded in the immediate here and now, with no interpretations, the EXACT opposite of wuwu and states (JL)

No, I cannot.

At 76 I am happy I still have a small measure of intellect remaining; had I spent all those years degrading it I shudder to think of the possibilities!
Messages 17981 - 18000 of total 22344 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews